This one's for you --- Chango

[Hsanto]

Chango,


Great opinions. Thanks.








Maybe your book was written in fujianese becuase of your founders low postion in the family!!
People high up in the ranks of the revolutionary activities would not risk things by having any written words.


-----------------------------------------------
Fact:

A, If one visit Dien Chun Dang in ShangHai, one
can still read the writting of the Siao Dao Hui to Taiping.
Or visit WWW.WingChunkuen.com. Get the Shang hai Connection article and look for your self the writing of Siao Dao Hui.

B, White Crane Wing Chun people joining the Taiping and become one of the King for Taiping.
And, White Crane still has passed down thier art writing back to 1700's.

C, if Shao Lin was banned, How come the Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing writing was preserved?

So, one can see it is a fact that high level Hung Mun writings exist and Kuen Kuit exist. Disregarded of myth.



IMHO, may be the fact is totally contradict to your belief.
It is the High level one who preserve the writing and the code....

The existing of White Crane connection to Taiping and Lee Man-Mau doesn't get White Crane writing destroy right?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it is hobvious this was not a concern of the Cho founder. So this would mean he was not taught the complete system only what he needed to know at the time! Now not having the complete system he would have to mix things here and there. I mean would it not make since that he had to make a chop suey sorta speak becuase he did not have all of the peaces? I mean come on you lump all of your forms into one and call it (SLT) little Idea? Plus he had no problem writing about it during political unrest? So how important could he have been to the preservation of the art? It just does not add up. say what you like. Cheun Ng was written about by non martial artist as having high skills and ranking amoungst the red boat troupe and Hi martial skills. can we say the same about Yik KAm?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Good opinion about Cho's or Yik Kam's art.
However, if you are serious trying to investigate in. I have post the 8 catagories of topic in other post. Ask around and check around objectively. with even different style like Chen TaiJi people.....or old chinese martial art Scholars... see what they will tell you. Get second opinion right?





Chango, think. and doing your home work.
You are not a bad guy. I can argue and disagree with you all but I don't think you all are bad guy. people get attach and make mistake and attact .... but think.

It is ok to discuss here in the forum because all is WCK brothers.
What if all these Myth you belive doesn't add up in front of other style? It is going to look real bad.

You love WCK and your sifu and your lineage. That is understandable. Don't pull the reverse gear for yourself and your lineage.

It is always easy to see you sink and then laught at you. But I choose not. and honest word always against ears as chinese said.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[reneritchie]

Actually, society *leaders* were exactly the ones that wrote down their information. Handing down their registers, then, became the way they handed down leadership of their society, much as martial artists sometimes did with Kuen Po (Boxing Records).

Don't take anyone's word for it, though, go do some research. You can start with Tiandihui by Dian Murray. Remember, on the internet, anyone can say anything, so be media saavy and make sure you're getting good quality info.

BTW - Am I correct in assuming the VTM does not support the insulting and slandering of an entire lineage and it's founder? They have been quite vocal in their demands for respect for Chi Sim recently, hopefully they will be equally as concerned with this attack against Yik Kam and the Cho line, including the bungling of the translation for their core set.

[Geezer]

This Was Found Some Time Ago On The History Channels Website

Triad Society, name given to a number of Chinese antidynastic secret societies by 19th-century Western observers. Most of these groups claimed descent from the Heaven and Earth Society (Taendi hui) or the Triad Society (Sanhe hui), two secret societies of the late 17th cent. that had originated in Fujian prov. The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch'ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast. In times of peace the secret societies functioned as fraternal organizations, but they often became involved in criminal activities and at times armed conflict with rival groups occurred. Poor peasants, itinerant workers, and others who lacked strong kinship ties found security in the fraternal ties and in the protection offered by the societies. The Taiping Rebellion (1850-64) brought a revival of secret-society militancy and anti-Manchu sentiment, but local groups continued to function independently and no hierarchic organization was achieved. Branches of the Triads assisted Sun Yat-sen and other revolutionaries to carry out armed insurrection against the Ch'ing dynasty in the decade before the republican revolution of 1911. The Communist government of China launched (1949-50) a campaign to eliminate secret societies soon after assuming power. Triad societies persisted outside mainland China and among overseas Chinese. For the activities of secret societies in N China during the Ch'ing period, see White Lotus Rebellion; Boxer Uprising.

[Geezer]

The Hung Society
The Model for many later Chinese secret societies including today's tongs and triads.

by Peter Huston





It was only relatively recently in Chinese history, within the past five hundred years or so, that relatively modern secret societies (distinct from religious cults) became widespread. Although there was a great deal of variation from time to time and place to place, these tended to follow common, culturally prescribed patterns.




The Structure and Organization of a Hung society branch


During the Ching dynasty (1644-1911 A.D.) two styles of secret society became prevalent. By style we are referring to a certain set of organizational structures, carefully preserved traditions and patterns of behavior which their members were expected to follow. The first of these, the Hung society, was most common in the south. As most overseas Chinese came originally from the southern provinces of Fujien (Fukien) or Guangdong (Canton), this is also the style of secret society most commonly seen outside of China, including in North America or South East Asia. The term "Hung" means Red, but it is also a ****nym for the Chinese word for "brave." Although Hung societies continue to exist today, they are often modified in various ways. Furthermore, although it might not be exactly correct, since we are discussing the original version of the Hung societies for simplicty and clarity this chapter will use the past tense, except when referring to something that specifically refers to the present.
The second common variety of secret society are the Ching or "Green" societies. These are based on a style more common originally in the North of China. The Ching societies will be covered in full in a later chapter.

