what do you guys think of kung fu?

[dezhen2001]

um... im expecting this to turn in to a bit of a troll fest but was just wondering...

coming from the read about the 2 guys who went in to a MMA competition doing kung fu and got crushed - what do you guys on this forum think about kung fu in general?

Have any of you sparred against people who train in good kung fu? If so what did you think of it? Do any of you guys train kung fu as well as some other skills (wrestling etc.)? How do you find it?

those who train in kung fu - what do u think the current state of CMA is in general? How cna it be improved? What do you think of the western/competitive MA skills etc.?

was gonna make it a poll but 1. cant think of what the options could be and 2. no one ever votes anyway :D

dawood

[KnightSabre]

I did kung fu for 5 years,
This includes Northern Long Fist combined with 5 Animals,
In this time I also did 2 years of Wing Chun at a different school.

Both schools are highly reputable,
The Wing Chun school especially,Sifu Steven Zippliers won the heavy weight full contact kung fu comps (not sure what the competition is called) in I think 1991 or 1992.

I enjoyed my kung fu immensely,I was always looking for new things though,I heard about an instructor that teaches JKD/Boxing and phoned him up for my free private lesson,after inquiring how long I had trained for we sparred,
I got the snot beaten out of me,it was one major wake up call to me,how can it be that after 5 years of training I didn't even put up a good fight.I was one of the best at my level at both kung fu schools.

I joined up and started training at both schools.
It got even worse when I was introduced to my first BJJ class,
I got tapped like a type writer by the smallest guys in the class,none of my Chin Na moves worked while I was on the ground,it was depressing.

After 6 months of training at both I had to choose,I found that I loved grappling more than anything else and so I decided to change to MMA.

I think I was more combat effective after one year with the boxing/BJJ combo than all 5 years in kung fu.
Now 5 years later and many challenge matches I have never lost to a traditional style,especially when I was alloud to take it to the ground.

I will admit,kung fu is more than just fighting, it can be a spiritual lifestyle,but honestly all I really wanted to do was learn how to fight.
I think that the Boxing/BJJ is leagues ahead in that aspect.

This is really no attempt to Troll,this is simply what happened in my life personally.

Four of my best friends still do kung fu and are now Si Suks.

[Leon]

KungFu ROX :cool:

[Sho]

In my opinion there is no line drawn between kungfu and other fighting arts. It all depends on the way a practitioner trains; whether or not it is for the sake of self-defence or the ring. If you want to be effective in the ring, well then baby you better focus on all aspects concerning the ring. You'll be crushed if you enter the ring unprepared. If you want to look good in demonstrations, train hard in forms. The only way to become efficient is to train hard.

[king chun]

Hey I train in wing chun kung fu (just started) and i think it is great. Its a realy cool martial art form and the techniques are really useful. After a whil of doing it you get to know the most appropriat technique for any situation. Anyway I have to go to a lesson now, I will post more later.

[Marky]

Hi all,

KnightSabre, I feel your pain with the "JKD wakeup call" thing. I've been training in wing chun for about four years now, but my teacher had trained in JKD for quite a while too.

I'm more of a math and physics person and so wing chun really appealed to me and I always dissect a martial arts technique based on it's effectiveness from a scientific standpoint. I will spare you the gory details, but in THEORY I find wing chun to be a very effective martial art. However, you NEED a teacher who has not been lulled into complacency!

I learned wing chun basics, then "JKD mentality", and now we just practice wing chun but I can (I think) look at it in a more realistic way. I guess the bottom line is that we have to remember that we can do anything another person can do, and we shouldn't become "slaves to a martial art". I had mentioned "JKD mentality" but in truth that existed long before Bruce Lee was even born.

Kung fu works very well, but more than the physical techniques, each art incorporates different mental techniques that (I feel) truly define the art. For example, I once saw a NHB match between a "wing chun guy" and a mixed martial artist. The wing chun guy waited for the MMA guy to come to him, then he performed a block, a punch, AND a kick at the same time. After seeing that, I was glad to watch him get beaten into mush! That's just one example of a martial artist learning mental techniques that don't match his art.

[Merryprankster]

I don't. It's all fighting. Some folks would like to make what they do special, but it's not.

The problem typically stems from training methods and training attitudes, not necessarily from the arts themselves.

[MightyB]

those who train in kung fu - what do u think the current state of CMA is in general? How cna it be improved? What do you think of the western/competitive MA skills etc.?

Kung Fu is in a state of improvement. Inactivity led to atrophy in MA in general, and we have to thank MMA and especially the Gracies for the wake up call.

In general, Kung Fu is weak right now. That's because it's kind've scitzophrenic. People aren't quite sure what they're supposed to be getting out of it, and, to make matters worse, the teachers aren't quite sure what they're supposed to be teachin'.

Knightsabre found that he got more out of a school that was really focused in it's intentions. Kung Fu could be that way, but that would require a fundamental shift in the teaching styles of most schools (less BS and tradition and more fight training)
and I think that's starting to happen. But, rather than being the established leader that kung fu thought it was, it's in catch up mode. None of this is new info. This is why JKD was created in the first place. Before that, Musashi talked about inefficiencies in traditional arts. And I'm sure that all of the styles started because of the same observation being made time and time again as it will continue in the future.

[Chang Style Novice]

In my view, real kungfu is too deadly for ringfighting. The guys at this event were clearly just frauds who had seen too many Bruce Lee movies. Bruce Lee himself wasn't a real kungfu master, because he adulterated his traditional training with weak, unneccesary methods such as boxing, weight training, and so on. Why, he didn't even get his complete system!

Furthermore, none of the real masters of kung fu would ever be interested in ringfighting, because they are too peaceful and enlightened for that. Few people know of these masters, because they do not seek worldly glory in the form of wealth or magazine covers. If a wrestler tried to shoot in for a double leg takedown on one of these men or women, they would find their force redirected back on themselves, and instantly knocked out by a blindingly fast blow from what would seem like an impossible direction. Alternatively, the master might simply prove so elusive that the wrestler would continually find himself grappling with empty air as the master mysteriously appeared behind him and out of reach. It's entirely possible that such a master might simply KO the grappler with kong jing from the opposite corner before the grappler ever got close, by projecting his qi!

Ummm...I think that about covers it. Can we close the thread down now?

[yenhoi]

I train kung fu, I sparr against other people who train kung fu, I havent experienced any problems.

I dont understand why anyone would be concerned about the 'state of cma'?

What the hell. If your kung fu is fine why would you want to improve others kung fu?

:confused:

[Felipe Bido]

Kung Fu sucks...

David Carradine wasn't even chinese, and what the hell was it with the slow mo fights?

[Suntzu]

I cant understand how events like UFC, King of the cage, blah blah blah are measuring rods for the effectiveness of 'kung fu'… good 'kung fu' is the result of GOOD training… if u do forms 3 days a week and maybe a few 2-man drills, some touch sparring…you may not have what it takes to get in the ring, cage or out the bar in one complete recognizable piece... its not kung fu that sucks its the pummeled individuals kung fu that sucked... train harder... or just accept being a rec player... and IMO as far as the spiritual aspects... go to church... sit under a water fall or something:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

I like Kungfu and I think it's as effective as any other art out there, however it seems that as of late there are alot of KF guys out there fooling themselves into thinking they are training properly to take on an attacker. Too much spiritual mumbo jumbo and instructors out there who really when it comes down to it don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
Wing Chun is know pretty well for it's "combat effectiveness" however most of the people who practice it, won't survive contact in the streets.

[rogue]

I've sparred 3 WC fellows and a small bunch of Yang Tai Chi players. Most of the WC suffered from a lack of free form sparring. When things fit their drills they were quite good, but if things moved into unknown territory they were lost. They had problems controlling the distance with the kickboxers and we all had problems with the ****ed judoka.

Of the tai chi players few knew how to use their TCC free form, most had never sparred. But those that had were good and had sparred were getting me into a lock or a takedown if I got in close. One had never sparred but did some pretty aggressive push hands, I definatly had to keep to the outside of him.

I think that San Shou will help the CMA a great deal. It'll modernize CMA training and give an unbiased forum for CMA to fight. I'd think with the striking and takedown skills those guys are developing they'd be a natural for MMA just by adding some up to date ground fighting.

[ShaolinTiger00]

An antiquated, poorly trained unrealistic conglomerate of “tricks” that lack the sensibility to adapt and improve because they are romantics who enjoy the fantasy that they are training as their ancestors did (false.)

Kung fu as a fighting style died at the Boxer Rebellion. Actually it was dead much earlier, but the massive killing just drove the point home!

[Felipe Bido]

Most Kung Fu styles are excellent. The problem nowadays is that most people don't want to train hard, the way it is supposed to be. They find more useful to learn about past masters, and chi tales.

I was surprised the first time I saw a bunch of Muay Thai guys training...****, they were kicking, and kneeing and elbowing, until they couldn't go on. It was like a military camp. I bet the pads suffer more than they do. You don't see that in 95% of the Kung Fu schools out there.

MMA guys are excellent fighters, because they train their asses off, practice what they preach, and test their skills everytime. Real MMA fighters are not afraid to admit their own weaknesses and work to improve. Only trolls and fanatics think that the style is superior, not the training.

Most MA traditionalists don't want to deal with the consequences of practicing fighting or real attacks. They only love forms to show off and get girls. That's why Royce (Amen!!) surprised the whole bunch of opponents by getting into the fight once the bell rang. He had the mindset of a real fighter. So much for being hopping around and throwing silly kicks.

If you practice Kung Fu, my advice is to train like hell, test it everytime, and you'll have a deadly style. Isn't that what you wanted in first place?

If you want to be spiritual, practice yoga.

[Oso]

I train and teach kung fu but have to agree with Merryprankster
and MightyB on most counts. Right now the mma arenas are
the closest to the real thing as you can get.

It's the way you train and use what you know.

You have to train realistically and until you either puke, bleed
or pass out.

Then you have to apply what you know in real life, morally and
ethically.

I was a bouncer for 7 years and applied what I new fairly
succesfully. Not to say I didn't screw up a couple of times but
that was me, not what I study. I've disarmed guys with knives,
tire irons, pool sticks and bottles and was later able to recall
what movements/techniques I used to do so and link it back
to specific training drills.

CSN, I hope you are mostly joking. I agree about Bruce Lee and
hold the opinion that Bruce Lee was probably ADD and couldn't
handle the slow approach most CMA systems use and didn't get
to more advanced training and theory.

