grappling

[7*mantiskid]

how much grappling is there in praying mantis? is it as great as jiu jitsu or weaker like aikido? i wanna learn the grappling part as well as ground fighting. i wanna know if there are chokes and attacks from the ground. just any similarities to jiu jitsu. plz input your knowledge, thanks

[MightyB]

PM has Chin Na and throwing, but if you're into guards, mounts, passing guards, sweeps (not in a traditional kf sense), Upas, elbow escapes, strangles, arm - neck- and spine manipulations -strangles - holds - counters - etc., then you're not going to find it in praying mantis. Real Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is what you want. Finding real BJJ is the hard part. BJJ has more fakers than praying mantis, and let me tell ya, PM has a ton of fakers and wannabees.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Mantis was created for survival not sport. The same close quarter techniques used standing up can be applied on the ground. The goal being to inflict pain and injury in order to gain control.

Others can speak for their respective styles concerning mantis ground techniques but mine consist of attacking the eyes, throat, fingers, groin and pressure points. Stuff that's not allowed in mixed martial arts matches. I stink at wrestling, don't like it much and I'm not all that strong. Easier to take out an eye or bust a few fingers. Preferably before you hit the ground.

[Merryprankster]

Round and round about this again?

IF you find yourself on the ground with a decent ie, slightly better than average high school wrestler, or a decent blue belt and he has an ounce of common sense, you're going to get *****ed if you try the eyegouge, throatstrike, fingerbreak, beg for mercy approach. I'm all for you never getting to the ground. I'm all for training the things you are talking about. They are effective and vital to self defense training. They are also never going to take the place of decent groundfighting skills.

That said, people who think "The same things standing work on the ground," usually haven't done much groundwork. While they DO work, they can't be applied the same way thanks to the difference in movement between standing and ground. The way of moving is fundamentally different, your points of structure are not the same, etc.

[carly]

you know what you are talking about.

[Merryprankster]

Carly,

It should be fairly easy to find a decent BJJ school near you. Go to MMA.tv if you are interested and poke around a bit.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Merryprankster
I'll have to disagree. Are you saying the only way to beat wrestling is with wrestling? Jui Jitsu with Jui Jitsu? I find it hard to believe that an average wrestler or Jui Jitsu student can beat the crap out of all the other arts. It's physically impossible to protect all your vital areas while at the same time attack your opponent.

I don't have any experience with someone attempting bodily harm where I had to resort to potentially crippling techniques against a wrestler or BJJ fighter. Have you? If not then it's all academic and personal opinion.

CQ techniques are applied when you clash (as in attempting a takedown), are in a small area (like an elevator), against a wall (similar to being on the ground) and on the ground.

Elbow to back of head (during takedown attempt)
Box the ears
Tear the ears (box, grab, tear)
Poke the eyes
Knee/foot to groin
Finger to hollow of neck
Strike to nerve in chin
Attack nerve under nose
Head butt to face
Shoulder strike to face
Pheonix Eye to armpit
Finger locks/breaks
Finger press behind jaw (under ear)
Biting (any convenient location)
Reach down and grab privates, squeeze, tear

None of which is legal in a sporting or friendly fight but effective when your life is at stake. Some do damage, others inflict pain or set up finishing techniques. This doesn't include the arm and wrist traps and locks (which are legal) found in many styles of mantis including Wah Lum. Get real, nobody is immune to all those attacks. Defending one area exposes another. Attacking also exposes vital areas. You could lose an eye well before acheiving a full mount position.

Sit on my chest for some ground and pound and I'll show you something you've never seen before - the other end of your *****!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Um, to get back to the original question I don't believe there is much grappling in Mantis although I'll let others speak up for their own styles. I believe I read some posts in the past where 8-Step claimed to have a bit of groundwork and grappling. Others may have some also but if that's what you're into then go with BJJ or other MMA type of school. You won't find a lot in the traditional arts.

Merryprankster
I don't mean to be adversarial since you did agree to a certain extent and I do agree with you to a limited extent. All techniques need to be modified to fit the particular situation whether it's stand up or on the ground.

Ha, just read your profile so I see where you're coming from. :)
BTW, what brings you to the Northern Mantis forum?

[carly]

Hi. No offense intended, but your reply to MerryPrankster was pretty unrealistic.
Not knowing how to use all of your body (grapple/wrestle) while trying to be a fighter is like training only your left arm or your left leg and ignoring the rest.
Add although I'm a Chinese stylist, I'd put put my money on a BJJ student over two guys armed with chi-packed Phoenix Eye Fists looking for the opportunity to poke an armpit:)

[mantis108]

I posted the following regarding build the ground game with Mantis. Now, it is not "traditional" but it can be done using what Mantis styles have to offer.

