I keep seeing this --why?

[Arhat of Fury]

I keep seeing this thought process and its been bothering me!
Why is it that some people on this board discount sanshou fighters and make statements like " sanshou, thats a sport and is just for the ring" implying that it is not effective and wouldnt stand a chance against a real kung fu stylist(raise both hands with two fingers up and make quotation jestures)
I dont see the logic or deductive process. If someone is training to FIGHT and competing regularly and kickin people a$$e$ with gloves and pads on, what makes people think that when they take the gloves and pads off, that they are suddenly ineffective and cannot fight?

I have also read people say things like " I can get much more out of a sparring session, than a competition. You cant really learn from a competition"

My thought is that you can learn from competition. Just like football teams watch tapes so can you and learn from them. Maybe you think about winning a little more, but sometimes that can motivate you to do better.

Just some thoughts,
What do you all think/

AOF

[red5angel]

Arhat - 2 things man, first, you see it all the time, but it looks something like "(Insert style here) doesn't work on the street" or "(Insert style here) won't work against (Insert style here)"

Most of these arguments, almost all of them, are put out by someone who has no effin clue what they are talking about. They don't know enough about the art or they don't know enough about fighting. they assume that while one thing is a sport, it must not be good for fighting or vice versa.

The second thing is this, when you want to do the quotation thingy online, just use these > " " <, they're called quotations... ;)

[Suntzu]

The second thing is this, when you want to do the quotation thingy online, just use these > " " <, they're called quotations... :D :D :D

one thing I have learned is that sometimes u gotta train without the gloves…

[Arhat of Fury]

Red5,

Yeah, i just like to use that jesture, its more sarcastic and condisending than plain old quote marks.:D

Suntzu,
I like those clean and jerks, helps me work on uprooting. Do you incorporate those into your workout.

AOF

[red5angel]

Arhat, no problem man I understand...however -

"I like those clean and jerks, helps me work on uprooting. Do you incorporate those into your workout"


this is a famliy forum ladies so keep it clean..... :D

[Suntzu]

I do them with the KB… I haven't gotten into Oly lifts yet… I think I'll wait until I find someone to show me how correctly… I'm going to look into that this summer… but regular back squats gave me good results up-rooting too…

[ShaolinTiger00]

Thanks AOF. Just imagine what a sanshou guy can do without gloves and rules. ;)

The sanshou community has never had the support of the majority of the kung fu community. - and we don't care. :D

btw - clean and jerk (and press)= my favorite weight excercise!! great for building core strength.

[Arhat of Fury]

Red5, LOL- I left myself wide open, and I normally dont do that;)

Suntzu and ST,

I will usually, work my 2 muscles per day in a BB routine (for the ladies:D ) and strength and then at the end of the workout hit clean, and jerk pressesfor about 5 sets of eight at whatever weight those numbers dictate.

ST00- maybe its a deep down insecurity or fear of that question "what if I cannot employ my techniques effectively in a real life situation"?



:(

Who knows, it just blows my mind cause I have been in both environments and the sanshou seems to be more frequently employed with combat(sparring)

AOF

[Suntzu]

I think some "Masters" might be exposed for what they are and what they aren't… and a school that advertises "self-defense" and such would have to show and prove… losing is not good for business i guess... and sometimes its just personal…

[ShaolinTiger00]

maybe its a deep down insecurity or fear of that question "what if I cannot employ my techniques effectively in a real life situation"?

I think that is exactly why most fighters get into the sport! Because they Must know!

[red5angel]

I think just about any art can be applied in a pinch in the street if need be. Some arts may not be the best suited for it but take San Shou for instance, it may be a sport but why couldn't those guys use it in the street?
I like to look at it this way, every one makes fun of TKD because it has become so watered down by the sportive aspects of it, however, in all the fights I have seen where martial arts was a factor, most o fthem were carried out by students of TKD and in all of those occasions, they "won".

[Volcano Admim]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Just imagine what a sanshou guy can do without gloves and rules. ;)

break is his hand knucle wrist one? ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

Mighty Admin Volcano,

gloves = jab/cross

bare hands = eye gouge/ palm strike

done with practically the same mechanics. and practiced at full speed and power.

take the gloves off and I can also get a better grip on you for a throw or takedown.

[Volcano Admim]

how is can do eye goat and palm fight in real sittuattions if never do this against full resistand opoenet. Always doing jac/gross against resistand opeonent in sparring so on street you do the same jac/gross and not palm fight because its in the brain ;)
you trian like you fight ;)

[Arhat of Fury]

Volcano, good point

I think some sanshou fighters have martial training in their back ground and have already learned to employ these techniques, from there it is a simple manipulation of the fist/palm. Although it does not address the "you fight as you train" princiopal that does hold water and leaves room for injury if applied wrong. For myself, changing a normal fist to a chop choy(CLF) and looking for the tender spots(below the nose, eyes and throat) to exploit would be my aim.