As far as deadliness...I'm not sure what is more deadly than
being smashed to the ground and beaten senseless. Once you
are unconscious you don't have much of a defense. The mma
guys are training to accept a certain amount of punishment on
the way to the clinch then take you down and hurt you. Simple,
fast and effective. CMA IS playing catchup to that sort of training.
CMA has the ability to teach it's practitioners to take damage;
take the opponent down or out; and finish them if necessary.

I think CMA has to shake some of the mysticism and secrecy that
plagues it and get down to some training with what it has.

This is not to say that all CMA schools and teachers fall into this
category. But, if there were more CMA schools that trained to
fight and fight hard then we would see better represention in
fighting events from the CMA crowd.

all this is of course, just my humble opinion

Matt

[Suntzu]

he||… most anybody wont survive REAL contact in the streets… the GOOD FIGHTER(TM)… kin to the GOOD GRAPPLER(TM)… might survive the occassional bar fight or playground scuffle… but a crime committed by a criminal… that throws the rules away… gun, knife, pipe... cender block... car... talk about illusion... for the most part MA whether 'mixed' or 'traditional'... is now relegated to recreation... its just how far u wanna push it... exercise? forms? ring? cage? bar?the need to follow a spiritual leader?

[Suntzu]

Most Kung Fu styles are excellent. The problem nowadays is that most people don't want to train hard, the way it is supposed to be. They find more useful to learn about past masters, and chi tales. I was surprised the first time I saw a bunch of Muay Thai guys training...****, they were kicking, and kneeing and elbowing, until they couldn't go on. It was like a military camp. I bet the pads suffer more than they do. You don't see that in 95% of the Kung Fu schools out there exactly...
They only love forms to show off and get girls. :confused: It must be the PJ's…:confused: :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Suntzu
he||… most anybody wont survive REAL contact in the streets… the GOOD FIGHTER(TM)… kin to the GOOD GRAPPLER(TM)… might survive the occassional bar fight or playground scuffle… but a crime committed by a criminal… that throws the rules away… gun, knife, pipe... cender block... car... talk about illusion... for the most part MA whether 'mixed' or 'traditional'... is now relegated to recreation... its just how far u wanna push it... exercise? forms? ring? cage? bar?the need to follow a spiritual leader?

nicely said.

[Stranger]

It must be the PJ's…

They worked for Hugh Hefner.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by Stranger


They worked for Hugh Hefner.
:D :D the $$millions$$ didn't hurt either…

Ap - after getting beat on at full power for the past year… the mysticism tends to wear off… and reality becomes painfully obvious…

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ap - after getting beat on at full power for the past year… the mysticism tends to wear off… and reality becomes painfully obvious…

I'm so proud of you. *tear*

[Stranger]

the $$millions$$ didn't hurt either…

Ah yes, that critical ingredient that changes a man walking around in his pajamas from insane to desirable in the eyes of women.

[MightyB]

I don't think CSN was being serious, he's just tired of this kind've recurring thread.

Personally, I think that this kind of thread is good just by looking at how the answers are changing over time. In the beginning, there were a lot of excuses based on mysticism and make believe (much like CSN's post) and not enough accountability being taken for bad training. Nowadays, most people are agreeing that it's mostly poor work ethics and fanatical denial that's keeping some CMA in the dark ages, but most progressive schools are developing real combat effective skills based on their traditional school's foundation. That's what they were intended for in the past, and that's what they will once again be in the future. Right now we're just stuck in that luke-warm middle area where a lot of mistakes and progress will be made, it's just going to take some time to iron out the details.

Now, about Hef's PJs... (http://secure.hostasaurus.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=pdcom&Product_Code=PD-PE-130114&Category_Code=POC)

[apoweyn]

Ap - after getting beat on at full power for the past year… the mysticism tends to wear off… and reality becomes painfully obvious…

yeah. aren't relationships grand.

...

what?

kung fu?

oh.

er, yeah. d*mn right!

:)

[red5angel]

I don't buy that it has been mostly relegated to sport or recreation, or I should say, made obsolete by modern times. I have seen it come into play more often then not in too many fights. Sure if the guy has a gun then yes it becomes a moot point.
I think it has been relegated to sport for exctly that attitude and the others that were listed. I just get tired of hearing so called martial artist ramble on about spirituality or how much more in tune they are with the universe they are now that they are on the 5th form of some-fu. I am about thisclose to kicking the next guys a$$ who starts yapping at me about the death moves he learned way back when learning under some guy whoes name he can't remember.

[MightyB]

You should see my death moves that I learned a few years back from this guy... but I can't seem to remember his name but he was old and Chinese. :D

[red5angel]

MightyB, I think you hit something on dead on.

"but most progressive schools are developing real combat effective skills based on their traditional school's foundation. That's what they were intended for in the past"

I tihnk all the mysticism bs was a sign of the times. I think all the forms, all the drills etc.. were at some point tested through real or mostly real combat.
What cracks me up about CMA is that you hear all these stories about guys going out anf fighting :eek: really fighting and testing what they know in a fight :eek: but now a days all you get is alot of stuttering about being civil and not wanting to get hurt. What I hear is fear, enough to even stop a good portion of these guys from getting out there with some gloves and some light pads and going all out, see if what they have can pass the test.


MB - I think I owe you a few death move demonstrations at some point :mad: :D

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

well, i think suntzu has a good point in that while martial arts may once have been cutting edge technology for personal combat, that's no longer the case. those for whom personal combat is an issue have found other ways. primarily the military. and you obviously know their modern-day solutions to the question.

that leaves regular folks. they're the ones carrying the martial arts torch these days. so in a time when martial arts isn't the best tool for combat and martial artists aren't generally the combatants anyway, then the role has changed a bit. whether that role now focuses on recreation, spirituality (which i have no problem with, done in a not-insipid way), self defense (which is still a very different bag from military-style conflict), etc. is up to the individual, i suppose. but i agree with suntzu's point that the martial arts are relegated to a different position than before. for many of us, a far more casual one. if it were a military affair, the intensity of our training would be mandated by necessity. now, it's mandated by personal choice.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

I can go with the idea that it's not the 'cutting edge' of personal combat per se, after all, I would prefer my old Car 15 with all the trim and a few fragmentation grenades...... ;)
However, I still think if it were treated more seriously it could be a viable and really still is a viable way of defending yourself and others.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with the recreational aspect of it by any means. Unless of course you fool yourself into thinking your the walking embodiment of death itself after getting your purple belt at Sams Happy Hut of MArtial Arts..........

[MightyB]

I don't condemn a person for being afraid of fighting, heck, I commend them for it. But I can't understand why people are afraid to train hard or realistic. A lot of people are rec kung fuers and there's nothing wrong with that, but folks, if you're teaching, for God's sake make 'em sweat a little.

I like the comments about the reality of crime and MA. That's so true. Avoid thugs and criminals if you can. MA helps, but it's NO guarantee.

So how many of you are going to buy a replica set of Hef's PJs? (http://secure.hostasaurus.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=pdcom&Product_Code=PD-PE-130114&Category_Code=POC)

[Suntzu]

like I said bar fight and street scuffles… which is nothing more than adult playground fights… and I'm not deny'n GOOD KUNG-FU's (TM) effectiveness in those situations… but as far as KF for self-defense as far as CRIME goes… illusion… I know criminals and victims... sometimes in the same person... and if u can survive the 15 man( and a few girls ) bum rush... you were more lucky than skilled... and if u dodge bullets like NEO... than the director hasn't yelled CUT yet...

[apoweyn]

yeah, i think it's viable too. absolutely. but it's viable based on my personal choices.* not simply by virtue of it being a 'martial art.'

* and a health dose of dumb luck


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

bar fight and street scuffles… which is nothing more than adult playground fights

another really good distinction

[red5angel]

Suntzu, the clarification makes sense. I mostly agree. I might be the one fooling myself here but I think my martial arts will hold up in more situations I 'might' encounter then situations I won't, if that makes sense? But like I said, I am willing to admit I may be a fool here....



Ap - "yeah, i think it's viable too. absolutely. but it's viable based on my personal choices.* not simply by virtue of it being a 'martial art.'"

You wil have to excuse me I have been ill the last 4 days with a bad stomach flu so I am not all here can you clarify this?

[Suntzu]

But I can't understand why people are afraid to train hard or realistic. A lot of people are rec kung fuers and there's nothing wrong with that, but folks, if you're teaching, for God's sake make 'em sweat a little. Yessirrrr… but IMO as far as MA schools go… most people don’t wanna work hard… so in order to survive u gotta appeal to the folks that’s gonna pay the bills… I train in a converted garage… dues were cheap… no contracts… the instructor said he has to pay out of pocket almost every month to keep the place going... Dojo had nothing but animals training there... so pick your poison ( as a school owner )... financial sucess or a hardcore group of killers and breaking even if lucky...

[Suntzu]

but I think my martial arts will hold up in more situations I 'might' encounter then situations I won't, if that makes sense? oh I understand… when the bum rush comes I'm glad I have a lil knowledge on how to handle myself… I might break up one or two of 'em… but it will not be a pretty outcome…

[MightyB]

There may be a middle ground somewhere between realistic and still making money Sun Spoo Boy;)

When ones of you's finds it, posts it so's we can alls be rich-- and tough-- with lots of b!tches hanging all over us.

[Merryprankster]

Lloyd's found it.

[Suntzu]

I knew Mighty Monkey Balls was gonna start slingin' his crap at me sooner or later…

I have seen the middle ground… they had Kiddie Kick and endless forms… and a couple good azzkickers… and a few hotties… not sure how they're balance sheet looked… but I don’t think they were hurting… but it was TKD:rolleyes:... TKD keeps hotties :confused: it MUST be the PJ's :(

MP - stop advertising :eek: ;) :D :p

[apoweyn]

Ap - "yeah, i think it's viable too. absolutely. but it's viable based on my personal choices.* not simply by virtue of it being a 'martial art.'"

You wil have to excuse me I have been ill the last 4 days with a bad stomach flu so I am not all here can you clarify this?


i guess what i mean is that a person that takes martial arts classes, even for the long term, is only going to be as good as their training. what they actually do. if they do the conditioning, pound on the equipment, spar intensely, etc., then their training might be viable. but if the guy standing next to them, wearing the same uniform and the same belt, doesn't make those same choices, then there's less chance that his martial arts are going to be viable.

people tend to say "our style does this. our style specializes in close range fighting, so once i close distance on a taekwondoka, he's all mine." well, if your style does specialize in something, that suggests that much of your training will be devoted to it. and it's likely that you'll be better at it. so there's a correlation certainly. but it's still up to the person not to rest on the laurels of what the style supposedly does and actually put those things into practice.

not very profound, after all that. :)


stuart b.