The basic unit of the Hung society was the lodge or local branch. It was to the local branch that the members of a sworn brotherhood owed their primary loyalty. This is the group that held meetings and from time to time called together members of the society. In some locations, there existed higher levels of organization, but these had limited duties. These "headquarters branches" or "master lodges" (as some texts call them) would not normally interfere in the day to day running of the local chapters of the society. Although members of these headquarters branches tended to be old and respected members of the sworn brotherhoods, they were chosen by the majority decision of the senior officials of the local branches. It is believed that generally their role among the local chapters was quite limited and consisted primarily of arbitrating inter-chapter disputes so as to avoid needless and unprofitable inter-chapter conflicts. In some places and times, the headquarters branch had strict regulations preventing all but themselves from starting additional branches of the Hung society. At other times, however, just the opposite was true and anyone familiar with the rituals of the Hung society could start a new branch any time they were able to recruit sufficient followers.

Footnote One Although a society member would see those in other chapters as people who he had a great deal in common with and should help if possible, it is important to remember that the Hung society organizations were primarily local institutions based in a particular place and time. At times, the local chapters of a society might work together to accomplish certain goals or aid one another, but it must be understood that the local groups were generally only loosely united, if at all. During times of national crisis or a large scale uprising of some sort, the groups might combine forces. Nevertheless, when this occurred it was not uncommon for there to be a great deal of difficulty or friction over the process of choosing a combined leader. Often this proved impossible and Hung society uprisings were frequently spasmodic disorganized affairs which bore more resemblance to a widespread riot or prairie fire than they did to a military operation.

For example, in Guangdong province in 1854-1855, a Hung-style organization known as the Red Turbans rose up in revolt against the Ching government. Although this was a widespread uprising which spread across several counties and involved tens of thousands of people fighting in some battles the rebels never developed a centralized leadership. Footnote Two Similarly, even during the large turn of the century Boxer uprising, effective centralized leadership of the Boxers proved to be a problem. Footnote Three

Even the members of the so-called headquarters branch saw themselves primarily as members of their local chapter rather than as members of a larger organization. In fact, this localized aspect of the institution may have been one of the key reasons why the societies spread so quickly and easily. Frequently, the loose organizational structure made it surprisingly easy to start a branch of the society. No centralized permission was needed, merely a knowledge of the oaths and rituals and the desire to do so. This cell-like structure meant that if one branch died, became exposed to authorities or were otherwise destroyed there was little effect on other branches. No single individual could betray the entire organization, because no single individual had the ability to do so.

Clearly, it is entirely incorrect to see the many secret societies of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as a single, large, centrally controlled organization held under the sway of a tyrannical despot who ruled from hiding. Not only did the technology prohibit attempts to control the geographically widespread societies in such a fashion, there was little benefit to the group as a whole from such centralization.

In many ways, the headquarters branch of the organization was not really a headquarters at all, but instead more of an "inter-branch council." Any levels of organization above this tended to be highly dependent on the personalities of the people involved. Individuals might arrange for cooperation among the different chapters for a limited amount of time or a limited enterprise, but this level of organization was not a normal aspect of secret societies. These alliances would be more dependent on the power, ability, experiences, levels of respect, or even favors owed, of the individuals involved, rather than their official ranks within the organization.

The details of the physical meeting site of the lodge or branch could vary widely. If a society existed in a place where it was legal, it could own property or even own an elaborate temple. When a tong was outlawed, as many were in the former British Crown Colony of Malya, it might simply hold intricate initiation rituals in jungle clearings or other secluded outdoor locations. Lookouts were posted to ensure secrecy and provide warning in the event of a police raid.

Ward and Sterling, writing from the early 1920s, have left us with a detailed description of the Hall run by the "Ghee Hin Society" in Singapore in the late nineteenth century when the organization was legal and flourished openly. (It was later banned in the colony of Singapore.) The hall was located at number 4, China Street and apparently had two stories. As Ward and Stirling's book is virtually impossible to obtain today, and the description is rather interesting, it seems worth quoting from at length:


"Upstairs, attached to the wall, was a shrine containing the tablets of the Five Ancestors, (note: prominent characters in the legend of how the Hung society was founded.) and before it a table on which was an incense burner with incense. In front of this first altar stood another, on which was a second tablet with the incense burner dedicated to the late brethren, and over this hung a red lamp, i.e. the 'Hung Lamp.' On either side were two chairs. One for the Master and the other for the Instructor or White Fan. Along the wall on either side were ten chairs for other officials.

The temple, or lodge room, was square and had four gates; -north, east, south and west, -and on the uprights and the lintels were written verses as follows:-


On the Eastern Gate,
'To the East where the element of wood stands it is difficult to go,

Sun, Moon, mountains, and streams all come from the Eastern seas.'

On the Southern Gate,

'The fiery road to the element of fire is hot,

But in the distance Chang, Ts'uen, P'ing and Nankin it is cold.'

On the Western Gate,

'On the narrow road of the element of metal you must be careful,

Of the two paths it is clear that there is no impediment on the one which leads to the West.'

On the Northern Gate,

'At the sign of Yin-kui the water is deep and difficult to cross,

But in Yun-nan and Sze-Chuen there is a road by which you can travel.'




On the top of each door was a pavilion, surmounted by a calabash, which was an emblem carried by one of the Eight Immortals. (note: The Eight Immortals are prominent characters in Taoist mythology and ancient Chinese literature.)
The walls were decorated with squares and triangles, and over the various Gates were hung different types of weapons. The stones at the bottom of the wall and the boards of the gate were made to look like dragons' scales. In the middle of the Hall were three gates, one in front of the other, and beside each gate two men were stationed who wore red kerchiefs on their heads and carried swords in their hands.

[Geezer]

Beyond these gates stood the Hall of Fidelity and Loyalty, within which was the genealogical table of the Founders of the League, which stood in a shrine called Khao-khi, after the famous temple.... (note: At this point, Ward and Stirling recount the entire lineage of the society as described in the genealogical charts on the Lodge wall. We have deleted this information.) On either side of the names of the Great Founders is placed two sets of characters. On the right side as you face the tablet appear the words.




