Weng Chun & Ng Jo

[reneritchie]

This is to respond to something interesting Bynd1 raised. WRT Weng Chun & Ng Jo. There is a school of thought that Weng Chun actually derived from Fujian Weng Chun Bak Hok Kuen (Fujian Perpetual Spring (County) White Crane Boxing) that was brought into Guangdong and onto the Red Junks during the Qing dynasty migrations (see assorted published historical accounts).

For example, the famed Lee Man-Mao, who was head of the Opera Union during the Taiping, was a White Crane boxer, so we know with reasonable certainty that there was Fujian White Crane on the junks at the time. It is also believe that the original Fujian White Crane did not consist of most of the boxing routines (sequenced techniques) as it does now, but mostly short forms and San Sik expressed from the core principles. This may well have led to the version of Weng Chun practiced on the Red Junks by our Wing Chun ancestors.

As for Ng Jo (Wuzu/Ngor Cho), one of the "five ancestral fists" that founded Ng Jo was Fujian White Crane, which means it shares, in part, the same "DNA" (core conceptual movements), leading to the similarities some may see. (Even in arts partiall derived from Bak Hok on Ng Jo, like Okinawan Kenpo)

RR

[byond1]

ahhhh finally...someone wants to talk...o.k i will organize my info on weng chun white crane and post a basic compasison of ging and principle, from my limited knowledge, of white crane and wing chun.....tomorow
ng jo's first form teachs 4 basic gings or skills....the same skills (except the tun) are found the the weng chun kuen form, ...double low palmstrikes.....sinking of the wrist joint....double biu tze( in ng jo it is done very low....in weng chun it is done higher)....the weng chun(from my understanding) uses the stance(via legs) for the energy.....the ng jo though also uses yiu lik....(which of cource weng chun trains yiu(waist)...just not at that part of that particular form).....
interesting thing about how weng chun white crane (named after the province)generates its ging.....there is the method with the legs..gerk faat.....method with the waist (which still of cource uses the rooted legs as a base but doesnot add anything with the feet or legs)...method with both waist and legs (good wc can and should use the 3.)..as well as useing bowing of the chest and back (which can be incorporated with other methods)---oh sow hung where have you been my whole life?......there are hard ging, soft ging. and soft/hard ging styles.....white crane is one of the few styles in the world that actually use soft/hard.....very few styles use this...usually either hard ging with local chi support is used or soft ging with no muscle, all tendon with dan tian supported chi...or cource wing chun uses the soft/hard ging.....which means we are part of a very small gang..lol....
more tomorow.....
how simular is cho family wck to chi sim weng chun? what is the cho family slt like? is it anything like fung siu chings saam pai fut?
brian

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by byond1

how simular is cho family wck to chi sim weng chun? what is the cho family slt like? is it anything like fung siu chings saam pai fut?
brian


Nope. Yik Kam WCK is far different with Chi Sim Weng Chun as I know from Sifu Andreas.

The Yik Kam SLT of Cho family is a combination of White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang's DNA. Nothing Similar at all with Saam Pai Fut.
Yik Kam SLT cannot be White CRane's San Chin or HAk KA's boxing. Yik Kam kuen kuit recorded what is the DNA of this set.

In addition, Yik KAm is an actor playing Proper woman role. So, jing is culivate with Soft .... definate not those Shao Lin or Hard type of Jing.

If You want to know more about Yik Kam's Jing method...
Read " this one's for you" in the WWW. Wingchunkuen.com.. you might be able to see something.

Hendrik

[reneritchie]

Brian,

Thank you for being part of serious, respectful discussion. Hopefully we can serve as good examples.

Rise/Sink, Spit/Swallow (Fao/Chum, Tao/Tun) are the basic San Fa (Body Method) of many Southern fist systems, and are found either explicitly or implicitly named in Sum Nung and Pao Fa Lien WCK, and probably in others as well.

As to the Cho Siu Lien Tao, it looks more like Foshan WCK to me than to Weng Chun Kuen or other southern fist.

Hendrik,

Was I right in saying previously that you believe Siu Lien Tao was developed by merging Emei 12 Posts with White Crane core movements?

RR

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by reneritchie




Hendrik,

Was I right in saying previously that you believe Siu Lien Tao was developed by merging Emei 12 Posts with White Crane core movements?

RR

That is correct. One thing I want to add is that white Crane has core which is not just movement but the essense of White Crane. That too was implant within the Siu Lien Tau.

Hendrik

[Andreas Hoffman]

Chi Sim Weng Chun´s Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam´s Siu Lim Tau.

Saam Pai Fat is different.

Saam Pai Faat is not common for all Chi Sim Weng Chun families. It is a special set from the Lo family and concentrates on the multideminional idea.

According our family tradition Saam Pai Faat is a special set from Dai Fa Min Kam.

