obssession with competition [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

SaMantis

01-26-2003, 11:57 AM

ShaolinTiger, while I can respect your opinion of the state of kung fu, I can't agree with the reasons you give.

Kungfu = Jujutsu . A conglomerate of hundreds of styles, with no connecting principles flowing thru them. Lack of testing (war) led to influx of impractical technique

Conglomeration or not, connecting principles are a basic foundation of kung fu systems. If you can't get from Point A to Point B in a fighting combination, your attacks (and defenses for that matter) will be limited and most likely ineffective. Learning to move naturally and almost instinctively in a fight is why connecting principles are taught.

Sanshou = Judo.

Wrong. Few judo players I've ever met can hit as well as they grapple. Although they can choke you out. :D Right on the maximum efficiency idea, though. Sanshou is all about fighting in a ring, for competition. Also, I don't think most sanshou fighters train with beer as part of their diet, which I thought was the best part of my brief foray into judo.

Kungfu's "morals" - Clinging on the coat tails of Shaolin monks. reading scripts of futile aspirations, tea ceremonies and plenty of neo- confusionism for all. Believing that they are honoring their ancestors.

I agree that some kungfu neophytes worship the Shaolin monks and the idea of shaolin, while others buy everything that looks Chinese, kung fu-ish or otherwise and start creating their own confucian ideals. Personally, I don't think there's a **** thing wrong with this -- it's a way of exploring a culture that's new to you.

Honoring your ancestors is a very important tradition in kung fu. And this is where I think you're getting kung fu "morals" (wu de) confused with kung fu tradition. Your description of Sanshou's focus ("discipline, respect, focus, determination, camaraderie, etc.") is wu de, and this moral code permeates all kung fu.

Tradition itself is important because it upholds the principle of wu de (or should). Honoring the ancestors? Respect. Practicing stances & basics? Discipline. Focus. Determination. Treating those you train with and those you interact with fairly? Respect and camaraderie. Modern military units uphold traditions, as well -- not because they make you more efficient or a better fighter, but because they glue the unit together as a family.

Kungfu has become synonymous with "new age" and "holistic".

Um, "holistic" is a term to describe a "whole person." Traditional kung fu works to develop a whole person, so what's wrong with that?

When you say "new age" you're probably thinking of some skinny, bearded California hippie who does yoga and just happened to pick up a tai chi form at some seminar and now teaches it at day spas. Yes, this type of person gives both martial arts AND new age a bad name. But my experience in kung fu has been that this type of "new-ager" can't stick with the program for several years. Your heart has to be in the right place to accomplish anything, and all the love beads and peace signs in the world won't make your kung fu better.

Now, if you happen to be a vegetarian pacifist who can also kick ass (and I know a few) -- ShaolinTiger00 seems to be looking for some proof of it. Shaolin, give them your address so they can demonstrate that kung fu is still alive and kicking. I recommend wearing headgear before you answer the door. :D

ShaolinTiger00

01-26-2003, 12:01 PM

William Easlick

4516 Chestnut St.
Bethesda MD 20814

Please come before 8.pm. the baby will be asleep.
:)

SaMantis

01-26-2003, 12:02 PM

Oh, and uh, back to the original topic ...

IMO competition for traditional MA's is OK if it helps to advance their style or system. If they do it for purely personal gain, to the point where they train for a ring fight above all else, then they're a detriment to their system. (Unless their system is muay thai or judo, which are only about sport competition.)

Martial arts systems that train the whole person -- body, spirit, mind -- should list competition as only one facet of a student's training.

ShaolinTiger00

01-26-2003, 12:20 PM

Sanshou is all about fighting in a ring, for competition.
Wrong. couldn't be further from the truth. Sanshou is about fighting in reality where grappling and punching are present. Its about controling your opponent so he is out of the fight.

If you can't get from Point A to Point B in a fighting combination, your attacks (and defenses for that matter) will be limited and most likely ineffective.

Exactly the reason why kungfu fails.

Wrong. Few judo players I've ever met can hit as well as they grapple.

I didn't mean that litterally! sanshou is to kung fu as judo is to jujustu. But I'm glad you understand the gist.. which btw - sanshou guys LOVE beer!! helps numb the pain after a fight!

Honoring your ancestors is a very important tradition in kung fu. It is important but when you train in archaic manner, dress as they do, use medicine they used, etc. it has become hindering

Mutant

01-26-2003, 01:03 PM

i think that the 'obsession' comes from many people's views that MMA is more relevant in todays world than traditional kung fu (or whatever traditional art), and in many ways, it is.

but remember that many of the 'fans' are the same armchair slackers who watch the WWE soap-operas and they make me sick as well. and the ignorace and unfounded arrogance of the unskilled average MMA guy who trains no harder than the casual traditional ma hobbiest but thinks he is better because thats what he has been told...well thats annoying too.

fawning over the pro fighters as an couch-potato fan is very unappealing to me (well at least those fans pay the fighters salaries)

but obsessing over the modern full-contact training aspect of it is easy to get hooked on because it requires just as holistic an approach as traditional training. its a full-time life changing type of training requiring tailoring diet, curbing bad habits such as drinking and smoking, becoming very aware if not obsessive about muscle & tendon strenghtening/stretching/condioning/recovery and general body conditioning, becoming aware of youre breathing and heart-rate on a high level, constant training and improvement of technique, adequate rest and recovery time, therapy such as dit jow, boxining linament and icing just to heal your regularly banged up body. medatation and creative visualization, etc, etc. one must train constantly and obsessively just to be able to hang with the high-level fighters in the ring/lei-tei. and this has its own rewards and transformative results.

so the training obsession i can understand & relate to and i think that it can be postitive.
the creepy couch potato mma-fighter worshippers need to get a life though.
i think there is value to both the 'traditional' kung fu and the modern training approach. it depends on the individual, what they want to get out of it and how they want to spend their time.

GunnedDownAtrocity

01-26-2003, 02:30 PM

mmmmmmm..... beer.

SaMantis

01-26-2003, 03:44 PM

sanshou guys LOVE beer!!

LOL -- OK, maybe I'll try sanshou now :D

Dressing as the ancestors did in your day-to-day life IS a little weird. Some folks wear a chinese-style coat and pants in tai chi class, and they're real comfortable, so why not? But if they hung around their office in those outfits, that would be strange.

As far as traditional liniments and medicines, jow, acupuncture -- it's important to understand what's at work with chinese medicines, not just "Product X will stimulate the lung meridian et al." If one finds out the herbal ingredients in a jow or internal medicine, learns their function (in a Western sense) and learns why and how they are used, they become less archaic and much more useful. For example, one cold jow I use, an off-the-shelf product, contains menthol, camphor and cinnamon. Menthol and camphor are used in many western products for sore muscles. I also use Tiger Balm, which is another type of jow.

If you take an "ooh, it's magic" approach to chinese medicine then that's detrimental, because you're setting yourself up for con artists, or even a lifetime membership to Chung Moo Doe.

I'd like to see more scientific-method-type analysis performed on many chinese medicines, but I think many ancient formulas will hold up to their claims.

GunnedDownAtrocity

01-26-2003, 04:16 PM

shaolintiger ... you should ease up on kung lek a little dude. he's old now and doesn't always know what he's saying.

Laughing Cow

01-26-2003, 04:19 PM

Competitions.

Personally, I am not that fond of them.

Don't get me wrong I think it is good and needed that MA test their skills and learn from that experience.

I just don't think it needs to be done in front of many people with prize moneys, trophies and so on.

As one of my Sifu liked to say "You are tested every second of your life".

As for modern competitions like the UFC, NHB, Pride or similar, they take a real full-time commitment.
Now most MA don't train to enter those competitions nor are interested in doing so.

IMO, competitions will not give you the same level of detailed feedback as a good sparring session.

Why, in competitions you try to win/ beat your opponent and not learn from your experience.
Thus your aim/goal differ.

I think controlled sparring session invlving multiple styles and so on are more benefitial to your skill development.
Plus, in addition you can sit down with your sparring partners and discuss what happened and share advise.

FENG ZHIQIANG

Although martial arts are about fighting, one should not think about fighting during practice. The fighting skill comes naturally after a certain time of correct practice.

GunnedDownAtrocity

01-26-2003, 04:24 PM

kung lek ... on topic ... isn't pupee also about accepting others without judgement? realizing they have reasons for feeling the way they do and leaving it at that? not to the point where communication is dead, but in always leaving breathing room for the other side of the discussion. you seem to be as opinionated as most of the traditonal bashers (though not closed minded). not that i myself am not very opinionated, but i openly admit that im a terrible person making no effort to improve.

GunnedDownAtrocity

01-26-2003, 04:28 PM

.... i also want to make it clear that i dont think being opinionated is a bad thing. shows character in most cases. it just seems to directly contridict this wude stuff you preach.

David Jamieson

01-26-2003, 04:29 PM

:D

yes, i am a little opinionated. in some cases without any grounds for being so, but it's a forum, so you gotta start somewhere.

cheers

HuangKaiVun

01-26-2003, 06:25 PM

I agree with Kung Lek.

Actually, most people I know who are in the martial arts do as well.

Competition is like 0.0000000001 of what learning martial arts is about.

I have a student who, after training with me, went off his blood pressure medication at his doctor's request.

THAT is what kung fu is all about.

Merryprankster

01-26-2003, 06:48 PM

Kung Lek;

Arguing that "most of the guys who do well at these competitions are professionals," is overstating the case. Most of the guys who compete in MMA or in BJJ comps are closer to your 6 days a week fellow. I'm a prime example. I have a job, I train twice a day 6 days a week, and I compete regularly. I've never once gotten paid for what I do, and regularly shell out cash to do it. Our fighters are the same. One is a teacher, the other is a teacher in training, etc. Many from other schools train only one session per day, and also at our school, depending on their schedules.

Now, the guys who succeed at the TOP level are pros. But the other guys--9 to 5ers who do this stuff on the side. There is NO reason a 6 day a week guy with an itch to compete in MMA couldn't do it.

Huang, I'm willing to bet any exercise would have helped his situation. Not detracting from what you do--just suggesting there may be nothing unique at work here.

MonkeySlap Too

01-26-2003, 07:23 PM

Merryprankster - you are absoloutly right.

I've recently started to emerge from maintenance mode to full score training - and it feels great. I did it when I was younger, and I love it now. Of course in my day, there was no NHB, just San Da and back alley stuff. I marvel at the caliber of athletes being pulled into MMA, and me and my hearty little group would like to bring forward some good CMA skills.

Frankly, I don't understand people who claim competition is not important. Sure there are things you can do when you are not fighting - coach, train for fun, train for health, but if you never fight - you are not doing a martial art. I'm surprised no one seems to note that first word - martial.

Most of the great players in CMA history loved to fight and practice thier skill. It is only recently that this has been seen as somehow unrealated to martial arts, which is wierd. Don't you think?

Now, I'm not knocking people who won't compete, but really, the best way to face yourself, and develop your training for practical use - is to use it against uncooperating opponents. Like I said above, if you really want to defeat yourself, the best way to do it is in the ring.

It doesn't even have to be formal competition. Right now I just 'play' with friends. But it helps keep my skills real.

The failure to test your skills demonstrates a lack of confidence in your training. Or an ego that is afraid to lose. Both things that demonstrate the lie in the Qi hugging POV.

While I too, have been guilty of things like HKV said above - you can use training to improve people, that is a lucky side benefit. And actually you can get most of those benefits more efficiently and cheaper at a good gym. Really.

MonkeySlap Too

01-26-2003, 07:25 PM

Please note - I don't expect people to always be in the sparring mode - heck for the last five years my career was the most important thing - I trauined, but I was not the monster I was. That's okay. But you MUST fight at some point if you want to have kung fu.

And I gotta tell you, I love getting back into it.