[Losttrak]

Bah. Style vs Style pap... As good as you may be at any style, there is always that moment when you are unprepared, or ambushed, or injured from training etc etc that leaves you vulnerable. There are no new style-specific attacks under the sun. Even as a great fighter you are still subject to being run over, shot, mobbed by hordes of a$$hats. People trying to train for invincibility are grasping at straws. In the end, the ONLY thing you can control is how you face your end. Will your training allow you to die with dignity or whimpering as a little child?

[MightyB]

I'm curious Suns-o-b!tch... what's your usual weigh in?

(needed an excuse to say "Suns-o-b!tch")

[Merryprankster]

Sun Tzu--

What would it take to get you to come spar at Lloyd's? I'm serious. We've got some guys right in your weight class area that could use a great sparring partner.

[red5angel]

Ap- then it sounds like we might be in agreement, in general anyway. Training is definitely the key, a little bit of genetics, and a lot of luck and I think MA can carry you through most everyday occurences.

Suntzu, I agree there are situations where martial arts doesn't cut it, the bums rush is one of them, maybe. I hope that I can learn to do enough damage, and take enough damage, to hurt enough of them seriously, for the rest to have to think about it, the rest is up to fate I guess.
However, part of my martial arts training, the self defense side anyway, has always been to learn when to watch out for things such as the bums rush. It's not perfect, nothing is, but not being there is the best defense of all.

[apoweyn]

In the end, the ONLY thing you can control is how you face your end. Will your training allow you to die with dignity or whimpering as a little child?

er, my money's on whimpering like a little child, training or no. :)

[red5angel]

"er, my money's on whimpering like a little child, training or no."

I am sending you a pretty pink skirt you can do it in too......;)

[MightyB]

er, my money's on whimpering like a little child, training or no.
I'm going to cry like a beeyotch... I've got a lot to live for. ;)

[Suntzu]

What would it take to get you to come spar at Lloyd's? I'm serious. We've got some guys right in your weight class area that could use a great sparring partner. not much just a a day and a time...

er, my money's on whimpering like a little child, training or no. yeah… that’s safe $$$… bullets are hot and they hurt… timberlands are heavy and don’t require much training… and I'm not quite ready for the next chapter… there's a girl in my gym I wanna get next to…

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
"er, my money's on whimpering like a little child, training or no."

I am sending you a pretty pink skirt you can do it in too......;)


hey, if i get stabbed in the ribs or shot in the gut, you can put me in a sundress. and rest assured that i'll live up to precisely what you'd expect from a strapping six foot man in a sundress.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ok.

Lemme talk to Lloyd about it. A few of our guys have some fights coming up on the 8th, and I'm not sure he'll want them banging it out one week before hand...

[apoweyn]

Ap- then it sounds like we might be in agreement

oh, we generally are, i think.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

hey, if i get stabbed in the ribs or shot in the gut, you can put me in a sundress. and rest assured that i'll live up to precisely what you'd expect from a strapping six foot man in a sundress. :D :D :D

Lemme talk to Lloyd about it. A few of our guys have some fights coming up on the 8th, Me too... and again on the 28th... Feb is gonna be a painful month...

[norther practitioner]

Wow, some great responses here. See I would definitely have to say that I would fit into the rec. player. I will never say (well until I'm not) I'm a good fighter, better than some, but I know I'd get my arse handed to me in a lot of situations. I'm lucky, my training has helped me get through some tough spots, but I still didn't make all the right decisions. Kung fu has helped me get and stay relatively healthy. It helps me think, calms me down, has taught me how to hit things more correctly as to minimize injury to my self. I love doing forms, but by no means do I think they are the "key" to being some super human fighter, but I do think they can be a large piece to the puzzle. They are good for conditioning, and also good opportunity to think about footwork, and combos. The current state of Kung fu is mediocre here where I am just because I think a lot of people will talk and say oh, well yeah I study kung fu, a lot of people will either be like whatever or put them on a pedastal of sorts. The people who aren't forthcoming about how hard they actually train can def. give a bad rap of sorts. It all depends on how you are looking at it, I think its good for forms compotition right now, there are plenty of players out there. There are a few pretty good fighters around here, I've just been lazy about trying to get into any scene like that, and going back to what I said....I'm a rec. type of player.

It in some ways is unfortunate that the U.S. is so big, because if you had a lot of these chode teachers in a smaller space, I'd have to imagine there would be a certain amount of the mcdojo aspect taken out of the arts.

[red5angel]

Ap- I would hate to see you on the splatball field...... :)...

[Merryprankster]

northern,

It's actually a communications issue. It's hard to be an illegitimate BJJ school--not impossible, but hard. Why? Because we have an internet community that hunts these people down.

Eventually, you will reach a point where you have BJJ schools and everybody will know who the big boys are. I mean that some might be not so hot, but everybody will know who the big players are... kinda like the Big 6 in San Shou, or Fairtex in MT, Renzo, Machado, Lloyd, in BJJ, etc.

[Suntzu]

:mad: :cough:Big 7:cough:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
Ap- I would hate to see you on the splatball field...... :)...

don't worry. i don't wear the sundress for that. too easy to flash the dude behind me when i'm diving for cover.

stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

:cough:Oil Check Sun Tzu:cough:


I stand corrected....

[ShaolinTiger00]

lmao @ "oil check". I'll never forget the first time I heard that term (high school wrestling) and we wonder why grapplers get portrayed as romo.

[apoweyn]

no. we don't. ;)

[dezhen2001]

ummm... thanks for the posts guys, but thats not really what i was asking..

like i said it turned in to the usual vs. argument, but i was wanting to COMPARE training methods and experiences, especially with people who had done one and changed, or still do both... also find out what the current state of CMA is nowadays - especially in the USA.


Have any of you sparred against people who train in good kung fu? If so what did you think of it? Do any of you guys train kung fu as well as some other skills (wrestling etc.)? How do you find it?

those who train in kung fu - what do u think the current state of CMA is in general? How can it be improved? What do you think of the western/competitive MA skills etc.?

thanks! :D
dawood

[red5angel]

dezhen - "also find out what the current state of CMA is nowadays - especially in the USA"

Crap mostly. You have to dig through alot of garbage to find anything really worth studying, it's just most people don't want to expend the energy to put into it. hobbyist mostly. Some people say thats ok, but I think in some ways it's killing the martial arts, especially the classic arts.

[Suntzu]

all of this for the wrong discussion… well… I think we answered the second part pretty good…

Have any of you sparred against people who train in good kung fu? If so what did you think of it? they were good at what they did… I don’t attribute it to any style name or whatever… but they were good… they trained hard and it showed… they had weaknesses… but who doesn't…

Do any of you guys train kung fu as well as some other skills (wrestling etc.)? How do you find it?I would hope that I could classify as a "Kung Fu" guy… but it really doesn't matter to me… the only differnce I find with working out with other 'styles' is the focus… I worked out with Judokas… they focused more on throws and groundwork… I was/am weak in those area and was quickly enlightened... but a few of them i know i could kick the sh!t out of just like they could throw me on my neck and dislocate something... its all a different means to the same end... whats in a name... really...

[red5angel]

I alos have to agree with suntzu here, the one guy I have come across that really impressed me with his skill didn't have anything but alot of time and energy into his training.

[Suntzu]

I believe a lot of people a starstruck when it come to MA… mixed or otherwise… u train smart and hard… u will get results… no matter what it called or where it originates from… the debate shouldn't be about style vs. style… but training vs. training…

[dezhen2001]

u train smart and hard… u will get results… no matter what it called or where it originates from… the debate shouldn't be about style vs. style… but training vs. training…

exactly... thats why i was trying to highlight that to be good in anything you need to train.

Also i was wondering about the state of MA in general in the USA, as i dont think here in the UK its quite so bad in respect to the McDojo etc.

So how is the training different in regards to your kung fu experience and new methods? Is it just the sparring or what?

im just trying to get a reasonably on topic thread for a change :D

dawood

[norther practitioner]

red5angel,
I think that is one if not the biggest factor here. I work from 8-5:30 every day. It's hard enough just to get to class the 3-4 days a week I go. The guys who I have seen that really impress me do this for a living. Its comparing the recreationalist with the pros in some sense. Look at biking, skiing, baseball, any of those things.

The guys who I've sparred with, while some being much better, don't always impress me with a lot of things. With time I'd have to say that there aren't too many that I've seen that I couldn't see beating if I had the time to put into it (I'm actually changing my training schedule soon to try to get into this more again). Don't get me wrong, there are a few, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not that good, however it sometimes amazes me how some people really don't have that good of basics, or rely on some things way too much. I hate saying this because it sounds dumb and naive, but one of the better fighters around that I've (obviously) seen is my shirfu. He likes using his taichi alot, which is dope when he gets some throws in and the like.

I'd also like to say, there are a butt load of teachers now in the U.S. a lot with the questionable experience to be running a school and the like. It's crazy how many corner store dojos are going up still, even with the economy in a slump here.

As far as the other martial arts in my area, there are some pretty good grapplers (why I'm changing my schedule) around, haven't much experience with the wrestlers, or too many Karate, Kempo, or TKD in the sparring area of things, but from local tournies, I'd have to look around and say...eh...

[Arhat of Fury]

I would have to agree with suntzu and apowen. Traditional cma is more of a sign of the times. Ihave no doubt that cma was/is very effective to those that can train all day everyday and become really proficient. But nowadays people have jobs and other responsibilities that doesnt let them put that much time into it. They may stillbecome proficient, but no where near the proficiency of long ago. Its kinda like Michael Jordan has lost a few steps as he gets older, but at the same time, these were steps that no one else had.

If I was about to fight, I would want 5 years of MMA training as opposed to 5years of CMA training.

This being said all I have trained is CMA.

AOF:confused:

[No_Know]

"The problem typically stems from training methods and training attitudes, not necessarily from the arts themselves."

I thought that the arts were formed by using particular training methods and having particular training attitudes.

I do stuff based in what I understand to be Kung-Fu.

Hopefully I would not claim to be a Kung-Fu person because I think I should train better to do that. But for the sake of education...Whoever here has met me I tend to do Kung-Fu-y type things.

If Kung-Fu is about contacting and hurting, it also has to be about adapting to the situation.

I would be really reluctant to face-shot someone rushing me if I thought it might connect. With a base of Kung-Fu I could understand several other things. But hurting another...hopefully there is no Just cause.

Perhaps everything is learning and teaching. This might be Kung-Fu.

[red5angel]

NP - I understand why most people just don't have the skill they are capable of. Priorities and all that. Unfortunately what happens is someone sort of half a$$es training for 10 years, gets "through" their system, and then goes on to teach, so what happens is you end up learning not from someone who really has a deep understanding of the art, but someone who has just put in time. Just putting in time is not enough in my mind. You have to pay your dues, fight some, test what it is you learned.