<<<Ground Game:

1. Break fall and rolling
2. Throws and reversals
3. Ground grappling tech.
4. Escape
5. Finishing moves

"To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

1) Break fall

Break fall is most basic skill in learning takedown. Most Kung Fu schools today are lacking in this area of training. Tainan Mantis showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills, which are to deal with the three ground positions.

Guard position - Leg raise
Side control - shrimping
mount - bridging

All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

[RE:] Upa drill (bridging and turn) in Judo or BJJ is similar to Tornado Kick, which I made a distinction from the Hurricane kick. Tornado starts on the ground (ie guard position) and up while hurricane kick starts in a stand up position (ie horse stance).

2) Throws and reversals

Quan (fighting form) such as the Dei Tanglang has planty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Lohan Gung can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspects of fighting.

We should also learn takedown from the three ground positions as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

[RE:] Kao Da is a great methodology in Mantis to work with throws, takedowns and reversals. It also teaches the counters to those things. I also recommand looking into Judo and BJJ drills of sweeps and reversals. They usually begin from the ground, which is a very smart way to train. That way novices can work with takedowns and reversals without too much problem (very low injury rate). This will help them to see the dynamics of "a fight" early in their training. In my program, I have both Kao Da and the sweep & reversal drills on the very first day. My observation and my students' feed back are consistant. It makes the Kung Fu experience very enjoyable while working hard on these drills.

3) Grappling Techniques

Mantis has plenty of this offered as stand up grappling. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of this, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

[RE:] The 8 shorts in Mantis certainly can apply well in an extreme close quartered combat situation (ie ground range) regardless of going for a knock out or submission hold.

4) Escape

This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one. If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can.

5) Finishing moves

This was brought up from the above posts. We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis. Hope I make sense here.

I could provide a drill if anyone is interested

[RE:] At the time I wrote this, the post was getting to long. Here I may add the following. IMHO a lot of the Kung Fu folks simply circumvented the whole ground game development issue by stating that all they need is the finishing moves (ie joint breaking, eye strikes, throat grab, etc.) Pain compliance tacts would be fine except that the reaction to those tacts is a highly uncertain variable. So it would be dangerous to assume that one would stop an intoxicated aggressor by breaking a joint or 2. Besides is the accuracy of an eye-strike 100% while under the effects of adrenaline rush? In other words many simply jump to the conclusion without having worked through the whole process. This is why the ground grappling folks being highly critical of the Kung Fu people's assumption of directly translating stand up grappling into ground grappling. But then again grappling is grappling whether one is stand or lying down. The same principles apply - everything has to be tight (all slacks taken up) and the flow of movements has to be very fluid. This really means that a program that has plenty of flow drills would help enhancing the understanding of ground game. I have been working on that towards that end with my Mantis.

6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allow you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear.

7) Climate training

Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That's will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.>>>>

Mantis108

[Merryprankster]

I saw grappling in the title.

Yeah, that post was pretty crappy, but I've done it too, so no blood, no foul :D

I'm not suggesting that wrestlers or BJJers will beat everybody. Look at what I've said again--on the ground, proper movement is necessary to success. Wrestlers and BJJers train that way of moving constantly. They also train (assuming they do a little fight training on the side) to be positionally dominant in ways that minimize exposure of "vital areas," and "weak points." A solid mount doesn't involve sitting on your chest. It also doesn't leave much in the way of weak parts exposed. I know because I've been on the giving and receiving end of both in fight training, and I know the angles are all wrong.

I was pointing out that experience matters. IF I get you on the ground, I have a much higher probability of making you my ***** than the other way round. By the same token, if you keep the fight standing, I'm likely to get mauled.

You can't take what you do standing, translate that to groundfighting, and just expect it to work well without feeling how the movements differ. What often seems like a good idea down there is a terrible idea.

It's a matter of becoming good at what you train for. If you spent 90% of your time figuring out how to make Mantis work on the ground, you'd probably be fine. But I'm willing to bet you don't do that.

[Frogman]

I did enough ground fighting to know that the last thing you want to do on the ground is panic. The BJJ guys I trained with would just wait for you to make a mistake and then quickly capitalize on it so fast it would be over, just give up it’s over. I saw two advanced BJJ students going at it one day for nearly an hour. Neither one giving up anything. Finally the instructor broke them up because he could not stand to watch two grown men roll around doing nothing for so long. One of the big differences between stand up fighting and ground fighting I think, is in a stand up fight you want to end it as fast as possible on the ground you wait for you opponent to give up an arm leg the mount… I prefer when on my back to pull my opponent in close not giving up striking distance and reducing their mobility. This also make it easier to roll. If they’re in your guard and you can roll them now your in the mount. The mount is one of the best advantage points, for many reasons and if you find yourself on the bottom end against a trained ground fighter your are in trouble.
I think the best way to avoid being on the wrong end of a technique is to recognize what your up against early which can also be a challenge since a lot of these guys will come in with a fake strike and then grab. I would avoid going down at all cost at this point. Chances are if faced with this tactic your opponent has ground skill.