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 08:17 PM

It doesn't even have to be formal competition. Right now I just 'play' with friends. But it helps keep my skills real.

agreed, thats what i pretty much do nowadays when i cant train in class with my Sifu and others. its pretty fun :)

MP: i respect you guys that organise your time to train so much and pay your way for events - back when i did full contact karate comps it was the same... that was one reason i stopped actually as there was NO governemnt funding for national and international comps and my family couldnt afford it :(

I admire the skill that people who do compete have and develop, but again everyone has different reasons for training and different priorities... sure fighting skill is there but thats maybe not the most important to them. Right now as im coming out of depression and not trained in over 6 months most important is getting me back in shape, so thats why i do more stretching, qigong and basics.

dawood

rogue

01-26-2003, 08:45 PM

Let's face facts, a large part of us in the martial arts are competitive, and we can be found at the elite level of MMA all the way down to class sparring sessions. I'm not even close to the calbre or training of Merryprankster or STII, but I'll seek out the best guys in my class to fight against. When all the schools get together I already had my eye on the guys I wanted to go against. Why else go to the gym and lift, or wake up early to work the heavy bag? Competition is one factor that drives some of us, be it making me train at class 4 1/2 hours weekly or Merryprankster 6 hours daily.

BTW Merryprankster, I 'm not putting myself in your league and I hope you don't mind me dropping your name.
signed,
Rogue the toady.:D

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 08:55 PM

yup agreed, training with others is just plain fun :D its not neccessarily competitive though, just sharing and enjoying training imo.

dawood

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 09:13 PM

"many of the posters here are seemingly obssessed with ufc/pride/nhb/wwe etc etc. and claim on their heroes in these events."

Is that any different from the posters here who are obsessed with their lineage and how their style's founder was 500 - 0 in challenge matches and had awesome chi capabilities?

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 09:17 PM

7* - its human nature, so i got no probs with either :) its only when it gets taken too far that it gets a bit difficult.

dawood

Laughing Cow

01-26-2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by dezhen2001
yup agreed, training with others is just plain fun :D its not neccessarily competitive though, just sharing and enjoying training imo.

dawood

Have to agree there.

Competitiveness is a "mindset" not a particular skill or action.

For me having a competitive "mindset" diminshes the learning value of sparring, as the goal/outcome becomes more important than what it takes to get there.

Which is a big no-no in my style, and we are constantly reminded not to develop such a mindset as it will hinder our learning/growing progress.

1.) No brutality
2.) No Arrogance
3.) No Competing with others
4.) No Disrespect
5.) To work with your nature without competing
6.) Sheji Chongren:
"Giving oneself over to follow the Opponent"
7.) Fangsong:
"Open and peacful relaxation"

Just my thoughts.

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by awakenwired

I feel the average Joe cannot compete in these types of events. MMA training or otherwise. I personally would love to compete at that level but at this moment for me and every other average Joe it's inconceivable. The possible injuries would cause me to not make it to work, eventually lose my job, and the time on the road would not make the boss, or the wife happy. I train 6 days a week, half at home, half in the kwoon, but because of my undeniable limitations due to everyday responsibilities I cannot compete at the level I ultimately wish, so the question comes up why do i train at all? I trust that you are all great martial atrist, and know that non of you really need me to answer that question. It would take too long. But I believe this is where the original posters point would come in. :)

I have to disagree there - I have several fighters at my school who compete in events like revolution and (soon) king of the cage. Also, quentin jackson is from my city, and he was another "average joe" you know how quentin got to pride? he decided he wanted to fight at a local event, so he did. some people heard about the amazing showing he had, and the next thing you know, Pride called him. His first pro fight ws against Sak and the rest is history. We train 4 - 5 days a week for about 3 hours per session. We all have jobs, and most have families. If you have the drive, it can be done. We have local events here, so they get plenty of amateur experience. to fight in an event in another city, they only have to take off for the weekend and maybe monday.

dezhen2001

01-26-2003, 09:55 PM

respect to you guys!

If you have the drive, it can be done. sums it up nicely buddy :)

dawood

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

IMO, competitions will not give you the same level of detailed feedback as a good sparring session.

Why, in competitions you try to win/ beat your opponent and not learn from your experience.
Thus your aim/goal differ.

That will vary from person to person. I personally do it for the learning and for the fight itself - I don't care about winning. matter of factly, I give my trophies and medals to my parents because my mother likes to display them at her house. IMO, competition is an excellent learning tool.

Plus, in addition you can sit down with your sparring partners and discuss what happened and share advise.

You can talk to your opponents after a match. Also, you can tape the matches, talk to your coaches, etc.

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by dezhen2001
7* - its human nature, so i got no probs with either :) its only when it gets taken too far that it gets a bit difficult.

dawood

yeah, that's the way I feel about it too.

Laughing Cow

01-26-2003, 10:09 PM

Sevenstar.

Couldn't you get the same from an "open door" sparring session, with many different stylists attending??

This you could do on an even more regular basis than competition.

I just don't see why those benefits have to come from a competition or what makes a competition superior to an open door sparring session.

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 10:19 PM

because of the setting. you're there, in front of people, adrenealine rushing, ready to go. It's not the same in a non- competitive atmosphere. Also, how likely are you to get people to an open door session? take a judo or bjj tourney for instance. people will come from several states to compete. I seriously doubt they would travel across states for an open door training session. prizes tend to drive some people, to motivate them. the competition circuit gives you the opportunity to meet those
people.

Also, it's been said in this thread that the "average joe" can't put in the time it takes to compete. Well, I don't want to compare skills with the average joe. I want to compare skills with someone who can hand my arse to me. That's how I learn the most. I know there are non competitive types who can hand me my arse, but how likely am I to find them? with competition, I know I am going against people who train as hard as me or harder.

Laughing Cow

01-26-2003, 10:23 PM

7*.

I hear what you are saying.

At the same time there were many places in olden day China that had an open door policy which was known and MA from all over the Empire came to attend and study without the lure of prize-money and a competition.

I think the difference between the MA of old and now is their mindset.

Just my thoughts, thanks, for your reply.

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 10:26 PM

true, I definitely agree with that. sport fighting has adopted that mindset, however, which I think is a definite plus to sport fighting.

GunnedDownAtrocity

01-26-2003, 10:30 PM

"I know there are non competitive types who can hand me my arse, but how likely am I to find them? with competition, I know I am going against people who train as hard as me or harder."

that's a good point i havent heard brought up before.

Brad Souders

01-26-2003, 10:40 PM

I think anyone who competes in MMA type events is
A. Someone out to raise their ego
B. Doesn't get laid alot
C. Really has no other life

Awe sh*t my bad that's my life sorry wrong thread.

LOL but what the hell do i know i can't even shoot right in san shou

Brad "respect my MMA" Souders lol

SevenStar

01-26-2003, 10:48 PM

yeah, that's especially true if you are training in a style that is rare in your city. if you only have one kung fu school in your area, for example, who are you going to compare CMA notes with? There are possibly people around who teach closed door, but can you find them? If not, at least you can compete and find all the CMA guys that you want to.

Also, people who train to compete train harder than most who don't compete, I would guess.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 07:56 AM

I think it is just a matter of being able to appreciate these guys who are out there testing themselves in the ring. I think more often then not, most martial artist would like to be in that situation, especially if they were good enough to be winning ;)

"holistic transformative Kungfu training "

hippy crap.......

MightyB

01-27-2003, 08:24 AM

The obsession with competition and such is the difference between doers and wannabees.

It's obvious who's actually competed in reality events by the responses in the threads.

Those who criticize have never done it themselves. How do they know anything? They don't. They feel that fighting one drunk one time when they were in highschool makes them some kind've skilled streetfighter. Try the ring and see how it feels to fight a real martial artist. Only those who dare to lose can truly win.

Besides, it comes down to credability. Do you want to learn from some guy who tries to teach you what he thinks it is like to be in a fight, or from somebody who's actually tasted the pain of the ring-- who actually knows combat.

San Shou and MMA isn't always about the pride of winning. You guys who think it is don't know anybody who competes do you? I would rather hang out with San Shou guys any day because there's a comadre and humility there that you outsiders will never know. We do it to prove to ourselves that we can. My goal, like all those who compete, has always been to make myself into the best martial artist that I can be. I know who I am and what my capabilities are. Do you? How can you claim to be a great martial artist if you don't even truly know yourself?

red5angel

01-27-2003, 08:27 AM

"We do it to prove to ourselves that we can."

Well said MightyB, thats my motivation for training to compete as well.

MightyB

01-27-2003, 08:31 AM

My goal is actually something that my Sifu calls "Mon Gei" (spelling phonetically). It means "No Mind". It's the true ability to apply kung fu because a person who has achieved mon gei has no apprehension or fear holding them back. They simply react as necessary. You can't reach mon gei by wishing on the first star you see at night.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 08:40 AM

Makes sense to me, and one might look at that as the apex of martial training, to reach the point of "no mind", no matter what your other goals may be. For instance I can say honestly that I just want to fight. No real spiritual, emotional, mental reasons for doing it other then what I said before, to show myself I can. To be as good as I want to be, I train and train so that at some point my mind forgets and my body takes over......

apoweyn

01-27-2003, 09:29 AM

kung lek,

obssession with competition. what is that all about anyway?

depends. that question has two very different sides. those obsessed with competing and those obsessed with the competitions. while the motivations for each vary a little, those two broad categories are worlds apart.

people obsessed with the competitions, without actually competing themselves, are about the same regardless of the specific sport. the guy that goes bonkers over tito ortiz is about the same as the guy that brings the stats books to the baseball games and spends the whole time recording, mapping, charting, etc. vicariousness, i suppose.

that's a totally different type of person from the actual competitor. personally, i don't much buy the money-glory argument in competition. there's not enough money in martial arts competition to make it worth the hours of training. like merryprankster pointed out, you'll end up paying far more to compete than you ever get paid on average.

glory? i'm sure there's an ego boost in it, yeah. but no more so than comes from being a high-ranking member of a traditional school. wearing the black sash. having people call you 'sir.' standing at the front of the lineup. etc. all of that is a big ego stroke. without the inherent risk of competition. the ever-present possibility that you'll lose in front of an audience. people who compete are, at some point, going to lose. and there's nothing ego stroking about that.

many of the posters here are seemingly obssessed with ufc/pride/nhb/wwe etc etc. and claim on their heroes in these events.

is that really any different from the obsession with lineage and heroes of the past? it's an appeal to authority. "i know that what i'm doing is good because sifu blahblah used to travel from school to school defeating their best fighters."

actually, it is a little different (though arguably no better). fewer degrees of separation in the appeal to authority. many people cite the success of martial artists who came hundreds of years before them in the lineage. other people cite the success of a guy that succeeded last month. on pay-per-view. so we could all observe it rather than go based on 100-year-old hearsay. no chance of distortion or exaggeration because anyone so inclined could go and rent the tape. see it for themselves.

what is it that you see in these events that translates as acquiring "kungfu"?

well, let's turn that question around. what is it about your experience that constitutes kung fu? if we knew that, perhaps we could determine whether those same factors occurred for other people who compete. and what form those factors took in competition.

It's fighting. ok

it's competitive fighting for money. ok

cheap debate tactic, kung lek. shame on you. throwing the 'for money' jab in there is just an attempt to portray competitors as mercenaries or something. you know as well as i do how little money there is to be made in martial arts competition. anyone doing it solely to make a buck would have to be dumber than a bag of hammers.

it's got some excellent grapplers and stand up martial artists. ok

it's got some naturals who do a little of this , a little of that and win. ok

another lame debate tactic. "a little of this and a little of that." that's incredibly dismissive, kung lek. and as an authority on kung fu and a moderator, frankly, you need to do more than this. describing MMA in such simplistic terms is an act of intellectual laziness at best. dishonesty at worst.

but ultimately, where does holistic transformative Kungfu training come into this picture?

again, how does it come into the picture in your experience? how have you transformed?

If your teacher wants you to enter one of these things don't you think you would start by watching a few videos, breaking out the moves of the winners and training to counter against those?