The other thing is all these interpretations of arts sometimes are more of a bad thing then a good thing. In my experience it isn't that someone has found a better way, so much as found something that seems to work for them.

[KC Elbows]

This thread sucks a--

Sorry, wrong thread. My mistake.

[Suntzu]

In the US… McDojo's are every where… and as a classically trained accountant… it’s a good business move… there it lots of $$$ in hyperactive kids playing Kung Fu… and aging men/women wanting to stay in shape… and I really don’t see anything wrong with it... its a value for value trade... they pay for what they want... or think they want or want for right now... if they want something else... they stop paying or pay out there contract... that is business...
i think all of this CMA is going down the toilet is either from people that spent $$$ for something they didn't want and cant let it go(but i feel u time + $ is time + $) or they for some reason feel that "this is how it should be done" and just wont let others live... but i do feel sorry for those who live in an area surrounded by crap... but in that case get some friend and train yourself... hard... u never know u might be a sifu oneday... or not...

[Suntzu]

Just putting in time is not enough in my mind. You have to pay your dues, fight some, test what it is you learned. I agree… but just to be an azz… I mean play devil's advocate… maybe he's all about the forms???

[red5angel]

"maybe he's all about the forms???"

Well first I would have to ask why, and if his answer wasn't because they are a dancer and need some new moves or to get some excersise, I may just have to kick some ass. I have heard a few, a small few but it still out there, that the forms is all they need, and thats just plain dumb.

[Suntzu]

the wushu schools… for the most part all all about the forms… its all good tho…

[norther practitioner]

Just putting in time is not enough in my mind. You have to pay your dues, fight some, test what it is you learned.

No doubt, unfortunately, many "assume" too much. Many people hear that so and so has been in the arts for 25 years or even 7-8 years and figure that they have been through some tough training, etc.

All about the forms.
NP
what, there fun to me. It's not all I do.....lol :D I've actually started doing a (**** I'm going to get mamed for this) a contemporary wushu form, just for fun, and it is fun as hell. I still do just about the same amount of everything else as well, so I don't see it hurting, I'm not going to try to bust out an ariel in a fight or anything.

[norther practitioner]

I'm doing all the forms for fun, for training, getting conditioned, etc. The sparring and drilling is where the techs. get refined to the point I feel is plenty for what I use it for. Plus, I have blown out both knees now (the last one still affects me, I'm still strengthening the quads in the left leg), it took me a little while to get back into sparring, as I was a little nervous when anything was thrown toward my legs.

[Suntzu]

*looking around* I would love to know a wushu form… they cool as he|| to look at… well not if I did it… plus wushu got all the cuties… but I'm not rockin the pj's…

[dezhen2001]

i admit wushu and all those mad acrobatic stuff look cool as heck and real fun to do.. wish i could do some of those purely for the fun part :)

as for the cuties, i think being with a wushu or tkd gal would be kinda cool :p

I remember when i trained Shotokan Karate, it was really a kinda weird environment. It was just run in a school hall, and i started when i was 8. We did a lot of forms and basic training, as well as fun and games & point sparring. But as i got up to around 13 or so the trianing became much harder and we practised more and more application from the kata - even more so than the competitive side. We also did a lot of free but controlled sparring using the applications from forms, and then had a good time with the competitive side as well. I used to compete semi and full contact (kinda knockdown rules) up until i was 20, which was good experience. Did ok against TKD and kickboxers as well...

I always thought this would be the kinda average school, but i guess i was lucky and mistaken :confused:

dawood

[norther practitioner]

Come on man, it's all about the PJs! I've got a satin set, the ladies love the satin! lol
As far as the wushu goes....well I don't know if I look to good doing it right now either.

[rogue]

Karate or TKD schools like that are rare David.

[dezhen2001]

yeah when i was a kid i used to do gymnastics as well, and when i was older aikido. so i really love falling and spinning etc. thankfully a northern system my sifu teaches has some jumping and spinning in it - nothing like wushu though. But coming from aikido/gymnastics/shotokan to doing wing chun... man sometimes i just wanna stretch out and jump! :p

dawood

[rogue]

Satin PJs, checking the oil and Red5Angel dressing Ap up in a sundress like he's a farkin Barbie doll. What the h e l l has happened to you guys?:eek:

Next thing you know you'll be discussing your favorite Trading Spaces episodes!

[Suntzu]

NP - they DO looked pimped out tho… I should get a set for the crib… but they require an understanding guest… or she might just laff at ya… unless… ofcourse u were a millionaire…

[dezhen2001]

hi rogue,

yup, when i trained with other people back in Scotland i noticed a difference... i guess its because we didnt go to competitions all THAT much, but focussed a lot more on kata bunkai. Although i dont train now and the person who took over from my Sensei is a pile of steaming poo - im glad for the foundation he gave me :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm glad no-one responded to my post in deadly earnest, ahtellyewhut...

[David Jamieson]

I think that the search to attain Kungfu is one of the good things in my life.

as a fighting mechanism it is also very handy dandy :D

I think the impetuosity of some folks is more th cause of their demise than what they train.

I've sparred with guys who do all kinds of things. Some are good some suck but at the root, they are all good for making the effort.

Kungfu is not about what's best for me. I'm as good at this point in time as I'm gonna be. I don't feel a need to compete so I don't, but if I am presented with the misfortune of having to defend myself or another, then I am glad that I have spent a great deal of my life studying martial arts. Not only cma too.

It's all good.

It's funny how kungfu is like that. It tempers you into the person who doesn't enjoy fighting but rather sees it as a last resort in terms of solutions to a problem.

some people are firecrackers who are never secure in themselves. This in turn makes them highly competitive or makes them highly insular.

some guys do it because they are good at it and can actually make a living by fighting. Trust me, careers are not long and if you are going to risk your health and well being for money, it better be a whole lotta money or you are simply not "with it" if ya get my inference.

why the heck would you wanna get smacked around for nothing? Unless of course that's some kind of sexual drive for you :D

yin and yang boys, yin and yang.

keep training

cheers

[diego]

Yah, i think kf's great!.

[yenhoi]

the current state of CMA is great. I goto class 5 times a week for 2 hours with 6 other people. We train until our legs shake and our lungs burn. The other 3 groups just like ours withen sparring distance seem to progress just as quickly as us. I go on the internet to random forum and see a good number of random people from all over convincing me through their posts that they train just as hard and kick just as much ass.

blah blah blah.

What is this randomness about the reputation of a particular "style" or particular group of styles or methods and what not. Its a shame.

I dout martial arts in general is any different now then it ever was. Only the elite become elite.


:eek:

Do you honestly care what deadly method the bad guy is using when you drop into battle mode?

[SevenStar]

The problem is the state of kung fu practitioners - some of them anyway. There are far too many people who are trying to train to get in shape, for spiritual reasons, philosophy, etc. sport fighting does not draw that crowd...it tends to draw people who want to compete and fight. That alone puts them at a different level, because they already have the midset that they want to fight. That combined with good, fight oriented training puts them ahead of the game early.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dezhen2001



So how is the training different in regards to your kung fu experience and new methods? Is it just the sparring or what?



It's a completely different world. Kung fu training was hard where I was, but was mainly stances and forms. We did alot of light sparring, but we did go hard several times a month.

bjj on the other hand is constantly balls to the wall. drill, drill, drill, roll, roll, roll. It's an excellent workout, and progress at rolling happens faster, because we roll all the time. bjj is more focused than kung fu - in kung fu, there was punches, kicks, throws, locks, forms, stance work, etc... bjj is grappling, plain and simple. We do standing once a week, and grappling the three. on the fourth, we just drill.

judo is pretty much the same as bjj, as far as training methodology - it's specific, so we don't have to spread class time across several different areas.


That said, that is the reason many people say that in a fight, they'd pick a 6 month sport fighter over a 6 month traditional guy - the sport training tends to be more focused.

[firepalm]

I will probably get blasted for this but this is the way I see it, Kung Fu has very sound underlying principles that could be applied to the real world realities of self defense but for the most part most current instructors fail to do so. When I was younger & learning, one of my first Kung Fu teachers would always instruct us that fighting had the potential to occur at four ranges (striking, kicking, seizing / trapping & wrestling / ground fighting) and yet so very few traditional Kung Fu styles actually address this (in truth so did the school I was in at the time), while the modern martial art seems to embrace this concept. I also quickly became familiar with the Cantonese expression ‘Yaht Dahm, Yi Lik, Saam Gung Fu’, meaning First is Courage, Second is Strength / Power & Third is Kung Fu or technique. It seems to me however most traditional Kung Fu players spend most of their time training in the third part (& usually forms - only part of Kung Fu training but not the whole) to the expense of not even addressing the first two sometimes. To my understanding JKD schools train you to be able to fight while dealing with your opponent hurling profanities & attempting to intimidate you (Courage / dealing with fear), how many traditional schools actually spar nonetheless train you to deal with psychological factors that you will most likely half to contend with in probable real life situation. The modern martial artists tend to take the need to be fit & strong a lot more serious then do the traditionalists. One of the early Chinatown Kung Fu schools I attended had many ‘social members’ that would often just show up to chat.

I often like to explain to people that the Chinese martial arts is as much a culture trip as it is martial art, may be even more so to the first part. Much of what is retained is due to cultural customs of preserving a tradition as opposed to looking at whether or not it remains relevant (ie; antiquated weapon training). Basically there’s a lot of trappings that go along with the Chinese martial arts, so that if one is looking purely for self defense they will be learning in a very round about way. Many Kung Fu players get more caught up in the history, pageantry & politics of their styles then the actual process of training & becoming a competent martial artist.

Just a few of my views.
Cheers
:cool:

[Ryu]

It's interesting to note that "traditional" training back in the feudal days mixed spiritual practice with actual fighting. I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment. I've seen a lot of people downplay the ethical and spiritual aspects of martial art in an almost fallacy-like way. The reason I say this is because people see (over and over again) schools who do not fight, do not train athletically, and do not test their knowelde in full contact environments BECAUSE they claim "spirituality" keeps them from doing so.
This is simply a fallacy on their part. And it's interestin to see that many people can accept that a "mcdojo" has no understanding of true training methods, but doesn't seem to accept that the "mcdojo" type of attitude has no undersanding of traditional martial spirituality either.

"Ethical philosophy" (I don't want to use the term spirituality) SHOULD be included in realistic training and martial art. Too many people seem to think this "martial spirit" means to roam from city to city with a flute on your back, spit out haiku, and become one with Kuan Yin.
Ethical aspects on how you use the training is what the "martial art spirituality" should be about.

