Possible WCK Origins Working Model

[reneritchie]

Anyone have any substative, on-topic, productive discussion they would care to share on this? Please note, I'm not only interested in agreement, but disagreement as well, but humply and respecfully request that either be thoughtful and supportable.

(And please, no hijacking)

Here's one example of such a model I think we can begin with, if anyone is interested:

Weng Chun Kuen from Fujian came to the Red Junk, including the 11 Fists, the 6.5 pole, and the Wooden Dummy. This was learned by Wong, Leung, Kam, et. al.

(We know Weng Chun Bak Hok was on the junks by the 1850s, since famed rebel leader Lee Man-Mao was a practitioner, we also know this material is common to both Weng Chun Kuen and Wing Chun Kuen and thus must have originated prior to their subsequent, independant development)

Siu Lien Tao came to the Red Junk, either whole as it descended later, or as raw methodology (perhaps from Emei as Hendrik's research suggests) and was learned by said Red Junk performers.

(IMHO, since we can't find Siu Lien Tao anywhere else prior to the RJ its impossible to state with any degree of certainty whether or not it came from elsewhere. Since both Wong Wah-Bo lineages and Yik Kam (and perhaps others) have this material, it must have originated prior to the split in lineages (Foshan & Panyu) of the late 1800s).

The knives of the Shanghai Small Knife Society came to said Red Junk performers, as did the similar sounding Wing Chun Kuen name, as described in Hendrik's article on the two triad brothers and the Red Turban rebellion.

(This is all referenceable in scholarly works devoted to the time of the rebellion, with Wing Chun Kuen relating to Dim Chun Kuen and the similarity of the knives having a relationship conjectured based on said similarities).

Said performers combined their knowledge of Weng Chun Kuen, Pole, and Dummy with Siu Lien Tao, used the methods with the double knives, and the latter art as a whole became known as Wing Chun Kuen (Recite Play (Opera Actor) Fist).

(Conjecture mixed with logical deduction based on the above and based on how WeCK and WiCK now exist).

When the Hung Gan failed and the actors fled, some like Kam taught the original Weng Chun Kuen, and some like Wong and Leung taught the Wing Chun Kuen.

(transition into know, post RJ history)

I believe while this may not be *the* origin of WCK, it is a workable one given the oral traditions of *many* families, as well as the histories of both the Red Junk, and the rebellions. I would welcome discussion of it, at least as a place to start.

[fa_jing]

The thing is, I can't imagine the dummy routine and the SLT to be from two different sources.

[reneritchie]

Hi fa_jing,

Excellent point. I think one thing we must do is separate the actual dummy itself with the routine as practiced on it. We could have inherited the actual physical dummy from the extent Weng Chun at the time, and the routine practiced on it could have evolved over time since then.

One interesting thing to note is that while the Siu Lien Tao (or Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, San Sik) is fairly (more or less in certain cases) consistent in choreography between the branches, the wooden dummy set varies more to the extreme, with similar motions but very different choreography. This may suggest that the set itself was much "looser" until modern times, or that various generations of master were freer in evolving it than they were the hand sets.

[Savi]

"the wooden dummy set varies more to the extreme, with similar motions but very different choreography. This may suggest that the set itself was much "looser" until modern times, or that various generations of master were freer in evolving it than they were the hand sets." - Rene

Do you think this may also be due inpart to some students who might not have learned the Muk Yan Jong from their sifu, thus being more prone to individualize or "fill-in" their style with outside influence (maybe another sifu) or their own ideas? This is just conjecture, but it certainly does cloud the path to the past. I think to find the origins of Wing Chun, the techniques and its branches are just the bark of the tree. We have to look into the sytems themselves also, as well as the field work. What if Weng Chun is the original Wing Chun, could this account for the different dummy forms as well? I am not fluent in Chi Sim Weng Chun, but I have heard (and this is ALL I have heard) that this kung fu has several different wooden dummies for training. Just an idea.

I do not have any working models for WC Origins, but I do believe to understand where 'something' comes from, one must understand what that 'something' is also. Choreography is one way to find connections into the past, but still it is too general an assumption for accurate research. It is a starting point, or a good point of reference, though. Agree? Researching the mental/technical aspects of a system (in technique, principle, concept, theory, strategy, tactic, idioms, philosophy, application) will give us greater understanding on the roots of said systems - especially when documented history is sparse - and give us clues to where it is rooted in history. We can also determine how complete something is based on if all the above aspects are completely connected, well connected, or inconsistent.

How can this be considered researching history? Well, this type of research might not be researching history, rather, more of researching a way into history. Knowing its philosophies and idioms MIGHT help us pinpoint its roots - as well as being able to teach them to our sihingdai or todai. This means one would have to be familiar with the philosophies of particular time periods and those before it. For example, Zhu Xi's philosophy of bounded learning holds tremendous influence in the HFY system.

