Wing Chun Future

[Mckind13]

Hi all.

In the thread "A Question Answered" Marky said:

By the way... as interesting as Wing Chun history can be, Wing Chun's future should be higher on the list of priorities.

So I will ask where is your Wing Chun headed?

Is your school focused on Chi Sau, application, and competitions?

What is the focus of your training and in what direction does it progress?

Personally, I find WC lacking in very little. I envision the future of WCK being the understanding and adaptation of strategy to deal with opponents who are training in the popular arts of today and tomorrow.

I do not feel Wing Chun needs to change only our perceptions of how we address diverse methods.

Thanks

David

[Hsanto]

David,

IMHO, WingChun of future might needs to revisit its root DNA. It is great that there are evolution in application......

However, IMHO, There are basic which might have been corrupted or missing.

As an example. it was said that in the ancient time or the 1850's a WC hand technic can changing into atleast 3 different types of Jings with minor movements while action...
Not those one block one hit or simultaneous hit and neutralized.....but dynamicly adapting and fajing... similar to a ball bouncing as one touch it....

so it this real or legend? what do you think?


Hendrik

[Mckind13]

Hello Hendrick

I think it is real and I think you are correct. There are many subtle ways to apply different energies to different techniques. Also there are ways to embed multiple energies into a single technique.

Maybe then, to restate the above we should endevor to master the many facets of Wing Chun while being aware of the changing environment around us. I think we should explore the art fully, and include looking at the methods of our ancestors but also keep an eye to the present and future.

I do not think WCK needs any significant changes. As the face of conflict manifests itself through varying methods (new and old) of fighting and agression we need to be aware and take measures to understand and be ready for them.

How much do you think is missing from modern WCK?

What energies/ types of Jing were present in the early WC?

What are your feelings about evolution in WCK? We see that over time animals, cultures and beliefs change according to outside stimulus. Change in environment, change in food, change in dangers and daily challanges all cause a slow and eventual metemorphisis.


Thanks in advance

David

[Marky]

Hiya,

In "evolution", it is my understanding that a lifeform is not adapting to it's environment, it is either better suited to its environment or it dies (or finds a new environment). As time progresses, only the lifeforms with the favoreable traits will continue to survive, they will be more likely to produce offspring with those traits, and eventually we will call it "evolution". This evolution is not a process of life, but of death.

This same "evolution" occurs in a martial art through "death", namely failure to succeed. On an individual level, exercises like chi sao and lop sao promote rapid evolution by having continual movement, allowing you to screw up more often, and therefore letting you do better in a shorter time.

On an art-wide scale, I'm not sure wing chun can evolve, because it's a set of principles. The techniques were formed to adhere to the principles. So even if there is an "evolution" of the techniques, it is only to better represent the principles they are making use of. I've heard people make fun of wing chun techniques, even call them "useless", but those same people have NEVER argued that the principles of wing chun are not keys to success in many endeavors, physical and mental. They just see things differently.

There is a problem when people don't want to "die", they don't want to let their techniques fail. So they change their environment by following different principles. Then they think that wing chun doesn't work on it's own, and they seek another martial art. More than anything else, SELF-CRITICISM is the key to good wing chun, which will allow you to accept the failures you will go through before something "clicks".

For example, I hear a lot that wing chun doesn't work in groundfighting. Wing chun PRINCIPLES are still effective in groundfighting, but you need different techniques (expressions of the principle) to reach success. And of course, for them to work, you have to fail many times, so you have to actually utilize wing chun principles on the ground. The point is, wing chun on the ground doesn't look like stand-up wing chun, because it's a different world. Maybe it looks like BJJ! :D

[Marky]

EmptyCup,

What fighting principles that wing chun utilizes do you consider ineffective and not worth pursuing? I word it that way because those same principles would exist even if wing chun had never been put together.

[Hsanto]

So what is a wholesome WCK system?

So why should the BJJ guy fight standing in other hand why should a WCK guy fight laying down?

so.... so many questions... future start with questions....

[Mckind13]

Wholesome Wing Chun

Looks to the root to address all questions posed internally and externally.

David

[wingchunalex]

I agree to a degree with empty cup. people are getting into so much theory with wing chun that it's getting way from one of wing chun's most basic principles, simplicity.

I think wing chun needs to be more represented on the sparring scene and wing chun needs to be shown as a fighting art.