Greetings from Germany

Andreas Hoffmann

[reneritchie]

Hi Andreas,

Thank you! That's very interesting. In what way do you mean it's similar? That is follows the same pattern of choreography, or that the core movements and methods are done in a similar way, or both?

Do you know which set (SPF or SYK) was the foundation set of Fung Siu-Ching?

Thanks again, and best wishes,

RR

[t_niehoff]

Andreas Hoffman wrote:

According our family tradition . . . . AH

Exactly! You set a great example. TN

Terence

[Hsanto]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
Chi Sim Weng Chun Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam Siu Lim Tau.



Andreas Hoffmann [/QUOTE]




Hi Andreas,

Happy New year!

I understand you might post your claim based on some oral speculation which you might not looking into and verify in details.... as many of us do.

Thus, you don't have to answer this post.

However, if you are serious about it.

Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they
needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details...... in very specific.




Best Regards
Hendrik







"Chi Sim Weng Chun Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam Siu Lim Tau." - AH


-------------------------------------

For your claim to be valid,

You need to provide explaination and comparison in the following basic issues to justify your claim.




0, Naming:

why the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau set is called Siu Lien Tau not " ending with Kuen"?


1, Body and application of the system:

the Tee Yong or body and application of Yik kam's Siu Lien Tau.
and how is this link to the four wisdom of Tatagatha and buddha nature.



2, Uniqueness in cultivation of style:

How many unique cultivation keys for the YKSLT set and how many stage or progress of achivements interm of body, Qi, Shen while practicing the set or Sin Fa and Cheh Dee in Madarin?




3, Arrangement of Contents:

the Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane connection, where are they located in the YKSLT set? and why it arrange this way?



4, Uniqueness in method:

The principle of Yik Kam SLT set and its arrangement and uniqueness which makes it no longer White Crane or Emei 12 zhuang?



5, Specific Detail implementations and significant:


The kuen kuit of Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau in detail and specific utilization of 12 medirians....and intention focusing..... and the significant in health according to TCM in specifics details?


6, Transmition code:

Hung mun code in 1850 about the transmittion of this Yik Kam set in the red boat era.



7, The identity of Creator and thier back ground:

this set according to Yik Kam's record is design by Miu Soon. who create this set based on his own internal art and White Crane. Miu Soon eventhough we in Yik Kam lineage do not know that migh be a real name or not. we in Yik Kam lineage had found the type of martial art Miu Soon did with evidents from other system of Chinese martial art.

How is this relate to Chi Sim of Weng Chun with proof of specific evidence? what art in specific Chi Sim practiced? What chinese dialec language he used at his time?

and how is this link with the EVERGREEN HALL of Shao LIn which is not identified yet . Where we in Yik Kam lineage know with evident that SLT link with the Buddhist Temple on the Goldern Summit of Emei mount and can be located today.

Since Benny and his student of VTM make claim in public that HFY and Chi Sim are the oldest. Which is the olderst compare with everyone's Wing Chun Kuen. I presume you agree with Benny Meng.
I certainy would love to also understand what evident in details of that public claim of Benny Meng which you might have agree on.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Hello Rene and Hendrik,

All families in Chi Sim Weng Chun are sharing Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen and Weng Chun Chong Kuen. Fa Kuen is special from GM Chu Chung Man and Saam Pai Fat special from Lo family.

Hendrik, peace !

I like only share chi sim weng chun according my family from ancestor Fung Siu Ching and I appreciate your research and the research from the Ving Tsun Museum.

My wish is you would be working together.

Andreas Hoffmann

[reneritchie]

Andreas is an excellent example. Andreas and Hendrik have met, and hopefully will again one day. I think they are two of the keys in our generation to developing a working model of where WCK came from.

Here's one example of such a model I think we can begin with, if anyone is interested:

Weng Chun Kuen from Fujian came to the Red Junk, including the 11 Fists, the 6.5 pole, and the Wooden Dummy. This was learned by Wong, Leung, Kam, et. al.

Siu Lien Tao came to the Red Junk, either whole as it descended later, or as raw methodology (perhaps from Emei as Hendrik's research suggests) and was learned by said Red Junk performers.

The knives of the Shanghai Small Knife Society came to said Red Junk performers, as did the similar sounding Wing Chun Kuen name, as described in Hendrik's article on the two triad brothers and the Red Turban rebellion.

Said performers combined their knowledge of Weng Chun Kuen, Pole, and Dummy with Siu Lien Tao, used the methods with the double knives, and the latter art as a whole became known as Wing Chun Kuen (Recite Play (Opera Actor) Fist).

When the Hung Gan failed and the actors fled, some like Kam taught the original Weng Chun Kuen, and some like Wong and Leung taught the Wing Chun Kuen.

I believe while this may not be *the* origin of WCK, it is a workable one given the oral traditions of *many* families, as well as the histories of both the Red Junk, and the rebellions. I would welcome discussion of it, at least as a place to start.

RR

[Hsanto]

Rene,

Good idea.