Here is a quote from the VTM website: http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/:
"Garrett Gee Sifu stands the eighth generation disciple of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System taught under Grand Master Dr. Ming Wong. Further more, Garrett Gee Sifu was born in a multi-generational martial arts family renown for intellectual leadership, statesmanship, and excellence in martial arts and military matters. His historical lineage dates back to the Song Dynasty where his ancestor, Zhu Xi, had a profound influence on Chinese philosophical development for generations through his expositions on logical thought and scientific rationale."

Researching also involves researching its artifacts, and those artifacts may hold some the greatest clues. Do this by identifying the Body, Mind, and Spirit aspects of the system. It *may* (or not) tell the story we look for. You may not find everything you need, you may find more than you were looking for. I am no historian, or a researcher - but these are my thoughts. I'm just another kung fu guy.

-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Savi,

Thank you for responding. Yes, I have considered that possibility, though it is indeed a slippery sloap (what if it was all recently made up, or what if an older branch saw a recent innovation and incorporated it?) It is, in effect, a pandoras box. The only way around this, so far, is to take branches that split at certain periods and see what they still have in common, it being more likely that the common elements date back to the time of the split than concidentally stemming from identical development since that period.

I think its also important to understand, despite traditional practices of giving faith the the ancestors, that humans aren't replicative machines and that every succeeding generation of master in every lineage has inevitably altered that lineage to one extent or another. So, in addition to "gap" filling, you have the power of evolution and history itself working against you (again, I use the approach in the previous paragraph to help with this).

Choreography is one helpful tool. Signatures (and there are more than are widely known) are another. Hendrik has spoken before about using Tee and Yoong, in their traditional sense, to identify what is a system and then map its subsequent development. This may go beyond movement (which may look similar on the surface) and philosophy (which can be shared in culture beyond MA, and imparted as much by reader as writer), into the actual heart of a system (how it does things, which can be different even if appearing similar).

I would beg your premise, however, on artifacts as you are using the term, in that they seem to me, as with philosophy too easy to find what you are looking for, rather than objective evidence that is, regardless of what you're looking for. So, I suppose for me, the artifacts would be the system itself, but in a less subjective way - it's method (how it works).

BTW - I would very much be interested on your thoughts on the working outline I provided as well as the general ones on the topic. I think theory is great, but we can get lost in it, and the model, whether it prove good or not, might just let us get past the more nebulous discussion and into some of the meat.

Did you get a chance to read the article on the Shanghai Small Knives yet?

[Hsanto]

Rene,

Here is my view. I think there are serval things needs to be getting the DNA.

I am going to present the following topic.
I know some people will not like it and will start attacking me or my lineage. However, that doesn't matter. Because we all has to show evidents and be professional.


I won't say I am the most correct one as usual. I dis- claiming I represent the whole WCK. or the original......

But I can represent what I have found.
Since my lineage is from Yik Kam and Yik Kam is a Chern Tan of Red boat and Cho Soon is a Siu Moo. The conncetion of Yik Kam and Cho Soon might be or might be not applied to other Red boat artists.

However, if anyone's ancestors is working in the red boat, chances is big that they all are from the same group of people such as Lee Man-Mau. We all are the decendent of the first Opera Artist revolution of China. Which we can take pride of.

------------------------------------------------------------------


1, conncetion on Taiping and Hung Mun.


A, It is evidentally that the Yik Kam and Cho family involved in the Taiping.

we can cross Check this:

From the slogan in Dien Chun Tong, The Slogan of Choy Lee Fut. (Since Choy Lee Fut also involved in the Taiping and Hung Mun. )and the Slogan of Yik Kam. (aside of the salutation which involved the Hung Mun saying and the gesture of " Opera Artists" of the Red Boat.) These all point to the connection of Taiping revolution.

In addition, Hung Siew-Chien visited Poon Yee, the location of Cho family the year before the evoke of the Taiping revolution.


Disregard how some one tryies to put down the Yik Kam or Cho lineage.
And some might claiming myth such as-----" the high level people won't write down..."
The above cross check of three different source can proof that it is not that case.

We should invite those who belive thier lineage to be the top leader involved in the Taiping/Siao Dao hui period of revolution to show thier evidents. So they have a good chance to raise thier evident and voice.

I would love to know more about thier evidents that i can learn more about them. So, provide Evident. Under Evident everyone is equal.



B, Hung Mun conncetion before Taiping era

There might be a possibility of Hung Mun connection before the Taiping era. However, one needs to provide evident to proof this possibilities. Until there is an evident which is solid to be cross check. Nothing is certain.





2, The Shao Lin WCK connection.


a, From the stand point of Legend.

According to legend,
The burning of Shao Lin temple is belive to be around early 1700.
After the burning, the monks or nuns fleets and there are five poeple..... It is said that WCK related to Ng Mui and there is monk Chi Sim who is the abbort of Shao Lin...

This is a legend which we don't know it is true or not. However, if one accept Chi Sim exist then one has to accept Ng Mui also exist. Chi Sim cannot exist without Ng Mui. Otherwise this legend will not exist.

Legend also said the Creation of WCK is after the burning of Shao Lin by Ng Mui or Miu Soon. Legend also said, the martial art of Ng Mui is White CRane which she created it is no longer Shao Lin.

If there is a claim of WCK was created at Shao LIn before the burning. There needs martial art DNA Evident to prove WCK was created before the burning of Shao Lin in the Evergreen Hall or Hung Fa Ting.

The exist of any Shao Lin temple in Southern China doesn't automatically represent the Creation of WCK in that Shao Lin or its hall. DNA evident is needed.





b, Tan Sau Ng and WCK

We all know how Tan Sau Ng's connection to the Opera and contribute great things.
However, we need evident to close this gap. we need to compare DNA of Cheung NG's martial art to SLT. Particulary the Tee and Yong. That is the old Chinese way of chatagorized art. One can argue that WCK is the creation of Evegreen Hall of Shao Lin.
That can be true.
But again, Some one has to provide evidents of DNA.

In addition,
White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian exist around 1650.
When does Tan Sau NG or Evergreen Hall created the WCK?
What is the DNA of Tan Sau Ng's art?

It is also illogical to belive there is Tan Sau Ng and Chi Sim exist but Ng Mui is not existing. Again, if Chi Sim exist Ng Mui must exist.
if all of them exist then Tan Sau Ng's art has to be different then Ng Mui even may be Tan Sau Ng might be the great martial artist from Shao Lin.
This is Because, Remeber, in the legend Ng Mui Created the White CRane?
Tan Sau Ng can be the siheng of Ng Mui. They can both from Shao Lin.... But Tan Sau Ng cannot be Ng Mui.
If NG Mui exist then Yim Wing Chun has to exist. Otherwise it doesnt make sense because. Ng Mui is the sifu of Yim Wing Chun right?



C, What SLT was created with

SLT is the core of WCK, the Praise the spring.

We now know WCK share White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian's DNA. Tan Sau is the water shape. PAk SAu is the fire shape.
and we also share the Zee Moo Concept . and the Couplet or two hands combination DNA of White Crane.

As for Yik Kam's SLT, with strong writen and movement evidents.
Yik Kam's SLT was created with White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang. As it was recorded Miu Soon created this. The Yik Kam lineage DNA comparison with 12 zhuang and white crane DNA has proven it is a fact.
This again might or might not apply to other lineage. However, this can be used as a reference if needed.

In addition, Miu Soon also was mentioned in YKS lineage. and Ku Lao (sp?) also admited that thier pole technics is from Emei's Penetrating Cloud Umblela.




(Again, one can said the Yik Kam SLT is a Chop Sue. :D :D
Sure it is a Crane of Fujian and Snake of Emei Chop Sue. If one likes to look at it that way.

However, People who claim different or thier is the complete system should provide the Evident of thier belive. They might be right. But DNA evident is needed.

Otherwise, How can we know it is a Kangaroo and croc Chop Sue from overseas or the Buddha Delight dish from Putian ? :D :D )



4, what language was used:


Language signature can play a critical part in the research.
Chinese always speak thier own dialect and each dialect in the written form has signature.

As an example, the white Crane eng chun's writing was written in Fujian. So, to decide if a certain things are related to White Crane of Fujian or not one can check the language used. Are there any Fujian term?




Again, as a human being, I cannot be perfect and stand for correction.


Hendrik

[Marshdrifter]

Hi Hendrik.
I'm certainly not familiar enough with Wing Chun history/legends
to comment too much on the factual evidence. However, I feel
there's a couple of spots where I'm not too sure of your logic.


This is a legend which we don't know it is true or not. However, if one accept Chi Sim exist then one has to accept Ng Mui also exist. Chi Sim cannot exist without Ng Mui. Otherwise this legend will not exist.

[SNIP]

It is also illogical to belive there is Tan Sau Ng and Chi Sim exist but Ng Mui is not existing. Again, if Chi Sim exist Ng Mui must exist.
In both of these examples, you seem to argue that either the
legend is wholly true or wholly false. This is most likely not the
case. Most oral traditions are a mixture of historical fact and
elaboration. Is there evidence that suggests these legends must
be true or false, but not contain elements of both?

[Eread]

I can't really contribute to this thread, but I'd like to say this is mighty intresting. Keep it up, Rene and the others!

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by Marshdrifter


In both of these examples, you seem to argue that either the
legend is wholly true or wholly false. This is most likely not the
case. Most oral traditions are a mixture of historical fact and
elaboration. Is there evidence that suggests these legends must
be true or false, but not contain elements of both?

Hi,

Good point.

The reason of Chi Sim and Ng Mui have to exist in the sametime are based on " the Five elderly of the Shao Lin " according to Legend.

Certainly, Things can be different.

As you said there needs evident to prove any claim about these Legend and or thier mix. I agree with you.

Hendrik

[Hsanto]

Rene,

I am running across my family documents last night.

Another important element in the search of WCK root.

Medicine.

Since Medicine is very important part of a martial art system. Tracing the Medicine path will also say lots about things. IMHO

Hendrik

[reneritchie]

Hendrik,

Thank you so much for contributing.

For those just joining us, Hendrik Santo sifu's late sifu, Cho Hung-Choy, is the only known individual to have studied under both Cho Chuen (China) and Cho On (Malaysia) as well as Saam Chan, whose family learned from Cho Shun himself. Cho Hung-Choy spent a long time researching WCK's origins back in the 60s and 70s, and entrusted his work to Hendrik to continue. Personally, I appreciate this very much, and hopefully we can get other expert opinions as well involved with this.

Now, I agree with Marshdrifter's point in the sense of pure logical reasoning. Neither A nor B is dependant on the other, thus disproving one does not disprove the other, though I do think it is reasonable to expect some integrity of investigation (if you are going to extend one the benefit of the doubt, there is no reason not to extend the same to the other, and if you are going to doubt or actively try to disprove on, no reason not to try to do the same with the other). Hunt1 has already posted numerous times about the Guangdong MA history which casts doubt on the existance of Jee Shim, and many including Pan Nam have ast doubt on the existance of Ng Mui. However, it should be remembered that neither Jee Shim nor Ng Mui are real names. They are pseudonyms, and thus not likely to appear in records where the real names would (all but undetectable since no one knows them by those names).

This is another area where I think careful, step by step work is needed, and consitency of standards enforced. Even then it might be difficult to prove one way or another (or to disprove a negative, so to speak).

Hendrik - I will get back to you on the rest tomorrow. Unfotunately, time grows short today.

[byond1]

lets see how long this thread lasts!!!! RRRRRRRRRRRR

hendrik-- thanks for sharing!! so what weng chun white crane have you compared against wck? since there are 5 major branchs. i am familiar with the ancestral crane system. i know several sets...which i use as a warm up for my wck.
could you tell us more about the 5 element palms and the sun fist?
could you tell us a bit about emie 12 zhuang? is there a "snake"pattern found in the emie 12? what exactly makes up the emie 12 zhuang system? its internal?

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by reneritchie
For those just joining us, Hendrik Santo sifu's late sifu, Cho Hung-Choy, is the only known individual to have studied under both Cho Chuen (China) and Cho On (Malaysia) as well as Saam Chan, whose family learned from Cho Shun himself. Cho Hung-Choy spent a long time researching WCK's origins back in the 60s and 70s, and entrusted his work to Hendrik to continue. Personally, I appreciate this very much, and hopefully we can get other expert opinions as well involved with this.
Ok, Rene. Now I'm wondering why Complete Wing Chun
doesn't have an index.


it should be remembered that neither Jee Shim nor Ng Mui are real names. They are pseudonyms, and thus not likely to appear in records where the real names would (all but undetectable since no one knows them by those names).

This is another area where I think careful, step by step work is needed, and consitency of standards enforced. Even then it might be difficult to prove one way or another (or to disprove a negative, so to speak).
This is a extremely difficult thing to do, and as is often the case,
even if there was a Ng Mui and you find records of her, you may
not recognize her when you find her.

OTOH, failing to prove (or disprove) anything is not necessarily a
bad thing. Oral traditions can be very important in their own right
and I've heard plenty of people who find significance in the Wing
Chun origin myth regardless of how historically accurate it is.

That all said, while I'm not particularly interested in the veracity
of the origin myth. I really enjoy reading about the history around
the era of the Red Junk group. This has been an interesting
thread.

[Hsanto]

what weng chun white crane have you compared against wck? - B

The classical Eng Chun White Crane from Fujian Eng Chun and it's Classical writing. HS


could you tell us more about the 5 element palms -B

It is not 5 element palms. It is 5 catagories of hand technics.
5 catagories of hand technics consist of 5 different types of potential. This is the basic of White Crane hand technics. -HS


and the sun fist? - B

It is not Sun Fist it is the potential of Sun. -HS


could you tell us a bit about emie 12 zhuang?

Zhuang in the ancient chinese means "way with multi-directions or which can travel to every direction"

So, Emei 12 Zhuang can means the Emei's 12 path way to every direction. . -HS



is there a "snake"pattern found in the emie 12?-B

The Emei 12 zhuang's cultivation is based on soft and gradual or Rou.

this practice will exercesising every joins (or part ) of the whole body and its Qi flow of the related medirians on every movement.

So for every movement, the whole body is linking into one pice and each section of joins (or parts) of the body is adaping and moving softly, gradually, like snake moving. HS




what exactly makes up the emie 12 zhuang system? -B

Emei 12 zhuang is a collection of 12 different sets of training. From the basic mother training, the Heaven set, to sitting meditation.
It is a group of training from moving meditation to sitting meditation. From physical to spiritual, there are nine level of training.

Within the Emei 12 Zhuang there is a Small Zhuang. Which is practicing by standing in an equal shoulder stance for the most part..and pay attention into the details....... HS


its internal? -B

When it exercises and link the physical, the Breathing, the Qi, The visualization , and the intention.
Using Buddha nature as the platform, Daoist natural as the method of training, TCM as the human model, and Esoteric Buddism's Visualization technics as method of mind/intention training.

What do you think we should name it? Internal? external? or it is beyond internal or external?





See, Brian, the heaven is high, the earth is vast, there are lots and lots of "technology" and high civilization developed in Ancient China. We have to learn to be humble to sort all these things out.

I am very glad to luckily found out the Yik Kam SLT based on the 12 zhuang. The reason? SLT has the "technology". Eventhought, it might be apply or not to other lineages.
with the existing link between SLT and 12 zhuang, we know. Advance technology is not just a slogan. It is a fact can be reach. There should be alots of advance people in Red boat beside Yik Kam.
It is not about how great Yik Kam lineage.
It is about what to contribute to all WCK family to make everyone great.

The Bottom line, we all are decendent from the Red Boat Opera Artists who once upon a time are Siheng-dais and put thier life in the line for a better future of China. Sure they sacrified, but their hope for a better future and the dream of be able to Praise the beautiful spring time in a peacefull home is the treasure for all of us.

Personally, IMHO, the origin of root of WCK is not as importand for me. The spirit of positive, hope, and constructive grow is what I hold high.
And Positive, hope, constructive grow is the sping in our heart.
With this, even the coldest winter or the most depressing opium war era doesn't matter. Because with the positive, hope... all will know the future will be and can be better.

It expanded to about a better life and future, beyonds the narrow limit of just a martial art and " I am number one I am the best... type of limited thought.. " that is no self. that is Chan.


As A Chan Patriach wrote :

When Spring returns to earth,
the myriad things are born.
Smashing empty space to pieces.
One is free and at ease.
One will never again become attached.
to self and others.
Althought the Dharma Realm is vast,
one can encompass it all. --- Ven. Hsuan Hua -Hs

[byond1]

!!!!hendrik!!!!...thank you for all the time and energy you put into your answer.....
i understand...."5 potentials" makes more sence....

ive studied the daoists breath and esoteric buddhism...visualization and mudra.....and felt these were ingrediants that many miss from there slt.... many sifu leave out the breath and and the intent.

i can see, that you have found a connection with the emie 12 zhuang and fujian white crane, from your writen information, in yik kam lineage....it adds up and makes sence just from the basic info you shared. of cource to fully understand i need the full experiance of seeing and doing yik kam slt....and emie 12 zhuang. it will take time and effort on all of our parts to determine how this relates to other wing chun and weng chun lineages.

could you please explain further about the potential sun fist?


rene----what about the question asked about complete wc...about nanyang wc?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


A couple of quick thoughts regarding Shaolin and non Shaolin.

I was kind of under the assumption that the 5 elders were to the Chinese as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were to us yet I was always kind of curious if the development of the so-called Five Elders had more to do with the building of the 5 Grand Lodges rather than 5 people? Thoughts?

Next, whenever I look at the so-called Southern Shaolin arts I tend to see many similarities in Body Structure, Form Pattern and Numerology. Looking at many you can see the base form would be something similar to Som Bo Gin or (if memory serves me correctly) as the Crane art refers to the first form as the Vibration set which would be quite similar to the root form of 3 step arrow. Even the Okinawan arts follow these same patterns of numerology and structure. WC does not make use of this root set/concept! Hmmmmm

If Hendrik's info is correct it would make a lot of sense as the root form of SLT (even in WWB's lineage) standing posture would be more similar to the Jam Jong (zhuang) concept of Wang Xiang Zhai's post methods and perhaps Miao Shun's concept would be a similar development with a more Crane influence especially since it was combined with the Ermei Jam Jong. Any thoughts on that Hendrik?


Regards,

[Hsanto]

Hi Jim,

It has to be Zhuang or "the path which can bring one to any direction" ( the translation of Zhuang is classical chinese) to generate the Jings. Not just a horse stance.

And there are certain uniques of White Crane with is a great.. such as the center line .......

Hendrik

[Hsanto]

Hi Brian,

" i can see, that you have found a connection with the emie 12 zhuang and fujian white crane, from your writen information, in yik kam lineage....it adds up and makes sence just from the basic info you shared. of cource to fully understand i need the full experiance of seeing and doing yik kam slt....and emie 12 zhuang. it will take time and effort on all of our parts to determine how this relates to other wing chun and weng chun lineages."

IMHO, may be may be not related It is just another reference and possibilities. right? What we know is something like this exist. That's all. HS


"could you please explain further about the potential sun fist?"

Potential of sun, not sun fist, is one of the oldest potential of White Crane, is similar to sun in the sky where it can adapt to 6 direction of in coming force and shield oneself. The core of SLT's centering.

There is a story of Wang Xian-Cai fighting the White Crane and Draw. IMHO, if that is true. then The potential of Sun should have a great contribution to it.

Today, even alots of White CRane has no longer mention it.
This signature too help to determine before when the set was done...



Hendrik

[byond1]

hi guys!!!

jim---hmmm not sure what you mean about w.c does not make use of this root/set........imo, w.c does make use of many of the root concepts taught in weng chun white crane.....of cource there are differances.....the point , is that white crane contributed 50% at least to the essence of w.c......there was a "mixing: of 2 dna".....many characteristics of the vibrating crane set are reflected in w.c's 3 hand sets........steady jing....for example uses rooting jing, centering jing, and balancing jing ....this will give proper chum....it utilizes the tendons in the leg wraped around the calf/thigh through the abducting of the knees......as well as the sacrum being rolled under to make the spine straight.....which with the squeezeing of the spincter (lower diapram locks )locks the upper/lower body together....what has been modified is the bowing----ala sow hung.....many modern wc dont ustilize the 3 bows or even 1 bow..lol.....i have no idea how many of the wc lineages still keep this body characteristic.....y.m doesnot......
winding jing which is derived from shaking jing ..which is derived from steady jing is the cornerstone of one of the 3 major methods of inch jing.....which has many interesting commonalities with the jing found in chum kiu(yiu lik) and biu tze .....
as well as the fact that very few systems of kung fu use soft/hard jing...white crane is one of the few documented .....w.c uses the soft/hard...and soft variaties of ging........also look at form pattern......weng chun white crane was in san sik form....as could have been w.c originaly ........hhmmm a possibility i think...im not comparing w.c to modern white crane that has the 18 lohan mixed in it with 300 sets..lol.....im talking the ancestral crane sets that transmit jing patterns...as is found in w.c....which gives us the freedom in application.......and the leg gings.......w.c (yks, y.m) use many of the same kicking methods found in white crane.......the common ground is very.....common....lol
we know that as early as mid 1600's inch power was used in taiwan white crane and was reintergrated into the white c5rane of fukian by the..."white crane master of the later period"..mr.b........
body structure is the most important, imo if we are going to look at the jing's. numerology may or may not help......if you took the numbers found in l.j's fatsan forms would there be corispondance with his koolo forms? ...of cource im extremly limited in my knowledge of koolo and most of my understanding has come from you...but.....numerology may be important to one person of one generation and be totaly discarded by the next....and without the specific written info its hard to see, the numbers adding up---for example if wwb forms followed no special numbering and leung jans does....could someone assume that l.j didnt learn from wwb....? sure .....and with a serious limit on our abilities to cross referance transmited knowledge.......

i never looked at the 5 elders as being like santa...but now that you mention it i see what you mean........i think the characters are built around real people though ..as st nick =santa.....lol.....just as i feel miss fong might have inspired the ng mai character....and we kknow miss fong existed as weng chun precenct county records states her existance at around the time tan sao ng traveled to fatsan ..as well as her and her husband (tsang) opened a m.a school in fukian provence and taught white crane



hendrik--what type of stance's does the yik kam slt use??? i know that fa kune uses some sai ping mah and bow and arrow.....


does anyone know what the weng chun sap yat kune....uses for its stance??? pigeon toed or straight? any bow and arrow used...what about shifting???

[Jim Roselando]

Brian,


I think you have confused what I was saying. I am not talking about skills, as all South boxing has similar skills, and that not only includes the Bak Hok but also the Jook Lum etc.. When I talk about the root form I mean the Som Bo Gin. Its characteristics are common among the south fist arts which does include the Vibration form of White Crane and other San Chin arts.

Also, body mechanics do cross check thru South fist arts as there are only so many ways to align your body. Straighten the spin, tuch the pelvis, sow hung, heel-toe more square horse etc. can be found but all have their own unique flavor although WC makes use of it in a way that is a bit different from other arts such as Jook Lum etc..

Numerology has to do with the forms names and not the movements. Som Bo Gin, Sup Bat Dim, Yut Bot Ling Bot, etc. can be found in the southern arts and even the arts that migrated to Okinawa so I always was curious as to why the South fist art of WC did not follow the more common numerology patterns if they were also "supposed" to be Shaolin. Also, most south fist forms tend to work in a cross shape patter and if WC was Shaolin I would be curious to know why didnt it follow this trait.

I am out of time but I hope you get my point. The entire question regards WC being Shaolin or not and these couple of ideas bring up some points as to how can something be direct from Shaolin when all other so called Shaolin share more similarity.


Ok, gotta run.