The reason is that we are all in conclusion that real martial art should be about true combat. You should be able to use what you know in full contact environments, you should practice fighting by fighting. This is what MA was always supposed to be... no Chinese or Japanese soldier sat there and practiced forms all day in preparation for war... Just as no knight or viking did anything of the sort either.
It was all about fighting. Being able to fight well. Fight BETTER than others.
Therefore....it was the TRAINING, not the art, that was deadly. The skills were deadly. They were dangerous.
If you have a dangerous weapon in your possession then it behooves you to include time for responsibility training, ethical understanding of the power you have, etc.

We accept this kind of "ethical training" in firearm certification, police training, etc.

When someone purchases a gun, we have background checks, safety courses, etc.

It's my feeling (and maybe it's just me) that the more REAL your training is.....the more ethical aspects you should put into your practice.
This isn't about going to church, or doing a religion.... it's about spending time with people who are learning to FIGHT for real to make sure they have the proper understanding of ethics and responsibility.

One could say "if they want to commit a crime, they'll do it whether or not they know martial arts..."

But you can say the same thing about someone who wants a gun. Yet they don't get that gun.

Just my 2 cents. I think "martial virtue" is a very important thing. But just like everything else, it's gotten caught up in this "I'm Caine, I'm a shaolin priest" stuff.....

It's not about that at all.

Ryu

[SevenStar]

As usual, good post.

"Ethical philosophy" (I don't want to use the term spirituality) SHOULD be included in realistic training and martial art. Too many people seem to think this "martial spirit" means to roam from city to city with a flute on your back, spit out haiku, and become one with Kuan Yin.
Ethical aspects on how you use the training is what the "martial art spirituality" should be about.

I can't agree more with that. Like I've said before, that should be a byproduct of good training - you focus on fighting and learn the responsible use of it. I know several people who think that because they train, they should be like monks, and try to act the same. They get obsessed with it and their training starts to lose its focus. I've always said, if you want spirituality, go to church, a temple, etc.

The reason is that we are all in conclusion that real martial art should be about true combat. You should be able to use what you know in full contact environments, you should practice fighting by fighting. This is what MA was always supposed to be... no Chinese or Japanese soldier sat there and practiced forms all day in preparation for war... Just as no knight or viking did anything of the sort either.
It was all about fighting. Being able to fight well. Fight BETTER than others.
Therefore....it was the TRAINING, not the art, that was deadly. The skills were deadly. They were dangerous.

indeed.

[rogue]

Good post ryu. I always like to think of "Ethical philosophy" as simple responsibility for ones actions. I do think that martial artists who are sport oriented and to a degree anyone who spars at decent intensity(ie people sometimes get injured) will realize the responsibility they have for what they do.

[SifuAbel]

Good post all in all, but.

"... no Chinese or Japanese soldier sat there and practiced forms all day in preparation for war... Just as no knight or viking did anything of the sort either. "

What do forms have to do with ethics or spirituality?

And, they did, its called drilling. Every army in the world does it. Back then and today. Except in this age they shoot at a firing range or taget arena, and field strip thier M-16. They practice assualt tactics. How to "move" in a particular terrain. They practice how to best "position" themselves to get the best "shot". They practice every manuever countless times before they go off to war. They practice until its second nature. Pilots spend countless hours in flight sims. Gunners practice loading, unloading, targeting and moving their equipment. And all without actually killing anyone. They had to learn somehow.

Forms have nothing to do with the Mcdojo problem directly. Also, if they are just "sitting around" thier form can't be that good anyhow.

[SevenStar]

True, but the difference there, IMO is that some people don't know how to use their forms. they either 1) don't fight using the principles in their forms, meaning that they haven't drilled them enough and don't quite understand them or 2) they think the form is the exact way they will fight, and that's wrong. Either way, they are practicing the form with the wrong intent in mind, along with light, little or no sparring (in some cases, anyway)

[rogue]

Right now I'm using forms to pull techniques from and it's not an easy process, at least for me.
1. You have to know the kata.
2. You have to know something about anatomy(sp?)
3. You have to visualize what's happening.
4. Adjust the move. For example, the opening move of Hwarang is performed square on to the opponent, but really works great if you step off line at a 45 degree angle.
5. You need to practice it "as is" on a partner.
6. You then need to loosen it up and get rid of any flowery or stiff stuff that gets in the way of the technique.
7. You need to try it out again.
8. Finally you need to try it out in a dynamic(sparring, dynamic drills) situation.
9. After all this work you still may be wrong.

That's an awful lot of work for each move. The only reason I do it is because it's kind of a hobby and my formal training time was reduced to a couple hours per month.

[Mizong_Kid]

people do kung fu for many reasons.but in todays modern lifestyle i dont think kung fu can be what it was.how many kung fu practioners can say they can trains 6 hours day 7 days a week?????? NOT MANY!

there are many other things in life to do.....work, job, family.....very few Can dedicate all their time to training and training alone!

it seems the argument here is on the issue of a real life fight situation, in which case most kung fu practicioners would find themselves on the end of a serious beating.

i learn kung fu and i admit i wouldnt want to get involved in a fight because i know there is a high chance i will get beaten because i havent done any sparring whatsoever! techniques i learn from forms...and all techniques that you see in forms are hard to apply to real situations unless you are "naturally gifted" or "that good as a fighter".

i find it hard to believe that a "good" kung fu practioner could easily and successfully apply "chin-na" moves in a fight.

and when i say "fight".....i mean a situation where the opponent is bigger/stronger/and probably a brawler!


the only way to be good at kung fu is to have started at a young age and trained everyday for hours on end!

so i think many kung fu practioners need to realise that no training is ever enough!

those people that boast of their skills are doing nothing but asking for trouble.....kidding yourselves into thinking you are something you are not!

i gladly admit i will never be good at kung fu.....bcoz i cant train hours on end 7-days a week! and this makes me my own business and just train hard when i can and do train!

[dezhen2001]

rogue: sounds good! im sure its very rewarding :) This is the kinda thing we used to do when we worked on kata bunkai as well... often for example take the first movement in the form and work on different applications of it etc. for the whole night. Then we would do some sparring and trying to apply it in a free situation.

mizong kid: agreed - how many people these days can train more than 3 hours per day? 3 hours per day within a class structure and wiht partners for example. i know i certainly cant so have to make best use of my time available. i used to compete in full contact karate, boxing and had a few MT fights as well before i met my Sifu. They really helped me a lot. But nowadays i train mainly for health, so i do more Qigong - especially hard qigong.

If i plan my time wisely i can train around 4 hours a day, getting up at 5am each time. Some of that is maybe playing with friends who do other skills, but most is Qigong and basic training. Again, thats just my focus.

But i think some good training is better than no good training. for example i have been beaten by a group of 3 guys, but thankfully i knew how to cover my weak places so the damage was minimal compared to what it could have been. its not like the movies - u win some and lose some. but thankfully i have survived all things that have happened without real bad injuries.

i liked competing because it really developed a strong intention to finish things as much as possible and to not be so worried about getting hurt. Nowadays im a little too mello win that respect, but working on it :)

i also dont think you need to be training since you were young and for hours on end. A certain minimum is needed i agree, but you have to train smart and in the right way - or you have nothing.

As far as kung leks original post... some people like sport fighting and follow it. me, im not really interested at all so not obsessive in the least. most of the time people post about it i have no clue what they are going on about :D i dont think that sport fighting is the be all and end all as there are too many variables. yet i respect the people who do train for these events - just as i respect wushu people for all their hard work and skill... or other sports persons.

just my thoughts,
dawood

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Only the elite become elite."

that is a depressing reality.

sevenstar ... i disagree with you very rarely brother.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

am i alowed to call you brother?

[dezhen2001]

d.amn just realised i posted part of that on the wrong thread :(

dawood

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i just thought you were fu cking crazy.

[Laughing Cow]

Time to stir the smelly brown stuff.
:D

I don't think that there is anything wrong with CMA, as someone mentioned I think the problem lies with the practicioners.

Furthermore I blame the media and movies for a lot of the rubbish & misconceptions going on in the CMA scene.
You see if I want to buy good X someone will be there to sell me good X, regardless if it is ****e or not.
hence we got the "Church of scientology" and similar things

So a lot of MA schools provide EXACTLY what their customers want, may it be a healing dance, "street effective" techniques, spiritual enlightenment or traditional rubbish.
Most people are not interested in the FULL curriculum, but only want a selected bit that they think is the "Magic Pill" that solves their problems.
And that applies to nearly everything they and most of us do.

Like always the real deal is still out there, but it cannot stand out against the NEON-signs of the frauds.

I was lucky to find my current kwoon, we train very traditional and my Sifu stresses basics and principles very much.
Funny thing is one of the senior students also teaches "Yang" 24 at the same kwoon.
End Results:
"Yang" 24 = 6 students from the neighbourhood
Chen TJQ = 20 students with some travelling a few hours to class.

BTW, most of our Chen TJQ students are ex-24 stylists.
;) :p

Seeya.

[dezhen2001]

GDA: i AM crazy - it should be painfully obvious as im at arounf the 2500 post mark... would anyone who was sane speak so much bull? :eek:

Laughing Cow: sounds good - glad you found a good sifu :) Can you email or pm? would be good to hear from you again, its been a while.

dawood

[HuangKaiVun]

Almost every day, I get calls from people who "don't want karate or tae kwon do".

My school features no belts, uniforms, or additional fees. We train in the traditional manner, doing kung fu for both combat and health benefits.

Every week, I am meeting new students who are genuinely interested in training kung fu specifically. They don't want karate dressed up as kung fu, they don't want to do knuckle pushups or splits, and they know that the movies are totally fake.

In our training, we spar constantly. Though we have no mats in our school, we still practice takedowns and breakfalls. After all, there are no mats to fall on in the streets (despite the insistence of a certain misguided poster here that there ARE).

The other day, my student took me down and was going to twist my arm off. I reached over and stuck my thumb in his eye. That's the kind of move that is considered illegal in competition, but we practice it all the time because it's what saves you in REAL fighting.

Kung fu is meant for the street, not the ring.

[dezhen2001]

i hope your students eye suffered no damage and can still see ok :)

dawood

[Merryprankster]

Must be hard to find training partners and students if you're constantly gouging each other's eyes out.

See, this is the problem--it's a mindset issue. I look at something like an eyegouge and I know there is NO way you can practice that remotely full speed. Same with throat tears or strikes. To me that is NOT training realistically.

To YOU, MMA style training is not realistic because we sometimes don't focus on these types of maneuvers.

[HuangKaiVun]

Of course no eye damage was suffered.

In a non-life or death encounter, sparring lasts far longer than it would in the street because really NASTY moves like that are pulled.

