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wingchunalex
01-26-2003, 05:47 PM
continuation of mine and empty cup's discussion.

1. you can work trapping when your opponet pulls their hand back, you grab the hand on the way back.

2. trapping does work if their hands are appart. you may not nessecarily cross them up.

3. you can trap when things get hot and heavy, it just takes a LOT of skill and mental calm.

4. you should be able to pull off stuff like lop sau (bong wu, lop da). Its hard, but I have done it when things get hot and heavy. you just have to ingrain it into your reflexes under stressful sparring. basically you have to make yourself keep using it in sparring even though you're getting the crap beaten out of you until you can make it work, then you don't get the crap beaten out of you any more. and all the advantages of being able to really apply lop sau open up.

KenWingJitsu
01-26-2003, 06:54 PM
This may become my new favorite thread
you just have to ingrain it into your reflexes under stressful sparring. basically you have to make yourself keep using it in sparring even though you're getting the crap beaten out of you until you can make it work
Truer words, never spoken. :D

What I wanna talk about is why whether trapping "works" is even an issue to begin with. To me it's 2 things; Definiton of 'trapping" and what your strategy should be when fighting if you're trying to use WC techniques.

There are many definitions of 'trapping' but the one word that describes it best is 'control'; Controlled hitting. Why hitting? because too many people in wing chun lack an idea of what they are supposed to be doing in a REAL confrontation. You are meant to hit....first, last and foremeost. If this is your FIRST goal in an encounter, you will easily accomplish this by inteerception. Forward pressure....chain punches. If he resists this pressure, then you 'clear the way' with your 'traps' to ENABLE YOU TO KEEP ON HITTING.
Too may wing chunners focus on how many "-sau's" they can pull off. This is irrelevant as they only appear based on contact sensitivity. If the contact isn't there or isn't sufficient enough for you to react in a "-sau" :D , then simply keep hitting.

wingchunalex
01-26-2003, 08:09 PM
i guess what i'm trying to say is that its important to figure out through a whole lot of trial and error first how to make more "advanced" wing chun moves work.

like doing the huen and palm strike after the high gang sau (jom sau).

or making the full lop sau work.

part of the advantage of doing teh high gang sau is that you cab deflect (where their arm bounces off yours) with it (hard) or you can redirect with it (keep contact) and heun and palm strike. the heun and palm let you get on the inside.

both ways are fine to do it.

I think pak sau is a good block, its one of your basics. i pak with the center of my palm. pak and wu with your lead hand a are good way to deal with a boxer's jab then come back with your own.

kwj- you mentioned how many "saus" people could pull off, I would sort of define it as how many "lop's" (lap, grab) you can pull off. not that you should be be really going too far past 2 lops, some times 3 if the person is really good.

the reason I prefer to trap is so that I'm taking away one of my opponents hands, so they can't use if for offence or defence. so then with my other hand punching they have to defend with their other hand, so then i can set them up cause i know they have to block or get hit.

I get what you're saying about if you can hit do it. I think a balance of controling a hand and just going for the opening is needed.

wingchunalex
01-26-2003, 08:12 PM
since im short, i have a very short reach. a lot of time i'm out of range to just attack the opening, or they are in range to hit me and I can't hit them. so trapping lets me get their arms out of the way so I can get in close. so trapping really does work for me and its sort of a necessity.

YungChun
01-26-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by wingchunalex
1. you can work trapping when your opponet pulls their hand back, you grab the hand on the way back.


Absolutely not IMO. Here you are chasing hands - which is not the objective of WCK. You would hit while possibly pressing and pinning his other hand against his body since it is retracting.

YungChun
01-26-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Why hitting? because too many people in wing chun lack an idea of what they are supposed to be doing in a REAL confrontation. You are meant to hit....first, last and foremeost. If this is your FIRST goal in an encounter.

Exactly. The trap is happenstance. When you attack the center and something gets in the way it is removed via the trap - if they resist you change to flow with their resistance. Thas what trapping is.

YungChun
01-26-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by EmptyCup
i think pak is dangerous b/c it's easy to miss since the contact point is just the heel of the palm when you have an entire forearm to block with using other moves.



Agree. Pak is a very small area of control to gamble your life on. Pak is best used AFTER contact to remove an obstruction. A Fook provides the entire surface of the inside of the forearm to control the line. Assuming of course that the elbow is in close to the line where it is supposed to be. Otherwise that won't work either.