[byond1]

hi jim........hhhmmmmm.... perhaps it is my limited knowledge of other southern kung fu systems that has me on an incorrect assumption....i wont know until i see other southern systems......\
im not saying w.c is shaolin....im not saying weng chun white crane is shaolin.....i dont know enough about true shaolin to say anything either way.......and i have seen no conclusive evidence to suggest other..
understand what you mean on the numerology....i thoght you meant..108 movements to the jong or 36 points or ect.....well perhaps many things were left out of w.c because that name...or that ordering or.....that whatever... had nothing to do with being able to fight someone ....w.c could really represent the striping down to basic principle .......a mother only gives so much to her son...the father gives just us much.....so you could end up with a facelift and not look as pretty as mother did.......lol
the jing is the key to figuring it out, imo.....as i mentioned white crane is one of the only arts to list soft/hard jing as its main method.....and w.c does as well....i dont think this is a fluke....
b

[yuanfen]

numerology is ubiquitous in TCMA- not just in Southern systems.
I once wrote an article on this for IKF. In any case not just
WC- forms in Ip man's attempt to organize involves 108...but
3s are sam pai fat--- and in some lines organize things by numbers too...IMO does not necessarily show a martial connection with other styles- just organizing habits in many TCMA.
Chen lao jia and Yang old form has 108 motions, 18 hands of lohan....
broad cultural habits and narrow gauge causal links are two quite
different things.

[Phenix]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by byond1


hendrik--what type of stance's does the yik kam slt use???

Starts similar with the 12zhuang..... Equal shoulder.....
transforms as needed... to clamp the yang and raise the ying.. then .... as it is....


Becarefull, Zhuang and Horse stance might or might not be the same things....

Revisit Jim's post and my answer to him....



"i know that fa kune uses some sai ping mah and bow and arrow....."

which fa kuen?
how many Fa kuen are there in WCK?
Why is it a WCK?
Some says it is the origin from Shao Lin
some says it is the teaching of Ng Mui.


some did it as CLF
some did it as Hung Kuen....

I don't see there is a kuen,
I don't see there is a stance.
There are only flower of the tide Under the traveling red boat
according to Cho Dak Sheng...


Hendrik

[Phenix]

Originally posted by byond1
..108 movements to the jong or 36 points or ect.....


What if the 36 of SLT related stuffs has to do with 3x the 12 medirians. But not those Buddhist .... Hahaha.


Hey I might be wrong. Only a small detail different view :D


Hendrik

[Phenix]

Originally posted by byond1
what has been modified is the bowing----ala sow hung.....many modern wc dont ustilize the 3 bows or even 1 bow..lol.....i have no idea how many of the wc lineages still keep this body characteristic.....y.m doesnot......




Brian,

some questions...for fun..


"what has been modified is the bowing"

There are Taizhu....
There are white crane....
There are Tashen.....

There also a saying " lowering the head bend the waist the transmision in not advance."

white crane bow?

is it hum hung or sow hung?

How do we know which is which? LOL.




winding jing which is derived from shaking jing ..which is derived from steady jing is the cornerstone of one of the 3 major methods of inch jing.....which has many interesting commonalities with the jing found in chum kiu(yiu lik) and biu tze ..... [/QUOTE]

To vibrate, one end needs to be station, one end needs to... to create standing wave.......


how do you define inch jing?
How do you issue inch jing?





Hendrik

[Phenix]

Jim,

Not the same Jim. :cool:




As it describes, gentlely subdue the enemy, within split of an inch..
Hero is undefeatable, He knows others and others not knowing him....

Find the 6 directions resultant force as in Yee Chuan.
. .....the sun... the silk floating in the sky....the tidal wave in the sea....;)

gentlely subdue ....simple....a vision , an effortless act.... a dream ...a fantasy... or a reality? :cool:

what do you think?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,


While my skill in Yi Chuan is extreme basics I can say that I believe it has to be the reality of a "true" master. Would this not be the essence (or part of the essence) of the teaching of the principle of Sung (let go)? Also, YJKYM would be neutral to blend in any direction but how many can do the above is the bigger question IMO?

Wang Xiang Zhai's refinement of the excess to the root thru its Jam Jong was brilliant. Develop the mind and eliminate thoughts that allow you to be in a sort of void is the only way they feel one can truly subdue/be one with your opponent.

I am still tying to scrath the surface with the Yi Chuan but find it to be an amazing process/concept. Would Miu Shun have the similar idea with his development in your opinion?


Regards,

[yuanfen]

JRsez: Hello Hendrik,
While my skill in Yi Chuan is extreme basics I can say that I believe it has to be the reality of a "true" master. Would this not be the essence (or part of the essence) of the teaching of the principle of Sung (let go)?
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes- but I am far from convinced that Yi Chuan folks have an edge over good wing chun folks as far as "martial applications". Ditto with lots of taichi folks.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy!


Totally agree!


