martial arts training counter-productive?

[Ging Mo Fighter]

In a similar way to what Bruce Lee thought of the traditional martial arts, I would like to start a discussion about freestyle fighting.

I've been doing KungFu for about a year now, and the style of KungFu I do is quite different from western boxing wrestling (like most styles of kungfu)

the question i've been asking myself, is that would i perform better in a fight using my KungFu skills, and everything i've been taught by my instructors in a fight,
OR
would I perform better, forgetting everything i've learnt, punching when needed, wrestling if I felt it was the best thing to do, eye poking and hair pulling when I felt it was needed.. etc..

I supose this comes down to enlightenment in martial arts and all that sort of stuff, obviously training that builds up your strength/speed/endurance/co-ordination can only help you in fighting, but it can be utalized in both forms of fighting mentioned above.

Is it worth learning awkward techniques? do they take too much time to master, and indeed call upon in a real fighting situation? are advanced techniques useless because you should be using that split second to poke an eye or do a takedown?

This is something I constantly think about, because my style of KungFu like many others has selected techniques. What ever happened to doing "what you feel like"

main question being - IS SIMPLE BETTER? should martial arts training exclusively be to condition your body, and not your mind (which in my opinion knows how to fight already) - its instinctive isn't it?

[yenhoi]

Your mind doesnt know how to "fight" already, it knows how to very generally keep you alive.

I dout there is any such thing as an advanced fighting technique, and if something feels "awkward" when you are performing in your happy little gym with happy little sifu and happy little training partner, then good luck 'pulling off' any such strangeness under duress.

the question i've been asking myself, is that would i perform better in a fight using my KungFu skills, and everything i've been taught by my instructors in a fight,
OR
would I perform better, forgetting everything i've learnt, punching when needed, wrestling if I felt it was the best thing to do, eye poking and hair pulling when I felt it was needed.. etc..

Probably a natural question. If you are not confident in your training then you need to go do some serious testing before you waste too much time on something you are unsure about.

Simple is always better (not always.) Martial arts training that is purely body conditioning would be seriously lacking.

[red5angel]

I have this theory that when you first begin your martial training, you become more vulnerable then you may have been before you started. This doesn't apply to everyone of course.
You can win a fight sometimes by just flailing away, pummeling the other guy into submission or unconciousness. However, you are not in real control, and there are too many ifs or buts in this kind of fighting.
Once you begin to learn to fight, through martial arts, you begin to learn control, but within a short time you come up with choices and this leads to thoughts. Now the issue is that you could resort to flailing, but you understand that control is important and so try to control but you think too much.
It's when you finally get to that point where you no longer have to think about it that you really start to get dangerous.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Is it worth learning awkward techniques? do they take too much time to master, and indeed call upon in a real fighting situation? are advanced techniques useless because you should be using that split second to poke an eye or do a takedown?

1.No. 2.Yes. 3.Useless- no. but should be trained as additions to fundamentals.

Simple is better! In a fight your brain is going to change modes. You will be fighting on autopilot and only the tecnhiques you have committed to "muscle memory" will be of any use.

you've spent 1 year in a kungfu school and still question your fighting ability. that is sad my friend.

basic sanshou "offense" = 5-7 punches. 6 kicks. 2-3 throws/ 2 takedowns. and lots of practise fighting! a whopping <20 techniques that will make you unquestionabley confident that you can defend yourself.

its all about the fundamentals.... basics basics basics.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Ok, I think some of you guys were slightly *****s in your answering, but thanks all the same :)

First of all i'm not questioning my fighting ability, I never said that, I am however questioning the VALUE of my martial arts training.

So dont shove words into my mouth ShaolinTiger, apart from that, im glad that you can see where i'm comming from with this argument..

yenhoi : If you were a true martial artist you wouldn't be calling my sifu "a happy little sifu" that is disrespectful to me and my school, and obviously you havn't learnt much from your training in terms of respect and humility

[KC Elbows]

I agree with Red5. There's often an initial drop in effectiveness when first learning that wasn't there before, because you are thinking about your options.

However, once those options are second nature, watch out.

I also agree with ShaolinTiger. After a year, you should at least be able to defend yourself. Although I think ST's count on the number of necessary moves is high. 3 kicks is plenty, 6 is just northern guys trying to show off.:p Just joking.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
the question i've been asking myself, is that would i perform better in a fight using my KungFu skills, and everything i've been taught by my instructors in a fight,
OR
would I perform better, forgetting everything i've learnt, punching when needed, wrestling if I felt it was the best thing to do, eye poking and hair pulling when I felt it was needed.. etc..

