Iron Thread Fist???

[hongkongfooey]

what is iron thread fist in hung gar?

[Sho]

Tit Sin Kuen is considered to be the highest in rank most difficult form in Hung Gar. Techniques should be executed so that they are as hard as iron but as soft as a thread.

[hongkongfooey]

how is that possible?..to be hard as iron and soft as thread?..confusing

[hasayfu]

confusing? That's why it's high level.

What is you exposure to Hung Gar? That will help in framing an answer. The most basic response about the set is that it teaches the internal concepts of Hung Gar. Those that think Hung Gar is a purely external art are not high level.

Entire books have been written on the subject.

[Firebird]

Tid Sin Kuen is mainly for developing Chi.
You produce three different sounds, for the five organs: heart , liver, lungs, kidneys , ...
connected with the five elements.
It is the last form You learn in Hung Gar.
People who practice already the form could tell You more, If You learn Hung Gar ask Your classmates.

[SETANSI]

Is iron thread the same as iron wire?

[Firebird]

Yes

[ursa major]

Originally posted by hongkongfooey
how is that possible?..to be hard as iron and soft as thread?..confusing

The internal training for Iron & Thread starts much earlier in the lower forms such as Kung-Tse, Tiger & Crane, 10 Forms, etc although in these forms the practitioner is given less focused insights into Chi and internal training.

As you move 'up' in the Hung-Gar system more emphasis is given to internal training until Iron & Thread which is specific in it's focus and is entirely devoted to internal strength training -- other wise known as 'Chi'.

How to be hard and soft ? You already are -- all that is required is to be trained in how to take advantage of it.

regards,
UM.

[LawClansman]

This subject was recently posted:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=17989&highlight=albright


Hope this info helps.

[ironbridge#9]

iron wire or iron thread helps build internal power ..in most hung schools you start out learning external power ..conditioning ect..the further you get along in your forms you start learning the internal aspects of the forms youve already learned ..the most advanced being iron wire..which along with building internal power helps to strengthen your internal organs...but ..i must say that when practiced wrong iron wire is a dangerous form....it can lead to internal damage and even broken bones...it is an advanced form ..which the other hung ga forms prepare you for..which is why it is rarely or even never taught to begining students..having said that i also must say that when taught and performed properley..you will after much practice develop unbeleivable power...i love iron wire and if you practice hung ga you should really look foward to learning the form...

[LawClansman]

The notion that one will be injured if practicing the Wire Set is a myth. Simply started to keep people away from it and as usual in
Chinese Martial Arts to give added mystique by playing the old "secrets" card. In my 40 years in the Hung Gar system, I have never heard of anyone sustaining any type of injury from improper practice of the wire set.
Futhermore, different branches of Hung practice the wire differently. So by the original statement, everybody except one branch should be keeling over after having practiced it "wrong" for so many years.
I know that there is an E book available on the wire set that is translated with Mandarin sounds. In many cases completely different from the original Cantonese sounds. If there was an incorrect way to practice the set, this would be it. The sounds are to be in their original Cantonese to effectively coincide with the internal organs.
Since there are so many variations of this set, who is right??
If you use the Lam Sai Wing book as your guide, then the Lam family is the only one practicing it that way. But Hung Gar exists in other lineages than the Lam family. So does the wire set.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Carl,

Excellent observations. I am just beggining the quest you started a long time ago, so I don't have as good information as you do. But I think you might be slightly overlooking somethings, or maybe I am way off base. Feel free to correct my train of thought here.

Many people can practice Iron Wire without major injury as well as practice it without major benefits. There is a skill in doing it. If I just bought a video and stepped through the sequences I would not really learn the set. Would I injure myself? I couldn't tell you. But I doubt it is the phsycial coreography or even the words that help or hurt you. But it is how it is done.

We all run all the time. Nothing really special about running. Kids do it, adults do it, even older people do it. Not to many places specialize in teaching the proper fundimentals of running. And there is great benifits in running. But, it is also dangerous. You can damage you ligiments, you can fall down, or perhaps pull a muscle. If your playing with Chi and you do so improperly, You may run the risk of some injury. That is, if you beleive the theory of cultivating chi and such.

Out of curriosity, what purpose and benefit is Iron Wire for you? Is it for developing Chi or something else?

Just the thoughts of a Hung Gar novice,
Tom
________
Jailbroken (http://jailbroken.org/)

[WanderingMonk]

Sifu Carl,

May I ask you a question? How would the concepts of swallow-float-spit-sink translate into the 12 keywords of iron threads. I thought yao kiu might correspond with swallow; gong kiu might correspond to spit, etc. Could you spare the time to give some pointers?

thanks

wm

[ironbridge#9]

i can say it is more then just a rumor that you can occur injury..i know of two cases where tw differant people injured their ribs and one person that suffered tendon damage on there forearm...due to over exertion...it can be dangerous..im not saying that everyone who practices it will get injured..im just saying that when practiced incorrectley it can be dangerous..

[TenTigers]

I agree with TietKiuGow ;-) I also know of two people who were injured when learning the wire form improperly. I was one of them. I did not heed my Sifu's advice and ate either too soon before or after(don't remember which) and suffered a severe strain of the diaphragm region-more like the area running down the lower edge of the ribcage on one side for about ten days.-okay, so I was a dumb kid. (I am MUCH wiser now! (yeah, right.) A training brother was not so lucky, and has done permanant damage to himself, some sort of tendon/groin/abdominal thing-but he cannot do much of anything anymore. Not so much of an urban myth. Face it, you can injure yourself doing anything if you train foolishly.

[LawClansman]

True that you can injure youself in most any type of physical movement, but that does not make it Wire specific. To do it "wrong" usually refers to the sequence, posture, sounds, etc. The idea of damaging the tendons due to over exersion can just as easily be applied to the San Chin kata practiced in karate or playing tennis. Again, not wire specific. More have sustained injuries from the play of the other sets due to the constant stamping of the feet causing damage to the knees and feet / heel/ tendons.

Ten Tigers, you sustained injury while learing it properly from your sifu, then imagine how many other people learn it from a tape or by watching others, or by trading with a student or reading a book . I know that your play of the set is quite different than mine in content and flavor. I have had many discussions with Sifu Yee about this 25 years ago.
Wan Chi Ming's set is quite different than yours or the one I now play (Although he was my sifu back in 1977).

BuckSam Kong's version is a bit different from Wing lam which is a bit different from Chan Hon Chungs which is a bit different from Lam Cho and on and on. All different to varing degrees. Yet all can be used to develop your abilitys in the Hung system.
So although I can agree that you CAN hurt your self, It is not specific to the the wire set. In my experiences I have not had injury and personally know no one who has. As to the use of tension of the wire set, there is no more strain than in the use of tenson of movements in the other sets.

tparkerkfo :
The main benefit to me of playing the wire set is the stability of movement. Not just in Gung Fu but in everyday things. The chi training and organ training are, I believe, an important part of the training.

WanderingMonk :
Bik kiu/ jik kiu - swallow and spit.
tai kiu / jai kiu - float and sink
Gong and Yau are used to interpret flavor and energy of the techniques.

[once ronin]

hello carl,

practicing tit sin is not dangerous. being taught incorrectly is.

the different versions means 1 of 2 things.

1. they have different experiences from their training.

2. learned it wrong.

you can have a press conference or debate on camera with questions and answers.

then you will fine the true masters of this form and the frauds just selling their name.

[LawClansman]

However, since there are so many versions there shuold be many more injuries sustained by those taught "incorrectly".
I have trained with 10 different Hung Gar teachers. All taught differently. I sustained no injury.

In regards to an interragation of sorts of teachers, it wouldn't prove much. The biggest frauds know how to cover their tracks and are expert in the debating process. Many qualified masters are not so verbally equipt.

Unfortunately almost EVERYONE has a different version, even those taught by the same teacher.

But to try to "find the true masters of the form" is not understanding that the wire set is to benefit the style. Even tho it could be used as a separate way of training.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the answers. I am fairly new and have a long way to go before I learn Iron Wire....I am only learnig Gung Gee. I have not heard from my sifu or sigung if Iron Wire is dangerous or not to play with since I am not that far yet.

You bring up some great arguemnts. Many teachers do seem to have a different coreography and even different sounds. I guess if you talk from physics point of view, the actual frequency or tone used would probably be more important than the actual word that is said, be it madarin or Cantonese.

But what I would offer is that the "magic" of Iron Wire is not in the Coreography or the exact sounds, but how the whole thing works together. Indeed each master is doing it differently from a visual point of view, but are they really doing it differently? I think they all are problably much closer to each other than would be apparent.

What types of injuries are we talking about in reality here? Physical ones, which some people already answered, or chi type injuries? If one of the benefits of the form is to develop Chi, then it is possible to do that incorrectly and be hurt. Maybe most people are not injured because they are not actually activating the chi in the first place.

I don't know if you can actually be injured or not. But it seems that if it was good for you and not dangerous, then it wouldn't be the last form to be taught for most people. There must be a reason for it.

Tom
________
Toys Lingerie (http://www.****tube.com/categories/1100/lingerie/videos/1)

[LawClansman]

tparkerkfo

Actually, the place where the wire set is taught varies. Some even teach the wire set first. I teach it as third pillar (Gung Ji, Fu Hok, Dit Sin, Sup Yin). In addition to the added sets( Gau Duk Sao, Lau gar, Wu Dip jeung etc). Most in the past have held the sup yin as the last set because it actually combines the previous sets together. It was always the coveted set and held in extreme secrecy for many years not so with the wire.

It is difficult to hurt your chi flow if you don't understand it in the first place. The only two problems with chi flow would be stagnant chi and reverse chi which results in illness. They are not easy things to acomplish. So you are correct in saying that many are not utilizing chi work at all.

The sounds in Mandarin are completely different from Cantonese. So it would not be a variation at all, just wrong sounds. The creators of the set spoke Cantonese. The sounds are Cantonese period. the tone / frequency or whatever else is different in mandarin. Additionally, some sounds in Cantonese make your organs jump and provides an easier reference when learing as you can feel it right away.

Although the wire set variations as taught by many, I don't say the the essense is lost. And it is apparent that they are closely related. They all follow the same structure / framework. So this is why I never can say that one is better than another. However, coreography has to be follows to a significant degree otherwise it is another set entirely.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your insites. A couple thoughts on my part. I thought the words provide a vibration that affects the various organs. I would think that vibration would be whats important. Vibration would come from the tone or frequency/pitch of the words rather than the exact words. Though percussion and ressonance would play an impotant role...which would be the actual words. I wonder if they have to be Cantonese words in specific. Just out of fun, would the set exist had the south spoke maderian or some other language?

Another thing...You said that you teach the iron wire before the 5 animals and that others did this as well. I might be confused, but the people I have spoken with seem to say that the 5 animal form is a bridge between Fu Hok and Iron Wire. It was created to bridge the two forms. If that is true, then it would be odd to learn it after iron wire. I suspect you don't beleive this, right? What would the 5 animal 5 element form teach that is not found in either fu hok or iron wire?

If you don't mind me asking, which lineages/teachers teach the iron wire early? I have never heard this, so it is interesting for me.

Thank you for sharring your experience.
Tom
________
Weed (http://wwweed.com/)

[LawClansman]

No doubt that the sounds would be different as would the form. The Shaolin Temple had sets that did use sounds in mandarin. Also for internal training. It is not that the Mandarin speaker can not make the sounds, it is that the Characters as written would be spoken differently. No doubt different characters could be used to get the same sounds.

Five animal precedes the wire set. It is a legacy from the Shaolin temple. Pak Yuk Feng's 170 movements based on the five animals: tiger, leopard, snake, dragon and crane. The wire set is created by Dit Kiu Saam one of the ten tigers of Canton. The wire set is based on the dragon energy of Hung Gar.

The wire set was never hard to get. The ten pattern was always the one no one would teach. It was a right of passage for instructors to identify as completeing the system. Additionally, the movements are the more advanced techniques in that it contains new techniques not in Fu Hok and Gung Ji Fook Fu (the other three animals). There are also those that teach the sup yin as ten animals: tiger, leopard, snake, crane, dragon, lion, elephant, monkey, tiger cub and horse. I have learned both versions. there is also a difference in the sup yin in that one version uses the ending of fu hok to complete the set and another does not. The wire presents no special bridge to learning the sup yin and visa versa.

I would like to quote Master Lai Ng Sam " Iron wire boxing is considered the foundational pillar of our system and is often one of the first forms I teach my students." He goes on to say " Many Hung Ga teachers claim Iron Wire boxing must only be taught to the most advanced students as it is too dangerous for the begining student. I do agree internal health or martial exercises must be practiced under the guidance of a qualified instructor, but I do not believe one must be a martial artist to practice Iron Wire Boxing."
from an article in Qi magazine.

[LawClansman]

I would like to add information from the book on the wire set from Lam Sai wing (written by Ju Yu Jai) There are two passages, which make clear that the wire set is taught to beginners.

1) "Dit Kiu Sam stayed in the temple and taught his sick friend Lee Chong the wire form. School teacher Lee had suffered from a life long disease."

2) Ju Yu Jai his own biography: "Teacher Ju did teach Traditional Chinese medicine. One of his favorite students in the class, had a bad condition. His concentration was poor, but Ju Yu jai liked him and decided to teach him the wire form to improve his energy and strengthening his focus."

These statements show that the wire set has been and CAN be used as a separate set outside of learning Hung Gar to improve the health. In these cases, the wire form is viewed as a separate entity from the rest of the style and taught as such.

I personally do not disconnect the Wire set from the rest of the system but would have no objection to teaching it as the first or second form.