The guys who really do well in these competitions are professionals. THey don't have day jobs, (for the most part). THey have the time to give 6 a day every day to the fight training.

If you are one of these guys, great! but if you are a typical 6 a week Kung fu/karate/tkd/mt etc etc person that doesn't train at home and against resisting opponents of different backgrounds, then it's a tv fantasy.

regardless of how often you train, if you actually get into a ring, that experience (whether you win or get horribly mauled) is a whole lot less fantastical than confining your experience to the closed system of your school. even open sparring is going to leave more room for fantasy than competition. the drive to win, the distractions, the psychological pressure, all are heightened in a competition.

Anyway, I just hope that I don't ever become an armchair martial artist. at least not until I'm really old and can hardly move.

i'm confused. is this a different point entirely? or are you suggesting that competitors are armchair martial artists?

if you're suggesting that spectators are armchair martial artists, then i'd agree wholeheartedly. but those people exist in all camps.

food for thought

yep. but the bottom line, in my opinion, is that things don't fall along the lines that we seem to want to paint for them. traditional. modern. internal. external. competitive. noncompetitive. all bullsh-t. in every sector of this community, you're going to have people who are posing, people who are riding on the coattails of others. and people who, day in and day out, are working to make their martial arts practice a 'transformative experience.' that transformation takes different forms. but i doubt anyone who's serious about what they do, whether they love or hate this sort of mystical terminology, can argue that their lives would be precisely the same if they didn't practice their arts.

to ascribe that sort of experience to your way of doing things without giving serious thought to how it might manifest itself in other ways of doing things is a disservice.

stuart b.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 09:37 AM

I'm all choked up Ap, if I could fight half as good as you can argue I would be king of the world!

apoweyn

01-27-2003, 09:39 AM

well, if i could fight half as good as i can argue, i'd probably be half as good at arguing.

...

is that right?

...

my head hurts.

stuart b.

rogue

01-27-2003, 09:40 AM

even open sparring is going to leave more room for fantasy than competition. Aint that the truth, and I will hold onto those fantasies as long as I can!:p

Hmmm, so far nobody has used the I'm competing against myself ploy. I used to compete against myself until I found out myself always cheated.

apoweyn

01-27-2003, 09:41 AM

I used to compete against myself until I found out myself always cheated.

LOL!

red5angel

01-27-2003, 10:44 AM

"but ultimately, where does holistic transformative Kungfu training come into this picture?"

This comment sort of irks me. It's ok with me if you have other reasons for learning the martial arts then fighting. However, what is really starting to **** me off is this holier then thou attitude that if you are not seeking spiritual enlightenment, to better oneself, or to grow as an individual but I think I have to go with Merrypranksters tirades here, martial arts isn't some sort of personal improvement plan. It isn't designed to build character or to allow one to reach some sort of mystical transcendance. It's there frankly so that one may kick a$$ when recquired, for sport or for defense/attack. If you choose to turn it into a journey into personal improvement plan or feel it's going to give you some sort of psiritual growth, thats fine, but don't disparage those who want to learn it and uise it for what it is, fighting.
I don't feel that just because I want to fight in competition or that I like to watch martial competitions, it makes me some sort of underdeveloped neanderthal, genetics did that. I have met some real honorable and highly thought of men who take the martial arts for nothing more then what it is at its most basic level.

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 11:52 AM

great post.

red5.

rogue

01-27-2003, 11:57 AM

Oh great, someone has irked red5angel. When he uses the phrase "my panties are in a wad" everybody better duck and cover!:eek:

apoweyn

01-27-2003, 12:01 PM

When he uses the phrase "my panties are in a wad" everybody better duck and cover!

when red5angel mentions his panties at all, a therapist gets his wings... er, fees.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 12:01 PM

Thanks ST00, sorry about the rant guys but seriously, I consider myself a kungfu guy at heart and I just get tired of hearing this bs.
I never once decided that my training was going to do anything for me except teach me how to fight. I trained next to guys and gals who felt differently about it, and the only real difference that I saw was that those who were learning to fight, seemed to fight better then those who sought other things. Could be coincidence, but I am not so sure. At some point it's like, why don't you just take up something like meditation or yoga of some sort to get your spiritual needs fulfilled?
And please please do yourself a favor and don't go teaching the crap if fighting isn't ultimately your goal. What I mean by fighting is that you are learning because you either want to fight better, or want to get yourself out of a fight better when your verbal skills have failed you. I say this because some poor kid is going to come along and want to learn to defend himself or fight and he is going ot get seriously hurt or killed because while he thought he was learning to defend himself effectively he was actually just being indoctrinated into someons personal religion.

'Rogue and Ap - to be fair I was under the influence when those pictures were taken, I was young, and didn't know what I was getting into......

Merryprankster

01-27-2003, 12:13 PM

Rogue,

The only time I train 6 hours a day is Saturday. And that's usually more like 4.5 to 5 hours.

I train twice a day. But I don't train 3 hours each session. I probably train 3-4 hours per day, total.

What matters is your intensity. What's your focus like? I hate to be on the mat and not do anything. And I know other schools where it's social hour. Hate that.

Merryprankster

01-27-2003, 12:24 PM

Here's one more plus:

Competition is a reality check. I know exactly what I can do and exactly what needs work. I know if I'd worked on getting my free hand on the guy's f'in gi/neck in a triangle, hard, I wouldn't have lost in the finals this weekend, because I would have kept him there.

By contrast we met a guy who decided to compete this weekend who does some sort of--something. He was a brown belt and wanted to enter the brown belt division. One of my acquaintances looked straight at him and said--you'd better enter the white belt division.

He looked shocked and snotty and said "But I'm a BROWN belt."

He did finally enter the purple belt division. And lost in 20 secs by takedown, mount, and armbar.

Competition breeds humility. Those that don't believe it, have probably never competed. *******s are *******s, and they'd be that way if they played at creative breaking or chess.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 12:28 PM

MP- A straight shot, why is it you compete?

Merryprankster

01-27-2003, 12:37 PM

For fun. And because I recognize that to be the best you can be you have to go against the best. Untested greatness ain't all that great.

But mostly for fun. Ask a writer why they write.

Paraphrasing TR--Life goes to those who strive rather than those who sit on their ass and criticize.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 12:41 PM

Sounds cool to me. So you don't do this for profit?! :eek:

By the way, do you BJJ types have a network of some sort that might be able to help me find an instructor around here locally?

Suntzu

01-27-2003, 12:44 PM

I cant believe I haven't added to this thread… I have a total blank… but yeah… its fun… addictive… rewarding… and painful… even for the armchair MAist…

Merryprankster

01-27-2003, 12:44 PM

www.mma.tv

Ask on the BJJ forum.

Nope. Everything I've done, I've paid for. If I can put together some big wins though, I'll start looking for a sponsorship.

Lao_Peng_You

01-27-2003, 01:15 PM

My view on this subject:

Historically CMA'ists fought both in competitions and challenge matches. I know this is not earth shattering news, but it's a way we achieve many things that we practice for, so I don't understand the shame in it. It's a way to understand our craft better. You can listen to Mozart, you can play Mozart's music, or you can be Mozart.

If you take a look at all the reletive philisophical ideas that most CMA stem from, you cannot reach step 4 and 5 without maximizing steps 1-3. To me, this means that you must take your body, your emotions, and your mind to their extreme in order to make serious break throughs on your spiritual side.

If you do not want to acheive this as a marialist, there are other ways, but it still is the same, ultimately. Sitting in the lotus position for hours is physically painfull, takes a great deal of concentration to go through your meditations, is only usefull if you have a certain direction, and if you make a conscious breakthrough, it is usually emotionally taxing, etc.

Some, if not most martialists do not include a conscious spirituality into their craft. That is their choice, who cares? I will say that most martialist have an inkling that what they do at the time during competition is an "enlightening" experience. Why, because at some point, if not the whole time they are competing, they are to some degree "present". If they lose this consciousness, they will lose as well most likely.

I do, however, believe that competition can only take you so far, even as a martial artist. That's why many who rely only on competition to drive them will ultimately achieve only so much, and will eventually quit, or become strictly teachers to maintain a connection to a certain "feeling".

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 01:19 PM

Red,

'02 West Metro Boxing MN Brooklyn Park
Minnesota Martial Arts Academy MN Brooklyn Park
West Metro Boxing & Martial Arts MN Brooklyn Park

red5angel

01-27-2003, 01:21 PM

LPY - "believe that competition can only take you so far, even as a martial artist. That's why many who rely only on competition to drive them will ultimately achieve only so much, and will eventually quit, or become strictly teachers to maintain a connection to a certain "feeling"."

Can you explain this a little more please? I am not sure exactly what you are getting at here. I say this because as martial artist we seek to hone our combatitive skills, generally speaking. Now with proper training, exersise, and competition, whether it be official or just in your school or around town in other not so organized events, what else could you get or where else could you go with it?

Lao_Peng_You

01-27-2003, 01:44 PM

You're right R5, it was vague.

I mean, and hope you have a reference to "self mastery". This is a loaded term, and can give you my email to discuss it further if you'd like, as this may kill this thread.

red5angel

01-27-2003, 01:53 PM

LPY - feel free to email me at jabradley"nospam"@deloitte.com and we can discuss. I think these guys here on this board would be interested as well though.

It is a loaded term and I think I am with you, but why don't you go ahead and explain what you mean anyway?

apoweyn

01-27-2003, 01:53 PM

actually, it sounds very pertinent to this thread. i'd like to see it too, if you don't specifically object to posting it here.

stuart b.

Golden Arms

01-27-2003, 02:03 PM

On Topic: Yeah Competition has its place, or at least testing your skills and talent, etc DEF. have their place in any real martial art. I am also a big believer in fighting and putting yourself on the line if you are going to be a serious MA. That is what martial is all about, and what it was about for any serious combative student, be they Samurai, Olympic Wrestlers, Grapplers, etc.

Now, to address something else...?Chinese martial arts are dead!!?

Again I am forced to bring up the example of Mas Oyama. In fact I will post a handy link for you below. Can you honestly say that if anyone worth his salt in chinese martial arts went and trained the way Oyama did, they wouldnt be able to wreak major havoc on 95% of the population? In my view sanshou and mma work because they are good no nonsense systems, and you can train 6 hours a day and kick some ass! However a lot of CMA are really really in depth, usually to the point where unless one trains for 10-20 years or 6 hours a day or more, they dont really even have a prayer of using all that stuff, its just too much. BUT IF YOU DID TRAIN THAT MUCH, YOU HAVE THE TOOLS TO DEAL WITH PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING. Again, How do you plan on fighting someone that can kill a bull with one punch, shake trees with their punches, and take on 270+ challengers without losing? Think its lame chinese legend? Wrong...its the story of Mas Oyamas life, and it happened fairly recently. Search for his name on google and tell me you could take him.

http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/oyama/

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 02:23 PM

How do you plan on fighting someone that can kill a bull with one punch

Widely rumored to have been fixed.

and Kimura could have thrashed him. ;)

Watchman

01-27-2003, 02:32 PM

However a lot of CMA are really really in depth, usually to the point where unless one trains for 10-20 years or 6 hours a day or more, they dont really even have a prayer of using all that stuff, its just too much. BUT IF YOU DID TRAIN THAT MUCH, YOU HAVE THE TOOLS TO DEAL WITH PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING.

Why would you want to sweat it out for that long just to have the hope that it MIGHT work? If someone tells me that it takes years before what they're teaching is applicable, I'm walking out the door.

Also, why would one want to train a bunch of stuff that he knows he'll never use?

Even if a ten year, 6 hour a day training regimen paid off, how does that even compare to another art's two year, two hour a day regimen that garners the same or better results?

Which is better?

GunnedDownAtrocity

01-27-2003, 02:32 PM

from mas' 11 principles or soemthing on that site:

10. The true essence of the Martial Way can only be realized through experience. Knowing this, learn never to fear its demand.