However, I would like to suggest that all the sets disregard from who or which family. I would not take it in a face value. Without knowing who is the mother of the set..... Conclusion cannot be drawn.

White Crane DNA and Shao Lin DNA are different DNA.... for example, 6.5 pole is not a unique name. Other system also has 6.5pole. And people always made up sets.... It happen every where.


As for the Pre-Red boat issues,
A fun question for you is that why in the world that Yik Kam's SLT writing was written with Fujianese.... Why is the 4 key core of Yik Kam SLT was written in Fujianess... while he was an actor working in Red boat opera where it is in Canton.....

what is the possibility of the cantonese Red boat artists create the SLT's core in Red boat; and then
the Cantonese so kind to allow thier creation in Red boat written in Fujianese? May be in this way they can learn a second language while learning SLT? ha ha ha ( I guess the Cantonese needs to take TOFEL when they want to learn SLT :D )
So what does Dai Fa Min Kaam speak? ha ha ha
How about Tan Sau Ng? He speak mandarin? HuBei diarect? why this pice of writing was written in Fujian? Ha ha ha let you do some more reseach while I am taking a rest. :D


the name of the monks from Emei lineage...... the language of the Yik Kam kuits.... there are lots of signatures.... the code of Hung Mun..... Ancestors seldom lies ;) Ha ha ha Ancestors always send me some presents to share...

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman


I like only share chi sim weng chun according my family from ancestor Fung Siu Ching and I appreciate your research and the research from the Ving Tsun Museum.

My wish is you would be working together.

Andreas Hoffmann


Hi Andreas,

As you know, since we meet in LA with Robert, Benny.
I have no problem working with anyone. As soon as there is integrity, honesty, mutual respect.
To be real honest, i didn't do research. I am just a messenger.


As for the Yik Kam's legacy, for past hundred of years, No one should bent the rule, but go by book that is the teaching to all indoor student of Cho family. That is also the reason why Cho family can preserve the Yik Kam SLT in very details.




Your friend from Germany has contact me about his project. I told him, Qi Gong is a modern term. In the era of creating SLT, the term used is not Qi Gong and classified differently.


In addition, Shao Lin art related to Chan was made popular after 1914, if I am not wrong, when a shao lin book title Shao Lin... was publised. Before that era.... there is a different story. Thus, alots of people making up WCK history trap themselve in these details signatures....... (Sigh)



Hendrik

[Chango]

Hello Hindrik, Rene

Hendrik- what about Chum kiu and biu jee etc.... please help connect the dots here. It seems that the Cho info seems to never go beyond this! Why or should we say why not? does the connection stop there? what is in the place of this information if it is not a part of Cho style WCK?




Hendrik wrote: Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they
needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details...... in very specific.



--I mean this with all due respect Hendrik your claims all come from the written word or a book. Kung fu can not be taught from a book! You have to see how this could show disrespect to what is being shared and passed down from fung Siu Ching. I know you could not have meant it that way but I think you should be mindful of this.

Hendrik wrote: White Crane DNA and Shao Lin DNA are different DNA.... for example, 6.5 pole is not a unique name. Other system also has 6.5pole. And people always made up sets.... It happen every where.


---please discuss more on the difference's of Shaolin DNA and White crane. Please tell us what your shaolin references are and is there only one White crane system? if not which one? When you say 6.5 what do you mean? ***I have heard many different explinations for 6.5 points or just 6.5***

Hendrik wrote:As for the Yik Kam's legacy, for past hundred of years, No one should bent the rule, but go by book that is the teaching to all indoor student of Cho family. That is also the reason why Cho family can preserve the Yik Kam SLT in very details.

-- I find this interesting that you mention nothing about Chum kiu and biu jee! From what I have seen in most of the WCK information SLT cannot stand alone! This would be leaving out a great deal of information! From what I have gathered skill/system would be incomplete with out the other forms. Please explain.

Rene wrote: I believe while this may not be *the* origin of WCK, it is a workable one given the oral traditions of *many* families, as well as the histories of both the Red Junk, and the rebellions. I would welcome discussion of it, at least as a place to start.

RR

---- "Workable" indeed however if we do more working and in light of not having Chum kiu and biu jee etc... logic would make me more inclined to believe that Cho and not WCK as a whole would be a mix of Wing chun, White crane,and possibly Emei! This would explain why only SLT or eveb SLT understanding through these influences or even a direct mix of all of this information. this also would be very much workable considering the logic flow.

Hendrik wrote:Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they
needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details...... in very specific.



---This is nothing personal indeed Hendrik. I did not know you are the "succesor" of a system? Do you have the ability to express your complete system? I know for a fact Sifu Hoffman has great skills physically and orally expressing his system. Is this the case with you? If not will you be able to live up to being a succesor? I mean passing down the system in it's complete form? Who bistowed this honor upon you and who witnessed it? So in order to make such demands on information being shared. Maybe we should consider the responsibilities envolved with such a position!It would not be your job to take care of other lineages background just your own. So please let's keep that in mind when addressing some list members and Sifu's.