AOF

[ShaolinTiger00]

The big difference is I'm practicing my technique at full go. over and over and over. you may practice an "eye gouge" but you can't ever do it full contact and repeatedly as I can until its committe to muscle memory.

Who's going to be able to pull it off in reality?

Bank on me;)

[jon]

Whats with all the hype about San Shou of late?
I practice San Shau and traditional Tai Chi and Bagua, my sifu encourages us to test what we know and the San Shau is just an enviroment which allows us to do that. It may not be perfect but its not exactly bad either. Then again push hands is not exactly 'perfect' combat training either.

I can kinda understand the San Shou people getting upset at the traditionalists who refuse to give any type of contact a go.
I cant understand the traditionalists who believe that this will somehow be a detriment to there training.

Honestly its not like doing a bit of ring sparring a few times a week is going to ruin your form work or the power generation training your doing.
It may get you used to being punched in the face or slammed hard into the floor. It may also give you the experience of actualy landing a hit and how an opponent reacts to being blitzed or whatever else.


I can understand if people dont like being hit or whatever but call a spade a spade. If you dont want to fight then be proud to say "i dont want to fight". If you think that somehow not fighting is going to prepare you for 'street combat' then your in for a rude shock when you meet someone who makes hard physical contact a training passtime and not an interlectual adventure.


Having said that its fairly obvious the street is not the ring, its also fairly obvious that someone who doesnt do contact training is not going to succede in either.

I also fail to understand why people seem to equate contact automaticaly with strict competion.
Many of the guys i train with come from compleatly different backgrounds. We have Thai boxers, grapplers, internalists, Wing Chun, BJJ, standard kickboxers, even the odd karate or TKD guy shows up. We arange times and places to meet and then we all get together and have a bash around, then go out for drinks.
Competion may be the end aim (for some) but the journey is whats important. We all have a great time and no one is there trying to play power trips. Just a bunch of people who all want to keep there skills real and recognise that this is a good way to do it. Heck most of the time no one even keeps score and the refs entire job revolves around making sure we actualy stick to the rules instead of going off on a tangent(not an easy task with such a melting pot of different arts). Why do people seem to think if you do full contact you must also compete in muscle man comps or cage fights.


You would be ammazed at some of the rediculous excuses ive been given to not try contact sparring. In the end most of the people who ive seen do it have gone on to show great improvement very quickly. I think the results speak volumes for the training method.

[Liokault]

The big difference is I'm practicing my technique at full go. over and over and over. you may practice an "eye gouge" but you can't ever do it full contact and repeatedly as I can until its committe to muscle memory.


Who's going to be able to pull it off in reality?


Well I have done it in reality and it worked just fine........It may even have won me the fight if it wasnt for his 5 friends kicking me in the back and on the back of my head!!!(we were on the floor).



As for San Shou being no good for the street......thats rubbish!! San Shou produces confidant fit strong fighters who are used to being put in preassure situations and who are used to taking full power hits.

Having said this San Shou or any sport fighting is not the street and fighting should not be confused with sport with martial art skill or with self defense. All of them are differant.

Any sport trains very hard in a very narrow specific senario so where the San shou guy may be a great competitor when he goes for a clinch on the street he may get more than he expects.......the guy hes fighting may (or may not) worry about the nicities and conventions of the clinch and just bite said san shou guys ear off!!! Did the San Shou guys trsining consider this? Probably not.

[Arhat of Fury]

Jon, I have to agree with your post and the fact that people dont spar because their art is too deadly. I honestly think that is a cop out. If people really wanted to improve or "prepare" for the street, they could still spar and practice at full speed and power without putting the "death touch" on their oponent. I mean if their that deadly, they obviously can NOT kill someone. This is not directed at all traditionalist, just a small portion who use this motto to hind behind their fears of the ring!





Liokault, nice post although, no art studies with EVERY situation in mind, they study with what "they" think wold happen or against a certain art.

AOF

[ShaolinTiger00]

San shou guy may be a great competitor when he goes for a clinch on the street he may get more than he expects.......the guy hes fighting may (or may not) worry about the nicities and conventions of the clinch and just bite said san shou guys ear off!!! Did the San Shou guys trsining consider this? Probably not.

Wrong. It is a huge consideration. Sanshou's true focus is real combat. A trained San shou guy want to engage the opponent, either strike him to set up a clinch or defend against the opponents strikes and then clinch. He then commits to a takedown or a throw to lay his opponent out flat on his back. He doesn't want to stand around going toe to toe with an opponent because he doesn't have control and the opponent can land a lucky punch/kick no mater how good his defense may be.

You say "the clinch" but I'd be truly suprise if you realized how intricate this aspect of fighting really is. It isn't just two guys hugging like boxers waiting for a ref. There are offensive and defensive clinches, upper body, waist, different control points, overhooks, underhooks, ****zers, on and on.

Clinch = control. the only reason you clinch is to control your opponent into a position you want him in. If you don't know what to do in a clinch, its not a good place to be because of all the weapons! You mentioned biting and one of th first rules of good clinching is to control the neck. to prevent head butts, bites and you also dictate where the opponent will be balanced (where the head goes the body follows)

Just ask Apoweyn or Merryprankster how true this is from our last workout.