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 02:36 PM

Why would you want to sweat it out for that long just to have the hope that it MIGHT work? If someone tells me that it takes years before what they're teaching is applicable, I'm walking out the door.

Exactly! When I could take a young man, get him in the gym 3x a week and in 6 months of boxing be fully confident that he can punch well enough to hold his own. and he still can lead a normal life

good to see you again watchman.

Volcano Admim

01-27-2003, 02:40 PM

Well, youngs ones competive fighters, obviously duno the depths of wide academics caliber here display that i just say: "I am better of you". Time spend in competive is best if you kick the table many times again to stretch the pants. Competive makes you have small boner as a roll model to proper reality fighting and correct maner.

lkfmdc

01-27-2003, 02:51 PM

My sifu was born in 1917 in mainland China, was raised by a Buddhist monk in a Buddhist monastery, he is about as real a Chinese martial artist as you can find left on the planet.

He was sure into fighting, and fighting for REAL. Unlike 99.5% of the current crop of "martial artists" out there, he used his skills to KILL PEOPLE, because China wasn't such a nice place back then and it was his job, he was in the army

He was also into "competition", fought in provincial free sparring championships and all military championships, made us put on the boxing gloves and spar. He didn't want an illusions or BS, actually, some of the stuff he said about people claiming to do Chinese martial art if I repeated here would get me banned for life

Sometime after my teacher's generation, several generations have come to the conclusion that TCMA is some sort of esoteric basket weaving, in which we eat granola, get in touch with our centers and feel good about ourselves.

Frankly, it makes me SICK

MMA, the UFC, Pride, etc is NO DIFFERENT than the many, many, many challenge matches which were part of TCMA for generations before the afore mentioned watering down and new age feel good blah blah yin yang...

deal with it

Lao_Peng_You

01-27-2003, 02:55 PM

Alright then,

I'm referencing the 5 element, ba gua, and yin and yang theories in terms of self mastery for this. If you're not familiar, research it, as I don't have complete knowledge, and don't want to fill the database.

If you compete against someone for a goal, you have to have "fire". Fire burns out pretty fast. If you fail or succeed at your goal, you will quit this particular "competition" either way, as you will eventually burn out your desire for this acheivement. I make that assumption based on human nature. Even if you have a strong will, this drive will only last for so long. Again, as a MA you can't skip this step. You have to be interested in perfecting your physical body, perfecting techique, diet, etc, and competing will give you this desire (the yang). Some may refer to this as jing to some extent as well. At a higher level, you can train your instincts. You will get hints of the next type of training when competing or trying to acheive this goal.

What's left after this? If you're interested in the spiritual side, you know you've just begun. Development of Qi is usually next. Now, I'm not talking about qi blasts or hokie things. Maybe a better way to explain is understanding nature, both externally and internally. Slowing down your mind, understanding the rhythms of things inside and out of you, and connecting to them. This is acheived through some type of meditative process. Now, you can say what does this have to do with martial arts? At this point, the yin and yang benefits are reveiled in the intangibles, as they say in sports. Slowing down your mind slows down the situation and allows you to react more appropriately. Understanding the nature of the fighter you are matched with allows a certain ability to predict and/or direct a fight. Having control over many innate abilities all human's posess but seldom use like tapping into your instinct give you an unexpected vigor. These things are all acheived through specific training, and lots of time dedicated to it. All of this is much more taxing than physical training. The body was meant to work and likes to do so. The mind is lazy, and takes a lot more effort to train.

The third step is shen, and honestly I don't have much novice information to discuss it, and don't want to give a disservice to it.

Anyway, self mastery implies not just physical development, but mental, instinctual, creative, emotional, and corporal development and control as well. Competition implies a specific desire or motivation that has a dead end. I hope to get your input on this, as that is why I'm giving mine. Thank you. Gotta run.
Take care

Felipe Bido

01-27-2003, 04:07 PM

I'll just quote my sifu on this:

"Well, I wanted to learn martial arts to fight and defend myself...if I would've wanted to be enlightened, I would go into hiding on a monastery"

I am not too much into competition, but I have something very clear: If you are practicing a martial art, and you don't want to test it at least a little, please, leave it and practice some yoga or become a pacifist monk.

Laughing Cow

01-27-2003, 04:16 PM

LPY.

Great post.

Cheers.

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 04:23 PM

LPY: great post!
Felipe: you too :p but then it becomes a grey area when dealing with such things as Shaolin as its also a Chan tradition.

dawood

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 04:28 PM

"Competition implies a specific desire or motivation that has a dead end."

A guy talking about Qi and 5 elements should know that few things come to a dead end. For men like lkfmdc's sifu (or mine) there are transitions in fighting, strategy, health, coaching, wisdom that run parallel with age. Maybe awards or medals stop (even they transition to the young students) but nothing else does. They just change.

Lao_Peng_You

01-27-2003, 04:38 PM

"Maybe awards or medals stop (even they transition to the young students) but nothing else does. They just change."

Great way to put it. Thanks.

Felipe Bido

01-27-2003, 04:41 PM

Hey ST00 :)

Whos' your sifu?

(And trying not to hijack this thread :p ) How's life, man?

David Jamieson

01-27-2003, 05:14 PM

:)

My original post was not intended to provoke anything but thought about the subject. Nor was it directed at those of you who are active in testing your skills.

I see competitive martial arts as one of the few venues where you actually can test your skill and find your gaps.

However, I don't personally agree with lineage chasers, school hoppers and armchair ufc types.

Why?

-lineage chasers get all wrapped up in a big story of who's who and many think that they have skill by association. This is not true. A good lineage never translates as personal Kungfu.

-school hoppers get a "little of this, a little of that" and never actualize any true understanding of what they are actually looking for in the first place because of their own impatience.

-armchair ufc types are just blowhard pains in the a-s-s

Kung fu is a transformative process. You go from a to b to c and on and when you are at a later point you have grown differently in mind, attitude, outlook and physicality then where you started at point a.

I have competed, I have fought "for real" (lol) as was stated.

Ap- I am not an authority on kung fu by the longest stretch of the mind. I am a neophyte in regards to what Kungfu is and it is a subject that has been an avid point of study for me for most of my life and I have little understanding as to the why of that. It just is.

My original post was not to diss competition, it was to question the obsession with it that many posters here have. I practice Kungfu, or more precisely I practice martial arts in the attempt to gain kungfu.

Do any of you notice that there are quite a few posters here who will not refuse the point that cage matches and the ufc are the only true method of testing your kungfu. I think that is a load of Carp, and I say carp because i don't want to format my text :D

I truly realize that there are many in the martial arts who figure that because they got a couple of point slaps in sparring down at the dojo kwoon last night they are the bees knees.

I would like to understand why more Kungfu schools do not encourage cross school association full blast tests of skill. This is something I have yet to see in the martial arts. this is what bugs me. The fact that there are no longer the competitions of old that once were and in their place we have televised matches that are not suited to the skill levels of the average ma-ist who needs that experience in order to fully gain understanding.

anyway. more later...
cheers

Golden Arms

01-27-2003, 05:36 PM

"Why would you want to sweat it out for that long just to have the hope that it MIGHT work? If someone tells me that it takes years before what they're teaching is applicable, I'm walking out the door. "

Why not? Being a Sharpshooter doesnt mean some joe with a gun couldnt get lucky and take you out with his friends .22. I think san shou is cool, and I have fought in my share of san shou and lei tai matches, so no disrespect was intended. What I do see them as is a valuable teaching tool, and a lot of fun. That said, I dont think they are more refined than the techniques in many kung fu systems. But again the point is..IF you can use them...I think a good way to illustrate it is to see how much MMA has evolved over just the amount of time that UFC has been around. Now imagine if we fast forward through 100 years of UFC's and things will be a lot more complex I believe. On the same note, the average joe will not have a prayer of using a lot of the advanced skills and strategies present in MMA after it has evolved that far unless they train full time for long amounts of time.

This is sort of how I believe kung fu evolved, only then people stopped fighting and started arguing over whos teacher is better, etc. I dont know that kung fu is superior to other arts, but I do think that if you train it hard and get strong and the right mindset, you can do some nasty nasty things with it..

Oh, and ST,
Would you fight 50+ bulls barehanded? Could you take 270+ people with no losses and the injuries associated with it? You have to give Oyama respect for putting his body on the line...And you conveniently glossed over the fact that he killed one dude with several witnesses around with one hit to the head, and took out judo, and wrestler types as well, some with one hit.

rogue

01-27-2003, 05:36 PM

Can you honestly say that if anyone worth his salt in chinese martial arts went and trained the way Oyama did, they wouldnt be able to wreak major havoc on 95% of the population? There are people who do, they do san shou and sanda.
From what I see the CMA has a great venue in sanda. It's got two of the three things MMA look for, good striking and takedowns. I think if all styles of CMA started competing in there the MMA would beat a path to their doors. ST00 would be rich!

Don't believe all the Oyama stories that you hear.

What do you mean refined? Take a look at the WC forum(sorry Watchman) for example and look what refinement does to an art that's supposed to be based on efficiency.

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 05:53 PM

My original post was not intended to provoke anything but thought about the subject. Nor was it directed at those of you who are active in testing your skills.

Bull$hit
Grow a pair. Either walk the talk or go home.

Felipe: My sifu is Mike Barry. If you know Sanshou in the U.S., you know him or have seen him. Say Hi, He's a great guy to talk too. White hair, mustache, beard - hard to miss.

My family and I are doing very well. Thank you for asking. My wife is no longer on chemo, and is excercising and gaining back health and spirit each day. *cross fingers* it's been a battle an just when we think we're done, *bam* but she's fiesty and we always get thru it.

dezhen2001

01-27-2003, 06:12 PM

ST00: hope everything gets better :)

dawood

David Jamieson

01-27-2003, 06:27 PM

st00-

grow a pair?

Forums are all about talk, talk is meant to provoke thought.
I walk everday.

cheers

Watchman

01-27-2003, 06:58 PM

What do you mean refined? Take a look at the WC forum(sorry Watchman) for example and look what refinement does to an art that's supposed to be based on efficiency.

LOL, no need to apologize to me, Rogue. I agree that for an art that touts itself as concept based and hyper-efficient, it's practitioners tend to over-intellectualize things quite a bit.

Felipe Bido

01-27-2003, 07:08 PM

ST00: I'm glad to hear your wife is better. My best wishes to you and yours :)

ShaolinTiger00

01-27-2003, 07:37 PM

Thank you very much my Caribbean 'compay. Its pretty cool that you even remembered. Life is a movie. one day a tragedy, on day a comedy.

How are you?

Golden Arms- relax guy. I don't know much about Omaya, but there wa a reason he was so respected.

SevenStar

01-27-2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by rogue
Oh great, someone has irked red5angel. When he uses the phrase "my panties are in a wad" everybody better duck and cover!:eek:

red5 wears panties? :eek:

SevenStar

01-27-2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
www.mma.tv

Ask on the BJJ forum.

Nope. Everything I've done, I've paid for. If I can put together some big wins though, I'll start looking for a sponsorship.

yeah, it can get expensive. Speaking of which, you goin to the Arnold's?

Felipe Bido

01-27-2003, 07:51 PM

ST00 I'm great, thanks :)

Keep on being brave as you've been all this time. Life is worth every second ;)

Now let's get back to topic, before these guys send Royce to choke me out

SevenStar

01-27-2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Lao_Peng_You

I do, however, believe that competition can only take you so far, even as a martial artist. That's why many who rely only on competition to drive them will ultimately achieve only so much, and will eventually quit, or become strictly teachers to maintain a connection to a certain "feeling".

what are you basing that on?

Merryprankster

01-28-2003, 03:31 AM

I guess I just don't get it. I don't understand how the transition from newbie to competitor to teacher is "only taking you so far."