'Yin and Yang united produce everything by metamorphosis': and opposite on the left,
'Dragons, tigers, tortoises and snakes are assembled!'

Below these, in a line with the Five Tugers Generals, on the right hand side appears,

'Kin-lan Hall, The Spirit seats of the successive generations of our kindred,'

And opposite, on the other side,

'Mwan-thao Hall. The ancestral seats of the successive generations of our kindred.'




Downstairs was the common meeting Hall or place of worship, and it was usually here that the picture of the God Kwan Ti was displayed. It was in this room that the Master communicated the traditional history previous to admitting the candidates into the Lodge."
Footnote Four

As the description illustrates, the lodges of the Hung societies were intended to be much more than a simple meeting place. Instead, they were designed to emphasize the proud traditions and heritage of the groups, as well as remind members of the mystical aspects of these teachings. In fact, much of the writings on the wall refer to aspects of the traditional legend of the founding of the Hung society. (This legend will be repeated and discussed in the next chapter.)

Today, in most major North American cities which have a Chinatown it is possible to find the headquarters of the tongs, themselves branches of the Hung society. To someone familiar with their names and able to read the Chinese characters, these buildings are clearly marked. Many of them are quite elaborate in their architecture. (See photo 10-2 of a Tong headquarters in New York City.)

Today in Hong Kong, membership in a Triad society (and the triads are descendants of Hung societies) has been outlawed and it is illegal to conduct Triad initiation ceremonies within Hong Kong's borders. For this reason, many of the initiation ceremonies of the Hong Kong Triads are held in nearby Macao and the groups meet in hiding.

Footnote Five
THE STRUCTURE OF A HUNG SOCIETY BRANCH-

The Hung society structure is intended to emulate a family of sworn brothers. In China, however, it should be remembered that not all brothers are neccessarily equal. Although family members are supposed to love one another and live in peace and harmony, they are not equals. The Chinese family is hierarchial in nature. The older brothers are seen as more important than the younger brothers. The younger brothers are supposed to be obedient towards the older brothers. This respect for elders, even elder brothers, is a key component of Confucian teachings. Elders, after all, are perceived as having superior wisdom, and therefore society benefits when the younger members of society obey and respect them. In return for this obedience, it is expected that the elders and superiors will rule with wisdom and compassion keeping the best interests of their inferiors and society at large in mind at all times.

It follows that although the Hung society is intended to be an organization composed of sworn brothers, it does not mean that it is an organization of equals. Far from it. There is a definite hierarchy and organizational structure within a Hung society type organization. Table 10-1 shows the organization of a local branch of the Hung Society Headquarters or Major Lodge. Table 10-2 reveals the composition of the local branch. As can be clearly seen, there was a definite structure to the organization. This structure led to division of tasks as well as a definite system of ranks and officers. Although there were many variations on the basic structure, just as there were many off shoots of the group in many places and times, this standard structure or some close variant was common to most Hung society groups.

Each headquarters branch had a leader. Underneath the leader were two of the most important officers in the group. These were the Incense Master and the Vanguard. Although these two officers were of equal rank, their duties differed, and therefore friction, competition and conflict between them was minimized. Together they were charged with the organization and performance of all initiation and promotion ceremonies. Together they were charged with the organization and performance of all initiation and promotion ceremonies.

The Incense Master was essentially the high priest of a Hung society. As such he was charged with the responsibility for the proper performance of all ceremonies and rituals. The Vanguard's duties were slightly different. Although he had priest-like duties, his primary concern was administrative. He was charged with the responsibility of overseeing the expansion of the society and ensuing that such expansion happened in a manner that would be in the long term best interests of the group. In accordance with these responsibilities, he was the only member of the society who could establish independent branches without the consent of the leader. In at least some societies, the Vanguard was also responsible for the storage of all weapons owned by the society.

Underneath these three key officers, there were five primary officers in a Master Lodge. Each of these had specific responsibilities and duties. These three officers, the Leader, the Incense Master, the Vanguard and the heads of each of the five key sections totaled eight in number. In traditional Chinese mysticism and numerology, described more fully later in this chapter, both the numbers five (as in the five divisions) and eight (as in the eight officers) had great significance. Within the Ko-Lao Hui (the Elder Brothers Society), a secret society that used and modified many of the Hung society institutions, these eight officers were referred to as the Lodge of the Inner Eight. Footnote Six In other organizations, it seems that these eight officers did not have such an elaborate designation, but they were quite respected and their duties essential to the continuing function of the organization.

Much of this information comes from W.P. Morgan, a sub-inspector in the Royal Hong Kong Police whose landmark work, Triad Societies in Hong Kong, came out in 1958. According to Morgan, the officers in the headquarters branch were chosen by majority vote from among the senior officials of the various local bodies. These officials not only had the ability to choose these officers, they also had the power to remove them from office if they were unsatisfied with their performance. It should be noted that such a structure, with the underlings able to remove their superiors when dissatisfied, is contrary to many stereotypes and would contribute to a much looser pattern of behavior and control than many would suspect.

These eight officers were not the only members of the headquarters group of a secret society. They would also have a variety of assistants and others to help them fulfill their duties and complete their jobs successfully.

The five administrative divisions were based on function, and for this reason some, naturally, had more personnel than others. The leader of each divisions was a Senior official who, although of high rank, was underneath the group's Leader, Incense Master, and Vanguard. These were the General Affairs section, the Recruiting section, the Organization section, the Liaison section, and the Education section. The five divisions are shown on Table 10-1.

The General Affairs section was responsible for the routine, day to day matters necessary for the well being of the organization.

