why did leung jan do challenge matches?

[wingchunalex]

Why did leung Jan do challenge matches?

Did he feel it was important to prove wing chun as a fighting art?

Does that say anything about him?

If he felt it was important to prove wing chun as a fighting art, is it important for us as modern day wing chun practitioners to prove wing chun as a fighting art?

If so how do we go about that?

If it is not important to prove wing chun then why?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
[snip]....Makes you wonder if all these masters were undefeated who the heck they won against :) ...[snip]

The best fighters fight only battles they can win. That's why they are undefeated.:D

[wingchunalex]

what about proving wing chun's fighting ablity, for us as modern wing chun people.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
what about proving wing chun's fighting ablity, for us as modern wing chun people.

As a modern WC practitioner, I think I don't have to fight challenge matches to prove that WC can be used in a real fight. You should avoid a fight/brawl as best you can. Only when your life/love ones/property is in danger should you resort to fighting. Fighting (using WC) should be the last resort. Even if you win the fight, you could still be the loser because you could land in jail.

[wingchunalex]

so if wing chun is only to be used in self defence. then it is not to be used in competitive fighting/sparring where it can be proven.

if other martial arts can be used in competitive fighting why can't wing chun? wing chun is a fighting art isn't it?

If wing chun is not a flowery art for show, and its not a fighting art when many martial arts are (bjj, traditional karate, etc), then is it solely for self defence?

can it be used for fighting/sparring?

in my experience it can be.

and if wing chun is only for self defence then how is it proven that it works for self defence in today's world if it is not used to fight?

(im making a distiction between self defence and fighting, in fighting you don't have to chop the guy in the throat, poke out his eye, and break his knee and elbow)

[Wingman]

Of course, WC can be used in sparring or in competitiions. It is up to the individual when and where to use it. I for one, spar with friends from other martial arts. But sparring does not prove anything. It is just a part of my training. Sparring is one way to open my eyes to other methods of fighting that other martial arts can offer. With sparring you can figure out the strengths and weaknesses of other martial arts. Sparring also points out WC's strengths and weaknesses against these other styles.

Sparring with other styles can be a learning experience. But it is no way to prove that WC is a fighting art.

As for MA competitions, it depends on what kind of competition. NHB fights are closer to reality than point sparring. If you really feel that you have to prove something, then competing in these tournaments is a "safe" way in doing it. I say "safe" because you will not land in jail. Another reason is, if you are injured, there are medical professionals standing by.

[wingchunalex]

thats true that you don't know for sure if you can win a fight. but i would at least hope that sparring tells me wheather i am likely to be able to block a punch, and different kinds of punches than you find in chi sau.

so yeah, i basically agree with you wingman

ps- wingman i like your signature message

[nvisblfist]

all the above is interesting. Who stands the better chance, The you who only practices forms and drills, or the you who does sparring in addition to the aforementioned?

Sounds like wing chun is the art of fighting without fighting, ie suppressing the human desire to prove that you are better than another, and moving to the level of being self assured and in control of your ego. Those who know don't show, those who show don't know.

[Allison]

I thought about this issue myself and realized that each master had it's own place with his own people. When they say that someone was undefeated I understand that it is inside the school.
Usually master wouldn't go to fight other masters, but when a student defeated the master this meant that the new student is the new master. I read a little about Bushido (http://www.bushidocodeclub.com/) and it seems that this is the logic of being undefeated

[sanjuro_ronin]

Someone once said that, undefeated means you haven't fought the right person yet.

In reality it doesn't matter what any given person in any given MA did or can do, its what YOU can do.
Sometimes fighters are succesful in SPITE of whay they do, not because of it.
Natural talent and all that.
Other times its a question of picking the right fights.

Remember, the Gracies were undefeated until they became "public" annd there system was no longer a "secret".

[LoneTiger108]

so if wing chun is only to be used in self defence. then it is not to be used in competitive fighting/sparring where it can be proven.

if other martial arts can be used in competitive fighting why can't wing chun? wing chun is a fighting art isn't it?

If wing chun is not a flowery art for show, and its not a fighting art when many martial arts are (bjj, traditional karate, etc), then is it solely for self defence?

can it be used for fighting/sparring?

in my experience it can be.

I guess us UK practitioners will find out soon eh, as Alan Orr has a competition lined up for SENi08 http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/images/chisauindex.html :)

It's actually good to see someone trying to gather people together, so I wish this event every success.

Still, Leurng Jan just 'fought' his opponents apparently, out boxing them technically and strategically. And obviously, once he beat the life out of you, he restored your health with accupuncture and TCM. Ah! To be in the old days! :D

Back then the idea of Chisau was still a very big mystery and not intended for the competitive arena, so I'm told...

[anerlich]

what about proving wing chun's fighting ablity, for us as modern wing chun people.

I can't see how the quasi-legendary exploits of someone who lived a century or more ago helps that cause.


Usually master wouldn't go to fight other masters, but when a student defeated the master this meant that the new student is the new master.

One of the better brown belts got a submission out of my black belt BJJ instructor while rolling last night. By your logic, the brown belt should now take over the school and that makes no sense.

Andy Rod****, among many others, has been quoted as saying he learns more from losing then from winning. If you can beat everyone on your block, it's time to move further afield if you want to keep improving.

[Satori Science]

yes that's basically what i said

however i also noted that whenever you hear about WC against MMA in NHB tourneys you hear them getting beaten down :)

then ppl always say "oh that guy wasn't really proficient in it anyways"

how do we know the MMA guy was any good either? maybe he was the worst of the lot ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpnq95UbUJw