That sounds like a natural progression to me. And the people who live to compete pass that love of competition and self-improvement on to their students. Because believe me, you have to conquer yourself before you can conquer anybody else.

"The will to win is the will to prepare."

red5angel

01-28-2003, 08:20 AM

7*- I explained the panties thing, I was young, I was under the influence, and she said she would pay me 50$......

Kung Lek - "I would like to understand why more Kungfu schools do not encourage cross school association full blast tests of skill."

I think it's fear. I would say that 90% of those teaching out there no they don't really have what it takes to teach, but they want the glory and they want to be called sifu more then anything else. So they go to teaching. Now what happens if you go to a freindly sparring match with anothr school, and that other schools students wipe the floor with your students? Guess where most of your students are going to be going shortly after?

Someone brought up wingchun and that is a great example of what happens when lots of people who have no idea what they are doing pretened to. I have met roughly 4-5 people who do wingchun, who I thought I couldn't take, and all of them went to the same school. They trained hard and they played hard. no excuses for failure, just sought to improve themsleves, and while most WC people will tell you that is what they are doing as well, I have never seen it. 99% of wingchun out there is garbage. So what do they do, they fall back on lineage, and who realy got taught by Yip Man, and what they got taught, its fukking pathetic. Only one person I respect in the wingchun world and that is because he earned it he could have taken me out and made it look effortless.
But these guys are a prime example of what is wrong with TMA now a days, too many people who want to teach but don't know the material, or too many people who can talk the talk but can't walk the walk....

Aw fukk, I am getting irked again!!! Seriously this stuff really ****es me off. I am so disenchanted with the Kung Fu world right now, not because I don't believe the stuff works, but because I don't think most Kung Fu people can make it work. not enough dedication to time.
Wann know why I think MMA, BJJ, Muy Thai, etc.. do so well and seem to be gaining ground? It's an old argument but it holds true, walk into ten CMA, or TMA schools and see how they train. Watch to see if the students are worn out and can barely move at the end of class. now go to 10 of those MMA schools and see how those guys look after they are done with class. no need ot argue really, just go see for yourself.

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 08:42 AM

Did TCMA people of the past fight? YES

Were some deadly fighters? YES

How many? Probably not a lot, and when you look at much hyped stuff like the Wu vs Chan match that you've heard about forever and suddenly see how crappy it was, you have to wonder how much stories are inflated? Or how much they simply ignore basic ideas - "he was great at push hands", yeah and he was over 200 lbs compared to the average 140-something Chinese, etc etc

Also, Chinese seem to think in gradations, and there is lots of "courtesy" and "respect" going on. A guy from a famous teacher in Canada visited us, before he arrived, my teacher said he was really good. When he arrived, frankly, he sucked! We called my teacher on it, he put his finger to his lips and made a "shhhhh" sound, later at dinner he said you have to be polite.

I know a guy who I thought was pretty good, not great, from Canton. He talked a lot about how he sparred different coaches and teachers and always "won". I asked him if he had sparred my teacher (as they knew eachother). He said "no f-ing way, I am talking about playing, and your teacher never played, if you fought with him, it was serious" (which reminded me of a story about a guy who faced my teacher in the inter-military championships and DIED afterwards from internal injury - no BS)

Specificially regarding today, most students train a few times a week when the traditional way was everyday for long hours. Working your nuts off and being a tough SOB add to your fighting.

In China, it was often Darwinian, you had to fight to live and the guys who lived accumulated fighting experience and got better. The ones who didn't? We never hear about them. But here in the US you can be a "sifu" and never have fought in your life, this applies to CHINESE AS WELL BTW

In China, let's be honest, a lot of TCMA people were from rough areas and were rough customers. And that counts RE fighting. I'll still pick a kid from the streets over a kid who takes a martial art class 2x a week in a real fight.

And TCMA has not kept up pace with reality. They scoff at stuff like heavy bags, boxing gloves, weights, etc in favor of Chi blasts that blow up chickens at 30 feet...

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 09:09 AM

kung lek,

My original post was not intended to provoke anything but thought about the subject. Nor was it directed at those of you who are active in testing your skills.

actually, your original post was very dismissive, describing competitors as primarily fighting for money, dabbling in 'this and that', and failing to engage in a 'transformative process' (the specifics of which i asked you to describe).

I see competitive martial arts as one of the few venues where you actually can test your skill and find your gaps.

However, I don't personally agree with lineage chasers, school hoppers and armchair ufc types.

well, this is a safe bet. nobody agrees with lineage chasers, school hoppers, and armchair ufc types. you've just described the worst examples of martial arts studies. no point taking a stand on them. there's no controversy there.

-lineage chasers get all wrapped up in a big story of who's who and many think that they have skill by association. This is not true. A good lineage never translates as personal Kungfu.

precisely the same problem as armchair ufc types.

-school hoppers get a "little of this, a little of that" and never actualize any true understanding of what they are actually looking for in the first place because of their own impatience.

right. but in your original post, you described successful MMA fighters as doing 'a little of this and a little of that.' and winning. people don't win simply by dabbling. they win by earnestly studying and integrating.

-armchair ufc types are just blowhard pains in the a-s-s

see above.

Kung fu is a transformative process. You go from a to b to c and on and when you are at a later point you have grown differently in mind, attitude, outlook and physicality then where you started at point a.

okay. how, specifically, is that not illustrated in competitive martial arts? and don't say, "i knew this competitive guy, and he was an arsehead." we all know terrible examples of their fields. god only knows i could point at noncompetitive types that were hopeless.

Ap- I am not an authority on kung fu by the longest stretch of the mind. I am a neophyte in regards to what Kungfu is and it is a subject that has been an avid point of study for me for most of my life and I have little understanding as to the why of that. It just is.

and yet you're an authority on what competition is and is not capable of engendering in a person. interesting.

My original post was not to diss competition, it was to question the obsession with it that many posters here have. I practice Kungfu, or more precisely I practice martial arts in the attempt to gain kungfu.

and you've received answers. but i'm not the only one who thinks that your original post smacked of elitism. the whole thing constantly drove home the idea that kung fu was a transformative process that competitive martial arts somehow couldn't achieve. are you surprised that people took that as dissing?

i don't know, kung lek. i very carefully responded to your original post line by line. you didn't respond to most of it. so repeating myself seems kind of pointless.

stuart b.

red5angel

01-28-2003, 09:14 AM

I too would like to find out what this transformative process is. the only transformations I see are from bad fighters to good fighters, and in my personaly experience, those who have actual fought, have a better view of how their skills stack up in the long run.

ShaolinTiger00

01-28-2003, 09:18 AM

* runs out and buy a copy of "The Intellectual Smackdown" by Stuart B.*

I'm too passionate for such clear thought. *hulk smash!*

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 09:24 AM

Like the lines from the old "Kung Fu" TV series, much of what is posted here sounds good and really means nothing

"transformation"? I am neither a car that will become a robot nor lead which will become gold. HOwever, by training hard, sweating, bleeding and FIGHTING with my teacher, my classmates and now my students I became healthy, acquired discipline, made friends, and achieved inner peace. Having stepped on the Lei Tai and in a ring, I know what martial arts and fighting is about, I don't theorize on it. Funny how the non fighting, non-competitive types can always take such an elitist position about issues they know NOTHING about

The 5 element, Bagua thing was CUTE, but like a David Carradine quote, pretty meaningless. We shouldn't be competitive? We shouldn't strive for more? Funny too as China is one of the most competitive nations in the world...

Actually, to be brutally direct, it sounds like the cop out of someone who never achieved...

red5angel

01-28-2003, 09:24 AM

ST00 - Ap is too, he gets all this stuff from his co-workers and wife. Otherwise it just looks like a bunch of random typing liek this:

"adsfjklhf sadkjh fsal;jkdhf asdfh ;"

That's a direct quote from Ap to a question I posed a while back while he was alone.

red5angel

01-28-2003, 09:30 AM

I think LPY was being direct and honest here guys. To me it sounds like he is just expressing his desire to get something "more" out of his training and I don't really see a problem with that.
Ikmfdc - I think your comment is out of line. Unless you know him and know he has failed in some way then that accusation does nothing but insult. You talk a lot about your own sifu and how much of a natural born killer he is, and we have to take you at your word. Personally I have heard that enough and seen these people these things are said of, I still have yet to meet anyone who lives up to those claims.
Ultimately I think he was being open about how he sees his personal journey through the arts, and he sounds lucid enough that I can believe he knows competition, sparring and all of that are useful tools as any aspect of training, whether it be meditation, drills, sparring ,whatever.

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
* runs out and buy a copy of "The Intellectual Smackdown" by Stuart B.*

I'm too passionate for such clear thought. *hulk smash!*

LOL!

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
ST00 - Ap is too, he gets all this stuff from his co-workers and wife. Otherwise it just looks like a bunch of random typing liek this:

"adsfjklhf sadkjh fsal;jkdhf asdfh ;"

That's a direct quote from Ap to a question I posed a while back while he was alone.

did i say that?

...

it's true! all true!! [sob]

stuart b.

rogue

01-28-2003, 09:34 AM

Three Cheers for Kunk Lek. He at least got us talking about martial arts again.:p

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 09:36 AM

well, you've got a point there.

rogue

01-28-2003, 09:49 AM

Rogue to Ap
"Hmmm, so far nobody has used the I'm competing against myself ploy. I used to compete against myself until I found out myself always cheated."

Merryprankster:
"Because believe me, you have to conquer yourself before you can conquer anybody else."

I think we dodged that bullet but it sure came close and from an unexpected source.:D Pranksters self is probably alot more honest than mine anyway.

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 09:50 AM

Some of the references RE my teacher are in Chinese, but one that ANYONE can find

1. go to library

2. look up periodical literature from 1982

3. look up Daily News (NY edition)

4. look for story about old "kung fu master" who in his 60's sent three guys with knives to the hospitol when they attacked him on 42nd street (before it turned into Disney Land!)

Most people who know Chan Tai-San can tell you he was a well known fighter. The fact that our school continues to produce fighters is also a good clue

I'm not one for political correctness in case you haven't guessed. If it think something is BS I will say so. The "don't get competitive" thing sounds just to granola and deep breathing for me not to attack it. If you're offended, all I can say is I still live in a free country where I can speak my views and if you believe in Democracy you can never question my right to say them

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 09:55 AM

Pranksters self is probably alot more honest than mine anyway.

don't bank on it. merryprankster recently hired a private investigator to follow him around. he thinks he might be up to something.

stuart b.

red5angel

01-28-2003, 10:37 AM

Ikmfdc - all I am saying is anyone on this forum can be anyone and be doing anything. It's better to be giving each other the benefit of the doubt and atleast engage someone in conversation to find out the truth then to engage in a flame war.
LPY was going to pm me but I asked him to go ahead and discuss here on the forum, and your comment dismissed everything he said offhand, without any viable argument.
Sure your free to say anything you want but as the old saying goes "better to be accused of being stupid and be silent, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt."

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 10:46 AM

To borrow a quote "Alright then"

- "I'm referencing the 5 element, ba gua, and yin and yang theories in terms of self mastery for this. If you're not familiar, research it," -

No problem, I follow you so far

- "If you compete against someone for a goal, you have to have "fire". Fire burns out pretty fast. If you fail or succeed at your goal, you will quit this particular "competition" either way, as you will eventually burn out your desire for this acheivement." -

According to who precisely? Competitive athletes have been known to have very, very long careers and then remain within a sport as coach or offficial or both for the rest of their lives!

And of course, so what is your answer? Never to compete for a goal at all? Just sit back and contemplate your navel?

-" Even if you have a strong will, this drive will only last for so long." -

Again, human experience shows us otherwise.

- "Anyway, self mastery implies not just physical development, but mental, instinctual, creative, emotional, and corporal development and control as well."

In this you show me clearly you have not engaged in a competitive sport to any significant degree if you think that it is only physical.

