Calling all Bak Fu Pai practitioners!!!

[Teet Lohan]

I am a new member to this forum, I have been a little hesitant to join this forum because of all the arguing about Bak Fu Pai and everything else. I wish to discuss Bak Fu Pai in a humble manner. If this is going to take place I think the first thing all of us need to do is decide on some kuens to discuss. So lets all give at least two forms that we would like to discuss on this forum. We also need to tell our background in order to keep it real.

Forms-Leen Kuen, Gow Bo Kuen, Ying Jow Sup Jee Lo Wan Kuen.
Background-I am a student of Shifu Max Gerber.

isnt max gerber a x lacy...
eagle claw 10 attack returning fist,9 step fist or 9 step push? continues fist ihink you mean not, sure how you are saying it.

is this guy the white lotus....

they sound like bak mei forms, didnt doo wai learn under cheung lai chun and didnt he say he have a more pure version.(lacy wrote this in a artcle in a magazine)

fierce tiger - pure bak mei pai.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

isnt max gerber a x lacy...
eagle claw 10 attack returning fist,9 step fist or 9 step push? continues fist i that what you mean, not sure how you are saying it.

is this guy the white lotus....

they sound like bak mei forms, didnt doo wai learn under cheung lai chun and didnt he say he have a more pure version.(lacy wrote this in a artcle in a magazine)

fierce tiger - pure bak mei pai.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[billy_pilgrim]

Teet Lohan,

I understand your hesitancy. I am always willing to discuss Bak Fu Pai, but as you have seen in the past, it usually degenerates into a shouting match. It didn't take long for someone to come along on this thread casting dispersion and citing Lacy...and this always seems to happen. Nevertheless, I'll give it a shot.
I would like to discuss Chong Bo Kuen. I think that too often students of MA's view beginning material as something they must get through so that they can get to the "good stuff", like they are paying their dues. Chong Bo Kuen is the good stuff. Certainly there are forms that are more complex in nature and that hone a different kind of energy, but this does not lessen the importance of Chong Bo Kuen. I have been doing this form for over three years and the energetic effects this form is capable of never cease to amaze me. Study this form! Anyway, that is just my humble opinion. I am a three year practicioner and do not claim to be anything more.

[billy_pilgrim]

fierce tiger,

Lacy does not represent Bak Fu Pai. I don't think you will find anyone associated with the system who will claim that he does. I can tell you that I have viewed videos from Lacy, and what he sells is not Pai material. At least, not what little I saw. Perhaps an article or two of his is sprinkled with the truth, I don't know, but on the whole, I would say that your best bet would be to completely disregard anything associated with the man. Thanks.

[Teet Lohan]

Greetings Billy Pilgrim, good to hear from you. Chong Bo Kuen is a very distinct form. I have been practicing this form for some time too and I really notice that the more one practices it, the more he or she creates ging. It is short and effective. It may not be as complex as other forms such as Eagle Claw Ten Hook Return Fist, nevertheless it is an amazing ging producing form. Do you practice it every which way you can? With phoenix eye fists and tiger palms, I try to. I think with Bak Fu Pai and any martial art the practitioner must adapt. Lets talk some about Chong Bo Kuens applications Billy. Fierce Tiger I have to say that I do not wish to discuss Lacy because he is not Pai. Thanks.

[Fubokuen]

Your words on the Chung Bo Kuen are pure wisdom.
The other night the GM referred to it as the key to mastering the system and yet few people even know HOW to do it or WHY. Will you do me a favor and email me and tell me about yourself?
fubokuen@hotmail.com

Fierce Tiger- Teet Lohan may have got a short tape of Lung Ying Leen Kiu from Max Gerber last year. It is a Bak Fu Pai training form. The Gau Bo Joon is probably from a bootleg of some super8 film Doug Wong shot in the 70's and the other is from the Lacy Bootlegs too.

[billy_pilgrim]

Teet Lohan,
Yep, you got it about the ging associated with Chong Bo Kuen. Do this form when you are tired and it will wake you up! Better than coffee. I love it.

Fubokuen,
Glad to see that you are posting again
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
In the past, you have always been a valuable source of information for all things Pai related and I thank you for that.

Wow, look at this, 8 Bak Fu Pai posts and no sign of "Word"(knock on wood)! Oh, yeah...school's back in session /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[billy_pilgrim]

One more thing I forgot to mention...
The importance of doing Chong Bo Kuen (or any form) slooooooowly and meditatively cannot be minimalized. There is a place for both teeth clenching intensity and raw power, as well as slow, thoughtful form practice. There is a wealth of Kung Fu in this form waiting to be unlocked by treating it as a moving meditation.

fu bo kuen- thanks for your post

i have read the bfp history and i like very much, can you tell me please are there any relationship between bfp and bmp. chong bo, jik bo all develop the basic ging for these styles ,they are to be done slow and gradually fast.it develops correct postures...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fubokuen]

Fierce Tiger- According to most references you'll find, our founding monk escaped to O'Mei Shan WITH Bak Mei. Some I've seen tell of fraternization on Modong/Wutang mts. too.

[Fubokuen]

Here is a new site for those interested in White Tiger Kung Fu (http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com)

This is not my site, but it's just online, so I'm calling attention.
I can answer most of your Bak Fu Pai questions, feel free to email.
fubokuen@hotmail.com

[This message was edited by Fubokuen on 10-03-00 at 12:50 PM.]

[MoQ]

But very little info about the nature of White Tiger OR that 108 Dragon Palms. Why would the White Tiger monk have that "Mew Hing(Miu Hin)" material?

good question moq
also white lotus ,mew hing red lotus plus every other system lacy has put on.
(no disrespect but lacy seems to have lots of info) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fubokuen]

Fierce Tiger- Lacy steals from everywhere and groups material together according to his ridiculous "5 Elders" theory and then pretends to be everyone's Master.

He has alot of stolen material on video, but he knows nothing about it and so the "stories" come in. He has absolutely no idea as to the nature of BFP and his phoney "18 Daoist Palms" is the name of the first form of Mew Hing's 108 Lung Jeung.

He has a completely disjointed collection of bootlegs from many sources, but he tells a story and people redo forms for him that he doesn't even know. It is not at all a "system", but he probably has no idea what that means. He is just a con man, pure and simple.

The Monk had Mew Hing's material similar to the Lau Gar within Hung Gar, seems MH died with no heirs. Apparently MH material does not utilize the BFP(crouched) posture, so I personally don't see the point of interest. Perhaps it's used to keep certain people at a distance?

[MoQ]

...This Lacy is an amazing conman or alot of people are amazingly stupid. He says alot, it must be true! However, nothin' he says checks out, none of the names he drops are associated with him.

[Shaolin Master]

It seems that I have to agree with most It does not Seem there are any adequate white tiger schools out there that have improvised on a few basics or mixed what they know with something else.

So Commercialised so sad.

2 of the forms mentioned are not white tiger and they do sound like Bai Mei more. The first is only a basic and there are not that many routines in white tiger from the original.

[MoQ]

What does a Songshan Shaolin "monk" know about White Tiger forms or anything else? Why pretend to?

[Shaolin Master]

Do not Ass u Me anything !

Songshan Shaolin is different in its own right.

Watch and learn (Fujian Shaolin Lineage):

Fujian Shaolin Lineage

Master Monk Hui Ching
Master Monk Xing Liang

Taught

Abbott Shi Gao Ceng

Taught

Cheong Meng Ju

Taught

Li Bin Ching

Taught

Shi Chan Long

Thank you that is Fujian Shaolin Lineage Separate to silly Shaolin Do and recognised by Songshan Shaolin (See Shaolin Temple 40 Boxing Manuals History of Monks and Disciples) Currently but the arts are totally different nowadays (shaolin to Fujian).

Each Master in the lineage mastered many different systems especially after the monks, White tiger was through the Ermei Shan System which includes fire dragon and other silly named things. Instead of mixing with bai mei/dragon/family styles it was allowed to remain away from the guangdong/hakka influences although admittingly some basic training methods may have been mixed with ermei styles, though the specialisation focus through the monkhood usually keeps systems purer than through the general populace. Especially triad and rebellious societies.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

This is solely the pure fujian shaolin lineage.
Should you require further details just ask /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fubokuen]

This is very nice for you to have all this knowledge of the original Fujian White Tiger system! Can you give an example or tell us more? No one in the hakka-poisoned version is going to understand your Mandarin terms, but give us a chance. Do you have any history, like how did it get to "Ermei"?

BTW, those first two forms mentioned above are typos and do not exist. It should be Lung Ying Leen Kiu and Kau Bo June.

[Shaolin Master]

Who is the founder of White tiger ?
Where did the founder go after the temple ?
If you answer these two questions I shall elaborate. This is to show that you know the origins of your art ! (Hint : Bai Mei and white tiger's founder went together maybe /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Til soon

Shi Chan Long

PS : If want cantonese I can but canton pin yum not so good.

[billy_pilgrim]

ShaolinMaster,

I am no Master, like yourself, but I'll share what little I know...

The art I practice, Bak Fu Pai, originated at Fukien, was taken out of the temple by our founding Monk, Fung Do Duk to E'mei. Here, it underwent extensive revisions as Fung Do Duk became a Daoist and incorporated various Daoist concepts into his art. The DAOIST System of Bak Fu Pai was passed to Doo Tin Yin, and was kept in the Doo Family for generations. I practice the system as I was taught from Disciples of Doo Wai, the current Grandmaster. That is what I mean by Bak Fu Pai. Now then, if you are saying the system is not "real", I would certainly like to know how you know. Furthermore, I would like to know why a supposed "Shaolin" Master would know so much about a Daoist fighting art???? If you are saying that the Daoist system of Bak Fu Pai does not look like the Fukien/Buddhist original, well, I would be very surprised if it did. What are you saying exactly? What of GM Doo's art have you seen, when and where? Don't be afraid to name names, you won't hurt any feelings, I promise. Anxiously awaiting your response...

[Fubokuen]

Since it's Mandarin we're using(strangely)...
Feng Tao Tak
Kwong Wei on Ermeishan with Bai Mei
or perhaps Wutang first.
After Taoist robes assumed there's much travel.

[Fubokuen]

I've answered your questions can you please elaborate? Tell me something distinctive of your Fujian Bai Hu Pai?

[qy]

Your story sounds very familiar? Shaolin Master is quite the nickname, how did you get that one? I am interested to hear more of your "Tales of Shaolin and
other various arts........." /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

El Paso is the great entrance to the great state of TX. Long Live El Paso!!!

[Shaolin Master]

Unfortunately, qy
I do not know much about Su Kong's now indonesian shaolin Do. All I know is that they are not recognised by the PRC Shaolin Temple. Also that they practice many forms but may not necessarily practice the essentials of a style like the different posture, basics, principles theories of each. Though it may be effective It is difficult to swallow.
When I list the systems they are those connected but everyone specialises in different things. The most forms that a ASI student would do/master is around 50 if they are lucky and that is after quite a long intense training time encompassing many many years.
Also, the forms and the number of them for each do not seem compatible in any way.
I do not doubt Su kong's lineage but I think it is possible that it has been over-done. As in Fujian shaolin not many forms were practised as such, most importantly skills and techniques essences were most valuable. forms in their volume today are an after creation.
For example original shaolin form too difficult lets make a more simple one or two, then oh the third form is much harder than the second lets add a form in between to allow a student to progress.....etc etc so instead of practicing basics/techniques and then one or two forms linking them all up each taking years to Master. Under a school situation it easier to have many forms that progressively develop skills gradually. Thus development of systems like now. Thus it is via this reason that a lot of styles have a lot of forms. Not to mention each master creating their own addition.
Lastly, Xin Yi Quan, Pakuazhang etc have a very different encompassing theory altogether and my Wudang/Internal arts teacher Zhao Hau Wei (Longmen Pai) explained concepts that were radically different to shaolin and I find hard to accept that in Fujian shaolin such methods would form part of the curriculum of Su kong
But Anyway I'm not to judge that is the way it was explained to me in my youth.

One day I may see Shaolin Do and judge for myself. But all the same it is probably still a very effective martial art and has the right to their place in the world

Peace and happiness to all

Shi Chan Long

[Shaolin Master]

My greetings and respects to you.
No real BFP : Please do not misunderstand my meaning is that the names of forms are so intertwines with those of Bak Mei & Long Ying that it seems as if they have all been muddled up (don't become offende).
Bp I have not seen BFP of the Doo family personally but my teacher Li Bin Ching had outlined to me simlarity between it and Bak Mei saying that the power generation and stepping is similar yet the attacking lines differ. Anyhow in our BFP counterpart = Bak Fu Kuen(Bai Hu Quan) there are only 5 routines only 3 of which are original(to our knowledge) and the fifth being the 3 of the original is very long and is named Bai Hu Quan. All others have differing names.
Regarding Buddhism/Taoism in Ermeishan both religions are practised and sharing was common. As most chinese no Chinese Buddhism and Taoism though different share the same goals of enlightenment. If you visit ErmeiShan one day you will see how each system is different.
Anyway busy will write more later.

Regards my friends and be gentle do not become defensive we will discuss slowly in the benefit of all of us. I mean to offend no one only to extract, share and understand information

Til Soon

Shi Chan Long

[billy_pilgrim]

ShaolinMaster,

No offense taken. I can only speak as to GM Doo's system, which was the system his ancestor received from our founding monk...and even about that my knowledge is woefully lacking, but I'm still learning /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
A LOT has gone into the Bak Fu Pai that has been preserved by the Doo Family. I don't believe anyone in our Pai would claim that we practice the original Fukien White Tiger, what we have, and what we practice is the art that was created by Fung Do Duk. Using the original as a base and then adding to it as his knowledge increased. In many ways this system parallels the development of Bak Mei, another Daoist system with Fukien roots. You are correct about the Daoist/Buddhist intermingling on E'mei and the dissemination of knowledge that took place amongst the camps. I just wanted to post so that I could, hopefully, clear up any misunderstanding, there is a lot of misunderstanding swirling around BFP because of some shady Kenpo Characters...
Again, any knowledge or info you have on the original Fukien White Tiger would be much appreciated. Perhaps, if you don't mind, you could discuss power generation so that we could see maybe where we are similar and where we differ in that arena...I realize a public forum is a pretty bad way to discuss something like that, but, maybe we could give it a shot!

[Fubokuen]

This is all very interesting to me. Will you please readdress the founder and Bak Mei issue?

Also, I would like to find out more of how your BFP "counterpart" differs from the Doo's Family version and anything else your teacher may have said about this subject, including the aforementioned "jumbling" of names. I HAVE noticed similarities in certain aspects of Bak Mei and not so much Lung Ying, moreso Jook Lum and Fukien Bak Hok actually. There are also glaring dissimilarities, so I wonder why the same sounding form names?