I think don't think wing chun needs to be changed, or added to. I think wing chun can defete styles like bjj in open competition. I just don't think wing chun people take a very realistic view on their taining, or just don't train enought, and are not in very good condition for competitive fighting.

empty cup mentioned that trapping rarely occures in sparring. i disagree with that, if its not happening i think wing chun is not living up to its potential. I think wing chun people don't force themselves to trap when they do spar so they can work the bugs out of it. trapping in sparring feels a bit different than trapping in chi sau, but not much. I think a lot of wing chun sparring ends up as who can chain punch who more and who's got the best structure contest. trapping is one of the bigest things that make wing chun work because you use their block against them. its like i can hit you, and if you block it i'll still hit you.

[S.Teebas]

I agree to a degree with empty cup. people are getting into so much theory with wing chun that it's getting way from one of wing chun's most basic principles, simplicity.

I tend to disagee with both of you guys. What your talking about sounds to me like your making excuses for not really wanting to put in the hard work to ingrain the WC theory into your working version of the system. Its more a mental analysis, way of hard work, than a "lets spar for 4 hours straight' kind of hard work. The theory is there so you can get the job done in the easiest way possible.

My opinion is you really need to work on basics alot, and thats where the future of WC lies; In the Basics.

[wingchunalex]

hey empty cup. lets talk on some other thread about trapping or start a new one, I like discussing with you. I don't want to flood this topic with a discussion on trapping.

[An jie]

First of all you have to tell me where you found the wing chun handbook

[An jie]

If any one of this thread had the opportunity to visit Foshan for the opening of the Yip Man Tong, then they know there is no need to question the future of Wing Chun. With any art, it is often our minds that inhibit us from pursuing true simplicity. You have to control the kung fu dont let the kung fu control you.

[anerlich]

I think wing chun can defete styles like bjj in open competition.

This has yet to happen, and would depend strongly on the rules. Most BJJers looking at competition including striking pragmatically accept they need to incorporate something like boxing or Muay Thai into their arsenal if they are to succeed in open competition. comparatively few WC people have embraced the converse.

The record of WC'ers against striking only boxers, full-contact karateka and MT stylists is hardly long or illustrious either. There have been some successes here, to be sure, but not that many and WC hardly even raises a blip on the MMA radar to date other something for the dumber BJJ trainees to poke fun at.

Some, like my Sifu and his students including myself, have felt the power of the dark side and joined the Empire - and started training in BJJ to COMPLEMENT our WC.

I don't really think the DNA and evolution of species are that good an analog for the "evolution" of Wing Chun. Barring cosmic irradiation or WMD, DNA is more or less inviolate and a species does not change in a generation. A martial artist's thinking, however, can change overnight and not necessarily because their strategies and tactics met the test of natural selection and failed.

Much WC training, particularly prior to about 1970, was conducted in a secretive and clandestine fashion - hardly put to exhaustive test or rigorous objective examination. The talk of "secret" techniques further prevents scrutiny, testing ,and selection.

In talking about the evolution of WC, what is it?

A devastatingly effective combat art? How well then does it stand up to the criminal underclass tooled up with guns and edged weapons? Will Dubya's army be attacking the Iraqis with bil saos and tan dars? In many ways H2H skill is the least important aspect of intelligently avoiding or surviving street crime.

A combat sport? Not doing real well in that regard at present. Yes, I know some WC people have pretty impressive tournament and ring records, my Sifu is one of them, but overall our penetration into sportfighting is pretty dismal.

Is it a social program designed to make the practitioner a more moral and enlightened being through adherence to the tenets of Chinese philosophies, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism? The disputes and long argument on the "a question answered" thread might show this to be failing miserably, as did the Cologne incident and the 1996 NY incident. Joe NewStudent in the 21st century doesn't go to an MA school to immerse himself in a Chinese culture which arguably is dying - he's there to learn some skills if someone confronts him walking home from the bus stop. Westerners might have been looking for the Oriental Mystique in the 70's, but not now.

A fitness program? A self-development movement?

A tradition or art/craft, in the same way as Hungarian Folk Dance or Rene's Appalalacian Folk Pottery.No need for evolution here - indeed, in many ways ruthless Darwinian style natural selection is gradually watering it down or wiping it out. People like Rene, Robert Chu and the VT museum are doing good here, though if they could stop the adolescent squabbling about who is a better historian than who then things might improve.

If it is a tradition which is becoming less relevant to the real world other than as a curiosity, what is lost should it be lost? Maybe a lot. But what, and why is it important?

For WC to survive, it will need to meet the needs of a changing populace in a changing environment who have access to more information than ever before and whose needs are more diverse than ever before. A flexible approach is needed lest the style become marginalised as a curiosity with little practical application to real world activities, be they self-defence or sporting.

