On the fence, need some help....

[red5angel]

Ok, I have been visiting two schools lately, pretty frequently going to both and I need to decide which one to go with. Take a look at these two pages and see what you guys think.
So you know, my goal is competition in a year, haven't decided what sort of competition yet, the school I pick may decide that. Anyway I would appreciate some of your opinions on what you see....some of you can fukk off right now ;)
The experiences I have had at both have been good, the instructors seem on par. One school seems to be a little more heavily into competition then the other, which you would think would make it a shoe in, except the other school has some really awesome facilities and better access to other types of arts, etc....


http://www.mnkali.com/html/index.php

http://www.mmaacombatzone.com/

[Suntzu]

I would go with the better facilities… if everything else was equal… using crap equipment sucks…

[ShaolinTiger00]

Definately the Combat Zone!

Greg Nelson is well known in both Muay Thai and BJJ.

JKD - funny thing either its really good or its almost as bad as kungfu. When you see Eric Paulson's stamp on it, its a good sign.

[yenhoi]

I would go with the first :D

On a related note, I will be testing with Rick Faye on April 5th.

:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

You know, ST, with all the bad-mouthing of kungfu you've been doing lately I'm reminded of back when everyone thought you and Ralek were just different pseuds for the same guy.

Just an observation.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, is he coming to your area?

[yenhoi]

As far as I know he is doing a seminar at the Elk Grove Martial Arts Academy in Sacramento on April 5th while he is on vacation. I guess we are hanging out with him on the 6th, but Im going to the seminar too :eek:

Sacramento is only a few hours from Reno.

[Water Dragon]

Red, I know you didn't ask for it, but I'll say it anyway.

If you are in the St. Paul area, I STRONGLY suggest you visit this man before making any decision. I think you'll be pleasantly (not to mention painfully) surprised.

http://masterginfoonmark.com/

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[red5angel]

cool! He is a very cool guy, I don't know if you have met him before but he really knows his stuff. I sat and watched him teach a police seminar and was really impressed because he encourages them to get into regular training and not just attend seminars.
His facility is the nice one, it has ample room, a weight training area with plenty of equipment, bags, dummies, etc... I am impressed by the way they have things setup. The crowd is mixed, there are some pretty serious students and some not so serious students. I have enjoyed myself the most there, it could be because I went into it already knowing some of the people who train there. The only issue I see is it is like being a kid in a candy store. There is so much there to learn and they have so many guests and seminars that I could see myself having problems focusing.

[red5angel]

WD- hey man, I have been! It's an awesome school and I have recommended it to people locally looking for something more traditionally. I think in the future it will be a school I might end up going to, however, I need to starts seriously training for competition and I think these other two schools are more suited for that.

[Braden]

They seem to have somewhat different stylistic emphases. Which one's curriculum is more what you're after?

I'd go to mnkali myself. They've got panantukan and knife classes which would be fabulous.

[red5angel]

Thats the issue Braden, they both provide what I am looking for. The Kali group has more arts to offer and better facilities, not that the other school has bad facilities. My real personal concern is that I may get distracted by all that other cool stuff they offer, I am easily distracted by shiny things and Apoweyn in a dress.

[Braden]

You could attend both, depending on your schedule and finances.

MNKali offers their kali/knife/panatukan as an individual program. Personally, I would only attend that and grappling if I was in your area, since I'm not interested in muay thai or JKD.

But there's nothing stopping you (other than time and money) from doing MT and BJJ at the other place, and picking up kali at MNKali, for example.

You gotta explain this dress thing to me. :p

[red5angel]

Well, that is what I have been doing the last couple of months basically. The issue is mainly monetary because I pay for each school but don't get to utilize all the time I am paying for since I have to split my time up bewteen two schools, wife and work.

The panatulan is really tempting and it has been a lot of fun. I also have a friend who has been studying there for about 5 years and he is willing to work outside of class on those types of things. My issue with the grappling is that the guy at the other group apparently has some really good credentials, and the guy at the Kali group, while not bad, I don't know a whole lot about at the moment.

Hehe, uh Ap keeps threatening to put on a dress. He claims its how he likes to play paintball because it is "more comfortable and you get a nice breeze when running..."

[Braden]

Ah... yeah, money situations always suck...

I'd _love_ to learn some panantukan (or however you spell it). No one around here teaches them independantly like that though... Seems like it's such a great format. The SE Asian arts often seem to have more similarity with bagua than anything else too.

I splatball in khakis, short sleeves, and running shoes. :D

[red5angel]

Panantukan is very cool and in my opinion and excellent street art. It has some nasty stuff in it.

For the record, I go in BDU's and a pair of comfy running shoes, preferably black. I don't splatball though I airsoft ;)

[Braden]

That's been my impression from what I've seen of it.