- "Competition implies a specific desire or motivation that has a dead end."--

NONSENSE

Again, as I said, very much like a David Carradine quote, sounds good but lacks any substance.

It sounds a lot like a cop-out for not going out and trying to achieve a goal.

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 10:46 AM

red5angel,

well said. i haven't read sifu ross' comments. so this isn't a counter to him. but since i specifically asked that LPY post his thoughts on the subject, after he stated that he'd PM them instead, i feel responsible for opening him up to this.

so my apologies LPY.

stuart b.

red5angel

01-28-2003, 11:00 AM

Ikfmdc - thats what I am talking about. I would rather see a post like your last one where there is some constructive discussion going on then outright dismissal.
My issue wasn't that you didn't agree with him, there are some things I don't agree with, just the way you initially approached it. Thanks.

now, I have to agree with Ikfmdc on the fire thing. That to me is in the domain if individuality. I for one was never a competitive person until I started the martial arts, now the fire burns in me pretty strong and my only concer is being able to quench it before I become too old. I think competition can be healthy and should for any serious martial artist, be a part of their experience, whether it is the competition of in school sparring, or the competition at a real tournemant. Either way, I don't see a downside to it. unless you make it a bad thing.

""Anyway, self mastery implies not just physical development, but mental, instinctual, creative, emotional, and corporal development and control as well." "

I can agree with this, and at each stage you challenge yourself in some way personal to you. For some of us we choose to compete, because that competition is a big part of discovering self mastery. Alot of the fighters I have met have been calm cool and collected, and I believe that is because they have found their boiundaries and they are comfortable with themselves. Their first few matches it is almost guarenteed that they were a nervous wreck, just like anyone else!

Ap- thanks, I don't sound as eloquent as you might, it could be the panties are too tight however.

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 11:05 AM

Ap- thanks, I don't sound as eloquent as you might, it could be the panties are too tight however.

eloquence is highly overrated. always better to have a point. you always do.

stuart b.

Lao_Peng_You

01-28-2003, 11:21 AM

MP

"That sounds like a natural progression to me. And the people who live to compete pass that love of competition and self-improvement on to their students. Because believe me, you have to conquer yourself before you can conquer anybody else."

Good points, and again I was probably being vague. Teaching is a great way to get better yourself, as you are constantly observing and refining techniques. If it sounded like I was degrading this position, I wasn't. There seems to be a certain "prejudice" on these forums that suggests if a person is for "A", then he must be against "B". That's not my stance.

lkfmdc

I'm not sure what your beef is. I don't think I disagreed with anything you said. Competing is great. Reread my posts, and you'll find that I think competing is very important. As a MAist, you have to want to make yourself the best, and that means you have to compete, lose, win, strive, etc. to get there.

If you don't use those various philosophies that I mentioned to improve your strategy when fighting, that is up to you. I don't care. However, they are great tools and worth while to look into. In fact, I will give you my email address if you want to have further dialogue on it (as I mentioned b4, I am not an expert though). I love to compete and spar. I do it several nights a week and against any stylist I can. Heck, it would be fun for me to spar you. For me, there is more (though it is all tied in together), that's all. I'm not suggesting this is good for you or anyone, just my experience.

As far as the whole granola hippy BS, again I don't disagree that people with good intentions and little understanding and ability have had a bad influence on CMA. This bothers me as well. Also, people just have different directions with their martial art. As MP said, he has guys in his club that go to practice just to have "social hour", while he has a desire to reach the pinnacle of his competitive life, and maybe go into teaching. I don't care that he has guys in his class that don't work hard, and I won't criticize BJJ because it has some lazy practitioners. That's the great thing about what we do, you get out what you put into it.

One last thing, if what I was saying came off as being elitist, that was not my intention, and perhaps I'm not very eloquent. I don't think what I do is the absolute end all be all for everyone. It works for me. I don't think I quoted any "great masters" in order to make myself look smarter or better. Listening to your experiences, and others on the forum are interesting to me, even if yours is yang in nature ;0)
Take care

lkfmdc:
Right! I'm not suggesting your love of competition burns out, just that one thing or instance. Often, when a certain goal is acheived, we have to alter our goal in order to keep competing. Going into coaching is a great example. I think I was narrowing down my suggestion to one event or goal, not changing that goal once it has been acheived.

R5
Same thing. I may have made an assumption/error in semantics. If you change your goals within MA throughout your life, and compete on some level you can sustain within it.
P.S R5 now worries on furthering this discussion. It's how we learn. Invest in loss.

Braden

01-28-2003, 11:49 AM

Didn't read the whole thread, but from the first page it strikes me...

There's two groups of people both awfully concerned with what the other is doing. Who cares?

Tend to your own garden.

What else is there to say?

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 12:04 PM

well, not much. except that it would be an awfully quiet discussion forum if everyone tended their own garden. being able to productively share ideas is the trick, yeah?

Braden

01-28-2003, 12:07 PM

Yeah, I agree.

I just don't see: "People who compete are egotistical fools."

And: "People who don't compete are useless throw-backs."

As productive discussion.

If someone's said something useful since the first page, carry on... :p

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 12:09 PM

no, you're right. that's not productive. and there has been a bit of that. but there's also been far more. i think. i hope.

stuart b.

red5angel

01-28-2003, 12:23 PM

LPY-"There seems to be a certain "prejudice" on these forums that suggests if a person is for "A", then he must be against "B". That's not my stance."

There are alot of dichotomies on this board, and in the martial arts in general, internal/external, mixed/traditional, mine/yours, most of it is rediculous and most of the guys worth talking to on this board know that and don't tend to engage those conversations accept to point out the errors of someones ways. I engaged you because I had a gut feeling you weren't the type to take an us vs them attitude and I see I was correct.

Each of us is looking to get something out of the martial arts and I think the issue and conflict might be when those desires cross paths. For instance, if you are looking to attain spiritual clarity through MA, I can see that. They say understanding death is necessary to understanding life. If you are looking to pound someone into a bloody mess and hear the crowd scream your name, I can understand that too, we are human beings and we crave recognition.
My only issue is when someone misrepresents, for instance, my previous example of the kid looking for self defense who runs into the so-called spiritual guru. I am not saying the two can't be combind, but I don't see many people successfully doing it, and my only concern is that I believe as MAist we have a responsibility I don't see being taken often in the arts. One of admitting where our faults and weaknesses lie.
Who wants to admit they can be beat? Who wants to admit they don't know everything about fighting after putting in 15 years? But if you don't, your fooling yourself, and others.
The other thing I don't like to see is intolerance for others goals. For instance if I want to do it for the sport of it, there is nothing wrong with that. Take Qi for instance, I believe there is something to it, I just don't know how to explain it yet and I don't know if I believe what the Chinese believe it is. That doesn't make me a bad artist by any means, and neither does it make you one if Qi is your driving goal in the arts, just step up and represent.

Braden - Don't make me put you in a dress......

ShaolinTiger00

01-28-2003, 12:32 PM

Each of us is looking to get something out of the martial arts

The only thing you should "look" for in a martial arts class is the ability to fight!

Thru hard training, moral character is forged.

Anything else is a lie.

Lao_Peng_You

01-28-2003, 12:47 PM

St00
For fun:

What do you consider to be "hard training", or "moral character" for that matter.

how is "moral character forged" "thru hard training"?

If someone doesn't consider what you do "hard training" does this mean you have not "forged moral character"? In which case is what you have been doing a "lie"?

Mike Tyson trained hard to have the ability to fight, does he have moral character?

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 12:50 PM

go to a major san shou competition and see how san shou people act

compare it to the point sparring competition, where after a match they are arguing they should have won because "if it was real" blah blah

the forms crowd is even worse, talking about how their technique is too deadly to spar, but WOW those aerial cartwheels would kill ya I swear :P

red5angel

01-28-2003, 12:52 PM

ah here is the crux of the issue. Moral character through martial training?
How about if one were to say that each martial artist should be taught a higher level of responsibility because of the skills they are being taught?

I thnk any activity can test you and build character, but it doesn't have to, and the arts certainly don't have to, although if you make that your goal, it cahappen.

David Jamieson

01-28-2003, 12:56 PM

ap-

you have misinterpreted what I wrote.

I did not dismiss all competitive fighters as " a little of this a little of that", nor did i state that all of them were not engaging in the transformative process that is kungfu.

My statement in the original post was regarding those who idolize this particular venue to the point where they come to think that this venue and only this venue is a true measure of martial skill.

What I am stating now, is that ufc/nhb and the likes is not the only possible venue available to those but instead that it will take the greater community of martial artists to come up with a venue that will allow the average martial artist the opportunity to move beyond the so called "hippy factor" associated with martial arts.

please quote me in context to the entirety of what I am saying.

I personally think that the more the hippy factor kicks in, the less value there will be in studying martial arts altogether.

There is no difference between the hippy factor and the armchair ufc dude or the gracie groupies. Flakes. all of em. :D

So, I ain't getting on the beyotch train about these events, just in regards to those who sit and say they are better without actually taking any personal action in either.

cheers

ShaolinTiger00

01-28-2003, 12:56 PM

go to a major san shou competition and see how san shou people act

Quiet gentlemen.

compare it to the point sparring competition, where after a match they are arguing they should have won because "if it was real" blah blah

Immature punks.

the forms crowd is even worse, talking about how their technique is too deadly to spar, but WOW those aerial cartwheels would kill ya I swear :P

the most arrogant, self-inflated egos on the planet.

*note* Just the traditional forms guys. Not to be confused with the contemporary wushu guys, who know the truth about forms. (beautiful and asthetic "form" being the key word)

ShaolinTiger00

01-28-2003, 01:06 PM

how is "moral character forged" "thru hard training"?

akin to judo "mutual benefit and welfare. You and I shining together."

Respect respect for your fellow fighters. Respect for the coaches and trainers. Respect for yourself. Respect for the damage you can do and the safety that must be taken.

mutual benefit. - Allowing younger/newer fighters to kick your ass so that they can see how to attack "holes" in a defense or allowing yourself to be the uke-dummy when they need to practice throws and takedowns. They inturn will be there for you when you train and need partners.

A sense of inner pride and self worth. you belong to somehing that few common people have the guts or psyical ability to do. Hell most of the martial arts world can't even do it...

The abilty to supress fear/ anxiety and overcome in an stressful enviornment.

The joy of slamming a fellow man around and then later patting that same man on the back and cheering him on when its his turn. Comraderie.

Theses and many other things are the characteristics of a tight band of trained men, from sports teams to special forces. leave the mystic jargon to personal belief.

Merryprankster

01-28-2003, 01:13 PM

I might point out that Mike Tyson himself never "trained hard," to fight. He had somebody push him every step of the way. And when that somebody died, he was a rudderless boat.

He never conquered himself. But I don't mean that the way some might think. I mean that he never had that last little bit you need--gumption, or whatever you want to call it, that says "Ok, there's nobody here watching me, but I have train hard because I have to prepare to win."

That's what I meant by "conquering yourself." It's the will to prepare to win. Because prep is WAY harder than comp!

He was one of the "failures," of hard training I suppose. But, then again, Kung Fu wouldn't have helped him either. He's a bit beyond that, and likely always was.

ShaolinTiger00

01-28-2003, 01:17 PM

MP that instantly reminds me of the practice slogan "the more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in war."

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 01:18 PM

kung lek,

you have misinterpreted what I wrote.

entirely possible.

I did not dismiss all competitive fighters as " a little of this a little of that", nor did i state that all of them were not engaging in the transformative process that is kungfu.

this is what you said (directly quoted, hopefully within context):

it's got some naturals who do a little of this , a little of that and win. ok

that's a reference to the competitors. not the spectators. and, to my mind, it contains two inaccuracies. they may be naturals, but let's not underestimate the import of years of training. and then there's the phrase. 'little of this. little of that.' i'm sorry, kung lek. but i view this as a grossly inadequate analysis of what those guys do. and if you're commenting on that, you're obliged to more fully evaluate it.

what is it that you see in these events that translates as acquiring "kungfu"?