YungChun
01-26-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by EmptyCup
er..which "fook" are you talking about? you mean "pow"? the high block by your ear?

Don't know what a Pow is. For receiving a mid level ouside/in attack, which is how Pak Sao normally is used to 'receive' at punch as in the drill - a Fook Sao closes the same line but has a much larger area to make contact with the incoming.

Fook Sao - the outside gate tool in Chi-Sao. Example:

He shoots a straight right at your mid section using Fook to receive the attack it changes, as contact happens into Jut Da.

YungChun
01-27-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by EmptyCup
yes i know what fook sau is in chi sau. but fook sau doesnt' really exist beyond that so to speak.

it's not a block. it's like huen sau...a name for a transitional technique.

that's why i'm confused...how would one go about blocking/intercepting with fook?

Just as I wrote:


He shoots a straight right at your mid section using Fook to receive the attack it changes, as contact happens into Jut Da.


A fook exists to control a zone - close a line. The forearm fills up that part of the line. If you start in Man Sao and the attack flows into the inside line at your chest then the Man Sao should change into Fook to close the line and then may Jut to gain control, or may convert directly into a punch as the elbow controls the incoming shot. If you Jut with the Fook you would hit with the other hand.

If you wouldn't use Fook to control an inside middle line attack and you wouldn't use Pak, which I agree with, then what would you use? The elbow needs to come in to close that line!

These tools Fook and Tan, Biu, Gum, etc, are designed to close off lines as an attack comes in - Man Sao, if you use that, must change and close the zone under attack by filling up the Centerline.

Wingman
01-27-2003, 12:23 AM
Before anything else, my definition of a trap is when you control both the opponent's hands with one hand. That leaves your other hand free to strike (or do whatever you want to do). The opponent's hands may not necessarily be crossed (one hand on top of the other).

YungChun
01-27-2003, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by EmptyCup
i'd use high gang...which blocks an inside attack from the outside

i dont' quite see how fook is used still. are you saying that it looks the same as the fook used in chi sau but just as a block?

are you talking about mun sau as in the man sau from biu tze?

A Man Sao is an Asking Hand.

In the senario I described it is a transition from a Man Sao to a Fook. The elbow leads the forearm into the line, but the Fook closes the same line as in Chi-Sao supported by the elbow, which is the same line Pak controls in the Pak Sao excercise .

The purpose of using the Fook is the same as in Chi-Sao in so much as you are clearing the line. The benefit of the Fook is the large surface area of the forearm used to FILL THE CENTER and receive the attack. The Fook redirects the incoming energy across the Centerline in order to clear a path. The elbow supports the tool so that it can handle a high level of attacking energy. This is based on the core WCK concept of filling up the 'door' and clearing the line. You could also bring the opposite hand inside - with footwork too - and use a chopping hand from Wu Sao as in Lop Sao to clear the line, however the elbow should be in for structural support in any case and to provide the longest - strongest - largest surface area for meeting the attacking force, which is why I agreed with not using the Pak. But all of this depends on the angle with respect to your center and his plus the distance.

What is a gang?

black and blue
01-27-2003, 02:39 AM
Absolutely not IMO. Here you are chasing hands - which is not the objective of WCK. You would hit while possibly pressing and pinning his other hand against his body since it is retracting.

Sounds familiar - "pressing and pinning his other hand against his body since it is retracting" - :)

The other night we were working a drill using lan sau. Using arrow walk to press forward with lan sau, while using our free hand to hit. All of this stemmed from our opponent covering up from our initial punch to the face and then backing away under the pressure.

Some nice advice in this thread.

dezhen2001
01-27-2003, 04:17 AM
yung chun: i think gang sau is another way of spelling gaan sau?

dawood

mun hung
01-27-2003, 12:03 PM
I thought phoenetically in cantonese it would be spelled "gong sao". Like "gong-teen" - farm. (unless maybe your a toy-san lo):D

YungChun
01-27-2003, 12:07 PM
Gong Sao is usually a low deflection whereas for a higher gate it sounds like you might be using a Biu Sao. Check this out under applications.

www.wingchuninteractive.com

It may help us understand each other better. The example I am talking about is similar to their Jut or Jum Sao example in terms of how to receive the attack.

wingchunalex
01-27-2003, 12:43 PM
I've know that outside chopping block to be Jom sau. and I know gaun sau to be outside splitting block (culitvating block)(low). I've heard of jom sau being called high gaun sau.

so is gaun sau=gang sau?