The Recruiting Section was responsible for not just recruiting and related duties, but also official communication with the outside world. Recruitment included the registration and investigation of new members. Among other duties were writing and spreading propaganda. This section was also responsible for social interaction with the world outside of the group. Ward and Stirling mention that in Malaya the recruiters were referred to as "Horse Leaders," although they do not state why. Footnote Seven

Having a special section whose duties included social interactions with the ordinary public and recruiting showed a great deal of sophistication. These are exactly the places where many underground organizations go wrong and find themselves at odds with the authorities. An underground organization that has lost the respect or support of the ordinary people around it, will not last long. Equally importantly, a secret society that hastily recruits the wrong sort of people will soon find all of its secrets spread far and wide by talkative recruits. Nevertheless, it cannot be assumed that such an organizational structure always existed. Morgan was writing in the late 1950s in the sophisticated cosmopolitan center of Hong Kong. Dian H. Murray, a historian at Notre Dame University, studied the early days of the Tiandi Hui (the Heaven and Earth Society), one of the most prominent and influential of the Hung societies, and discovered that, in fact, the organizations eighteenth and early nineteenth century recruiting practices were rather haphazard. It was only when the organization was at its most sophisticated that it could hold firm to this structure. In the early days, or in places where the group was young and being spread quickly and rapidly by inexperienced members, often the recruiting section did not exist. Recruiting and starting new branches was a job any member could undertake at whim. Footnote Eight

[Geezer]

The Organization section was responsible for controlling the activities of the branch societies, as necessary. Among its duties were controlling the various branches and inflicting punishments, when required, on members or non-members. When major combined operations were undertaken, they were controlled by the members of this headquarters branch.

The Liason section was charged with carrying out communications between the headquarters branch and the member branches. At times, the members of the liason section had special names, among them being "grass sandals" or "night brothers." Footnote Nine

The Education and Welfare branch was charged with the maintenance of schools set up by the society for educating its members children. It was also responsible for general welfare duties, including funeral arrangements for members and their families. Funerals and burials have an extremely important place in traditional Chinese culture. Among Chinese tongs in America, often one of the most important services to members was the way in which they would preserve the remains of their members and ensure that they received proper burial in China. This changed only when the Communists seized China and put an end to the practice (as well as interfering with the practice of many Chinese funerary traditions.)

Although each local lodge had its own officers and organizational pattern. Nevertheless, these tended to follow the same pattern of five divisions as seen in the headquarters or master lodge. The chief leader of the lodge was a leader or deputy leader. Each division, or department, also had its own leader. In 1950s Hong Kong, all of these leaders were chosen for fixed periods of time and replaced at the end of their term by fresh appointees. As the duties of each of the five divisions of the branch are quite similar to those of the headquarter's branches, there is no need to repeat them in detail here. The important thing to remember is that the headquarter's officers were supposed to coordinate large scale matters, while the local lodge members were supposed to coordinate things which concerned their own lodge.

One key difference, though, lay in the structure of the local branch's organization section. At the local level, this division was expected to control a number of "fighting sections." Each fighting section consisted of ten to fifty members under the control of a "Hung Kwan" official. The number of these fighting sections could vary widely and together they composed the organization's de facto army.




-RANKS AND NUMEROLOGY.


There was a great deal of mystical significance in many of the details of the structure and terminology used by the Hung society. Within the hierarchy of the organization, each rank had several names and a number. These numbers had a special meaning. For example, a leader was also known as a "4-8-9" while a regular member was known as a "4-9". These titles were pronounced as a series of digits, not as a single number. I.E "four, eight, nine", not four hundred eighty nine, or "four, nine", never "Forty nine."

The significance of these digits comes from a variety of sources. The first is something known as "the Magical Number Square", illustrated in Table 10-3. This table is quite important in Chinese Numerological teachings. The numbers can be added together in any sequence, be it diagonally, vertically or horizontally, and the result will always be fifteen. This has been considered to be magically significant.

Secondly, within Chinese numerology, each individual digit has a special significance. Some numbers are considered to be quite lucky while others are said to be rather ominous or unlucky. Chinese cosmology teaches that it is desirable whenever possible to have a balance between Yin, the passive aspect, and Yang, the dynamic, active aspect of things. All odd numbers are considered to be Yang. Conversely, all even numbers are considered to be Yin. Certain combinations of digits are considered to be particularly desirable and fortunate. These lead to a proper balance of Yin and Yang, as well as a beneficial combination of the digits with their underlying meaning. Some of these digits are more auspicious when used in certain combinations. The numbers used as titles for the Hung society ranks conform carefully to this belief. For instance, every number begins with four which is even or Yin. In every case, this is followed by a Yang or Odd number.

When the number four is pronounced in most Chinese dialects, it is a ****nym for the word for "death" or "die." It is therefore avoided whenever possible and not normally used much by Chinese. For instance, many Chinese hotels do not have a fourth floor, as few Chinese would wish to stay on it. This is similar t the Western practice of skipping the thirteenth floor. In fact, in places like Hong Kong, it is not uncommon for some hotels to skip both the fourth and the thirteenth floor in their numbering.

Perhaps the use of the ominous number four contributes to the Hung society mystique. Footnote Ten

The Link

http://www.capital.net/~phuston/hung.html (http://)

[yuanfen]

"VTM members applaud Rolling_Hand for attacking some people when one of the people he routinely attacks is Augustine Fong, listed on the VTM site as a technical advisor".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the best of my knowledge Master Fong is not a technical advisor to the VTM.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Please take your personal discussion off forum.

[reneritchie]

Sandman2[WingChun] - While I have nothing personal to discuss with Sheldon, in the interest of the forum and to spare some of my own time, I will refrain from being drawn into these threads again, as best I can.