The key is going based on principles, wich your mind/body should learn trough pratice. There are basic principles of fighting will be very much true to almost all if not all situations of combat.
This way you are not limited to "techniques i was shown in class" -> now you are connected to your nature, your nature of fighting (sounds like hippie stuff LOL i know, but its true)
You will be doing not just "what you feel like" but "what the situation triggered you to do".
What really sets the definition of a fighting art, its very core, is the principles -> and thats what you should attach yourself to, but not just that, also test this principles in all ways you can so that you are sure that your thing works.
And then just lets the fists and kicks and locks and all just fly and do their job when the time comes.


Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
main question being - IS SIMPLE BETTER? should martial arts training exclusively be to condition your body, and not your mind (which in my opinion knows how to fight already) - its instinctive isn't it?

Yeah simple is better, Xing Yi has 5 fists, everything else is variation.
You should train both body and mind to be strong. Also train the mind to break the limitational barriers that arise from stressful conditions such as a real fight on hostile enviroment.

[KC Elbows]

Ging mo, Yenhoi wasn't being intentionally disrespectful. He was using the word 'you' in a general way, not necessarily saying those things about you. Also, is it so disrespectful to call your sifu happy?

I just think members were answering your question.

And yes, simple is better, most of the time. Most of the good stuff is simple anyway. The complex stuff is fun for when you've already won.

[red5angel]

KC is right Gingmo, that is just Yenhois shining personality. He is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to these things. I actually don't think anyone was being disrespectful really, just answering your question in their own way.

[ShaolinTiger00]

So dont shove words into my mouth ShaolinTiger

Huh?



KC- I agree 3 plenty but 6 are core for my school.

lead leg front kick, rear leg front kick, lead leg round kick, rear leg roundhouse, side kick, back kick

[yenhoi]

Happy Little Ging Mo Fighter:

I dont see how any sane person would be offended by my post, but whatever rocks your jollys man.

I hope you caught my point before you went and got all ****y.

:eek:

[azwingchun]

I think this is a common problem when people start training and may be fairly new to the game. Though, some of the problems are very real depending on how your Sifu teaches. Some take the long approach and spend much time performing forms and very little fighting or sparring. I believe the teachers who spend more time on fighting builds a quicker confidence by their students in the style they are learning. This feeling can also happen when soemone comes from one style to a new style, they sometimes question the new styles effectiveness or maybe just certain techniques.

As far as just flailing or eye gouging someone instead of trying to remember certain exact aspect of your art of choice, this is also common. I remember onec I was teaching a police officer who was 5'11 245 lbs, total muscle. During a sparring session he somehow got me to the ground and had my head between his thighs. He asked me what I would do now? I told him in the street I would bite the hell out of his thigh if that was what it took. He said 'hey that's not Wing Chun'. I told him jokingly that he was right there sn't a biting form in Wing Chun, but if it is my only option why leave it out just because it wasn't actually taught to me in my system. Would I be willing to lose due to this fact?

I am a true believer in reacting to a situation, and if soemthing just happens to come out naturally and isn't so-called Wing Chun, well I reacted and it worked. IMHO

;)

I woud suggest if you like the style you do and you have complete confidence in your Sifu, stick it out for the long run. But don't limit yourself to exact techniques, I look at text book style techniques more as a guide and move from there. I am sure there are those who may disagree.

To end here, I remember an old Sifu of mine telling me once, that after the first couple of strikes are thrown in a fight then your training goes out the window. I asked him then why am I training? I personally don't believe this, I learn a certain style due to the effectiveness of it, and I would hope you all do the same thing. And though I mentioned that I look at the techniques as a guide, I still train to hold true to the style I have chosen. If not then I need to move on to a style I find to work in the street. If that is the aspect of the art you are looking for.

Good luck in your training.;)

[red5angel]

As for awkward techniques, my personal philosophy is that while many techniques may at first be awkward. If in a week it just doesn't seem to click with me, then I move on and not worry about it. For me its all about efficiency, if you can't make it work quick and successfully most of the time, why bother?

[No_Know]

Control violates reason; lack of confidence/trust in/Faith says to do something else. Monkey see monkey do. When one distrust training one might do as one has seen and believes can work that they can do. Or believing they can't win one might not be conscious of what to do or doing, yet feels to do something-flailing might occure.

Hair pulling, biting, groin strike...can generally universally be destractive. Staying alive well enough when in field of battle--Life, Street, Congress sanctioned warzone...--off-guarding before primery attack makes target more open for penetration of defenses; and strike success without hinderance likeliness increases.

Only proudness, arrogance... would have you restrict to merely techniques as in perfet form demo. Varience required is understood (eventually) by forms trained non-competioners. There's Basic and advanced supposedly. Kung-Fu is like Military training accademy. Several of the Southern military leaders of the Civil war in U.S. of central north A. history Had a relationship to training from a military accadey still respectable in it's reputaion (West Point(e)). Their awareness of strategies balanced their performance against the North's military quantity of supplies and personnel. Perhaps some such.

If a fight comes down to a few basics one might should use just those basics...Oh yeah the order of use cannot be absolutely predictable before the fight starts. Hmmm So (needle-and-thread) one should know them well enough to instantaneously pullthem out. Hmmm that requires someone to use the attacks I'll be using to counter. Hmmm. That's alot and some we might not even be able to think of. No matter how hard or long I train, I am likely to miss something training with a partner is not complete.

Kung-Fu has simulated attack types and ranges from multiple opponents. I won't Know how it feels to make contact, but I can train to instinct where my attacks should go. But I'll have to condition getting hit yet I should be building my endurance to last the fight with out getting too winded (that could be helpful).

Once I have these complex moves in my head...it will be a long while for me to actually implement these appropriately. But if I stick with it, my basic, becomes more advanced. And if a fight actually happens with me in it and I forget stuff, since I got to learn advanced, I'll be left with basic and distraction. If I only traind the minimal does that leave me with next to not anything if caught in a real fight?

Kung-Fu is advanced fight theory to advanced fight theory. But people Want to use what they studied or are studying instead of what is practicle for tis instance. Even though a Kung-Fu person might have advanced fight theory/strategies the opponent might not require more effort than first level strategy to overcome. Harder to overcome is peoples arrogance. They don't Want to win. They feel they have to Try to win-and they might choose fantastic glorious ways instead of what they might consider simple or trivial ways that are beneath them (ahem, cough! (their arrogance~))

[azwingchun]

My question to you is how quick do you move on if something seems to difficult? I understand what your saying, but I am curious how much time would you spend on something that doesn't seem quick to learn?

Reason for this question is, there have been many things in my training which I didn't like or find effective right off, and now understand more about a certain move(s) and use them when I said that I would never use them.

If all my students moved on everytime something didn't work right away, they would learn nothing, since anything new takes practice. When a student seems to be getting discouraged, I tell them if they new it already, they wouldn't need me to teach them.;)

[GLW]

Awkward can mean many things...

I have seen people come in that were so stiff and dependent on a certain type of body mechanic or movement that normal SIMPLE techniques would have been awkward for them.

I have also seen people go in to learn a style or method that is totally at odds with their body type, movement, personality, etc...so that techniques that ARE simple for a better fitted person would be awkward to them.

I have also seen people that come in to learn and can't empty their cup. They spend more time telling the teacher why their old way was better or what they used to do or whatever. For them, the awkwardness is one of mind and not necessarily technique.

Having said all this, I can also show you a number of things in several traditional routines that are truly awkward and useless.

So, sometimes awkward is really awkward and it REALLY is a waste of time unless you just like learning the esoteric and artsy ****sy type of things...and KNOW not to use them.

But, sometimes awkward is a limitation of the student or an excuse by some person to explain why they themselves can't do it.

If you truly examine things with an open mind and determine that the awkward thing is from the former and not the latter, then I would agree, don't do it...don't waste your time with it....

But, honesty with oneself is required for this.

[dezhen2001]

why do movements in forms ALL need to have an application? Why cant they be training your flexibility or body to move a certain way for example? For sure its awkward, until your body is flexible or can move that way...

ST00: a good core set of skills :) I remember its similar from when i did muay thai and boxing. Now i do wing chun though and like these skills more, yet still play with my friends who do MT and kickboxing :) suits me more.

dawood

[BrentCarey]

Several months ago I made a post on this topic. I don't know where that post is now, so I'll just repost. My apologies to the old-timers that have already read this.

The only thing I would add to this, is the fact that for the most part, new things are relatively awkward. Let's take riding a bike for example. There is very little that one would consider natural about this skill. However, through practice it becomes second nature. One cannot ride a bike without learning to ride a bike.

What is deceiving about fighting skills is that just about anyone can fight. However, there are some skills that are quite useful, but not the least bit natural. Everything else I have to say on the topic right now appears in the following repost:

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As you may have read in some of my other posts, I am a proponent of the notion that a kung fu combatant properly trained is superior to a practitioner of a simpler style properly trained.