Actually, I've often wondered why there's really no one who specialized in panantukan. It usually seems like it's offered as an add-on to JKD/MuayThai/BJJ programs.

[Merryprankster]

If you want to train for competition, go where it's emphasized. That's usually a good idea.

[red5angel]

I agree MP, that's why I am having a hard time deciding ultimately where to go. The second school while not offering all the frills of the first, does definitely emphasize competition.

[fa_jing]

wow - Southern Mantis is remarkably similar to Wing Chun. Much more so than say, a northern style.

[MightyB]

I'd go with the MMA Combat Zone. It looks like they emphasize combat and competition, where the other schools might get a little hung up on tradition. At least in the BJJ and Thai Boxing you'll actually get to practice fighting at a realistic level.

[red5angel]

The other school really doesn't get caught up in tradition or whatever. They are a little less focused on competing, and offer different sorts of classes, not just Muy Thai and BJJ, they also have more equipment and a more liberal attendance policy.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You know, ST, with all the bad-mouthing of kungfu you've been doing lately I'm reminded of back when everyone thought you and Ralek were just different pseuds for the same guy.

While we both agree that kungfu sucks, Ralek was a bjj troll (ironically without being a practicioner) While I am a proponent of all effective combat styles. (and being a practicioner).

Apoweyn, Merry Prankster, Sun Tzu, No_Know, Jowbacca, Lkfmdc, Sanshou guru, & a few others know that I am legit.

[Chang Style Novice]

All I mean is you used to defend kungfu as a feasible combative art option. So, what's changed?

Do you figure sanshou isn't kungfu?

Do you figure sanshou isn't viable?

is there some other possibility that I'm missing?

After watching Alex Gong and Cung Le fight on TV the other night, it sure looked like they were capable of kicking tuchis, and they're young sanshou competitors. IKMFDM (sorry David, I can never get that acronym right) has pretty consistently said that sanshou is real kungfu, and you guys generally seem to have pretty similar perspectives. Maybe you've changed your mind, or maybe you've chosed a different definition of terms that makes it seem like it, but I'm just saying that you don't sound like you used to. What happened that caused that?

[ShaolinTiger00]

While I agree with coach Ross, that sanshou is "real kungfu", traditional kung fu guys have made that word so pitiful, that I want nothing to do with it anymore. I'd rather be called a "kickboxer".

San shou is to kungfu as judo is to jujutsu.

Kungfu = Jujutsu . A conglomerate of hundreds of styles, with no connecting principles flowing thru them. Lack of fighting led to influx of impractical technique

Sanshou = Judo. Analysis and stripping of techniques back down to basic technique with underlying principle connecting them. "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" Training is as modern as possible and tested regularly.

Sanshou like judo modifies techniques so that students can train at 100%. Result= better fighters, better conditioned, and prepared to recieve full force attacks and work through them.

Kungfu's "morals" - Clinging on the coat tails of Shaolin monks. reading scripts of futile aspirations, tea ceremonies and plenty of neo- Confusionism for all. Believing that they are honoring their ancestors. Again very similar to jujutsu and the samurai they worshipped.

Sanshou - like Judo believes strongly in "you and I shining together" much more similar to the actual warriors moral codes. discipline, respect, focus, determination, comraderie etc.

And sanshou's pretty sister "comtemporary wushu". Again taking the analysis of traditional kungfu, finding a central principle (acrobatics, beauty, asthetics) an making it superior.


I may not like the Communists, but I do respect what they did for putting the "martial" back in matrial art of China.

If someone ask me what San Shou is, I will never use the word kungfu, as it would immediately give them the wrong impression.


BTW - sorry to go so far from the Topic.

redangel - Please believe me when I tell you how great Greg Nelson is. Some of the top MMA athletes seek out his training. If you want to know beyond question that you can fight and compete, he's the man to see.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Kungfu = Jujutsu . A conglomerate of hundreds of styles, with no connecting principles flowing thru them. Lack of fighting led to influx of impractical technique

There are connecting principles among them, such as on the Neijia family for example. The "techniques" i do are all for fighting, all basic, all pratical, effective stuff.


Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Kungfu's "morals" - Clinging on the coat tails of Shaolin monks. reading scripts of futile aspirations, tea ceremonies and plenty of neo- Confusionism for all. Believing that they are honoring their ancestors. Again very similar to jujutsu and the samurai they worshipped.

But i train Neijia, what do i have to do with Shaolin :confused:
Scripts? Tea? I drink ice tea that i buy on the supermarket, its good stuff but i used to drink before doing CMA. I dunno about the acentors, my grandparents had already passed away when i was born.

[Chang Style Novice]

Thanks for the response, ST00. I was most curious about what happened. I do hope that someday you will not be ashamed of the name kungfu!