Joy - Fong sifu is listed as a technical advisor in the right hand column between David Peterson sifu and John Crescione sifu - http://home.vtmuseum.org/information/committee/index.php

[Geezer]

1. The bulk of this material comes from a few primary sources. Morgan's Triad Societies of Hong Kong.(1960, Crown Copyright Reserved, The Government Printer, Hong Kong) is an excellent source for information on the structure and form of Triad societies in Hong Kong shortly after the second world war. (The author asserted that these traditions were in decline during the period he wrote and researched the subject.) Unfortunately, Morgan tends to skimp a bit on the development of this form.

Ward and Stirling's The Hung Society. (privately published, London, 1925.) contained the best possible description of the societies available to the authors. This was based on extensive research done during their stint as civil servants in the Crown colony of Malaya.

Dian H. Murray, in collaboration with Qin Biaoqi, produced The Origins of the Tiandihui -The Chinese Triads in Legend and History. (1994, Stanford University Press, Stanford California). This valuable work contains little information on the later form of the societies, but it does contain invaluable information on how they were founded and spread. This source describes the early, haphazard recruiting practices which had apparently been changed by the time Morgan wrote.

[yuanfen]

Rene- Fong sifu does not play on the internet...does not align himself with factions in wing chun...
and I repeat--- to the best of my knowledge- he is not a
"technical advisor" as listed. I dont think that whoever is doing the website for the VTM should have Fong sifu listed as a technical advisor. I would hope that VTM members would urge whoever is the webmaster to create a meaningful and credible list of titles and advisors on their web page and avoid marketing jabberwocky.

joy chaudhuri

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene Ritchie wrote:

"VTM members applaud Rolling_Hand for attacking some people when one of the people he routinely attacks is Augustine Fong,"
----------------------------------------------------------

To the best of my knowlege Rolling_Hand has never said anything bad about Sifu Augustine Fong. As a matter of fact, Rolling_Hand thinks highly of Sifu Fong's student like Randy Williams. Sifu Williams is also a very good person.

>>Personal Attacks removed.

Sandman, I have all my respect for this man. He's been trying very hard to keep our WCK brothers and sisters in peace.

Have a good SNT to everyone!

[Chango]

>>Chango,
>>Please do not repost and reply to postings that I have deleted.
>>Thank you,
>>Sandman2[Wing Chun]


Rene and Hsanto


Hsanto wrote:So, one can see it is a fact that high level Hung Mun writings exist and Kuen Kuit exist. Disregarded of myth.
IMHO, may be the fact is totally contradict to your belief.
It is the High level one who preserve the writing and the code....

Rene:Actually, society *leaders* were exactly the ones that wrote down their information. Handing down their registers, then, became the way they handed down leadership of their society, much as martial artists sometimes did with Kuen Po (Boxing Records).


LOL! Boys I did not say that there was not writings from the higher up in the Societies. I simply stating that oral tradition was used by those suspected of revolutionary activities. Hsanto is very much ready to assume that becuase cho had White crane and other influences that all WCK has also. I'm simply saying this as fact Cheung Ng has been credited by non martial arts as the leader or in some cases the founder of the red boat troupe! Living quarters for opra heads noted as Green dragon and white tiger areas! Last I checked this was shaolin.

So let's see fellas-
Cheung Ng "founder or leader"
Yik Kam's "active member" let's stretch it a bit from your info
"higer up member or actor"

Homework time!!
Ok say slow with me fellas "leeea-der" uhemm! "fffounder" that means top person! no matter what language you translate it to.

[reneritchie]

Chango,

I'm going to avoid any and all personal debate with you. You're right, what you do is your business. WRT the rest, White Tiger and Green Dragon, to the best of my knowledge, are not Shaolin symbols but symbols that exist in the culture itself beyond Shaolin. For example, they can be found in Feng Shui (geomancy). Cheung Ng didn't found the Red Junk Company, but may have founded the Precious Jade Flower Union (it is difficult to assertain if the terms ascribed him are genuinely for a founder or at used in high reverence for the impact he had on the company and union). One of the remarkable things about the Societies, however, was that they didn't use the same class/age hierachy as normally found in Chinese society. They were non-elite, and a younger, lower-class member could just as easily be a the leader as an older, higher-class member. Also, please remember that Yik Kam lived some 100+ years after Cheung Ng, and also remember the leader of the opera troupe was not always the leader of the rebel movement within it, each having its own hierarchy.

Sheldon,

Same as for Chango, especially in light of the moderators request, which I respect. Vegetarian cults are by no means modern in China and existed during the same period as the Tiandihui. You can find information about them the aforementioned books

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

One of the remarkable things about the Societies, however, was that they didn't use the same class/age hierachy as normally found in Chinese society. They were non-elite, and a younger, lower-class member could just as easily be a the leader as an older, higher-class member.

Quote From Previous Post,

The Hung society structure is intended to emulate a family of sworn brothers. In China, however, it should be remembered that not all brothers are neccessarily equal. Although family members are supposed to love one another and live in peace and harmony, they are not equals. The Chinese family is hierarchial in nature. The older brothers are seen as more important than the younger brothers. The younger brothers are supposed to be obedient towards the older brothers. This respect for elders, even elder brothers, is a key component of Confucian teachings. Elders, after all, are perceived as having superior wisdom, and therefore society benefits when the younger members of society obey and respect them. In return for this obedience, it is expected that the elders and superiors will rule with wisdom and compassion keeping the best interests of their inferiors and society at large in mind at all times.

Now what you've written doesn't make sense:confused:

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
White Tiger and Green Dragon, to the best of my knowledge, are not Shaolin symbols but symbols that exist in the culture itself beyond Shaolin. For example, they can be found in Feng Shui (geomancy).
Are you saying just because these symbols may predate Shaolin, that they do not symbolize Shaolin as well?

-Savi.

[Chango]

I think if we go back earilier in the thread we will see that I did not make the first reference to Cheung Ng and Yik Kam. It was Hsanto who did that RR! I never said that they lived together I just brought to light the status of each. I find it quite funny how you question the obvious but with out seeing and understanding I can only expect this from you. (insert smile) We will agree to just disagree!