The catch here is that it is more difficult and time-consuming to become "properly trained" in some of kung fu's more complicated techniques than it is to become "properly trained" in simpler techniques.

Let me give an example.

I can teach a person (student A) to do a proper rising block and straight punch combination in well under an hour. I will define a "rising block" as a fairly simple forearm block that starts at the abdomen and rises over the head, clearing anything that might be in its path. I will define a "straight punch" as being a simple corkscrew-style punch from the hip. The combination would consist of a simple block and counter. This is a simple technique common to many styles with only slight variations.

With a few days of practice, the person will be able to block and counter using these techniques in canned self-defense. In a few months, he/she can probably use them effectively in combat (assuming the person is otherwise ready for combat).

I can confidently say that a person with reasonable perception, confidence, and physical conditioning can have this pretty well down within 2-3 months (all else being as it should). This technique is just not very difficult and doesn't require a great deal of speed or accuracy, even in combat.

I take an identical student (student B) and teach him/her chao twe or a hook kick. I will define this move as blocking the punch by intercepting the attacker's wrist with the defender's same hand. Then while controlling the attacker's wrist, simultaneously striking the neck with a knife hand while kicking the attacker's leg out from under him at the back of the ankle.

This technique requires much more speed, better accuracy, superior positioning, greater perception (to recognize the opportunity), and faster thinking. It might take a student several sessions just to grasp the technique, and probably a year or more to really be able to deploy it effectively. The prerequisite traits I just mentioned are more demanding as well, increasing training time even more.

In short, all else being equal, student A will be better, sooner. However, once student B develops the prerequisite skills to really pull the technique off in combat, student A has no chance. His linear, clunky, and predictable moves will be no match for student B's more precise, flexible, and less predictable moves.

So, if for no other reason than training, the more complicated moves are superior. To master them, you must develop more speed and faster perception. Generally, the person with the greater speed and faster perception will prevail (all else being more or less equal).

Am I saying to train complicated moves, but use simple moves? Not really. I am saying to train complicated moves. If your opponent is slow enough for you to use them in combat, they can give you a distinct advantage. These moves WILL make you faster, and if you need to use moves that are more direct and quicker to deploy, you will be able to do so with superior accuracy, speed, and control.

Someone is reading this right now and asking, "If you had superior speed, then why wouldn't you just use your fastest techniques and be done with it?" To answer this, let's imagine a kickboxer with average speed vs. a Long Fist practioner with excellent speed. (Before the hate mail starts, I am not saying that kickboxers have inferior speed. I'm just saying that this one does for the purpose of the illustration.)

OK. Toe to toe, the kickboxer throws a punch. The most direct response for th KF guy is to block and counter directly. However, the kickboxer is well equipped to block this sort of straight-on attack, and may very well be faking the punch to get the KF guy to move his guard anyway.

So, the KF guy will have to play the block-and-counter game quite a bit and fairly well because even though he may be faster, he is playing into his opponent's strengths. The KF guy must use his superior speed to get behind the kickboxer (out of his "zone") and counter with a less direct attack that is harder for the kickboxer to predict.

Incidentally, in my experience this is the best way to defeat a proficient kickboxer because they tend to pretty much govern that front 90 degrees, but count on being able to prevent their opponent from slipping behind. I digress.

So, the KF guy must use his superior speed to execute less direct and less predictable techniques to penetrate his opponent's defenses.

If the KF guy lacks superior speed, he will probably lose unless he resorts to short, direct techniques (like the kickboxer), in which case he will be evenly matched (more or less).

So, in short (if I am capable of being brief):

- Speed is an asset.
- Fast perception and quick thinking are assets.
- Direct techniques are assets.
- Indirect techniques are assets.
- Deceptive techniques are assets.
- Training indirect and deceptive techniques will make you faster, improve your perception, and force you to think faster.
- Training indirect and deceptive techniques will improve your direct techniques.
- It takes more time and effort (kung fu) to gain the skill necessary to use more complicated techniques.
- Practitioners who have taken this time and effort are vastly superior to those who haven't (all else being equal).
- Many more complicated techniques require much less energy than simpler techniques with comparable effects.
- Many more complicated techniques require much less committed motion than more direct techniques, allowing the practitioner to change techniques more readily and to a greater advantage.

------------------------------------------------------------------


-Brent

[Laughing Cow]

Brent.

Many thanks for reposting that.