Like it or not, there's very little way to truly prepare for a real streetfight. You can simulate various aspects of it, but nothing will teach a person how to fight through severe injury other than fighting through severe injury.

Only an IDIOT wouldn't gouge a guy's eyes out on the street when he's got you in a compromising position, Merryprankster.

At least we train for that possibility while you're getting your arms ripped off.

[Merryprankster]

None of the armbreaks I know allow you to get close enough to gouge my eyes. What the heck was this guy trying? Never mind--don't answer that.

I'm not suggesting that gouging eyes isn't a good idea, I'm suggesting that you have no idea if your gouge "actually works," because you stopped before say, he jerked his head away, etc. Unless you buried it 3 knuckles deep or something...

Of course we're not actually going to get anywhere with this, so I'll just bow out with my eyeballs intact.

[Chang Style Novice]

Our local bjj bb is legally blind from eye damage he got in a fight.

But then, he was blinded by a gunshot, and he still trains, competes, and aspires to be a world champ. My guess is that immediately after losing his eye, he was out of action, though. Take from that what you will.

http://www.austinbjj.com

[dezhen2001]

:rolleyes:

CSN: thats great that he has adapted and developed his skill even though suffering that. my sisuk trains wing chun, qigong and taijiquan and even travels to teach 2 classes a week and he is registered legally blind :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, it's a great story. I've never met the guy or gone to his school, though, I just picked up that stuff from his site.

"Legally blind" is very different from "can't see a thing" though.

[dezhen2001]

yup agreed... my sisuk is blind in one eye and has around 10% vision in the other because of an operation he had when he lost his sight. Hes really one of my true heros with what he has accomplished. i spend a lot of time with him when i visit my sifu :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

From the "On the Mat" interview with William Vandry - I had some details wrong.

http://www.onthemat.com/interview_william_vandry.html


Q: How blind are you? Were you born blind or was it an accident?(details?)

A: I have been diagnosed with the clinical and legal diagnosis of blindness in both eyes with a vision no better than 20/200. I also have a condition by medical definition called Agnosia. Agnosia is a rare disorder characterized by an inability to identify or recognize objects or persons despite having knowledge of the characteristics of the objects or the persons. For instance, if there is a cassette on a table, I may think it is a remote control. I also have Prosopagnosia which is a condition also called Face Blindness. Prosopagnosia is a neurological condition that impairs a person’s ability to recognize faces. Usually Agnosia are caused by a head trauma although not always. There is a website to explain Prosopagnosia in laymen terms if interested, it is www.prosopagnosia.com and Agnosia’s in general for more medical definition, which is www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and medical/disorders/agnosia.htm . These conditions are certainly interesting, if you look at me you would not be able to tell I have a visual problem unless you specifically knew. I think most people think if you have a visual problem then you need glasses and a cane, not always. There are some people who have been legally blind and still do every day things.


In 1997 a random person who had an argument with someone else and came to shoot that person but I was shot in my left temple and the bullet exited through the lower right half of my head. The bullet had went through my Occiptial lobe and the eyes are connected to the Occipital lobe which transfers the image of sight to the brain. Due to the injury which caused lesions, that interrupts the complete image sent to the brain which causes the sight impairment. I spent a few years recovering from the physical part, then the mental then the retraining in a different way. I also managed to get back to the art I love so much, BJJ and with so much help from family and Carlos Machado I was able to be better than ever—with exception of sight.

[rogue]

"people do kung fu for many reasons.but in todays modern lifestyle i dont think kung fu can be what it was.how many kung fu practioners can say they can trains 6 hours day 7 days a week?????? NOT MANY!"

I think kung fu could now be better than in the old days. I don't think you have to train as long today to get the same results. Sports medicine, nutrition, video of what others are doing, excercise equipment can all make for more efficient training sessions. The guys today who train a full day 7 days a week are probably better fighters than any of the guys from the old days.

"rogue: sounds good! im sure its very rewarding"
Once in a while it is Dawood, most of the time I wonder why I bother. After all if I need techniques I could just pop in a Systema, BJJ or any number of tapes available. Like I said it's become more of a hobby for me, like guitar playing or collecting old Corgi cars. :)

HKV: "Kung fu is meant for the street, not the ring."
Matter of opinion. I know several guys who have proven themselves to be deadly, and they were all avid kickboxing competitors. They had no problem switching between the field and the ring and back again.

[dezhen2001]

Once in a while it is Dawood, most of the time I wonder why I bother.

its clear to me why :) After doing kata for so long, to work on application and have something you have done for so long just 'click' and you understand it makes everything worthwhile. and once you know how to use it its great because you have already practised the core movement in the form so much!

CSN: inspirational! :) yup, i think my sisuk has something similar in the eye he can 'see' from, which is not good! Actually when training you cant tell that he has a visual impairment at all... it also slightly affects his balance but the trianing has pretty much cured that. i have never met anyone more energetic and robust, and also good with directions :p

dawood

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
The other day, my student took me down and was going to twist my arm off. I reached over and stuck my thumb in his eye.

If you were able to reach his eye whilst he was trying to "twist your arm off", you are teaching your students ****ty arm-breaks.

'Nuff said.

[Ryu]

*in a Hank Hill voice*

Eyup...


Ryu

[No_Know]

The mention seems to be, with great Power comes great Responsibility.

The Shaolin monks in persuit of Order through the thinking called Buddhism ended-up descent fighters (If you have heard of Shao-lin, since they had military opposition and started in the fifth century or so, then that indicates surviving sixteen centuries. And they lived under what some of you might consider to be Street conditions--robbers, killers around...dangerous to go to the store....except for pistols and many other firearms, U.S. of A.'s Wild West-like).

Fighting was not their Focus. Yet, it's their Martial arts that is venerated or~ revered or~ highly sought...

As some of you might not see it, as The Way; perhaps you should not necessarily down it, as not A Way.

With great Power comes great Responibility.

Perhaps, with great Responsibility one feels empowered~.

Spirituality might be a structure in which one perceives Accountability and Reason~.

Perhaps some-such some might say whatever whatever, very whatever

[BrentCarey]

Much of what I have to say on this subject was already stated by others, but I'll put in my $0.02 anyway.

Those of you that know me, know that I have about 25 years of martial arts training. The last half of that time was spent practicing kung fu. I spent several years teaching hand-to-hand combat for special operations military and law enforcement personnel, and have had considerable "real world" experience applying MA training. OK, enough infomercial.

So, that's where I'm coming from. Several people have pointed out that the issue raised is not one of style, but one of intent. Here is what I have found. Understand that these are broad generalizations, but they do effectively influence the state of CMA.

People that are serious about training for competition (in the ring), or "fighting", tend to gravitate toward styles outside of the kung fu umbrella. This is appropriate. As I've mentioned several times, if someone wants to get good in the ring quickly, he should not study kung fu. Most kung fu takes a longer time to become proficient at than most other styles.

We (the CMA community) tend to get people that are looking for something more. So, training methods and environments tends to deemphasize training for the ring and other "benchmarks" for combat efficacy.

Unfortunately, most KF instructors also deemphasize combat efficacy altogether. This is not because KF is not effective, but because the instructors tend to lack any practical experience in this realm. Again, this is because those people are KF instructors, have been practicing KF for a while, and those people that have practiced KF for 10+ years, tend to be non-competitive or non-combative types.

So, take me for example. I could not even begin to teach a student how to train effectively for the ring, because I don't know anything about how competitions work. Why not? Because I have less than no interest in that pursuit. I can, however, train a student to be very effective in the real world. Contrary to what some would have us believe, the ring and the real world are very different.

That doesn't mean that you can't be effective in both, it just means that efficacy in one does not guarantee efficacy in the other.

So, what I find is that some of my students, after a fairly short time, are very capable of defending themselves with ferocity. Others, after much more training, will never be. The difference?

Those that can defend themselves, train with such a purpose. They don't just show up and go through the motions. It is all about mental training. I can teach a student exactly what to do physically, but if he/she doesn't mentally prepare for the actuality, he/she will forget everything during an actual attack.

This is the bottom line. MMA and BJJ types do well because they are mentally and physically prepared to do well in that sort of contest. KF types, although often technically superior, frequently lack the mental preparation. When you see a KF practitioner being beaten by a BJJ (or whatever) practitioner, do you see the KF practitioner doing "good" kung fu, but still being beaten? No, they panic, freeze, and fall apart. Is this physical or technical in nature? No, of course not. This is an issue of mental preparedness.

I have sparred with, and/or had "real" confrontations with, practitioners of just about every style in mainstream existence. I've won some, and I've lost some, but in the last 10 years anyway, I haven't lost because of inferior technique. I have lost because I failed in some way to prepare for the contest in question.

Never point to style to explain combat or competition performance - good or bad. Success or failure is dependent solely on the individual.

-Brent

[rogue]

KF types, although often technically superior, frequently lack the mental preparation.

When you see a KF practitioner being beaten by a BJJ (or whatever) practitioner, do you see the KF practitioner doing "good" kung fu, but still being beaten? No, they panic, freeze, and fall apart.

Is this physical or technical in nature? No, of course not. This is an issue of mental preparedness.

So training for the ring, or at least training like you're going into the ring (I think David Ross has some people that do this) is how you should train. Forgive me Brent, but what good is technical superiorty if a person can't use it? How do you train your folks to be mentally prepared?

[Merryprankster]

KF types, although often technically superior, frequently lack the mental preparation.

You blew it. You now have zero credibility with me. Technically superior, my ass. Go roll with any decent purple who's done some MMA. Your intent and mental preparation won't save you.

I'm not "grappling is the best here." It's just that your comment is so stereotypically CMA elitist, I can't take anything you say seriously.

[Braden]

Typical. Yeah, yeah, grappling is the best, we hear you.

[Merryprankster]

That's it Braden! I've had enough! I challenge you to a death by chicken choke match... er.. um... never mind.

[Braden]

Ha. You just want to steal my technically superior chinese chicken choking technique. Nice try!

[Merryprankster]

It is common knowledge that the CMA's do not know how to properly execute chicken chokes once on the ground. Brazilians figured out how to do it much better.

[Braden]

You sound like you want respectable chicken choking to descend into the world of common wrestling.

[Merryprankster]

I see you claim to be familiar with the internal chicken choke.

There is a whole world of stand-up chicken choking involving sensitivity and flow. We don't HAVE to go to the ground.

[SifuAbel]

The chinese have over a billion people, they don't have TIME to choke the chicken.