I really enjoy constructive conversion as well!!!
Chango

[hunt1]

Chango - I think you are misunderstanding something about Hendricks WC. His SLT is a long form with 4 sections as I understand it sections 2 and 3 conform to chum kui and bil jee. When he writes SLT chum kui and bil jee ,from a 3 form point of view, are included. For what it is worth I have seen WC from a non- Cho line also only have 1 long 4 section form that breaks down into slt,chum kiu and bil jee. This family also has a written history that details the form and its break up into 4 seperate forms. One long form does have a certain logic to it. Many of wing chuns contemporary arts like SPM , Bak Mei, etc also only had 1 form at creation.

[yuanfen]

Some thoughts FWIW on the more interesting aspects of the discussions
of the "roots" of wing chun.

1. History is not always, or even usually "linear"- dialectical not necessarily materialistic zig zags (encounters with other things) and even cycles( including revisionism) emerge.

2. If we dont use history to legitimize whatever we are doing-
one of the problematic questions is- what is this a history of?
What are the key definite features of the entity that we are trying to trace? Partly implicit in Hunt 1's posts. A Martian reading our posts could legitimately assume that anything is wing chun.

3. Unless history is instructive on something that might improve or inform our current wing chun-explain the dna analogy specifically- shouldnt we just treat history as an interesting story or stories?

4. BTW FWIW I have always treated all 3 hand forms as basically one for experienced folks- different chapters of the main text.
Often in serious subjects- its the first chapter that holds the key- you cant enter other areas until you master chapter 1- one will always wobble your way through if you skip chapter 1 to get
fast to the 3rd.

5. Weapons in WC are extensions of the hand and historically for use- not just for exercise- close quarters do- though there are eceptional long entry uses- and kwan work on boats and docks or elsewhere
for greater distances- though it has short uses as well. Understanding wc weapons motions imparts a wc character to using many other weapons and things in your hand-
off the box- cheers - till next week. Off on a wc trip.

joy chaudhuri


Joy

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by hunt1
Chango - I think you are misunderstanding something about Hendricks WC.....

Hi, Hunt1,

You are right about the SLT from Yik Kam.
Hope that some of your question also clear up.





As for Chango, my suggestion is Chango needs go back and review the materials in details including the history events before jump into conclusion or making suggestion.


I like to thanks for Chango's opinions.
However, I would like to advise Chango to go back to ask for advise and approval from Garret Gee or the Gate Keeper of Hung Fa Yee before posting or sticking himself into Andreas family and my family business.

As Chango's own advise------- It would not be your job to take care of other lineages background just your own. So please let's keep that in mind when addressing some list members and Sifu's.
He needs to walk his talk right?



Finally, I would also like to suggest that , instead of Chango wasting his valuable time on things he has little idea with. why don't Chango response to David Williams request on:

"Can someone from the VTM staff start disclosing the actual research information behind the conclusions regarding pre-red boat activity?

Can they start walking us through the 5 stages of their methodology regarding their findings?"


Let's keep simple within technical.

[Hsanto]

Hi JOy,


Good ideas. -HS


3. Unless history is instructive on something that might improve or inform our current wing chun-explain the dna analogy specifically- shouldnt we just treat history as an interesting story or stories?

Yup. agree. HS



4. BTW FWIW I have always treated all 3 hand forms as basically one for experienced folks- different chapters of the main text.
Often in serious subjects- its the first chapter that holds the key- you cant enter other areas until you master chapter 1- one will always wobble your way through if you skip chapter 1 to get
fast to the 3rd. -j

Agree.

Say taking Calculus class in university. Some school doing it with 2 semesters. some doing it with 3 quaters. The important part is the content. doesn't matter it is 2 semesters or 3 quaters.

and Certainly, if one doesn't have basic differentiation how the world one is going to do partial differential? Foundation is very important.

ON the other hand, Geometry class is not Trig class. So, one cannot said Geometry is Trig. and claim they are the same.
But all components of Trig are the same disregard of call it Ip Trig or YK Trig. or YKS Trig or ..... Trig class is trig. disregard of 1 year or 2 semesters or 3 quaters. -HS




5. Weapons in WC are extensions of the hand and historically for use- not just for exercise- close quarters do- though there are eceptional long entry uses- and kwan work on boats and docks or elsewhere
for greater distances- though it has short uses as well. Understanding wc weapons motions imparts a wc character to using many other weapons and things in your hand-
off the box- cheers - till next week. Off on a wc trip. -J


There are different 6.5 poles set or even points spread across WCK family. Not to mention style like Chu Gar... also has 6.5 poles.... this is not an easy subject. IMHO -HS


Hi guys, I would like to end this discussion for now until my server got fixed.