[dezhen2001]

havent seen u around for a while Brent... good to see you back :)

dawood

[yenhoi]

Brent, neat post, but it sounds like you are describing the diff. between one simple 'technique' vs a group of simple 'techniques' all at once. I see the benefit of teaching many simple techniques as one 'complicated' or 'advanced' technique, but that doesnt really make their application more complicated or better. Western Boxing has one of those super complex advanced techniques, similar to several found in CMA, called the JabCrossHook.

In the end its the individual's level of training that matters.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter


the question i've been asking myself, is that would i perform better in a fight using my KungFu skills, and everything i've been taught by my instructors in a fight,
OR
would I perform better, forgetting everything i've learnt, punching when needed, wrestling if I felt it was the best thing to do, eye poking and hair pulling when I felt it was needed.. etc..

If you are asking yourself this, I would guess that you aren't comfortable with the techniques you're learning. It's likely that you aren't drilling and sparring enough, and aren't applying the principles of what you are learning while doing so.


Is it worth learning awkward techniques? do they take too much time to master, and indeed call upon in a real fighting situation? are advanced techniques useless because you should be using that split second to poke an eye or do a takedown?

Once again, this sounds like an understanding issue.

This is something I constantly think about, because my style of KungFu like many others has selected techniques. What ever happened to doing "what you feel like"

over time, you become comfortable with whatever techniques you are learning. They become second nature, and thus, they are "what you feel like" Why in the world would you "feel like" throwing something like a haymaker? Learn proper technique, regardless of the style, and ingrain them into muscle memory.

main question being - IS SIMPLE BETTER? should martial arts training exclusively be to condition your body, and not your mind (which in my opinion knows how to fight already) - its instinctive isn't it?

It's not so much the mind that needs to know how to fight, but your muscles that need the coordination and skill to do so. You can tell yourself that you can get on a snowboard and do a 900, but what happens when you try it? you fail miserably. People who don't grapple say "I would do this..." and when they finally try, what happens? they fail. fighting technique needs to be ingrained into muscle memory. The ultimate goal is to NOT have to think when executing techniques. You want to act, not react. However, to answer your question, no, the mind does not know how to fight, IMO. knowledge of how to fight is something learned from experience. If it were as simple as the mind just instinctively knowing, we'd all be excellent fighters.

[ricksitterly]

you all just need to relax, take some ginseng, and get big boners

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I feel slightly obliged to tell you a bit more about my training because you've taken the time to answer some of my questions.

At the moment im working on 5 combinations
1. pock sow, gow choy, pay sow, chin teck
2. surlng / darn pay sow gow choy
3. pock sow, bill sow
4. pock sow, pock sow, gow choy, chow got, pay sow
5. surlng / darn pock sow, pay sow come nar

Just wondering if anyone else out there is doing a style/system of kungfu with techniques similar to these, and any comments :)

My training session at the moment comprises of stretching, pushing hands techniques, hand conditioning, forarm conditioning techniques, iron rings, body pad and hand pad training, hand drills, weapon forms, and combination work.. as well as a few specialised techniques to help learn and understand kill, ma, breathing, intent etc..

anyway, thanks for the response. :cool:

[No_Know]

"I dout there is any such thing as an advanced fighting technique, and if something feels "awkward" when you are performing in your happy little gym with happy little sifu and happy little training partner, then good luck 'pulling off' any such strangeness under duress."

I do not think Yenhoi was being disrespectful about your sifu.

I think speaking this way was a method to get a point across.

However, the point seems to have been relevant to, if you can't do a technique in the classroom-like safe environment of a School with someone who is there to teach you in a progressive manner according to your understanding capability as opposed to a throw you in the deep-end gotta break some eggs to make an omelette way, then you can't handle yourself in an upscale no holds barred situation like one might find outside of the School setting with uncaring people who won't be nice nor explain how to do better. But want to hurt you and will unless you are aware of the reality of what uglinesses people are capable of and can be willing to do. And that the techniques that you learned in class might need more mastery/understanding than you have at the moment, to be effective to be very helpful in an unfriendly fight.

I got something to that effect from what Yenhoi had down.

[yenhoi]

;)

[MightyB]

Actually Gin Mo, your last post looks like you're on track.

Training is just that, it's training.

You can break it down like this:
Nutrition and Fitness,
Speed and Coordination,
Strength Training and Conditioning,
Power,
Flexibility,
Mobility,
technique, application, and sparring.

Apply that list to what ever technique or style you choose and you'll eventually get good. If you want to be an effective fighter, train like one, it's that simple.