RibHit
fm

[Frogman]

Side Note
I have heard it in the past that most fight wined up on the ground anyway. Look at the fighters… The best thing to do in a fit of rage with no training is to go NFL on the guy and well, then your on the ground. This all fights go to the ground analogy may apply in a bar but how often do find this to be the case if one or both fighters are trained in stand up fighting?

Speaking of the NFL
Go Bucs!!!

RibHit
fm

[BeiTangLang]

Something I have to ask a question about:
In our training on the ground, we do quite a bit of striking. As a comparison, do BJJers do this as well?

[Frogman]

It was my experience in BJJ that you strike when you can but it was not a focus point. I only trained there for a short time about a year but can say we didn’t do a lot of striking techniques. Most strikes were on approach, more often then not a fake and then from the mount. Generally we would finish with a joint lock. My instructor was Kerry King he is good friends with Rickson Gracie, it was a lot of fun but am a KF practitioner at hart.

RibHit
fm

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

carly
No offense taken. I always like to hear opposing viewpoints. It offers me the chance to re-assess my beliefs. However, chances are I won't concede until I get taken out by a wrestler or BJJ fighter that can keep my fingers out of his eyes. :) I've yet to see a professional MMA match where each fighter didn't have access to vital areas particularly the eyes. They put their hands on their opponents face all the time. And they're supposed to be the best.
You mentioned that you need to know how to use all your body. That's true for stand up fighting as well. What part do you use on the ground that you don't use standing up?

BTW, I'm not arguing against groundfighting skills or training. The more rounded your training the better. Granted a groundfighter has the advantage when he's in his element, but the assumption that you're a dead duck against a groundfighter only applies in the ring.

mantis108
Your concerns about the accuracy of eye strikes doesn't really apply here. There is no room to 'strike', you grab the head and press the thumbs into the eyes. If you can hold his head close to you so he doesn't have room to work (very common and highly recommended) you can easily attack some of the areas I mentioned earlier.

All techniques need to be modified depending on the situation. Environment, terrain, limitations like being against a wall, in an elevator or on the ground all require you to modify your technique to make it work. I don't understand why the gound is such a special area. Punches hurt and bones break whether you're standing up, on the ground, underwater or in a vacuum.

[yu shan]

Our source of Mantis Boxing (Taiwan) teaches take downs and ground work. Not taught in some Mantis Styles, why is this? It all goes to the ground folks! Would highly suggest getting familier with getting twisted up by our ground fighting friends. Talk all you want about a precision attack to vunerable area. Have you actually had any training in ground work? Doesn`t sound like it to me...Mantis has alot to offer! Yet again, something Wah Lum doesn`t know and has no idea. When are you going to open you mind and cross-train?

[Merryprankster]

A few points:

Hua, if I'm ever in the Orlando area, and I sometimes am, I'll shoot you a message so we can play. And I mean that. I'm not calling you out. I've never seen mantis, and from the sounds of it, you've not done much ground work. So I think we might be able to provide each other with some insights.

The ground is a special area because the way of moving is fundamentally different. The way you have to move your body in order to take advantage of the ground, rather than be restricted by it, is very different. Striking becomes far less effective unless you are on top (and your balance isn't being messed with) because your body can no longer back your shots up with the same kind of structure.

As an example, people have suggested, in the past kicking or kneeing a person from the BOTTOM of the mount. There's almost no force in this. I know because people have tried doing it to me. I have been heel kicked in the spine and kidneys while in somebody's guard, which hurt a bit, but was more annoying than anything. I've had attempted throat strikes and eye shots from guys who "wanted to know what I would do against 'x'" who promptly got armbarred or arm triangle choked for extending their arm too far or trying to reach across their body to reach their target. Knowing when and how to do stuff on the ground is just not the same as standing.

BJJ doesn't have to be about wait for a mistake, although it sometimes unfortunately is. It really depends on the person. I play a very active game, looking to finish. I'm always trying to force mistakes by being active looking for sweeps and submissions or positional improvements. At my school, we teach our MMA fighters to beat on people--We're just as happy if we pound the crap out of the guy as we are if they finish with a choke or a joint lock.