It's fighting. ok

it's competitive fighting for money. ok

it's got some excellent grapplers and stand up martial artists. ok

it's got some naturals who do a little of this , a little of that and win. ok

but ultimately, where does holistic transformative Kungfu training come into this picture?

okay, so you're discussing the events. then you proceed to make three bulleted points that discuss not the spectators, but the competitors. then you close it out by asking where the transformative training comes into the picture.

i asked you to describe the transformative process. you did. i saw nothing in your description particular to kungfu training. A goes through B and becomes C.

My statement in the original post was regarding those who idolize this particular venue to the point where they come to think that this venue and only this venue is a true measure of martial skill.

and i don't disagree with this point. none of the questions i've put to you debated that point. so clearly, i'm reacting to something else.

What I am stating now, is that ufc/nhb and the likes is not the only possible venue available to those but instead that it will take the greater community of martial artists to come up with a venue that will allow the average martial artist the opportunity to move beyond the so called "hippy factor" associated with martial arts.

okay. that's an interesting start. where do we go from here?

please quote me in context to the entirety of what I am saying.

i cut and pasted your comments verbatim. short of copying your entire post over and over again, i don't really see how i could've done better. i responded to each paragraph individually for ease of comprehension. and since your entire post appears, interspersed with my comments, i don't really see how context is compromised.

I personally think that the more the hippy factor kicks in, the less value there will be in studying martial arts altogether.

i doubt anyone on this thread would debate that.

There is no difference between the hippy factor and the armchair ufc dude or the gracie groupies. Flakes. all of em.

i believe i said precisely the same thing in my first post.

So, I ain't getting on the beyotch train about these events, just in regards to those who sit and say they are better without actually taking any personal action in either.

and that's fine. i agree. but i took you to task for other comments, directly quoted and individually addressed throughout this thread.

but for the sake of clarity, here's my big question again: "what do you regard as the transformative process? and how is it more applicable to kung fu than to competitive martial arts?"

stuart b.

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 01:19 PM

Actually, if you know the history of Mike Tyson, he grew up a hoodlum and ended up in a juevenile detention facility, he was on a road to no where

A police officer offered to train him in some boxing and when he was actually training hard, he became "a nice kid". He was then adopted by legendary Cus D'Amato. Under D'Amato, Tyson was not allowed to slack and trained very hard, he never got in trouble during this period.

After D'Amato died and Tyson got under King's wing, they "yes man"ed him to death, didn't make him train, he got lazy and he subsequently got into all the trouble he has been in

Merryprankster

01-28-2003, 01:21 PM

Yeah, but I've always had a will, not talent problem. And it's always been a will to prepare problem. So I tend to think of it the other way.

But it's more or less the same. It's just that people get caught up in "Conquering yourself," being some kind of "at peace with your oneness and light in the universe, oops, I lost my vibe please pass the bowl," type thing, when it's really just doing something you have to do to do what you want to do.

Rhadi said it best: Responsibility is doing what needs to be done when it needs doing.

If you're going to take responsibility for your training... well...

red5angel

01-28-2003, 01:21 PM

MP good points and a good example. Tyson studied the martial arts, reached the "top" but turned out to be an a$$ anyway.

Merryprankster

01-28-2003, 01:23 PM

lkfmdc,

I think we're agreeing in substance--If he'd had a bit more responsibility, he might have turned out better.

And just as you pointed out--training hard doesn't leave time to get into trouble :p

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 01:34 PM

yeah, we're agreeing :)

it has been proved time and time again, hard training saves lives

keep a kid busy in a sport and he won't find other crap to get into

fa_jing

01-28-2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by lkfmdc
{...}

After D'Amato died and Tyson got under King's wing, they "yes man"ed him to death, didn't make him train, he got lazy and he subsequently got into all the trouble he has been in

Not exactly. His first trainer put a gun to his head when Tyson was about 17-18, as he had forceably molested said trainer's 11-year old daughter.

lkfmdc

01-28-2003, 01:59 PM

we couold argue for ages, but actually the only person who ever said he did that was said trainer, who had been fired and was broke when he suddenly remembered the story....

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 02:17 PM

actually, kung lek, i've changed my mind. i can't make you address the questions i've asked. and each time i try, it gets more ridiculous. so don't worry about it.

stuart b.

ShaolinTiger00

01-28-2003, 02:19 PM

Rhadi said it best: Responsibility is doing what needs to be done when it needs doing.

That is why Rhadi Ferguson is training for the Olympics.

David Jamieson

01-28-2003, 02:57 PM

actually ap, short of holding a gun to my head, nobody can make me do anything :)

how is kungfu a transformative process moreso than competitive fighting?

well, competitive fighting involves several things. Training, knowing the opponent, knowing the rules, acquired skill and the application of that skill within the above mentioned rules of the competitive venue. Training in this can be from most any martial art I guess, but mostly gets the label of mixed martial arts. mixed martial arts by my definition is a term that can get a bit grey. some say it is a stand up art and a ground art blended. however, there are examples of this that occur in singular styles.

ok moving along to the key of how is kungfu transformative in comparison to competitive fighting.

to have kungfu is to have temperance, courtesy, and at it's peak and unconditional positive regard for your fellow beings. To practice Kungfu to me does not mean just practicing chinese martial arts. the martial arts are only one part of "kungfu". But I understand how my definition and yours may differ. I've always been taught that Kungfu is holistic and inclusive of the whole being.

To give a homeless person shelter and a meal is to display kungfu.
To stop an altercation between combatants before a punch is thrown is to show kungfu.
To bring happiness where there was sorrow is kungfu.
To control an adversary without bringing them harm is to display kungfu.

In the modern venue of the fighting arts, it is not necessarily Kungfu that is shown. It is competitive fighting. And some of them are naturals with a little of this and a little of that. They may or may not have Kungfu even if they have never lost a match.

to me, this is the watering down of the arts.It strips away many of the worthwhile and valuable traits of wht it is to have kungfu by labeling only the martial arts as kungfu.

semantics I guess, but I'm pretty sure that my definition of Kungfu as stated here is closer to the true meaning of it than those who would describe it as just chinese martial arts.

to seek kungfu is to act in such a way that you would not be drawn to fighting or competition. To test your hands as part of attaining kungfu is different in this respect. If you find yourself in an endless cycle of fighting, then what is it your are now testing? you already know you can enter a ring. You already know you could win against some things and lose against others. You probably would be aware that this will pass, you will age and the more scars you bear, the more likely you will not be comfortable in your autumn years.

If you test your hands to ensure your practice is correct then that is part of the path. Many get stuck in a rut on the path and that rut is competition.

There's a time for everything. No one is best. To turn a test into a spectacle detracts from what the underlying meaning of the arts is. To never test your hands is a failure as well, or to inadequately test your hands is a failure as well.

To view competition as the only true measure of personal skill is myopic. It is an exercise that serves a purpose. take it for what it is.

Does this answer your question ap?

cheers

apoweyn

01-28-2003, 03:46 PM

kung lek,

Does this answer your question ap?

yes. yes it does, thank god. and to think, it only took two days and four posts. :)

actually ap, short of holding a gun to my head, nobody can make me do anything :)

precisely my point. and the reason that this conversation was becoming largely pointless. before this post, that is. this is what i was looking for.

how is kungfu a transformative process moreso than competitive fighting?

well, competitive fighting involves several things. Training, knowing the opponent, knowing the rules, acquired skill and the application of that skill within the above mentioned rules of the competitive venue. Training in this can be from most any martial art I guess, but mostly gets the label of mixed martial arts. mixed martial arts by my definition is a term that can get a bit grey. some say it is a stand up art and a ground art blended. however, there are examples of this that occur in singular styles.

in my opinion, it also involves knowing yourself. knowing and overcoming limitations, dealing with the inevitability of loss and defeat, etc. questions that many modern martial artists can actually get away with never addressing.

ok moving along to the key of how is kungfu transformative in comparison to competitive fighting.

to have kungfu is to have temperance, courtesy, and at it's peak and unconditional positive regard for your fellow beings. To practice Kungfu to me does not mean just practicing chinese martial arts. the martial arts are only one part of "kungfu". But I understand how my definition and yours may differ. I've always been taught that Kungfu is holistic and inclusive of the whole being.

To give a homeless person shelter and a meal is to display kungfu.
To stop an altercation between combatants before a punch is thrown is to show kungfu.
To bring happiness where there was sorrow is kungfu.
To control an adversary without bringing them harm is to display kungfu.

yeah, i guess our terminology does differ a bit. to me, these are attributes of a good person. and they may or may not be encouraged within a kwoon. i'm sure that plenty of schools don't touch on this sort of morality. many people would hold that they shouldn't. but we're talking about your definition right now. and mine.

none of the things you listed are intimately linked with the practice of martial arts though. how are you taught, specifically to control an adversary without bringing them harm? when you train, you practice strikes, locks, weaponry, etc. yes? what training, specific to kung fu and not found in competitive arts, covers showing kindness to homeless people?

the things you describe are the work of people. not styles. look at the shamrocks. poster children for MMA. adopted by bob shamrock, who essentially gave homeless children shelter and food. surely those values are passed down to his adoptive sons. not as part of a program of kung fu. but because bob shamrock is a good man.

to my mind, that illustration of good kung fu isn't part of the 'program.' it's the work of rare individuals. and it's a transformative experience open to everyone and anyone, completely independent of martial study.

what's more, i believe that if you were to review the teachings of every kung fu teacher (or even martial arts teacher) in the world, very little of the grand total would focus on morality of the sort you describe.

please understand that i'm not suggesting that these things have no place in martial arts. (i know a lot of other people here do believe that though.) what i'm saying is that the two aren't inherently linked. a kickboxing coach is just as likely to provide his charges with life lessons as is a traditional sifu.

In the modern venue of the fighting arts, it is not necessarily Kungfu that is shown. It is competitive fighting. And some of them are naturals with a little of this and a little of that. They may or may not have Kungfu even if they have never lost a match.

but in the modern kwoon, it's not necessarily your above definition of kung fu that's shown either. by your definition, nelson mandela has far better kung fu than any martial arts teacher i've ever known.

to me, this is the watering down of the arts.It strips away many of the worthwhile and valuable traits of wht it is to have kungfu by labeling only the martial arts as kungfu.

semantics I guess, but I'm pretty sure that my definition of Kungfu as stated here is closer to the true meaning of it than those who would describe it as just chinese martial arts.

i hear ya. and unlike many people here (several of whom i consider friends), i do believe that there's room in the martial arts for the teaching of values. not force feeding. but the illustration of idealism.

however, i continue to see nothing inherent in kung fu rather than competitive martial arts that makes this possible. if a good person struggles, overcomes, achieves, deals with success, deals with loss, etc., to my mind, that's indicative of the same sort of transformative process. many of those factors are at their most intense when the adversity is highest. and that's one of the most valuable things that competition lends. highly motivated, trained, and concentrated adversity.

to seek kungfu is to act in such a way that you would not be drawn to fighting or competition. To test your hands as part of attaining kungfu is different in this respect. If you find yourself in an endless cycle of fighting, then what is it your are now testing? you already know you can enter a ring. You already know you could win against some things and lose against others. You probably would be aware that this will pass, you will age and the more scars you bear, the more likely you will not be comfortable in your autumn years.

i don't believe this. to test your hands as part of attaining kung fu and then stop is to rest on past laurels. you haven't answered any sort of ultimate question about yourself. won some, lost some. been there, done that. if there's not that endless cycle of struggle, then what are you doing? if you find yourself in an endless cycle of fighting, then you're now testing precisely what you were testing the first time you did it. your continuing ability to overcome. that test is completely rewritten every time you take it.