Is high and low gang sau= jom gaun?

KenWingJitsu
01-27-2003, 04:37 PM
Good discussion so far...


I get what you're saying about if you can hit do it. I think a balance of controling a hand and just going for the opening is needed.
wcalex, the only problem with this, (and this is somethign you WILL encounter if you spar enough) is that "aiming" to control a hand is "chasing hands" as Yung Chun pointed out. Ever sparred a boxer/kickboxer? Almost impossible to willingly 'trap' a boxers hands. However,....you CAN get away with it...once....maybe even twice....but, I can promise you, you won't get away with it again if he's halfway decent.
What you can always bank on however, is hitting through to his center. IF.........and this is where your 'trap' comes in. If his hand is in the way, either retracting, blocking or striking, THEN.........you react with your lop/tan/pak momentarily, and seek to keep hitting.

You mentioned your height. Trust me...this is an even better solution for shorter guys. One of my seniors is 5' nothing lol. And all he does is go for the gold (center line) His arms are so short, but his strategy is the same ALL the time and it works ALL the time. :D

fa_jing
01-27-2003, 06:51 PM
The question is not really, does trapping work? rather, it is can YOU make trapping work? Given that you are studying Wing Chun, as you make the techniques your own and increase your repetoire, you are bound to include some trapping motions. You will then be able to gauge their effectiveness, without recourse to an internet forum. My contention is that a Wing Chun fighter will find many opportunities to trap, but that they will arise in the flow without being forced.

Style caveats apply. You probably won't be trapping a wrestler's arms.

wingchunalex
01-27-2003, 08:29 PM
I'll ask my sifu where I can find more boxers to sparr. he boxed before he did wing chun.

I'll get back with you once I do.

I personally think you should be able to trap against a boxer.

I more see chasing hands as deviating from your centerline to block punches when you don't have to.

I don't see starting out your attack with lop da or pak da as chasing hands. If you missed the pak or lop then it wasn't timed right or the distance was wrong. I think they are good way's to set up attacks. a staight punch is good too.

Jeez these terms are a bother.

for me-

jom sau-high inside chopping block
gum sau- "pinning hand" downward slap block.
gaun sau- low outward sweeping block, "splitting block"

YungChun
01-27-2003, 08:54 PM
There really are no traps.

The trap is incidental and is a result of using their energy to assist in clearing the Centerline.

This results in their arms being what westerners have termed 'trapped.'

Instead of "Can you trap?" the question should be, "Can you clear and control the Centerline?"

Also I don't see fook any more 'transitional' than any other position with the exception of bong, which 'doesn't stay.'

wingchunalex
01-28-2003, 08:40 AM
fook sau for me is a block and not a tranisitional move. its a hooking block with the wrist. basically used in the same way pak sau is but its has more of a absorbing/redirecting quality than deflecting that pak has. very white crain.

tnwingtsun
01-28-2003, 02:54 PM
I was taught that trapping was something that just happens
when you're trying to hit or kick.

Its not the objective.

Like the bumper sticker says,$hit happens,well, trapping happens.


BTW YungChun,very cool site

YungChun
01-29-2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by EmptyCup
wingchunalex

fook sau is used as a block?! i take it you're not from the yip man lineage correct?

what type of "ging" is used when blocking with fook?

May be a variant of Fook - it's not the fook straight out of SLT. Did you see the examples on the link I posted?

www.wingchuninteractive.com

The Jum & Jut Sao applications are essentially the same movements that I refer to with small differences. Regardless of what you call the movement the elbow in close to the line the bridge occupies the line and receives the attack. This is transitional as are all movements - nothing stays really - the fook type position could convert to either Jut Da or Jum Da with either both arms or one. The ging...hmmm well not sure if I understand the term too well but most all of the movements use Centerline targeted forward spring energy and the immovable elbow. I don't think this use of the tool is all that rare. Yes I am of Yip's line - see sig.

For and inside middle attack you said you used 'gong' used high, which doesn't really translate to me either since gong as I understand it is a low gate parry. Unless you mean what we call a Biu Sao, which is very commonly used to 'block' or meet energy especially for high gate attacks. If you see the link and what they show we should be able to speak more clearly.