Man O' mighty!! I don't know what a "kung fu" type is, I only know me and my schools "type"(not whimps). But I do know that gross generalizations are in full force and gaining speed in this thread. :rolleyes:

Generalizations made by both sides of the fence. :confused:

Tip: I would be very carefull when to use the word "elitists" on this board. ;)

[rogue]

Braden, Ap told me MPs weakness. MP can only choke a gi wearing chicken. All you have to do is keep your chicken naked and he can't to anything to it. Heck, you could probably even wave your naked chicken right in front of him and still be safe.

[quiet man]

Choke the chicken? Hah! I know lots of other, superior styles:

Backstroke Roulette

Bash the bishop

Beat the Dummy

Beat the Stick

Bleed the Weed

Bop the Baloney

Box the Jesuit

Buff the Banana

Buff the Vampire Slayer

Burp the Worm

Butter the Corn

Choke the Sheriff and Wait for the Posse to Come

Clean Your Rifle

Crown the King

Cuff the Carrot

Fist Your Monster

Five Against One

Flog the Dog

Flute Solo

Fondle the Fig

Gallop the Antelope

Give It a Tug

Grease the Pipe

Hack the Hog

Jackhammer

Jazz Yourself

Kicking the Poodle

Lope the Mule

Make the Bald Man Puke

Manipulate the Mango

Manual Override

Mary Palmer

Mary Palm and the five adventures

Milk the Lizard

Moulding the candle

Mount a Corporal and Four

Nerk Your Throbber

Nickel Shuffle

Oil the Glove

One-Man Show

Pack Your Palm

Paddle the Pickle

Pam and her 5 friends

Pocket Pinball

Polish the Rocket

Pull the Pope

Pump the Python

Ram the Ham

Ride the Great White Knuckler

Rope the Pony

Scaling the garfish

Shag

Shaking Hands With the Unemployed

Slam the hammer

Slapping the Clown

Sling the Jelly

Snap the Monkey

Spank the Frank

Squeeze the Lemon

Stroke the Dog

The Five-Knuckle Shuffle

Thump the Pump

Varnish the Flagpole

Wax the Dolphin

Wrestle the Eel

Yang Your Wang.

[rogue]

Sounds like a list of Tai Chi moves.

[quiet man]

LOL rogue! :D :D

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by rogue

So training for the ring, or at least training like you're going into the ring (I think David Ross has some people that do this) is how you should train. Forgive me Brent, but what good is technical superiorty if a person can't use it? How do you train your folks to be mentally prepared?

I'm not sure if you are challenging my post, or agreeing with it. My point is exactly in response to your question. I am saying that technical skills do no good if you are not mentally prepared to use them. Was I not clear on that?

I use a number of techniques with my students. For example, early on we do blocking drills with increasing levels of unpredictability - mostly to get students used to arms and legs flying at them without panicking.

We also use visualization techniques. Students visualize self-defense scenarios, and plan their response to them. The objective is not preconceive a defense strategy, but to preconceive an immediacy and intensity in the response appropriate to the attack. Most self-defense failures result from a failure to response swiftly and with resolve. (This incidentally is one thing that BJJ/MMA/etc practitioners have for them - resolve is built into the style.)

Also, we run realistic self-defense scenarios - street clothes, poor lighting, multiple attackers, weapons, etc. These are done with the most realism possible without sacrificing safety. It is amazing what it does to a student psychologically to take them out of the studio at night in unfamiliar surroundings.

Perhaps just as importantly as all of these, we talk about self-defense all the time. I use real stories from either my own experience, or others known to me. We do a fair amount of "what if" discussions.

Ultimately, I cannot actually prepare a student mentally. He/she must do this himself/herself. I provide opportunities and guidance, and give them the technical skills to back it up, but really it comes down to an individual's resolve.


-Brent

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


You blew it. You now have zero credibility with me. Technically superior, my ass. Go roll with any decent purple who's done some MMA. Your intent and mental preparation won't save you.

I'm not "grappling is the best here." It's just that your comment is so stereotypically CMA elitist, I can't take anything you say seriously.

You have no idea how much that upsets me. I came onto the forum with sole objective to impress you. I'm not sure what to do with myself now.

How easily persuaded are you, that one phrase makes up your whole mind about a person? Oh well, here we go anyway...

If you go back and read the post, you will note that I prefaced my comments with an acknowledgement that the following statements were generalizations.

I do stand by the statement. Kung fu practitioners are often technically superior. Are they always superior? Of course not. However, often they are faster, more versatile, have a broader range of techniques, superior balance, etc. The opposite is often true just as well.

I am simply saying that although this is often the case, it is also frequently accompanied by a lack of mental preparedness.

I'm not sure where you get off calling me a CMA elitist. If you read the post, you will find that what I am actually doing is pointing out one of the major flaws in the CMA community (in general), and one way that BJJ/MMA/etc practitioners are generally superior.

I would not, for example, say that in cases where the BJJ/MMA/etc practitioner possesses technical superiority, he/she frequently lacks the mental preparedness to use it. On the contrary. Practitioners of these styles tend to have a mindset that is more prepared to take martial action (in the ring or wherever). Whether this results from training in the style, or the style just attracts this mindset, or both, is immaterial to my point.

My point is simply that we should not assume that solely because practioner A defeats practitioner B, that there is anything inherently wrong with B's style. Even if 1000 practitioners of style A defeat 1000 practitioners of style B, we still cannot make that leap of logic.

90% of success or failure comes down to physical and mental readiness. Technique has much less to do with it than all these "my-stylists" would have us believe.

I can teach someone one stance, one block, and one punch. If he/she prepares sufficiently both physically and mentally, he/she will be able to defeat anyone from style X that lacks his/her state of readiness.

To further underscore this point. I know a few people with no formal training whatsoever, who in a "real world" fight, could beat any BJJ/MMA/etc hero you can name. They can do this because they have resolve, fortitude, and a combative spirit. This is the type that can be shot, stabbed, and have a cracked skull and ribs - and still keep attacking. I'm not saying that I would have them to dinner necessarily, but they are excellent fighters - not because of technical/style superiority, but because they are mentally prepared for combat.

Take a look at any skilled and accomplished BJJ/MMA/etc fighter. What are they like mentally? Pretty soft-spoken, easy-going, and non-confrontational right? No, of course not. These people would be decent (or better) fighters without style X. Sure, style X makes them better fighters by giving them a technical edge, but it does not make them.

Incidentally, with regards to ...

Go roll with any decent purple who's done some MMA. Your intent and mental preparation won't save you.
Been there, done that, and you are exactly wrong. It is my intent and mental preparation precisely that has saved me repeatedly in both real life, and in stupid contests.

If you are using the term "roll" here literally, then you are correct. If I am taken down by a BJJ/MMA/etc type, I do very poorly. I am 5'9", weigh only 145 pounds, and have weak ground technique. I am severely disadvantaged on the ground if my attacker is there ahold of me. However, I quite honestly am rarely taken to the ground.

The way I practice MA, if I find myself on the ground, it is probably because I failed to respond quickly enough to the attack. The failure - lack of mental preparedness.


-Brent

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by BrentCarey
Take a look at any skilled and accomplished BJJ/MMA/etc fighter. What are they like mentally? Pretty soft-spoken, easy-going, and non-confrontational right? No, of course not.

Actually, many, if not most, of the skilled and accomplished BJJ/MMA/etc fighters I've met and talked to are soft-spoken, easy-going, and completely non-confrontational outside of the ring.

And some of the most famous and successful MMA fighters are said to be much the same way. Igor Vovchanchyn and Kazushi Sakuraba, to name two.

That aside... the way you seem to be coming across here is "Kung-fu practitioners are usually very skilled, and when they lose it's usually because they don't have mental focus. MMA/grappler types are usually less skilled in technique than kung fu types, and when they win it's because they're rough and tumble types who would probably win without any training."

This may not be what you intend, but it's the way you're coming across, and it demeans the large amounts of skill, precision, and self-control that becoming a skilled grappler requires, as well as being entirely untrue.

[SifuAbel]

Atteeeeeeeeeeeen -Hut!

Generals are in the room.

I have to say that neither side has a monopoly on mentality or technique.

[Merryprankster]

What Sifu Abel said, and especially what FatherDog said. Precisely my point.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I'm not arrogant. But I am fairly aggressive. Obviously. :D

People in competitive arts who do "stupid competitions" typically know exactly what they are and are not capable of doing because we all lose to somebody. Even guys like Karelin.

It's a very humbling experience to tap out, (or wake up) rise, and congratulate the other person for beating your ass.

I'm willing to bet I probably overstepped the bounds of reasonableness in my first response, but the one thing I cannot stand is elitism from any practitioner, regardless of style, and that's how it came across to me. You get get at what you train for--as you indicated by your comment about going to the ground. That was my point, but I didn't articulate it well, and was the sole purpose I had in mentioning the purple belt. It's a SKILL, not a will, problem for you. But we have no way of knowing the same about the guys in the comps that get taken down and beaten. We don't actually know if it's a mindset and intent problem or a skill problem. I'm betting on the latter. People who climb in the ring typically have at least a little of the necessary mindset and intent.

[Oso]

It's a very humbling experience to tap out, (or wake up) rise, and congratulate the other person for beating your ass.

amen. you can't truly appreciate finally figuring out what your
coach/teacher is trying to teach and winning with it unless you
get your butt whupped at least a few times first.

I had the epitome of the best kind of competative rivalry in HS
wrestling. My and a guy from another HS kept meeting each
other on the mat. We alternated wins, none ever by pin. I think
we wrestled like 4 or 6 times by the time we saw each other
for the last time our senior year. We would hang out at the
meets and talk, it was really cool. We ended up tying our
last match w/ a really low score like 6-6.

It is very hard to find that sort of sportsmanship these day's
I think. maybe in the judo/bjj world but i'm not in contact with
that.

hmm, this thread and another have me thinking about this
question: Do ego's get more involved if there is striking involved?
seems like competative grapplers can win and lose with more
grace than those that may be in a comp where striking is involved.
just a thought.

Matt

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by FatherDog

Actually, many, if not most, of the skilled and accomplished BJJ/MMA/etc fighters I've met and talked to are soft-spoken, easy-going, and completely non-confrontational outside of the ring.

Of course I am referring to mindset in the ring. Timid fighters don't do well as a rule. What is interesting is just what you mentioned - the more accomplished the fighter, generally the more easy-going they are outside the ring. The people that talk a lot of trash, tend to be at the lower end of the skills range.

Not sure what the cause and effect is there, but I suppose it has a good deal to do with the fact that anyone that has been around for a while knows that no matter how good you think you are, someone will always show you that you have a long way to go.


Originally posted by FatherDog
That aside... the way you seem to be coming across here is "Kung-fu practitioners are usually very skilled, and when they lose it's usually because they don't have mental focus. MMA/grappler types are usually less skilled in technique than kung fu types, and when they win it's because they're rough and tumble types who would probably win without any training."

This may not be what you intend, but it's the way you're coming across, and it demeans the large amounts of skill, precision, and self-control that becoming a skilled grappler requires, as well as being entirely untrue.

That's why I really hate these religion discussions sometimes. I deliberately chose my words (as I tend to), using "often" and "frequently", rather than the words you inferred like "usually."

I am simply saying that this is often the case. In fact, I thought I clarified this:


Originally posted by BrentCareyKung fu practitioners are often technically superior. Are they always superior? Of course not. However, often they are faster, more versatile, have a broader range of techniques, superior balance, etc. The opposite is often true just as well.

Often girls are taller than boys, but often boys are taller than girls. I could further say that when a girl is taller than boys her age, it is frequently because they are all about 10-12 years old. Is this always the case? No, but it is "frequently" true.

I am just saying that there are cases where a KF practitioner has superior (or at least equal) technical skill, but is defeated by a practitioner of another style, primarily due to a lack of readiness. This is one type of incident that accounts for the apparent disparity between kung fu and "other" styles. In my experience, this is frequently the case - not always, perhaps not even usually, but at least frequently.

Let me provide some examples. From time to time, I invite other schools from other styles to come and spar with us. Sometimes they come, and sometimes they decline for whatever reason.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. One of my students (about 6 months of training) was sparring with a local BJJ student (about 8 months of training). They face off, shuffle around a little bit, then the BJJ guy rushes in, head down, at my student's mid-section. My student raises his stance, kind of shuffles back, folds over the top of his opponent, and collapses. A few seconds later he was folded up like a pretzel. Several similar incidents followed.

So, I convened with my student.

Me: "What stance were you in when your opponent hit you?"
Him: "Um, I'm not sure."
Me: "OK, what stance were you in before he hit you?"
Him: "Horse stance - fighting posture."
Me: "Right. So how did he attack you?"
Him: "He rushed me at my mid-section."
Me: "Yes. Was his head up or down?"
Him: "Down I think."
Me: "Where were his hands?"
Him: "Kind of out in front grabbing at me."
Me: "Did we practice defenses against this kind of attack?"
Him: "Yes sir, several."
Me: "OK, what stance should you have moved into?"
Him: "A solid bow stance would have been good."
Me: "Did you do that?"
Him: "I don't know."
Me: "No, you didn't. What else could you have done?"
Him: "Well, since his head was down. I could have easily kicked his face hard if this had been real life. I can't actually do that here can I?"
Me: "No, but you could have let him know that he could have been kicked, by kicking the shoulder or chest lightly. OK, let's say you decided not to do that, or didn't think of it in time. What could you have done as he got closer?"
Him: "Deflected his arms and head to the side and downward while stepping to the side like we practiced."
Me: "What about the follow-up throw we practiced?"
Him: "Oh, that too."
Me: "Where were these techniques a few minutes ago?"
Him: "I don't know. I just panicked I guess."
Me: "Exactly. Let's offer full pads to our guest so that you don't need to worry about hurting him so much. Then, let's try this again."

We do just that. The BJJ guy wears some head and groin protection and they go back to it. This time, my student knows a little bit what to expect, but more importantly, is fully prepared to act this time. He easily defeats his opponent several times.

Then, a much larger, more experienced BJJ student asks to spar with my student. At this point, I think it was a matter of pride, and he came on a bit intensely. So, they spar. The same thing happens. My student is like a deer in the headlights. He is completely intimidated by this guy, and takes a beating.

So, we convene again and have a similar discussion. I ask the BJJ instructor if he would be willing to let me spar with his student so that I could demonstrate some things for my student. He agrees and his student agrees.

I am careful to use only techniques that I have already shown my student, and I use them in exactly the manner taught. I defeat the BJJ student several times. Since I weigh about 30 lbs less than my student, he is heartened by this. I explain that the only difference between this opponent and the last is in the mind. In fact, this second larger opponent was a bit slower than the previous one.

Well, my student went back and got beaten several more times. He pretty much froze up every time. Sorry, not a fairy tale ending, but this isn't Karate Kid.

However, another student of mine (about 2-3 months of training) asked to have a go at it. Everyone agreed, so they went to it.

He was untouchable. He went out there ready to win. He was focused and aggressive, but patient and relaxed. He only had a few techniques at his disposal, but used them to their fullest. He was not intimidated, and met his opponent with a purpose.

Having seen this, my first student asked to have another go at it, but the BJJ school got upset and left before he could have another try. They have never been back, which is too bad, because I think it was beneficial for everyone involved.

This is not an isolated incident. I have seen this same phenomenon over and over.

My intent is not to demean the value of anyone's training. I have great respect for anyone who is accomplished at any style. I am simply saying that people make a logical error when they make assumptions about the cause of victory or defeat being attributable solely to the person's style.

Technical strength builds confidence, and more often than not, it is the confidence, and not the skills themselves that decide victory. Sure, skills are extremely useful. In fact, this is where I think CMA (in general) excels - we have an infinite number of skills available to us. Skills do no good, however, if you are not mentally prepared to use them with an appropriate amount of resolve. This is where CMA (in general) is lacking.

I could say the opposite about BJJ (for example). Compared to CMA, BJJ is very narrow and lacking in breadth of skills. However, this narrower focus allows practitioners to become more skilled in their area. This breeds confidence and contributes to a focused mindset during a confrontation.

(Before anyone comes unglued here. I am saying this ONLY compared to CMA. Any knowledgeable person must concede the kung fu is much broader than BJJ. I am not claiming superiority in merit, just in breadth. OK?)

KF practitioners often have a hard time making up their mind what to do until it is too late, even though they are technically skilled.

It hurts the reputation of CMA every time a practitioner steps into the ring, who may be very skilled and accomplished, but with very little competitive experience. What do you think is going to happen? Of course, the person that trains for this type of contest is going to win.

When I was training hand-to-hand for special ops and law enforcement, I made a point of teaching kung fu, and not other styles. Most of the other instructors involved were BJJ and TKD types. My crusade was to prove that, when properly trained, kung fu would hold its own in the real world.

Well, it did. It was very successful and earned the respect of my peers from other styles. It worked because I narrowed the focus, simplified the strategies, and taught only a small subset of kung fu. We then practiced executing on these techniques with extreme resolve. It helped that my students had firm reason to believe that they would need to use these techniques some day to save their lives. Nothing like a captive audience.

Getting close to my 10,000 character limit on this post, so I'll cut it short at this point.

Let me end by saying this. The style X vs. style Y discussion has been gone over and over and over on this (and every other) forum. It will never be resolved. A much more useful discussion is the relative merits and weaknesses of style X when compared to style Y. There is some of that going on here, but it hurts the progress of such discussions when people get defensive.

-Brent

[morbicid]

I am more leaning to the side of vegetables. In general, they are easier to fit into the rectal passage and are less likely to tear something or put toxins into the body. Definetly vegetables.

[No_Know]

"I can teach someone one stance, one block, and one punch. If he/she prepares sufficiently both physically and mentally, he/she will be able to defeat anyone from style X that lacks his/her state of readiness."

Which punch? Which stance? Which block?

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by No_Know
Which punch? Which stance? Which block?


Hehe . . . take your pick. I have seen more than one person do quite well with just what I would call the "wild jab" - no blocks, and no special stance.

-B

[MArtist]

Being "technically superior" is completely irrelevant when you are comparing different styles. A professional ballet dancer will have little or no chance in a fight against a BJJ purple belt, who will not be as technically proficient in BJJ as the dancer is in ballet.

There are definitely techniques that are better than others for unarmed combat. While training method is also a factor, a style made up of mostly better techniques will generally be superior than one that is made up of mostly inferior techniques.

Sport competitive matches are one of the best ways we have to test the effectiveness of unarmed combative systems. It is extremely hard to find the level of skill, the amount of intent, and the variety of opponents you will find if you do not test your style in competitions.

There has never been a tested, unarmed battlefield system. There have been very few instances of any group of warriors in the history of mankind who have attempted to fight unarmed on the battlefield. No army has ever won a battle unarmed against another army. Any group of warriors that was stupid enough to attempt to rely on unarmed systems was quickly wiped out by their armed opposition (i.e. Boxer Rebellion).

[SevenStar]

"I do stand by the statement. Kung fu practitioners are often technically superior. Are they always superior? Of course not. However, often they are faster, more versatile, have a broader range of techniques, superior balance, etc. The opposite is often true just as well."

even as a generalization, I have to disagree. grappling is very precise. It has to be, because even half an inch of space is enough to allow you to escape a hold. something as small as not pivoting far enough can mean the difference between a submission and your opponent escaping and controlling you. if the sport fighter drills the same 7 techniques thousands of times per day while the CMA guy has to train 20 or more strikes, who will be more technically proficient? Anytime you are in a situation where you can be thrown, you need to have a good sense of balance. I'll agree that CMA has a broader range of techniques, but how often do you see taming the tiger stance, bear claws, etc. in a fight, or even in sparring?

Since we are making generalizations though, often times, the mma guy trains harder than the cma guy. so the cma guy who trains less and focuses on more techniques is better of than the mma guy who trains hard and focuses on fewer techniques?

when comparing styles, you can't make such broad generalizations accurately....

[dezhen2001]

when comparing styles, you can't make such broad generalizations accurately....

that made about as much sense as everything else :D

dawood

[MonkeySlap Too]

I think Kung Fu would be a good idea.

[Oso]

Suggestion:

A new Forum: X vs. Y

Anyone new can go there to start the debate again if they
desire.

If there were one perfect style then we would all be studying it
as there wouldn't be any other styles to study.

I said it before and I'll elaborate a bit:

The bjj/mma mindset for training is a kick in the pants for cma.
A wake up call.

We are on one side of a pendulum swing and eventually
(hopefully) we'll see less bs and harder training from the cma
schools that aren't. This will hopefully be shown by a willingness
from cma practitioners to cross hands/roll with bjj/mma stylists.

I'm a cma stylist but I have to agree that the proof is in the
pudding. The bottom line is shown by WHO is competing in
mma comps. The percentage of cma fighters is low (maybe
MP or someone can furnish some) and unless I'm mistaken,
none of them are winning.

Matt

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
I think Kung Fu would be a good idea.


I dunno, may be too flowery...

:D

[Sho]

Good for pointing it out, SevenStar. People should have a handful of specialties that they'd concentrate on (even modify to their own flavour). Realistic techniques for desired use - obviously it's not a good idea to have a phoenix eye technique as a ring sport specialty. Western boxing has a less broad range of techniques, because the rules inside the ring limit them.