Geezer- I know you are into guns and things concerning the military. I just seen a great history speacial the did a small piece on the Royal Marines man those guys are tough!!! talk about hard core!! have you ever met one in person? Off list me. we can talk I'm very interested.

[Geezer]

Chango Wrote>

I just seen a great history speacial the did a small piece on the Royal Marines man those guys are tough!!! talk about hard core!! have you ever met one in person?

Two of my Great Uncles are retired Royal Marines, I'll offlist you:)

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Hi Savi,


Are you saying just because these symbols may predate Shaolin, that they do not symbolize Shaolin as well?

Shaolin may or may not have used them as symbols, but it's roughly akin, IMHO, to a robin being a bird but not all birds being a robin. If the symbol predates Shaolin, or is extent in the culture beyond Shaolin, then if someone or something used the symbol it cannot in and of itself be evidence of Shaolin. To use it as a Shaolin connection, then, you would first have to establish that Shaolin in fact used those symbols (probably easy since they were extent) and second that their use on the Red Junks (or whereever) could not have come from another source (probably difficult for the same reason). Not sure if I explained that well?

Chango,

Again, I'm happy to discuss any WCK related issues with you but will refrain from personal ones. On the status, what do you base your assessment on? Again, status in the opera and among the rebels were different things. Do you know what Yik Kam's was to make the comparison?

RR

[Chango]

Rene,
Thank you for catching my mistake about Cheung Ng founding the Red boat soceit. I actually had my mind on the time period from which Yik Kam came from.

Rene wrote: Again, I'm happy to discuss any WCK related issues with you but will refrain from personal ones. On the status, what do you base your assessment on? Again, status in the opera and among the rebels were different things. Do you know what Yik Kam's was to make the comparison?


Again I was responding to Hsanto's comparison! Not one of my own. But to spell it all out Cheung Ng was the "founder" of a society known to have revolutionary activities. Yik Kam was just a "member" or an actor of the opra troupe. You will find that a member and someone being a founder are two really different roles! that's it my friend nothing more nothing less.

Chango (Saat geng sau)

[Geezer]

Quote>

Rene Wrote>


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the remarkable things about the Societies, however, was that they didn't use the same class/age hierachy as normally found in Chinese society. They were non-elite, and a younger, lower-class member could just as easily be a the leader as an older, higher-class member.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote From Previous Post,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Hung society structure is intended to emulate a family of sworn brothers. In China, however, it should be remembered that not all brothers are neccessarily equal. Although family members are supposed to love one another and live in peace and harmony, they are not equals. The Chinese family is hierarchial in nature. The older brothers are seen as more important than the younger brothers. The younger brothers are supposed to be obedient towards the older brothers. This respect for elders, even elder brothers, is a key component of Confucian teachings. Elders, after all, are perceived as having superior wisdom, and therefore society benefits when the younger members of society obey and respect them. In return for this obedience, it is expected that the elders and superiors will rule with wisdom and compassion keeping the best interests of their inferiors and society at large in mind at all times.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now what you've written doesn't make sense

Rene, I think you missed this post, what is your thinking on the information I posted and what you said about Secret Societys:confused:

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Hi Sheldon,

Let me try to explain again. There was a hierarchy within the society, but it was not the traditional one of class and age. So, unlike other cultural organizational forms, an "elder brother" in a society would not necessarily be of higher class or chronological age than a "younger brother". Does that make more sense? If not, and apologies for sounding like a broken record, any of the half-dozen or so scholarly books on the period can probably explain it more expansively.

[reneritchie]

Hi Chango,

We may just be talking past each other. Cheung Ng wasn't the founder of any known/documented society or cell thereof. He was the founder of, or one of the greatest influences of, an opera company. Though he was rumored to have been a rebel from the capitol (Beijing) region, its not known if he was a member of an organization (he rebelled by inserting anti-Qing comments in his songs and making up satirically anti-Qing plays, after all, we do not know if he did anything martially offensive), or if he continued those activities in Foshan, or if he did, whether he began his own, new group, or joined an existing one. Please remember the Tiandihui was only forming in Fujian in the 1760s, decades after Cheung Ng arrived in Foshan in the 1730s, and only spread well through Guangdong by the very early 1800s, so in any case, we may be talking about something different than a Tiandihui/Hung style society in any case.

Also, please remember the Red Junks themselves are not known to have engaged in any rebellious activity until the time of the Taiping, more than 100 years after Cheung Ng arrived. They are not known to have inserted anti-Qing comments into their songs, performed anti-Qing plays, etc. during Cheung's time, or between then and the Taiping.

WRT Yik Kam, since we know the "leader" of the opera was not the "leader" of the rebels, or vice versa, may I ask again if you know what "member" Yik Kam's status was among the rebels?

[Geezer]