[reneritchie]

Chango - Thank your for participating. You may want to do some background on Siu Lien Tao to get the most out of the discussion (you can probably find much of it archived under previous responses to questions you'd asked). I do appreciate and agree with your call for specifics, however, and thus look forward to you sharing all the specifics behind your own theory in great detail. Perhaps the rest of us can then use that as an example (since we don't ask of others what we ourselves are unwilling to do, of course)

Hendrik - Interesting stuff but to be truly beneficial I think we have to first get some sort of order together and then progress through it step by step. Question: why would information on Sichuan Emei Shierzhuang be written in Fujian style? Do you think it was so early a development that a recent Fujian immigrant to Guangdong (or elsewhere) learned it before they become settled into Guangdong style?

Hunt1 - Very interesting! I find it particularly interesting if YKS lineage (and perhaps Yip Man) preserved 3 sets and the core San Sik, and Cho & the lineage you mention, preserve one linked set of 4 including the 3 sets and the core San Sik cycles.

Joy - Very good points well worth remembering!

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by reneritchie


Hendrik - Interesting stuff but to be truly beneficial I think we have to first get some sort of order together and then progress through it step by step. Question: why would information on Sichuan Emei Shierzhuang be written in Fujian style? Do you think it was so early a development that a recent Fujian immigrant to Guangdong (or elsewhere) learned it before they become settled into Guangdong style?



Hey Rene,

are you suggesting I call up Hsu Chi and ask her about the Fujian immigrant to Guangdong and her daughter?
Since I know HSu Chi is also Fujianese.:D

Don't know what is Hsu Chi's last name. Yen? may be?:cool:

[reneritchie]

Hendrik - Not sure what you mean. Could you please rephrase in a less obtuse manner?

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik wrote: Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

------------------------------------------------------

Hm....

GM Hoffmann is the gate keeper of Chi Sim WCK.

But Hendrik is just a student (Successor) of Cho's Emie SLT.

Know this.

Seek wisdom, and purity.

Quickly clear the way.

We will begin to be individual masters of our world.

[t_niehoff]

"RollingHand" wrote:

GM Hoffmann is the gate keeper of Chi Sim WCK.

But Hendrik is just a student (Successor) of Cho's Emie SLT.
------------

As I understand it, Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen is what Andreas calls his branch of weng chun. He apparently has fused the teachings of several different lineages descending from Fung Sui Ching (and Dai Man Kam) into his own curriculum. Many of the lineages descending from Fung Sui Ching do not call themselves Chi Sim WCK or recognize Andreas as "gatekeeper". This is not meant to take anything away from AH - from what I've seen (video) and heard, he is highly skilled and knowledgeable.

As far as Hendrik is concerned, you are (not surprisingly) incorrect. And, btw, he is highly skilled and knowledgeable too.

Terence

[reneritchie]

I respectfully request that all trolls and stalkers leave this thread alone and allow those of us interested in polite, productive discussion to continue without having to sort through all the petty personal attacks.

This thread is not about Andreas Hoffmann sifu or Hendrik Santo sifu, it is about Ng Jo and Wing Chun Kuen. If this topic doesn't interest you, perhaps you can start your own and let those of us it does interest get back to the discussion.

(Perhaps there is some way for the Forum admin to help us in this regards?)

So, anyone have any constructive thoughts on the sample outline I provided? Anything that would immediately show it as an impossibility, or perhaps suggest it is unlikely? (No heresay or personal opinions, please, only substantive reasons with explination).

RR (wondering who can hang...)

[R Loewenhagen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]Hendrik wrote: Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

------------------------------------------------------

Hm....

GM Hoffmann is the gate keeper of Chi Sim WCK.

But Hendrik is just a student (Successor) of Cho's Emie SLT.
_____________________________________
Rolling Hand,

Astute observation..... Andreas Hoffman is a true Grand Master of a system.... he is the only member of the Chi Sim Family to study and master the material and teachings of all five Chi Sim Lineages... he has thousands of students and grand students spread throughout the world... it is simply unforgivable that these internet punks with limited experience and no training in Kung Fu manners (i.e. Hendrik and Terrence) should speak to him as equals in the field of Kung Fu.... THIS IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH INTERNET FORUMS.... there appears to be no respect whatsoever for the professional qualifications and accomplishments of true masters attempting to answer questions from self-appointed 'Experts'....

In the case of Hendrik and Terrence, there is most definitely a hidden agenda.... there is another force at play behind their continual attempts to embarrass Wing Chun masters who acknowledge their Shaolin roots... they have no desire to unite the Wing Chun world on a common journey for truth.... their goal is 'division'... without possessing any real credentials and certifications themselves, they have a need to pooh pooh other's legitimacy in order to make themselves feel more complete.

Your continual challenges of their self-inflated posturings and tomes are most sincerely appreciated by literally hundreds of Wing Chun players here in Arizona.

Again, thanks much!

Richard Loewenhagen

[reneritchie]

Richard,

As someone who has previously published on one theory of WCK's possible origins, it's great to see you contributing.

It would be even better, however, to see, rather than something about individual personalities, if you chose to share your insights on the topic at hand?

(Please note, however, as successor of Chi Sim WCK, Andreas Hoffmann sifu is an important voice to have in our discussions. And, though he chooses not to make his standing in his system similarly public, Hendrik Santo and the records of the Cho family are just important.)

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by reneritchie

though he chooses not to make his standing in his system similarly public, Hendrik Santo and the records of the Cho family are just important.)


Rene,

It doesn't matter what other think.

In Yik Kam lineage. People Take pride in how to serve and help other fellow human constructively, and preserve what the ancestors passed down. Not about fame , money, or title.

The Chinese said, Ye De Fu Ren is the teaching principle of Yik Kam lineage.


Hendrik


Another thing in history is that. Taiping revolution or Shang Hai revolution didn't save China. But Ghandi did defeat Bristish fire arm without the secret martial art and all this kings --- as in Taiping, East king, west king....


Time has changes. it is 2003. people has to learn to live in a world of civilized and not using 200 years old not functioning solution to solve today's issues.

[Hsanto]

Rene,


Andreas and me are at peace and communicate well.
What is the concern of other people who has nothing to do Andreas and me? Ha Ha ha? What is thier agenda?



As for the my Agenda, it is simple. Everything is open under the SUN.


Why should we all change our ancestor to other then Ip Man, YKS, Leong Jan's... Cho Soon,.... passed down?

Why should we all agree because someone claim so? Where is the data? where is the solid evident?

Why should I agree on some one who has no idea at all on what I am practiced and trying to tell me my ancestors are wrong?
Even more ridiculus trying to twisting Chinese Chan's teaching from the patriarch.

My advise are:
Show professionalism.
Do not trying to bent the direction and always, when there is no data or evident, attact the people who has different view.
Keep Technical, get the facts and show it to the world.

Fact is always better then Smart Arguement.


Hendrik

PS. imagine if I start to challenge the lineage of some one with the evident of Chan lineage, the code of Hung Mun at the red boat era, the authenticity of the transmision of that lineage family trees. Will people get really really up set? Sure right? The insecure people will react even worst.

On the other hand, when a lineage is based on facts. confident with thier ancestors, confident with thier arts, It doesn't matter what other said.

People just never learn to not do what one doesn't want other to do to them.

My sincere advise for some people is that. No one is perfect. But, it is a good time for some to think deeply otherwise, it is one drag oneself down. and Don't blame on others.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Hi all,

I quitt my writing on this forum because of the personal bickering.
If someone is interested in Weng Chun Kuen he can write me personal or is invited to visit me on my yearly seminartour in USA (May 2003), Europe, Australia and China. I´m always open for friendship exchange, open chisao/kiusao and historic research with all masters and teachers of our Kung Fu art.

Andreas Hoffmann

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
Hi all,

I quitt my writing on this forum because of the personal bickering.

Andreas Hoffmann


Hi Andreas,

Great Idea. I second you.


Hendrik Santo

[byond1]

thank you ..thank you thank you.....rene, hendrik, hoffman sifu.....just what the doctor ordered...your sharing is an inspiration to me...and before some idiot makes an ignorant comment that will make one of us or alll of us run and hide...lets keep the ball rolling.......

hoffman sifu---i look forward to your trip to ohio in may( my birthday is may 8th..what a great gift)....i will be there with bells on and will have emptied my cup -------
from my understanding dai fa min kam taught fung siu ching
1) weng chun 11 hands
2)saam pai fut
3) jong---heaven, man, earth
4) 6.5 pole
5) mutter/fater dao
is this correct or incorrect?
is the weng chun 11 hands learned first?
do you teach this before fa kune?
my understanding of chu chong man's fa kune , is that it is slt application form of weng chun? is this accurate or am i mistaken?


hendrik sifu---so cho family slt contains (basicaly) slt, ck, and bj all in one compact form? this is the essence of yik kam's wck? o.k here is a big question......what type of jing does cho family learn in the slt form? what about ermei 12---could you please teach us a bit about what is taught in there system? its from buddhist origins?

ren----love it----your organization of the material in your post is imo the right direction.....weng chun white crane was originally a few forms that taught jing patterns...the rest was san sik drills....application forms were organized by ( i think...if memory serves..lol.) pan sifu....18 lohan palms had an influence in some divisions of white crane......
your family is one of the few that has wing chun and weng chun in it....that keeps the information seperate..instead of mixing it like chan wah shun family did......did yks learn saam pai fut or weng chun 11 hands from fung siu ching? is your pole form fung siu ching? or leung yee tai variety? do you feel like listing the various jing/energies that yks/sn wc teach's? as well as what jing is from fung or what is from fok? in the next 2 days i will post the weng chun white crane jings and principles that are common between wck and white crane..sorry its taking long time...my girlfriend just got out of the hospital and the only computer i have to use is in the library....
but we can than compare the jings from yks wc, to white crane to hopefull hendrik sifu and hoffman sifu will list some as well

richard loewenhagen---you disrespect yourself and others by posts like that----how much do you really know about hendrik? have you ever spent time with him learning his system? meng sifu teaches that this is the only true way of learning something...through the experiance of it...is this a lesson you missed? you call the inheritor of yik kam cho family wck lineage and internet punk? someone who studies buddishm from a recognized lineage master? i cant believe the vtm has anything to do with you...no museum on the planet would allow someone with your lack of respect and manners onto there staff

[reneritchie]

Byond - I think it will take Hoffmann sifu some time to trace back how Chi Sim has developed from Dai Fa Min Kam to the present day in each of the different branches, and what each succeeding generation of master in each branch has brought to the system. In any case, I think the knives, in English, is Father & Mother (FuMo) (you had the German there, ya?)

WRT Yik Kam/Cho SLT, it is not a compact form, and is probably 4-5 times as long as the Yip Man SNT, maybe more (it really is, basically, the 3 forms + 1 more all performed one after the other and you could just as easily break it up as such).

WRT Yuen Kay-San & Weng Chun Kuen, it is my understanding he did not learn any linked sets since he was already familiar with WCK and Fung Siu-Ching was already very old. Instead, they spent their time together working on advanced application, especially close body methods (locks, throws, counter locks, etc.) some of which goes beyond was is normally seen in WCK but what is found in Weng Chun Kuen. Our pole form is not like Weng Chun, to the best of my knowledge, but very close to what you see in other WCK (6.5 points with little repetition). We don't (at least in my experience) list the Ging separately for either teacher, as I believe, slight 'flavor' aside, Yuen synthesized them into his own approach (as espoused in his '12 Methods').

WRT Hendrik, please remember he descends from the Malaysian brother (Cho On) and the brother who remained in Panyu (Cho Chuen) still has its own lineage (though from what I saw it was quite similar to Hendrik - perhaps because Hendrik's sifu studied with both brothers during his lifetime).

RR

[byond1]

hi ren--leaving the library---real quick....
how about you break down some of the general jings yourself?at least slt level? im going to do it for wck and than list the white crane....
what on earth happened to your forum? i went there to post on fok bo chun and there was noting i cot find..ya?

[passing_through]

Hey, all you Catholics! No disrespect or anything - I'm purely technically minded... I'd like you to write a technical paper on the Southern Baptist's theology... still laughing at others, Hendrik?

[byond1]

jeremy---check your private message

[reneritchie]

passing_through - this is a historical and technical discussion thread and I respectfull request that you not pollute it with petty personal attacks. If that is your only interest here, please start your own threads so the rest of us can avoid them. (Perhaps the admin can help with that?)

byond1 - That's an interesting idea. Perhaps when you have time you could start a separate thread for that? I'm not sure what's up with my forum, I'll go take a look...

[passing_through]

you not pollute it with petty personal attacks

Neither personal nor petty... merely making a point.

Accepting that HFY or Chi Sim is the "primordial" wing chun, should it be expected that either system could explain more modern wing chun? This is a situation analogous to the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformations. Hendrik asked an inflammatory and ultimately empty set of questions to Sifu Hoffmann, asking for Sifu Hoffmann to explain the treasures of Cho Ga Wing Chun. I could just as easily turn the question to Hendrik and ask that he explain the treasures of HFYWC and/or Chi Sim Weng Chun. As he obviously feels that his lineage is the origins, he should be able to explain everything, in the proper language of HFY/Chi Sim... You ignored his line of logic yet you attack mine.

If that is your only interest here, please start your own threads

My only interest here is in sharing information on HFY and the VTM - to people with a genuine interest rather than those that ask loaded questions to attempt to show others up. That I end up posting against ignorance and arrogance, only speaks of those asking the questions.

Brian, checked the PM and I'll be in touch some time this week.

Jeremy R.

[Mike Mathews]

Rene,


It would be even better, however, to see, rather than something about individual personalities, if you chose to share your insights on the topic at hand?

(Please note, however, as successor of Chi Sim WCK, Andreas Hoffmann sifu is an important voice to have in our discussions

You are half-right. The point the Sifu Loewenhagen is making is the lack of respect being shown to the real keepers of systems of WCK. Sifu Hoffman is the successor of the Chi Sim system. The point is that the demands and comparisons that Hendrick makes are inappropriate at best regardless of his half-hearted comment that there is no insult intended.

You’re right in saying, “Andreas Hoffman sifu is an important voice.”


Mike

[Chango]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
Hi all,

I quitt my writing on this forum because of the personal bickering.

Andreas Hoffmann
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hsanto wrote:
Hi Andreas,

Great Idea. I second you.


Hendrik Santo




Chango-- Hendrik are you going to keep your promise this time? I think you said you wasn't going to post any more before. A man of your word??

Hsanto wrote:So what does Dai Fa Min Kaam speak? ha ha ha
How about Tan Sau Ng? He speak mandarin? HuBei diarect? why this pice of writing was written in Fujian? Ha ha ha let you do some more reseach while I am taking a rest.

Chango-- All jokes aside and not going into this subject to deep. I would like to ask Hsanto doesn't his Chan teachings teach him about ego? It seems he suffers deeply from his own by such childish, disrespectful,and uncalled for remarks. Maybe your book was written in fujianese becuase of your founders low postion in the family!! People high up in the ranks of the revolutionary activities would not risk things by having any written words. So it is hobvious this was not a concern of the Cho founder. So this would mean he was not taught the complete system only what he needed to know at the time! Now not having the complete system he would have to mix things here and there. I mean would it not make since that he had to make a chop suey sorta speak becuase he did not have all of the peaces? I mean come on you lump all of your forms into one and call it (SLT) little Idea? Plus he had no problem writing about it during political unrest? So how important could he have been to the preservation of the art? It just does not add up. say what you like. Cheun Ng was written about by non martial artist as having high skills and ranking amoungst the red boat troupe and Hi martial skills. can we say the same about Yik KAm?

let's just say that he did a good job of mixing everthing in a pot. I have no issue with that. I have a few friends that do the ulitmate fighting thing they call it Mixed martial arts. I guess if you can get it to work for you that's great. But it's without question not the origin of WCK or at least no other WCK other then yours. What gives you the right to speak for the other system? who showed you them and which ones have you seen?

:cool:

[R Loewenhagen]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Richard,

As someone who has previously published on one theory of WCK's possible origins, it's great to see you contributing.

It would be even better, however, to see, rather than something about individual personalities, if you chose to share your insights on the topic at hand?

(Please note, however, as successor of Chi Sim WCK, Andreas Hoffmann sifu is an important voice to have in our discussions. And, though he chooses not to make his standing in his system similarly public, Hendrik Santo and the records of the Cho family are just important.)

Rene,

I have never seen any evidence that the Cho family elected Hendrik their spokesperson. At least provide some evidence that they consider him a Master or Grand Master of their system. If no such evidence exists, I will continue to resent his treatment of a Grand Master as his equal on subject matter he has yet to master. It bespeaks poor manners.

Regards

Richard

[reneritchie]

Why are the VTM continuosly subverting this historical and technical discussion thread with comments directed only at the people discussing? Is that their only interest here, to attack the people rather than discuss the subject matter? If so, isn't there someplace better they could go and leave the rest of us some room to focus on WCK itself, especially this being a WCK Forum?

Also, could the moderators please point me to the section of the forum rules where the VTM was appointed to decide who were the greater or more worthy among equals here, and who should or should not be listended to?

Jeremy, Mike, Richard, between you have written numerous articles and given numerous lectures, please don't tell me that if anyone's argument here lacks merit, you cannot debate and show that? If someone is wrong, whether they be Ng Mui or a 2 day newbie, cannot you not show it with good discussion, rather than just attacking the person?

Again, as in the other thread, I challenge you to lead by example.

I've personal provided one example of a working outline, can any of the VTM's people offer anything supportive or contradictory to it? Can anyone else? Is anyone here able, with knowledge and skill, to debate the subject at hand?

[Savi]

Originally posted by byond1

richard loewenhagen---you disrespect yourself and others by posts like that ... meng sifu teaches that this is the only true way of learning something ... through the experiance of it ... is this a lesson you missed? ... i cant believe the vtm has anything to do with you ... no museum on the planet would allow someone with your lack of respect and manners onto there staff

THIS WILL BE MY ONLY POST ON THIS THREAD, further communication will be done through PM's or e-mails. -Savi.

Byond1,
Please understand how this makes me feel. This comment is uncalled for Byond1. I have just read this entire thread as of 1/28/03, and one thing NOT tolerated by any martial student - or the forum, which gives you the priviledge of posting here - is the bashing of a Sifu.

You have no clue (as in ZERO) whatsoever as to the relationship between my Sigung Meng and Sifu Loewenhagen, which goes beyond anything you are aware of. You are clearly misunderstanding Sifu Loewenhagen and have no relationship to him other than being a part of the kung fu community. If you wish to post your opinion about my Sifu, e-mail me directly and we can discuss further.

hfysavi@yahoo.com

Refrain from insults to my Sifu again, as I would not do to yours or anyone else's. Any more of your comments which follow the nature of the above quote will be reported to the moderator.

Regards,
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Refrain from insults to my Sifu again, as I would not do to yours or anyone else's. Any more of your comments which follow the nature of the above quote will be reported to the moderator.

Savi, do you think it would be a good idea to encourage everyone to refrain from insulting anyone's sifu, or any member of the WCK family for that matter? (be they Garette Gee, Hendrik Santo, or anyone else). Perhaps this may help in keeping everyone on-topic?

BTW- Do you have any thoughts to share on my possible working outline for WCK origins?