YC

dezhen2001
01-29-2003, 12:44 AM
i always thought high gaan sau looked kinda like tan sau, but you connect on the outside with the inside (little finger side) of your arm, coming in at an angle... like doing gaan sau on the dummy, uses low and high at the same time. its not bil sau.

dawood

YungChun
01-29-2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
i always thought high gaan sau looked kinda like tan sau, but you connect on the outside with the inside (little finger side) of your arm, coming in at an angle... like doing gaan sau on the dummy, uses low and high at the same time. its not bil sau.

dawood

Yes, I am familiar with that movement - it is also in Biu Jee. But contact should be on the inside since in the form it chops into the line leading with the pinky side on a down diagnal. I don't recall the name of it though but it is used in a chopping manner. But I don't see much similarity with gong sao although it is paired with it in the form. Question is how does EC use it- if that is what he uses? In a chopping fashion or from the Center. All tools should start in the center and penetrate the line like Tan and Fook. If he uses it from the Center does it only occupy the line until bridged or is he coming from outside and chopping to the center? As long as the line is closed and occupied (WCK attacks and defense originate from the Centerline) and presses forward converting to attack, etc., then it's all good to me.

In any case did you see the link I posted? If we could all see that at least we would have a single reference point. The use I was speaking of is there.

YC

dezhen2001
01-29-2003, 03:11 AM
yup i saw the link you posted :)

um... whenever i have used this technique (and also from the dummy form i think - im not there yet), its used with a change of position and going in towards the centre. sorry i wasnt clear but i meant the outside of your partners arm, with the inside of yours.

as for fok sau, in my very limited experience you can use it to redirect your partners energy, so its not a block per se but works well :)

dawood

YungChun
01-29-2003, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
yup i saw the link you posted :)

um... whenever i have used this technique (and also from the dummy form i think - im not there yet), its used with a change of position and going in towards the centre. sorry i wasnt clear but i meant the outside of your partners arm, with the inside of yours.

as for fok sau, in my very limited experience you can use it to redirect your partners energy, so its not a block per se but works well :)

dawood


Agreed.

In fact most all the movements are redirecting or parrying since this allows one to use the opponent's energy to greater effect. Some adaptive moves like using Biu Sao to Jam a round punch is more of a block but along with forward energy it can also be used to upset balance via energy issuing. IMO the best 'parry' is the strike that takes the path of the incoming, deflecting it as it moves on to the target - BANG! Hard to do but it can be done. Jeet Kune aspect of WCK.

dezhen2001
01-29-2003, 04:35 AM
when i play with my friends from wing chun and other styles i often use bil sao and it pretty much works against whatever they throw against me (in conjunction with stepping and footwork). but if both their arms have contact with it, i have to change :)

dawood

KenWingJitsu
01-29-2003, 10:25 PM
i always thought high gaan sau looked kinda like tan sau, but you connect on the outside with the inside (little finger side) of your arm, coming in at an angle... like doing gaan sau on the dummy, uses low and high at the same time. its not bil sau.
You're describing Jum-sau.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 05:13 AM
terminology between schools is confusing :confused: for us jum sau is after the tan sau in SLT then jum sau to change to wu sau and bring it back in.

dawood

aelward
01-30-2003, 11:19 AM
obviously, I'm joining in this thread a little late.

It seems there are two separate themes here, one is what a "gang sao" is; the other, if "trapping" works. And I think the source of both is the Chinese-English translations.

For the trapping aspect of it, does anyone know if the English word "trap" was used before Bruce Lee? As I'm sure we all know, he took "feng sao" and translated it first as "trap", then later as "hand immobilization," and the former has found its way into modern WC/VT/WT usage. I personally envision the "feng" of "feng sao" to mean "closing/sealing off," "enveloping," or "control." I'm not sure of the origin of the word, but iconographically, it is two piles of dirt next to a measurement-- and early in Chinese history, it was used to mean an area of land that was put under the control of a feudal lord's vassal. In modern day Chinese, it is usually used with regards to envelopes and sealing things up.

So what does this all mean with regard to WC? I think it can broadly be interpreted as positioning your body and limbs so that you can control a clear path to the centerline. If you are on someone's outside gate, then you can can either move yourself laterally or move his hand medially to give you access to the center; if you are on his inside gates, you can occupy space through contact to keep his structure open.

And of course, your goal is to hit, and to hit safely. Therefore, all of your attacks should come while your opponent is "feng"-ed, whether that comes from your position with regard to his, or his hands are tied up (usually after he has put an obstacle in the path between you and his center, and you clear it by some sort of "sao").