[MightyB]

I personally can't stand to hear "vital points, eye gouging, and ball grabbing" when people discuss groundfighting. Folks, it won't happen and it tain't going to work. Get out of the martial fantasy a bit. Remember Bruce Lee's saying "If he strikes me, I'll break his limbs, if he breaks my limb, I'll kill him". The BJJer who has you in his mount or knee on your belly (no way in heck would you be able to effectively mount him or put him in the guard with no experience) is in a position to really F you up if you tried any of that BS. You know how he'll stop you from that crap? It's called pummeling you into a bloody pulp. How the heck are you going to grab his nuts when he's punching the crap out of you for trying? And guess what, the only reason that there seems to be an opportunity for eye gouging in MMA events is because they are prohibited in MMA events. They are well aware of any of those supposed vulnerabilities in street fighting and they train accordingly. Don't think that you have some superior knowledge that they seem to be overlooking because you don't.

Enough ranting, but I feel better having said it. ;)

[carly]

to read what you say, which is the truth and reality in this case.
Well put. You really seem to know what you're talking about.

[Merryprankster]

I more or less agree with Mighty B. But I find that when I say something like that, I get something like "Oh, so you grapplers do 'iron eyeball," to protect from gouges....

So I stopped doing that as it seems counterproductive.

Might B forgot to mention that trying a nut shot on a guy who's knee on will get you armbarred, probably.

[carly]

all questions and doubts and theories about fighting grappler can be completely answered very easily, by simply wrestling with one. In my experience, they are only too happy to demonstrate their art.

[Merryprankster]

Carly,

It's a curse of our "Show me," mindset.

I mean, I came from a wrestling background. EVERY WEEK, I had to defend my spot on the varsity against people who wanted to take me out.

[carly]

I thought I was a knowledgeable bad ass myself when I was younger, and at colleg I was working out and met the college wrestling coach and his class - nice guys, allof them,a nd superb athletes.
As well as legal sport wrestling, they all knew the dirtier stuff as well, and yeah, in the nicest way possible, whenever I joned in with them when we shared a work out space, they kicked my ass over and over again on the mat. I have nothing but respect for wrstlers, and this was long before the rise of BJJ etc.

[carly]

I much preferred their open way of teaching, where no technique was secret, and where body weight was understood to count for a great deal, very refreshing in comparison to insecure martial arts practioners who haven't tested themselves and coem to terms with their abilitiesand weaknesses in themselves and their system.

[Merryprankster]

IMO, that "nice guy," thing comes from knowing you aren't invincible. I've never had a person who was actually a fighter (competitor) try to tell me they could do something they couldn't do. No hypotheticals.... just you can do it or you can't.

Yes, there is also the tacit recognition that attributes (weight, size, strength, speed, etc) matter.

Open arts improve the quality of the art and the practicioners much faster than closed ones. Secret knowledge becomes closed-mindedness very very quickly, and closed mindedness leads to umm... well, thinking you've got all the answers.

[carly]

Almost every boxer has had that confident, nice guy quality outside the ring too - none of the nervous posturing and fear of being challenged and losing face that unsure of themselves martial artist pea****s so often display.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Merryprankster
Give me a holler if you're coming down this way.

I may seem a bit closed minded by my posts but I really am open to other ideas and ways. With that said I believe the ****her you go into the other guys game the less your chances. If you're talking full mount well then you should've done something BEFORE you got into that position unless that's where you're comfortable. I hope nobody is going to say you can't stop a takedown. Unfortunately I believe the problem with the 'let's try it and see' approach is that nobody will make a serious effort to take out an eye in a friendly match. Are you (and others) that confident that you would risk it just to prove a point? How close will someone have to be for you to concede to the gouge?

Also, most of my suggestions require very little room so there's no need for striking distance to be effective. Grapplers are willing to take punches and knees in order to get position. What's makes you think someone won't eat a few punches to get the gouge?

carly,
Maybe that's my problem. I wasn't physically active as a kid, hated sports and gym class. I did have the hotshot class wrestler (on the team) show me a hold that he said nobody could get out of and I ****ed him off by getting out of it (he wasn't exactly showing me in a friendy way either). And I didn't even know what I was doing. Just natural to me. I did have one real nasty move used on me but it was practice so it was pretty much voluntary. I found out if you do it 'wrong' ( wrong in a match, right for the street) that it hurts and can be very damaging. That one I'll never forget!

I have great respect for grapplers/wrestlers, I love the sport (Pride, UFC etc.) but I don't see it as the Grand Ultimate of fighting. That's supposed to be Tai Chi :) but they can be beat too.

[carly]

I've seen lots of wrestlers who allow opponents to begin eye gouges or fishhooks in motuhs or noses just so that students can be aware that the techniques are possible and defend against them - a finger susually gets softly bitten or joint locked very fast, before any damage can be done to the eye.
I'd like wrestling to be less effective than it i s- it isn't my forte, but unfortunately it's really effective and can't be ignored.
It's also very very difficult to prevent an expert or large opponent from closing with you and taking you to the ground against your desires.