If you test your hands to ensure your practice is correct then that is part of the path. Many get stuck in a rut on the path and that rut is competition.

i think that rut is the lack of competition. people can sleepwalk through sparring sessions. there's less at stake. i'm not talking about money or trophies. i'm talking about motivation. a person who's sole reason for being in that place at that time is to defeat you. that's a type of intensity that most people aren't going to find crossing hands with classmates.

There's a time for everything. No one is best. To turn a test into a spectacle detracts from what the underlying meaning of the arts is. To never test your hands is a failure as well, or to inadequately test your hands is a failure as well.

this i agree with. the spectacle is kinda sad. but many competitors would agree with that too. i don't believe that most competitors do what they do for the spectators. just like there's no money in it, there's not really that much glory in it. not for most competitors. only the select few. more glory in being hailed by a school as a 'senior' or 'teacher' or 'master.'

i don't like pure spectatorship myself. i think that martial arts are largely a study of consequences. a spectator can never understand the consequences, because they don't go through them. the competitor, however, is fully aware of the consequences of his actions, because he's out there. committing to the action and solely responsible for handling the results. that's a high degree of accountability.

To view competition as the only true measure of personal skill is myopic. It is an exercise that serves a purpose. take it for what it is.

personally, i don't view competition as the only true measure of anything. so i'm not going to argue this with you. i'm only arguing that it's not somehow morally, technically, or spiritually devoid in the face of kung fu. i think that mindset is dangerous and uncalled for.

Does this answer your question ap?

yes, it does. thanks for that.

stuart b.

No_Know

01-28-2003, 03:48 PM

Slow downed mind. This seems to inhibit perception. Similar to transmission speed of a digital camera or the such. The action is interrupted. the object seems to appear at different places and continue moving until it reappears somewhere else. No smoothe transmission. The faster the transmission rate--it seems to take sevearl frames of live action then reset itself to take the same number of frames of live action. It transmits as it processes what it receives. With pauses/interruptions at reset. The more frames (better understanding), the higher the transmission speed (comprehension) and processing speeds, the better perception.

It seems to my comprehension of the gist of this part of your mention, as though a faster/sped-up "mind" helps better.

In the talkies and the such, the superfast character can move around bullets and punches because of the greater perception rate indicating that a Faster processing Brain "...slows down the situation and allows you to react more appropriately."

David Jamieson

01-28-2003, 05:17 PM

ap-

the qualities of compassion actually are taught in buddhist styles of Kungfu.
The martiality is a way of understanding that which we face.

I absolutely agree that many kwoons have entirely lost site of this aspect of training in the arts. Any school that bears the name Shaolin, should probably have these values included in the curriculum and the keys to understanding these values distributed with the training. Benevolence and Charity tempers the wild spirit so to speak. Shaolin was first and foremost a buddhist monastery. The martial arts were not seperated from the philosophical teachings except in the last 75 years or so. Some teachers still include the ideas that drive the impetus to learn the martial arts without bringing them to bear on weaker folks. On the other hand, some people dress themselves up outwardly with the trappings, but in reality are a shell when it comes to practicing it wholly.

If one does not practice charity and common respect then one is not practicing the whole package of what buddhist martial arts are.

This doesn't completely devalue the martial arts as a stand alone mechanism however, because it is a useful part of the overall concept. You can still get use from a wheel, even if you don't have a car. :)

The spectacle of it all is probably the core of my adversity towards the competitive venues of today. The ill will harboured amongst schools towards each other and the dismissal of others arts vis a vis style bashing and chest puffing really irks me.

I've even participated in this kind of behaviour in my time. THinking that one style is better or that one school is lesser. It simply isn't true. It all has value. It has more value when it is taken on fully and with depth that goes beyond the martiality.

You can control a violent situation without bringing harm and there are numerous examples within numerous martial arts styles that clearly show these techniques. What is inside you is what will determine how much you understand how to appropriately deliver force.

I don't think that it can't be taught to a student how to use a whole system to be a good person. I think that when all the pieces are together, that is the result. Unless there is something missing from a school or from the teacher of a school.

Best, to teach by example I would guess, as opposed to the good ol "do what I say not what I do" approach.

I don't think either that good people are rare. I think they are in abundance but I think that it is not as interesting as watching two combatants smack the hell out of each other.

testing of the hands can be done and one can move along without growing stale. Imaging having to write your sats over and over again to prove you are still smart enough to pass.

Progression would have you move along. If you don't think injury is carried into old age, talk to me in 25 years. :D

That broken bone you got when you were 20? You can sure bet that even with good medicinal treatment that when you are 60 it will rear it's head and bug you again. That's just being human. The less injury you suffer in your early years the better.
To make a hobby of risking injury is folly in short. To test yourself at the appropriate time is another story.

To return again and again to the competitive arena? I'm not certain that the law of diminishing returns will not kick in soon with many.

It is dangerous to hold up competitive fighting as a good thing, especially out of the context of learning and into the context of just for the sake of it or the spirit of it.

cheers

No_Know

01-28-2003, 05:25 PM

"if you find yourself in an endless cycle of fighting, then you're now testing precisely what you were testing the first time you did it. your continuing ability to overcome. that test is completely rewritten every time you take it."

Some might think that not fighting, is an ability of overcomming.

Some have to fight daily, though they would rather not.

As to the political personality having good Kung-Fu.~ That Could be correct. As Kung-Fu gets to be about Every type of fight--fisticuffs, footicufff, mental anguish, personal demons, family relations...

There is a sense of intricacies and presence of Must in the technical-ish of Kung-Fu. And the practioner the System principles, the instructor's experience and training goes into each learning in Kung-Fu.~ This is not necessarily universally as present in other fighting related thingies as it is in Kung-Fu.

Personally-ish, it seems likely that nearly every thing that anyone does is a kung-fu (of sorts perhaps).

One is the concept. One is the technical, method-ie.

But Keep -up the divisions so as not to soil the pretty pretty kung-fu. :~>

Perhaps some-such.

We come from differing environments, some similar some the same. We understand Our environments perhaps. Yet applying Our understandings to differenT environments might be, won't-work-out-the-same.

Comprehending that we might No_Know, might be a start to understanding.

fa_jing

01-28-2003, 05:33 PM

I think that competitive fighting brings a development that is unattainable by any other means.

It is dangerous, though...we shouldn't beat around the bush on that. Much like Hockey, Football, Rugby. Sports that not just anybody can play, in any degree of health. Sports where people sometimes fall casualty to injury.

If I were indestructible, or if every injury would heal itself, then MA would be the best kind of sport to me, and the most fulfilling. Imagine regularly performing your forms with a live target. :)

The thrill of competition is awesome.

apoweyn

01-30-2003, 01:31 PM

kung lek,

i guess part of the problem i'm having here is that you describe kung fu as something not synonymous with martial arts. it's great skill. and a cook can have it. a gardner can have it. and a competitive fighter cannot, according to your original post. it's a transformative process that's somehow not available through competitive training. yet available to people not training in martial arts at all.

so i asked you to clarify the transformative process. and you tell me that buddhist morality is actually part of the teaching of traditional shaolin. and that's fine. i'm actually cool with that. i think there's room for idealism in martial arts instruction. if it's done right.

but there's no buddhist morality explicitly taught in gardening or cooking. so how does the transformative process happen?

by my understanding of asian philosophy (which is, i'll admit, pretty limited), the transformative process in action comes from taking action without being attached to its outcome. to dig a hole in the garden without regard for whether the plant will prosper there is to 'dig fully in the moment.' and that ability to live in the moment and appreciate life as it happens is part of that process.

to my mind, that makes the process available to pretty much anyone. right? painters, writers, landscapers, editors, wrestlers, and kung fu guys. the trick is in your approach and mindset. not in the specific activity.

certainly, when a competitor does his thing, he could be concentrating on the outcome. (and i'm not convinced that's a problem, but for the sake of this discussion, i'll try to stick to buddhist doctrine as i understand it.) by doing so, he's still attached to the consequences and therefore not really 'free.' but the same is just as easily true of any one of us. concentrating on the next belt, on being earning the title 'sifu', or even on doing right by your school's honour is still a reflection of pride (i.e., connection to the action and reaction).

i suppose you could argue that competitors are somehow less moral, by the shaolin standard. but then, that kinda undermines any discussion of challenge matches in shaolin's past.

[quote]The spectacle of it all is probably the core of my adversity towards the competitive venues of today. The ill will harboured amongst schools towards each other and the dismissal of others arts vis a vis style bashing and chest puffing really irks me.

it irks me too, mate. but to my mind, that's a problem with the politics surrounding the activity. not the activity itself.

I've even participated in this kind of behaviour in my time. THinking that one style is better or that one school is lesser. It simply isn't true. It all has value. It has more value when it is taken on fully and with depth that goes beyond the martiality.

and personally, i don't like to think of my practice as purely martial either. but i also don't think that the 'deeper' lessons i've learned need to be labeled 'shaolin' or 'traditional' or whatever to have worth. if a boxing coach says to one of his younger fighters, "ya did good kid", it doesn't matter that the kid just got mauled in a match. the coach has reinforced in the kid a behavior: struggle against adversity and never quit. is that lesson any less profound because of the source? or because of the experience that drove the point home?

You can control a violent situation without bringing harm and there are numerous examples within numerous martial arts styles that clearly show these techniques. What is inside you is what will determine how much you understand how to appropriately deliver force.

the only problem that people have with that, i think, is the self evidence factor. yes, aikido (just an example) has numerous controls to take someone out without hurting them. but there's not enough self evidence in it for a lot of people. it's largely theoretical to many. so they opt for something where they can reliably reproduce results. they can kick the heavy bag, kick the opponent, and be relatively well assured of the result.

now, when it comes time to stop someone without bringing harm to them, perhaps the kickboxer will do more harm than the aikidoka. but he'll know that he can deliver. now, there's nothing inherent in kickboxing that forces the student to kick the opponent in the teeth. a good round kick in the thigh may well end the altercation with minimal harm done. that's up to the judgment of the individual fighter, which is shaped by the individual trainer. just as in traditional arts.

I don't think that it can't be taught to a student how to use a whole system to be a good person. I think that when all the pieces are together, that is the result. Unless there is something missing from a school or from the teacher of a school.

Best, to teach by example I would guess, as opposed to the good ol "do what I say not what I do" approach.

i don't think that learning to be a good person is the result of having moral lessons explicit in your 'style.' it's the result of committing actions, experiencing consequences, and learning from them. that's a process that's available to everyone.

I don't think either that good people are rare. I think they are in abundance but I think that it is not as interesting as watching two combatants smack the hell out of each other.

again, i agree with you about the spectatorship. i have very mixed feelings about it. fans don't understand the consequences. but that's a problem with the fans. not the individuals participating.

testing of the hands can be done and one can move along without growing stale. Imaging having to write your sats over and over again to prove you are still smart enough to pass.

SATs are designed to measure your abilities at a specific time in your life. sparring is not the same thing. your ability to defeat one person on one given day (never mind a period in your life) is not an indicator of your ability to take the next guy. so you spar the next guy too.

Progression would have you move along. If you don't think injury is carried into old age, talk to me in 25 years. :D

That broken bone you got when you were 20? You can sure bet that even with good medicinal treatment that when you are 60 it will rear it's head and bug you again. That's just being human. The less injury you suffer in your early years the better.
To make a hobby of risking injury is folly in short. To test yourself at the appropriate time is another story.

well yeah. health reasons, age, etc. are perfectly valid reasons to stop sparring. 'been there, done that' is not.

To return again and again to the competitive arena? I'm not certain that the law of diminishing returns will not kick in soon with many.

It is dangerous to hold up competitive fighting as a good thing, especially out of the context of learning and into the context of just for the sake of it or the spirit of it.

i think that classifying things along such clearly defined lines is a dangerous thing. wrongly motivated people exist in all arenas. as do properly motivated people. properly motivated competitors, to my mind, are constantly doing it 'in the context of learning.' you're always learning. and competition, in the opinion of many, offers the most intensive coursework available.

stuart b.