[S.Teebas]

has it ever occured to you that someone who HAS mastered the basics and HAS a foundation in WC COULD POSSIBLY still arrive at the very same conclusion as me?

To have mastered the basics means this person would have absorbed and be able to put the theory into practice, so no i dont think they would.


as in maybe thinking there is value in training realistically in WC is not because we're lazy and want a quick fix?

I agree to train realistically. I was talking about your comment about WC being too much theory.


since WC is meant for FIGHTING in reality shouldn't one see if it works in such an environment as opposed to standing facing each other while rotating your arms in a pre-arranged way?
Im all for reality! :) I think WC people need to be able to stop full power punches using maximum powered muscular attacks! How else will we know it works? The only thing, is this required training takes a long time to develope the attributes to neturalise such forces.

Not sure what pre-arranged rotations you do (??) I dont do any pre-aranged ones. Chi sau has a few rules so you can actually learn from what your doing. Kind of like how you have to stay in class at school if you want to learn.


it's funny but i have to ask this. have you ever SEEN with your OWN eyes a fight by a wing chun practioner? with him using the textbook way of proper techniques?

Yes. With my OWN eyes i have.


as in using the exactly same stance as how it's in the forms and using all those nice traps and techniques you train so long in in chi sau?

Yep. :) But there was no trapping involved. I personally wouldn't try and trap somone on the street.

You dont sound like you have much confidence in the WC system, or its training methods.

[mun hung]

I disagree that "the required training takes a long time to develop the attributes to neutralize such forces".

How long should it take?

Was'nt Wing Chun created to be learned and applied quickly compared to other forms of kung fu?

I recently met "another serious WC man" with "years of experience" who could talk the talk - but could'nt walk the walk. He could'nt effectively handle one solid punch. Then I threw him two heavy punches and he was backpedaling just to get away. I wonder why this sort of thing happens.

I think it was because in all his years of practice, I don't think anyone had ever thrown him a real punch before.

Without application - it's only the dream of an armchair warrior.

I know this is off topic but I just wanted to say - sparring is not fighting. But it'll sure do more for you than posting on this forum ever will.

Goodnite.

[KenWingJitsu]

How much do you think is missing from modern WCK?
Realistic pressure testing...aka sparring. Too much (great) Theory, not enough testing it out. Too much 'discussion' not enough 'fighting'.

I think wing chun can defete styles like bjj in open competition.
OMG! Who wrote that? Look it's one thing to love wing chun, its another to get carried away. This will NEVER happen as long as Wing Chunners train the way they (mostly) do. However, those that train realistically against resisting opponents already know how.
Why would BJJ win every time? they are ALWAYS pressure testing their art, always sparring, always fighting against the big bad :striker' who wants to knock them out, so they know how to deal with it. Wc guys don't know how to deal with a grappler. BEign that I am priviledged to have studied both BJJ & WT, I know exactly what I'm talkiingg about. I can easily find clips of "wing Chun' guys being handed their ass by BJJ guys. Look on the web.

CAn a WC'er defeat a grappler? Yes...but ONLY IF HE TRAINS REALISTICALLY. Do some sparring against a grappler and see what comes up. Thankfully, we do this at our school regularly :D

[S.Teebas]

So basically you're in the camp that thinks wing chun is perfect as it is and doesnt' need changes.

My point is the theory is relevant. Didn't mention anything about changes. :confused:


I find it hilarious when I hear all these WC practioners who keep saying the mantra that wing chun doesn't need to change or that it no longer needs improvements

I find to hilarious when people who study WC say:


It's a simple system and efficient but could be made even simplier and more efficient.

What ways do you think it coulds be made simpler? Please provide a few examples.


...then why would you not try to trap on the street?

Becasue i dont try and do anything in particular. If its on offer and it's there, then i'll take it.



i meant the format is pre-arranged. Two people stand facing each other beginning in a horse stance and rotating their arms as WING CHUN practiners would do.

How else can we do chi-sau?


Pretty limited if you don't do much else don't you think?

Yep. That's why I like to integrate theory (which a lot can be learned and absorbed in chi-sau) with a combination of sparing. I dont think, like you say, that the theory "is not used or needed"


but wing chun practioners spend most of their time on fancy traps!!! doesn't it sound like they should spend more time instead on free fighting?

I dont spend much time on traps. But i think free fighting can be good too, as long as you're using WC.

Please answer the questions ive posed to you, as ive taken the time to answer yours. :)