Ming

Ming, dynasty of China that ruled from 1368 to 1644. The first Ming emperor, Chu Yüan-chang (ruled 1368-98), a former Buddhist monk, joined a rebellion in progress, gained control of it, overthrew the Mongol Yüan dynasty, and unified all of China proper. He set up a strong, centralized government and carried out economic recovery programs. He abolished the office of prime minister, thereby strengthening the autocratic power of the emperor. The emperor Yung Lo (reigned 1402-24) moved (1421) the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, which developed into a magnificent city. The dynasty, which never created a viable taxation policy, always had fiscal problems. Seven great naval expeditions, under the command of the Grand Eunuch Cheng Ho, were sent at considerable cost to SE Asia, India, the Persian Gulf, and E Africa for tribute and trade (1405-33). These voyages ceased in 1433 and never resumed. Christian missionaries penetrated the Chinese hinterlands, and Europeans, such as Matteo Ricci, brought Western ideas to the Ming court. The Ming was generally a period of stability and prosperity. There were notable achievements in literature, philosophy, and the arts. Wang Yang-ming(1472-1529), the great Ming neo-Confucian philosopher, developed an activist approach to moral training and self-cultivation. The huge Yung-lo Encyclopedia (Yung-lo ta-tien), which included all major works in Confucian classics, history, philosophy, and miscellaneous subjects, was compiled in the early 15th cent. Four great novels, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Water Margin (All Men Are Brothers), Journey to the West, and The Golden Lotus, were written in this period. Drama in the Southern style, painting, and architecture reached great heights. The delicate monochromatic porcelain of the Ming period is often considered the finest achievement of Chinese ceramics. Incompetent emperors, oppressive taxation, and factionalism in government in the later years of the dynasty incited revolts among peasants in the border regions and prepared the way for the Manchu conquest of China (see Ch'ing). See R. Huang, 1587: A Year of No Significance (1981); F. F. Mote and D. Twitchett, ed., The Cambridge History of China (Vol. 7, 1988).

It says that Chu Yüan-chang was a former Buddhist Monk and joined a Rebellion in progress, is it not possible that the Buddhist Monks of the time of Ming rule favored being ruled by the Ming and not the Ching??????????

[t_niehoff]

Pardon my interruption on all this talk about Cheung Ng and Operas and secret societies, but it seems to me that it is all unnecessary as far as WCK history is concerned. **Can someone tell me how they expect to prove lineage without actually proving lineage?** What does it matter what Cheung Ng did or did not do (WCK or whatever) if you can't prove a direct relationship to him? TN

Terence

[yuanfen]

**Can someone tell me how they expect to prove lineage without actually proving lineage?** What does it matter what Cheung Ng did or did not do (WCK or whatever) if you can't prove a direct relationship to him? TN
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Precisely.

Lots of tangential postings but no links on lineage, exclusivity of Chan connection, exclusivity of "scientific" precision.
Talk of lineage, Chan and methodology by themselves do not give
operation links- to substance.

But if the lineage stories are believed by members of the lineage-thats ok by me...but why waste time with it on threads....unless the principle of its better to be talked about than not talked about
holds here.

BTW- the listing of Augustine Fong as a technical advisor for VTM is playing fast and loose with advertisement.

[reneritchie]

Sheldon,


that the Buddhist Monks of the time of Ming rule favored being ruled by the Ming and not the Ching??????????

According to the Triads themselves, the Shaolin helped the Qing dynasty and were on very good terms with them initially, even aiding them in putting down the Xilufan rebellion. Historically, the Qing did a lot to help rebuild and promote Buddhism. (Of course, you're aware that the Qing themselves were Buddhist, and some very religious?)

Terence,

I don't mind discussing related areas, even if they remain unproven to directly effect WCK origins or development, because they are part of the culture from which the art derived. Of course, you're correct, no one has yet established that Cheung Ng had anything to do with WCK, the Guangdong Societies, or anything else other than the Opera for which he is well known. That will take some work to sort out and document.

Joy,

I think we're still in the crawl stage of "crawl - walk - run". I do regret, however, that no one seems interested in actually discussing WCK origins. I enjoy the little tangents, admittedly, but they do seem to distract attention away from the main topic.

So,

Would anyone care to get back to WCK itself? Anyone able to discuss the sample working model I provided?

RR

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

According to the Triads themselves, the Shaolin helped the Qing dynasty and were on very good terms with them initially, even aiding them in putting down the Xilufan rebellion.

Taken from the History Channel website>

Triad Society

Triad Society, name given to a number of Chinese antidynastic secret societies by 19th-century Western observers. Most of these groups claimed descent from the Heaven and Earth Society (Taendi hui) or the Triad Society (Sanhe hui), two secret societies of the late 17th cent. that had originated in Fujian prov. The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch'ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast. In times of peace the secret societies functioned as fraternal organizations, but they often became involved in criminal activities and at times armed conflict with rival groups occurred. Poor peasants, itinerant workers, and others who lacked strong kinship ties found security in the fraternal ties and in the protection offered by the societies. The Taiping Rebellion (1850-64) brought a revival of secret-society militancy and anti-Manchu sentiment, but local groups continued to function independently and no hierarchic organization was achieved. Branches of the Triads assisted Sun Yat-sen and other revolutionaries to carry out armed insurrection against the Ch'ing dynasty in the decade before the republican revolution of 1911. The Communist government of China launched (1949-50) a campaign to eliminate secret societies soon after assuming power. Triad societies persisted outside mainland China and among overseas Chinese. For the activities of secret societies in N China during the Ch'ing period, see White Lotus Rebellion; Boxer Uprising.


This is the part that strikes a chord with me>

The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch'ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast.

It seems that Buddhist Monks didn't have any problems with getting involved in Rebellions and that the Triads actually were very heavily active in trying to overthrow the Ching????????

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Sheldon,

There were various periods of research in modern times into the origins of the Triads. The first was Sun Yat-Sen's manipulation of history where he tried to gain the support of overseas triads by having "historians" work on the Xilufan myth to make them think their origins were patriotic and tied to the Shaolin temple (nevermind even the myths contradicted this with the Shaolin working at first with the Qing until they were betrayed, and only then working againt them - making them seem selfish or self-interested, and hardly patriotic). Likewise, "overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming" was shown to be a marketing slogan (one adopted only after "overthrow the Qing and return the Song" failed (not enough people remembered the Song). Later research themes included a prominent period under French historians and then the PRC push towards "mutual aid societies" which tried to tell the people that the Triads were early forms of communism, thus tying the PRC into their legacy.