I will now bow out of the thread, and hope that red's got all the advice he needs, since it doesn't seem there's much hope it will return to the topic.;)

[Braden]

"I may not like the Communists, but I do respect what they did for putting the 'martial' back in matrial art of China."

You mean the angry mobs running around killing people who practice martial arts?

Yeah, that was really great.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You mean the angry mobs running around killing people who practice martial arts?

No that is not what I meant and you know it. Don't be such an A$$.

[Braden]

Oh! My bad.

You must mean when they told people how they were and weren't allowed to practice.

That was good too, I admit. Nothing like state control on an artform to get things serious.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You must mean when they told people how they were and weren't allowed to practice.

If they fought like most of you do, then the Commies did them a favor.

You pedantic *****. You know exactly what I meant so stop trying to insinuate differently.

Sanshou stripped kungfu back down to what it should have always been about. - fighting. not the Triad, not Opium, not organized gambling and crime, not chi power, not dim mak, not herbal tonics to increase your jing, not the costume you wear or the title you like to be called, not who your lineage was from, or what temple your masters masters master lived at.

[Braden]

"If they fought like most of you do, then the Commies did them a favor."

That's the problem with state control. It only looks good if you're the one making the decisions.

"You pedantic *****. You know exactly what I meant so stop trying to insinuate differently."

I'm certainly pedantic and I believe I do know what you meant.

I'm trying to get you to realize you're wrong. In my own pedantic little fashion.

"Sanshou stripped kungfu back down to what it should have always been about. - fighting."

Sanshou the format was present in most (all?) the traditional chinese martial arts before the communist revolution. I can quote pre-revolution documents discussing it if you'd like.

Sanshou the martial art using boxing and wrestling isn't stripped down kungfu - it's put together boxing and wrestling.

"not the Triad"

Traditional chinese martial arts were never about the Triad.

"not Opium"

Traditional chinese martial arts were not about opium. And the opium wars were the result of foreign oppression, not a cultural trend of the chinese people.

"not organized gambling and crime, not chi power, not dim mak, not herbal tonics to increase your jing, not the costume you wear or the title you like to be called, not who your lineage was from, or what temple your masters masters master lived at."

Traditional chinese martial arts were never about any of these things.

[cogg]

ST00- Ialso agree that alot of traditionalists have given kung fu a bad name, but how can kung-fu keep a good name if practitioners turn there back on it. I too train San Shou, but dont treat it any different to my kung fu sparring, with the exeption of wearing gloves. The way i see it is that my kung- fu gives me the skills and its up to me to figure out what i can use and well, and go ahead and use it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

cogg, like being called Kano-ryu, the term "judo" gave the art a fresh start.

I'm have no desire to "force" the change on to kungfu people. let them do what they do. just don't associate my style with it. Kano didn;t force jujutsu but as they realized that judo beat them, they all lined up and merged right in.

Braden - sounds like you have caught a case or Revisionist history. that said, I oppose Communism.

[Braden]

"Braden - sounds like you have caught a case or Revisionist history. that said, I oppose Communism."

I encourage you to specify why so I can reply reasonably to this allegation.

I also encourage you to illustrate how, even if you're correct about this, this changes my point regarding your illusions of what traditional chinese martial arts are about. Which was, after all, the original topic.

[fa_jing]

The wierd thing is, I've never seen any Kung fu techniques or training that wasn't useful. Of course I am only familiar with Wing Chun, 7* Mantis and Shuai-Chiao.

Not to say that the traditional training was as complete as possible -- in some cases they could have used more heavy-contact sparring.

But basically, this was geared towards the students.

Now, the whole culture thing could be annoying, as well as the heirarchical nature of the class, as well the teachers making you feel like they are doing some kind of big favor to you just to teach you a technique. In some cases they string you along trying to boost up attendance for financial reasons. It's a business.

But, no qualms with the styles and training methods themselves. Most of my workouts were absolute killers.

[carly]

it seems to be a win/win situation for you whichever you choose. Both seem good choices.
In that case, why not go with the one with the best personality/vibe?

[SevenStar]

all things equal, I'd go to mmaazone for the simple fact that they have a lot of fighters that compete. There's alot of knowledge to be gained there, since you want to compete.

[yenhoi]

A good pointe 7* brings up.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
The wierd thing is, I've never seen any Kung fu techniques or training that wasn't useful. Of course I am only familiar with Wing Chun, 7* Mantis and Shuai-Chiao.



I don't think he means useful so much as probability. There are several techniques that have uses, but are unlikely to ever be used, like a butterfly kick.

[yenhoi]

What is a butterfly kick? Jump in the air and kick two bad guys then rescue the girl?

Also you dont see people training to use those little chinese horse benches anymore right? Train to use pool ques!

:eek: