BSL Lyrics: Movements and names

[freedom76]

I was wondering about some movements and there names. I've found the BSL Lyrics threads to be very helpful and interesting. However, I do have a question regarding a part of the Dragon Movement Straight Sword: Movements #13, 17, 27, 36, & 55 all have the same name ("Yeh Cha-the nocturnal ghost- searches the sea"), but not all the movements are the same, are they? I never had the names before, but from puzzling things out, it seems to me that these movements are different. A couple seem to be the same like 27 and 55 (Both low reverse bow on the left side), but others are different. When I've had names for movements before, as in tai chi, all movements with the same name are done the same way? Am I confused on these movements or are there differences, or is it something else entirely?
An example where all movements with the same name seem to be the same is "Black Dragon Goes Out to Sea". That all seems to be the same movement, bow stance with gim jie at left eyebrow, sword thrust at shoulder level. Perhaps I'm mistaken here too. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

[GeneChing]

The lyrics are poetic so, just like Dante, things must be adjusted to fit the meter. The same name does not always mean the same move and in the same fashion, the same move can have several different names. This is particularly evident in the BSL lyrics. Other systems might have stronger standards, but not necessarily so.

[NorthernShaolin]

freedom76,

Gene is right in what he states. However you may have notice that the other NSL sets do indeed follow the lyrics very close when comparied to the Dragon Shape Sword.

I, too, notice what you mention and I was confused too. How can two different moves have the same lyric?

Well, one has to go back into the history of the set to figure out exactly why there appears to be a difference in moves. This set was Lung Tzu Hsing's favorite set and became his trademark for demonstration back in the 1930 to 1950's. In general, students wanted to learn the sword set from him as this sword set was regarded as his expertist. Slight changes were made by him in stances and position of the sword such that these changes were viewed as "good" or "help the flow of the set", etc. However, he never made the changes to the lyrics and the existing lyrics that are handed down, are the original lyrics of pre-1920's (before the slight changes were made). He may have felt the changes were really not changes at all but really the same move with a different expression.

Now if it is the same move and there exist several names as in some moves in NSL sets, then it is reverse. The original lyric may have been lost or forgotten by the sifu and a substitute one was inserted while another sifu (classmate) still had the original lyric written somewhere.

[freedom76]

Gentlmen,
Thank you for your answers. It's nice to have knowledgeable people to ask questions of since I now study a lot more on my own. I can puzzle some out, but sometimes I hit a wall. I've really been enjoying the BSL Lyrics threads and other discussions on this forum.

[GeneChing]

Another big factor is translation variation. As you'll notice in the BSL lyric threads we worked on, often times you see different translations, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize that the characters are the same. Translating form Chinese can be tricky.

I was once playing with the lyrics for Shaohongquan and came up with several different versions. Even the count of lyrics was different. But when you think about it, over time, it's only natural that lyrics evolve, strengthening my overall music analogy. Look at the evolution of music lyrics and you'll see the same phenomena.

[GeneChing]

It's been driving me crazy that the BSL lyrics I posted were before one of our big forum moves so the search engine doesn't reach them. So I'm compiling what I can find here, for easier access. Had to do it the hard way - manually searching the archives - I think I got them all.

BSL Lyrics: Lin Bo Kin (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12351)
BSL Lyrics: Tom Toy (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12377)

BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #1 (Open the Door) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12467)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #2 (The leader) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12504)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #3 (The horse stance) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12672)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #4 (Strike to the heart) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12789)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #5 (Martial Art) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12890)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #6 (The short strike) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12952)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #7 (The plum flower) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13025)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #8 (Shuffling) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13142)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #9 (Continuation) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13166)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin #10 (Skilled Technique) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13209)
BSL Lyrics: 18 techniques (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12438)

BSL Lyrics: Shaolin Staff (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13315)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin Broadsword (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13378)
BSL Lyrics: Lifting-up block, crossing-down block spear (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13823)
BSL Lyrics: Spring Autumn Long Handled Knife (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14055)
BSL Lyrics: Shaolin Straight Sword (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13414)
BSL Lyrics: Double Dagger (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13584)
BSL Lyrics: Dragon Head Crutch (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13717)
BSL Lyrics: Five Tigers Catch The Lamb Staff (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13665)
BSL Lyrics: Three-Sectioned Staff (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14702)
BSL Lyrics: Spinning Double Broadsword on the Ground (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14228)
BSL Lyrics: Tiger Head Double Hooks (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14474)
BSL Lyrics: Twin Flying Dragons Straight Swords (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14293)
BSL Lyrics: Spinning Chain Whip on the Ground (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15009)

[tattooedmonk]

Are these the lyrics for Wing Lam's DD form??

[GeneChing]

All the BSL lyrics that I posted were from my research with Wing Lam.

BTW, I was at his 60th Birthday Gala & School Reunion last Saturday. It was grand. Got to see some old classmates that I haven't seen in decades.

[tattooedmonk]

You wouldnt happen to have the lyrics for the Dragon Bagua Form, would ya??

[GeneChing]

Taiyi Fire Dragon Palm? (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-og001.html) Actually it doesn't matter. I don't have any of those lyrics handy, I'm afraid.

[tattooedmonk]

....if this is the same, I was refering to Wing Lam's Dragon Bagua. Sorry for the confusion.

[GeneChing]

...sorry, I don't have those.

[tattooedmonk]

thanks anyway.

[NorthernShaolin]

I believe Lam Sifu's Dragon Bagua is based on Sun Lu Tang and from that you might be able to piece together most of the lyrics from SLT's basic Bagua.

[tattooedmonk]

I believe Lam Sifu's Dragon Bagua is based on Sun Lu Tang and from that you might be able to piece together most of the lyrics from SLT's basic Bagua.Thank you again, NS.

[GeneChing]

Look what I found.


Posted on 01/09/2012
THE TEN HAND SETS OF NORTHERN SHAOLIN (http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/the-ten-hand-sets-of-northern-shaolin/)
(according to three primary documents)
[circa 1960]

[translation by Paul Brennan, Jan, 2012]

[GeneChing]

THE TEN HAND SETS OF NORTHERN SHAOLIN (https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/the-ten-hand-sets-of-northern-shaolin/)
Posted on January 9, 2012 by Paul Brennan
–

THE TEN HAND SETS OF NORTHERN SHAOLIN
(according to three primary documents)
[circa 1960]

[translation by Paul Brennan, Jan, 2012]

A BSL friend shared this with me recently and it seemed only fitting to add to this thread.