I also believe that many of you think of "groundfighting" is the same general manner, and do not realize how intricate it can be.

Judo has also taught me an amazing amount of this aspect of training, everything from how to grip and opponent, off balancing, position and execution.

[lkfmdc]

who hits harder? a guy who hits a heavy bag and pads everyday or a guy who does his techniques in the air every day??

I had a guy with "7 years traditional kung fu training" in a bag class once, he couldn't issue any power whatsoever. He tried and tried to hit the bag, at first I really thought it was a joke, but the guy was just darn confused why his punches had no power after years of form work

He was really confused, a bit upset and didn't join after his class, now he's an assisstant instructor at said "traditional kung fu" school, a lot of people would rather live in their safe fantasy land than get out there and have to face the truth

Considering that San Shou fighters train to clinch and throw you before you can count to 4, by the time you thought to bite me you'd be doing a head stand on the concret, I WIN :)

dim mak, iron palm, secret Chin Na, chi blasts and "advanced martial art" all give people who can't fight something to fall back on, once they learn this stuff, they will be deadly :p

[ShaolinTiger00]

Coach Ross, - Email address where I can reach you? (you have many and I never know where to send one.)

thanks.

william_easlick@hotmail.com

[lkfmdc]

if you send to any of them sooner or later I get them :0 too much hacking instinct I guess, like to have multiple identities LOL

try this one DRoss@sanshou.org

[Liokault]

Considering that San Shou fighters train to clinch and throw you before you can count to 4, by the time you thought to bite me you'd be doing a head stand on the concret, I WIN


Well u better be able to do somthing in less time than a 4 count.....he could bite both ears off by then and whats to stop him biteing your toes if u stand him on his head?

[David Jamieson]

who hits harder? a guy who hits a heavy bag and pads everyday or a guy who does his techniques in the air every day??

you have to do one to lead into the other in my experience.

Bag training is essential to understanding delivery of force and correct alignment.

Training in the air develops speed and targeting if done correctly.

together they will add up to something to build on.

starting at the bag isn't always the best way to go though imo.
I've seen a lot of people go straight for the bag and wind up hurting themselves.

cheers

[lkfmdc]

Kung Lek, you'll forgive me (or not as the case may be)

Boxers spend very little time hitting air, they shadow to warm up and then hit pads and heavy bags. Generally speaking, boxers hit harder than anyone else on the planet

After boxers, Kickboxers/Thai boxers/Sanshou/Sanda types also hit and kick pretty **** hard, they also seem to not do much air hitting aside from shadowing

We've had this discussion a million times before it seems, you are entitled to your opinions but not all opinions are the same. I've got guys regularly KO'ing people in boxing, kickboxing, San Shou and Muay Thai... I actually have a reputation for 'hitting hard" even among these groups.

My professional opinion, keeping the above in mind, is that air puncher like to think they can hit hard, but they really don't

[Xebsball]

just wanted to clarify that
Saying that all tradicional people dont hit things (bags, trees, walls, pads) is incorrect.
We do both in the air and hitting those objects. On my solo training i just dont pratice on a bag becouse i dont have anywhere to hang one at home, so i mostly hit the wall with some padding, sometimes with none.
Sun Lu Tang used to bang a cannon.

[lkfmdc]

San Shou students do either heavy bag or pad work every class, up to 15 rounds of 3 minutes each

How often to TCMA students in today's schools make contact with something? For how long?

[red5angel]

Ikfmdc, I think if you are running into TMA guys who don't hit solid targets there is some sort of phenomena in your area. Most TMA guys I know and have trained iwth spend plenty of time hitting, wall bags, heavy bags, thai bags, each other, etc... maybe, maybe not as much as say a boxer but still. I think the guy you came across who couldn't issue any power probably had deeper issues then jus not hittingthings or being in TMA.
The hardest I have ever been hit was by a guy in wingchun.

[lkfmdc]

I'm in New York City, there are more than just a couple of TCMA schools around here :)

See the above, the vast majority of TCMA training in this country right now is not contact oriented. In fact, it's pitful compared to the training people who actually FIGHT engage in

Should I tell you about the "famous Chinese master" at the last US Wushu nationals that sent his students into San Shou. Sad for them, they fought two of my guys. The first guy gave up in about 35 seconds, he told us later that while they "spar" he had never been hit hard and after the first punch saw "nothing but black"

They did "pad work' (what, I have no idea?) once a week for 15 minutes. And they sparred once a month. Makes me sort of glad I aint no famous Chinese master.....

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
How often to TCMA students in today's schools make contact with something? For how long?

Definately not many, there are tons of "forms based" schools out there.
If you are thinking the average TCMA i can completely agree with you to the unfortunate fact that most of them really lack on combative aspects.

[SevenStar]

since this horse has been pounded several times, I'll keep it short and sweet - contact is essential.