Peace,

[Phenix]

Hi JIm,

"Would this not be the essence (or part of the essence) of the teaching of the principle of Sung (let go)? Also, YJKYM would be neutral to blend in any direction but how many can do the above is the bigger question IMO? " -J

IMHO, once the concept and vision is bring in. The implementation will arise. Then, later all will be able to do it. -HS



"Wang Xiang Zhai's refinement of the excess to the root thru its Jam Jong was brilliant. Develop the mind and eliminate thoughts that allow you to be in a sort of void is the only way they feel one can truly subdue/be one with your opponent."

Sure, Wang spent years on these stuffs after he has experienced lots of different things...or arts.

However, there are things which one cannot past down due to experience limitation of the students. It is a communication transfer data issues. That part usually is a broken link and lost the art. ---HS



"I am still tying to scrath the surface with the Yi Chuan but find it to be an amazing process/concept. Would Miu Shun have the similar idea with his development in your opinion?"


IMHO, there are only a few basic core principle. Yi Chuan describe the power cultivation with the resultant or "fighting" force, Cheng Lik fasion, Chen Man-Ching describe the power cultivation with the swiming in the air, Chen TaiJi describe the power cultivation with the reel silk.... and 12 zhuang or Miu Shun SLT describe the power cultivation with 3 dimentions and 6 polarities.. Everyone uses different models to describe their stuffs.

I see all these are more or less the same stuffs in general with some differences with what they want to achive..or thier uniqueness in thier characteristic. So, there is a general characteristics and a particular characteristics kind of deal.


However, this sure is very different then the idea of just stand there, with two fingers wide between knees.... which is dead static. so there are a break a part with general hard art.

In addition, when some run out of implementation methodology, using Chan or Dao or mysty unclear or double talks or legends.. to cover up the lack of technology. One always can see these if one watch carefully.

I have a chance to meet a few patriachs. Those people are very down to earth in Details people. Even the Chan patriach. Very very detail and down to earth. Very clear. Because it is very clear thus it is simple and natural.


Things are very dynamic stuffs. not static at all.

But dynamic doesn't need a preparation for dynamic and does has to stop the breathing before action... it is crispy, sharp and clean but dynamic and continously natural.. and there is a different between sharp and hard or forcefully muddy.... IMHO -HS

Hendrik

[byond1]

white crane bow?

is it hum hung or sow hung?

How do we know which is which? LOL.

.....lol....sorry...i dont get your joke.....i dont know what you mean by hum hung....




winding jing which is derived from shaking jing ..which is derived from steady jing is the cornerstone of one of the 3 major methods of inch jing.....which has many interesting commonalities with the jing found in chum kiu(yiu lik) and biu tze ..... [/QUOTE]

To vibrate, one end needs to be station, one end needs to... to create standing wave.......

.......sure....what i have been workijng on is my core strength as well as the yiu lik (waist)....loosening my upper diapram and getting it to drop, building chi in my dan tian( had problems and had to back track with my training), pulling up my hui yin/ shincter muscles to seal in chi and lock upper and lower body structure and rooting. i spend alot of time on this...building the chi up at my core.....all of these things are imperative to shaking force....i wave my spine vertically via abdominal wave combined with sunk chest...expand chest....with proper pelvis motion to start the wave......also sai ying sao and "proper"- kuen faat everyday...


how do you define inch jing?

" generating force on a very small curve"

How do you issue inch jing?
...several differant methods ..in general.....contraction and expansion of various muscle groups with proper juen mah torque..with a rubber band effect with my tendons.....the yi....my intention and how i support my motions with chi from my dan tian...instead of using local chi as in hard jing styles.......my pull back is faster...spiral is tighter....its in my timing of how i "whip" my motion that seperates my longer slower wave jing to a tighter penetration faster jing and of cource using straight line mixed with circular..as my context
got to go library close ..now
brian

[Phenix]

Brian,

That is still hard Bow Jing.

This type of Jing will not sustain after a person is over 40. Generally. IMHO

Hendrik

[byond1]

hi hendrik!!.... it is a mixture of hard bow and soft bow......im being more "hard" because im still developing the strength in my ligaments and tendons.....had to proceed slowly because of an old back injury......i agree fully that as i develope i need to be softer.....hard jing is for the young man..which is still am..lol...sort of..lol...

[Phenix]

Originally posted by byond1
hi hendrik!!.... it is a mixture of hard bow and soft bow......im being more "hard" because im still developing the strength in my ligaments and tendons.....had to proceed slowly because of an old back injury......i agree fully that as i develope i need to be softer.....hard jing is for the young man..which is still am..lol...sort of..lol...


hi brian,

In CMA, dominantly, there are only two direction of training. the hard bow or the soft silk. so, if one doesn't get the soft silk. it default to hard bow. nothing wrong with it. personals' choice.

hard bow can train ligament and tendons but it can't train internal organs. soft silk can penetrate from surface to deep inside.