Speed and agility ( Footwork)

[CLOUD 1]

Do you think that the ''Ma Bo'' in all kung fu styles is the most important aspect. Or is it the techniques of the hands?

If you think ''Ma Bo'' is the most important then read further, if not don't bother!


To me ''Ma Bo'' is the most important because all the teachers throughout my life stress this notion. ''Protect yourself first''.
Do you agree having a good ''Ma Bo''allows you to do this,even before your hands come out, having the OPTION to stike or not to strike.

If you don't believe this then you must train harder on this aspect because this is the route to all Kung Fu. e.g breathing
power(ging lik)
fluidity
speed
calm state
confidence
focus
alighnment E.T.C

Without ''Ma Bo'' your Kung Fu is nothing but a fancy mess. Most people on this forum stress too much on hand techniques e.g Sticky Hands, lap sau, e.t.c.
Why are you taught these hand drills when you have no postioning?
Do you fight lb for lb or toe to toe?

[sui-fuw]

cloud
you are a credit to your si-fu,or visa-versa.
i hope you don't get to big for your boots????

[CLOUD 1]

Sui Fuw,
How Many hands do you play with: one or two?

[sui-fuw]

i suppose none....
do you play with your head?or is it other peoples
heads? cloud in sky
cloud in my head
clouded judgements.

[CLOUD 1]

I wandered lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden daffodils;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze.

'William Wordsworth'

[sui-fuw]

thanks for that,it was up lifting.
maybe mantis 108 and moq should read it,to help the chill out,cause they need it.

thanks again cloud 1,you live up to your name...

cloud 1
i did 1 hour every night, when training with my sifu because i was late to training.my job!

stances are the most important when training ones kung fu.correct posture, breathing, mind set,conditioning, sensitivity drills, meditations are all involved in just stance work.
excellent topic. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[CLOUD 1]

Nice to see that your SiFu has taught you correctly.
One thing bothers me. On Kung Fu Forum, there was a thread on straight punch. You replied you would attack the arm then strike and take him out. Do you practice with the right foot forward?

[Fubokuen]

You'll probably find no one to argue about the importance of foundation, but there seems to be a distinct KIND of rooting in certain south hand systems that takes a particular attention and practice. There is simply no way to manipulate the posture and generate the power without a strong sense of root. Lots of power distribution, all without a deep/wide stance, the ground must be GRIPPED.

[CLOUD 1]

Why is it do you think that the stances are not wide. Do you say that the ground must be GRIPPED at all times?

[Fubokuen]

CLOUD1- I didn't say "at all times" and I'm abit surprised you don't know what I mean. Do you practice the Lung Ying Mor Kiu? Do you have deep or wide stances? Do you want to address my question about posture from the sad "Hakka Bak Mei" thread?

[CLOUD 1]

I do not practise Lung Ying mor que.
Although i have heard it is similar to Pak Mei.

[sui-fuw]

fubolin
no-one answerd,cause you didn't ast in the right tone of voice.know it all,you've been conned like the others,played like a fiddle fuboviolin.....

[MoQ]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[sui-fuw]

moq nice to see you,thanks for the compliment,looks like you got the KFO ADMIN IN YOUR pocket.you can get away with the insults,but no-one elae can,please,pretty please tell me your secret?
p,s i try very hard to train to get to the moron level,i hope i've pass the stage of being a troll?
thanks again,your the greatest.

your humble servant s.w.

[sui-fuw]

o.k guys ban-pu,care to talk about it?moq please no need to reply cause you have great kung fu,and also your not hak-ka no disrespect i'm still your servant O'GREAT ONE.

[qy]

I don't think that the admim. is here to block feedback. You asked for feedback and you got what you deserved. Sui and Cloud, you guys always show up at the same place at the same time , how odd.....

If the admins attention should be called to anyone it should be your multiple personalities.

I don't think you (your collective ) really want any real feedback. This is a silly topic, and if you really do think that your Mabo is that great, then you(the collective you) have fun.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

El Paso is the great entrance to the great state of TX. Long Live El Paso!!!

[MoQ]

...that have shown no respect and can't expect to receive any...

Drop the false humility, it actually deadens your stiletto wit. The illiteracy isn't an act though is it?

I didn't know Ma Bo was such a hakka secret...LOL

[CLOUD 1]

To be presumed we are the same person i am honoured. But to tell you the truth there are things you mention in your posts that I have not experienced yet.

Ban pu, there is not much you can say on this subject. I believe that ban pu is felt(experienced) rather than thinking about. How can you describe what is Love for example.

Is ban pu in any of the forms you practice?
I have only felt ban pu in Lap-Sau.

Please do not be that harsh with your reply, cause I might not be able to take it.(Ha Ha).

From a beginner just like you.

Oh one other thing. Is it what you do in those hours not how many hours you practice count when taking up Kung Fu?

[meltdawn]

I'm taking "ma bo" to mean stance training here.

I would have to say FOUNDATION is of primary importance. From there things develop. Foundation includes balance, aligned body mechanics and strategy. Thus, for a "stance" to be effective (accomplish the purpose of developing root), it must be balanced, the body must be in the correct position for the desired result (mechanics) and the meaning of the position must be understood (strategy). Study the difference between northern ma bu and southern. VERY different.

Hand strikes accomplish nothing unless the practitioner understands his balance and can drop his center of gravity AND learn to become mobile. Only then can he understand that from gripping the ground comes force, from turning the waist comes direction, and through the appendage comes release. Then as in the whip, it all comes back. Simply put, using the ground for leverage. If the practitioner has no balance, he will never be accurate. If he hasn't correct body mechanics, he will lack power. And if he doesn't have strategy, he doesn't have a brain.

Meltdawn

cloud1, sorry i took a while.

to answer your question on what leg forward to take the arm out. that would be first depends on what hand he throws and if you want to cause the most damage( dim ma , dim yue).
also it depends on if you attack using the c/line theories opening or closing, and of course your follow up technique. usually the right hand inward smash with the right leg because you attack the left side of the body of your attacker.(more deadlier)

i hope this helps
peace

[sui-fuw]

1st of all,please,i am only a begginer,honestly please don't build me up,as i can't live up to those expectations(ask moq,he is the true great one on this forum,i wish he would accept me as his student)
your pulling my leg("you have not experienced yet").
your "ban-pu"true.
my "ban-pu"is i'll follow your lead,and connection?
"oh one other thing"i would agree on th first one "naturally"i've tried to answer, this trick question.


meltdawn
2nd part well executed?we haven't finished our little banter yet,as fat head ROSS got offended,i hope you didn't get offended,but very offended?i think the score is 1-0 to you.
fancy picking on a begginner,like me.

come on cloud 1, tell me your secret?if you can't
because of great kung-fu MASTERS like moq,then type in hak-ka if you can??ha ha i'll try to work it out.

[CLOUD 1]

Hi ya Sui Fuw,
Thanks for the reply. Once again you have gone over my head.
What makes you think that I am Hakka nyin?
on this thread there has been a mention on ''gripping the floor'' in your opinion is this a concious, sub-concious, both or none of the above decisions you make when you practice Ma bo?

Meltdawn,
Nice to see you don't take things personally.
Could you tell me the main differences in Ma bo between Lung Ying and Pak Mei?
I wish people took your advice that a strong tree only comes from strong roots. This applies to all aspects in life?
Has your training taken you to 'Sight beyond Sight'?

Pu fook, Pu Fook /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[meltdawn]

From Sui-Fuw:
"meltdawn
...we haven't finished our little banter yet,as fat head ROSS got offended,i hope you didn't get offended,but very offended?i think the score is 1-0 to you. fancy picking on a begginner,like me."

Do I know you? I seem to recognise the poor grammar, lack of sentence structure and *******ised punctuation... but I distinctly thought this was a different thread.

From Cloud:
"Meltdawn,
Nice to see you don't take things personally."
I do, but I have this amazing ability to ignore stupidity. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Could you tell me the main differences in Ma bo between Lung Ying and Pak Mei?"
Sorry, I can't get into detail of comparison because I don't practice bak mei. Kevin Barkman and Mantis108 would be excellent choices of whom to inquire.
"I wish people took your advice that a strong tree only comes from strong roots. This applies to all aspects in life?"
Don't forget, the roots are strong and the tree is supple. It must be able to bend and snap back, like a willow in the wind. I do believe one can and should live their life like in practice. This is an excellent idea for a new thread!
"Has your training taken you to 'Sight beyond Sight'?"
No, I'm just trying to be the Quizats Haderach (sp?). /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Meltdawn

[CLOUD 1]

Please excuse me you should have said we were in the company of Royalty /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I am too unworthy to reply to you.

farewell my lady but I am dune with you!!!

[LIN Q]

In response to your original question Cloud 1, the importance of stances can't be exspressed enough.Without a firm foundation the hand techniques are useless , might as well be doing Wing Chun. With gripping the ground you are activating you Kidney 1 point .If stance work is a regular practised the hand work is greatly benefited . Good to see some real discussion happening.

[CLOUD 1]

You mentioned Wing Chun. Do you have any experience with this? The Wing Chun that I have seen also stress the importance of Ma Bo. Sil Lum Tao is practiced for two hours without taking a break. This is done for a year or so, then the second form;Chum Kieu, which trains Ma Bo also.
The third form Biu Ji can only be taught when you have an understanding of Ma Bo to be effective.
Wooden dummy forms also help with Ma Bo.

[sui-fuw]

hi long time no chat.
i have a hunch you are hak-ka,probably married to a cantonese lady?i could be wrong.
gripping floor?i know what your asking,but does a human have claws?it can be immetated i suppose,but not well i must add.
ma-pu(ma-bo)sub-concious or concious?
you see this is the question i beleive?as for gripping is a technique.
care to answer the question above?also,how have you studied ban-pu,through lap-sao?what is this to you?

have you practiced wing-chun lately?

[CLOUD 1]

Sui Fuw,
Well done, your hunches are quite correct.
I know nothing of Ban Pu. I haven't practiced Wing Chun for ages. I am very lazy.
Ban pu is probably one of the hardest things to explain. There must be unlimited possibilities.
What have you experienced in Ban Pu? Can it be practiced solely?
I am only learning to stand at the moment.
What of your training? Have you learnt to retreat yet? Please don't speak in riddles, it takes me ages to figure out. Thanks.

[sui-fuw]

hi,you keep refering that i speak in riddles.i must apologise,as i'm not aware of this.
the answer to your questions are very simple,as i;ve said before,they are inside you,my experience's of ban-pu are not valid to you.ask your si-fu,see if you can practise it solefully?
aren't we all trying to stand?i just keep trying to stop falling also,if thats any consulation.
"learnt to retreat"i haven't learnt a **** thing yet.
anyway i was hoping you could shed some light on the subject,please be free to speak,i won't judge you honestly. i know less than you i'm sure.

[CLOUD 1]

If you know less than me then you are a master, to me.
Do you teach for a living?
If you do then I bet you have made a good one at it.
What is it that you teach? I still haven't figured that out yet.
Why all the secrets? What have you got to hide?

[sui-fuw]

i'm a master of what? wiping my bottom.
no.i'm not qualifide to teach.
my style? keep thinking.i have no doubt you will work it out.
why secrets?there are no secrets,no answers only questions that hold the universe.find the harmony that binds it together?

[CLOUD 1]

Could you please tell me Sui Fuw.

What is meant by ''whilst defending have one foot on the floor, one foot off'' ''whilst attacking have both feet on the floor''?????

What is the connection between MaPu and Kung Fu?

[sui-fuw]

1st of all,can i feel the floor?before i can distiguish "1 foot on floor 1 foot off" ect.

the connection between "ma-pu and kung-fu" is obvious its "and" isn't it?

tell me,your ma-pu,how do you defend with your right leg leading(from 2 mtre gap)eg would you "entry",take right leg back,what would you do?

[CLOUD 1]

it sounds like you can fly Sui Fuw!!!
Well can you feel the floor?
Is it that obvious, if it is then what is it?

Why would I need to be defending?

to answer your question I would be defending in a neutral stance, left leg forward, right leg forward, sitting down, lying on my bed asleep, meditating, not meditating. Has that answered your question.
If you asked F.T or B.B the answer would be to attack first. Do you agree?

sui fuw- whats wrong with you lately, your talking sh!t. pardon my expression.

i cant beleive that you guys continue this crap, really. if you feel that the opponent is invading your space just attack. but dont be set up or faked out.

peace

[lungyuil]

we have alot of stance work in our training. for new students, on their first night my sifu makes them do 15min of horse stance.
in our gradings we are required to do horse stance for 45min at the end.
stances are very important. you need to be able to move with alot of speed. proper stances help to generate the power, rise/fall etc.
so yes stances are an important part of our training.
we practice 1-10's up and down our gwoon in every stance possible including the use of hand techniques. our sifu follows us up & down (1 at a time) trying to get us to increase our speed and floating.
fubokuen is right, your toes must grip the ground.not at all times but yes they grip. that is how we train.

[sui-fuw]

yes,i yield.
o.k i retreat, got me fair and square.
your wisdom is far superior(i mean it)i would like to meet this cloud 1(but how many clouds are there?)
no i don't agree of attacking first.

f.t our k.f is very different.i'm more of a pacifist.
i believe in"protect oneself,then maybe strike"now,but before i became mercifull,i struck first.

[CLOUD 1]

Thanks for your sarcasm. If I were wise I wouldn't be on this Forum but doing something more constructive with my time.
I don't understand what you mean How many?
What are you getting at? (5)

Are you talking from experience when you say you wouldn't attack first?
If that is the case then you have come a long way in your Kung Fu.

[sui-fuw]

i mean i agree in not attacking fist,not that i don't attack first.i have not become the man i shall become.

siu fuw,
i dont go around beating people up, but if trouble comes my way and i cant get out of it/ or walk than right there im straight in hammers and phoenix eye are flying. most times when talking your way out of a fight gets you into one, so go ahead and smash if the thug is harrassing you. there wouldnt be any trouble if you didnt start it.
cloud 1
why cant you attack first, do you think not attacking first is superior to counter attacking.?

peace

[sui-fuw]

o.k i respect what your saying,however you say thug,now if it was a k.f practitioner like myself would you strike first?because i've been taught to be relaxed and not to eager to strike you first.
why? maybe, if you show me an opening in your on-gaurd stance,lets just say,you might want me to strike there,so you can "block,counter"and me ending up on the floor.and thats why i don't strike you first.
instead,you strike first and i'll counter,simple, wouldn't you agree?

sui fuw
if i was to attack first, of course this would leave a opening in my guard - but my other hand is protecting this opening. if i struck first dont you think that i would already have the follow-up and a counter attack ready? when learning kung fu your forms teach you when attacking that the other hand is countering. i do not know about your art or what you learn, but this is how i was taught. just dont be set-up or faked out.

also attacking first gives you correct mindset. when i mean attacking first - is to make contact first, even if the opponent has made a move first.

there is no such thing as defense, only attack.

peace

[sui-fuw]

now were talking...
if you struck first,iwould move up 1 to your off side,cut in the centre line,therefore your other hand couldn't rescue the attacking hand,because the distance is minamel, i would be at an advantage and you'll be off balance.it also wouldn't matter if you faked my ma-pu would be fast enough to supress your arms.yes i would be in very close quarters range.

sui fuw
im not just standing there man! do you think that i would let you go outside, your centerline would be cut off from me attacking, ever think that i might be on your outside smashing away.

see ya /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[This message was edited by fierce tiger on 10-20-00 at 09:16 PM.]