It is now commonly accepted among legitimate researchers and historians that the Triads had no root in Shaolin (the tales being adaptions of Tang dynasty fables) and no root in anti-Qing (though some factions later adopted that purpose to be certain). They were rather a response to the times themselves, with massive migration, uncomfortable economic opportunites, and groups of disenfranchises, mostly male, youths who banded together for both protection and predation. The Tiandihui itself being the development of Ti Xi, who while not a Buddhist monk, did use the aliases of Monk Hong Er, Monk Wan, among others.

Since this seems to be an interest of yours, and my fingers can only type so much, I once again recommend you get copies of the modern works on the subject, all well researched, peer reviewed, referenced, and supported. They would, I have not doubt, answer most of your questions far better than either I, or haphazard Google might.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

then the PRC push towards "mutual aid societies" which tried to tell the people that the Triads were early forms of communism, thus tying the PRC into their legacy.

History Channel wrote>

The Communist government of China launched (1949-50) a campaign to eliminate secret societies soon after assuming power.

Rene Wrote>

The first was Sun Yat-Sen's manipulation of history where he tried to gain the support of overseas triads by having "historians" work on the Xilufan myth to make them think their origins were patriotic and tied to the Shaolin temple

History Channel Wrote>

Branches of the Triads assisted Sun Yat-sen and other revolutionaries to carry out armed insurrection against the Ch'ing dynasty in the decade before the republican revolution of 1911.

Rene Wrote>

According to the Triads themselves, the Shaolin helped the Qing dynasty and were on very good terms with them initially, even aiding them in putting down the Xilufan rebellion.


History Channel Wrote>

The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch'ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast.

Rene Wrote>

Since this seems to be an interest of yours

And yours, I thought:confused:

Rene Wrote>

I once again recommend you get copies of the modern works on the subject, all well researched, peer reviewed, referenced, and supported.

But the information I'm posting is from the History Channels website:confused: don't you think that the information there is well researched, peer reviewed, referenced, and supported:confused:

Rene Wrote>

They would, I have not doubt, answer most of your questions far better than either I.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this, the information you yourself have come across:confused: and I feel this is all relevant to the birth of WCK;)

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Sheldon,

Could you please provide me with the references and sources for the quote you relayed? That might be helpful. And please let me know when you've had a chance to read History of the Tiandhihui, Secret Societies Reconsidered, God's Chinese Son (or any Spence's work, really), Strangers at the Gate, etc. since they might answer all your questions for you (and save my poor fingers unnecessary typing.)

Meanwhile, to test a theory, I asked GOOGLE if the moon was made of cheese. Lovely, chaps, they answered in a jiff...


Is the moon made of green cheese?


(the scientific evidence)

The landings of Apollo 11 and Apollo 12 on the moon sent shock waves through the moon's surface, which were detected on a seismograph. By measuring the speed of shock waves through rock (known as the seismic velocity), the density of the rock can be estimated. The higher the seismic velocity, the denser the rock. Seismic velocities for moon "rock" were compared to those of rocks from various locations. The results were published in Science [1], and are shown below:

Seismic Velocities

Lunar________________Seismic Velocity (km/sec)
Basalt 10017.....................1.84
Basalt 10046.....................1.25
Near surface layer..............1.2

Terrestrial rocks_______Seismic Velocity (km/sec)

Granite...............................5.9
Gneiss................................4.9
Basalt.................................5.8
Sandstone...........................4.9
Marble................................6.02
Limestone...........................5.06-5.97

It is clear from this that moon "rock" is considerably less dense than any type of rock found on earth. The scientists then decided to examine the seismic velocities of various cheeses from around the world. Some of the results are shown below:

Cheese_______________Seismic Velocity (km/sec)

Sapsego (Swiss).................2.12
Romano (Italy)....................1.74
Cheddar (Vermont).............1.72
Muenster (Wisconsin)..........1.57



(Of course, we all know it's wensleydale (sp?) don't we Grommit?)

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Could you please provide me with the references and sources for the quote you relayed? That might be helpful.

I thought you would have put this into Google, rather than seeing if the Moon was made of cheese

http://www.historychannel.com/

Rene Wrote>

And please let me know when you've had a chance to read History of the Tiandhihui, Secret Societies Reconsidered, God's Chinese Son (or any Spence's work, really), Strangers at the Gate, etc. since they might answer all your questions for you

It may take a while, I need to finish the book on The Gurkhas then a book on the History of the Royal Marines then A Bridge Too Far I have few other books on WW2 I need to read,so it might be a while;)

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

http://www.historychannel.com/

Sorry, that seems to be the source for your quote, not the sources and references for the information contained therein. Again, if you can provide that, I would appreciate it.


It may take a while, I need to finish the book on The Gurkhas then a book on the History of the Royal Marines then A Bridge Too Far I have few other books on WW2 I need to read,so it might be a while

No worries and enjoy. Once you've read the up-to-date material, I'd be interested in discussing this further with you.

GOOGLE, on "why do things burn?"


G. E. Stahl, postulates that in all flammable materials there is present phlogiston, a substance without color, odor, taste, or weight that is given off in burning. “Phlogisticated” substances are those that contain phlogiston and, on being burned, are “dephlogisticated.” The ash of the burned material is held to be the true material.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Sorry, that seems to be the source for your quote, not the sources and references for the information contained therein. Again, if you can provide that, I would appreciate it.

Go to the History Channels website and put Triad in the search window that should bring up some references then put in Ming and that should bring up some more references also put in White Lotus.
They have keywords you can click on to take you to other references while reading certain paragraphs.

If you like, I could post all the links for you:confused: ;)

Rene Wrote>

Once you've read the up-to-date material, I'd be interested in discussing this further with you.

Does that mean you're not too impressed by the material available on the History Channels website:confused: and surely the information there is as up to date as you can get:confused:

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Does that mean you're not too impressed by the material available on the History Channels website

The highly abridged paragraph from the Columbia Encyclopedia on the Taendi Hui (sic) is just that. It cannot, of course, give the illumination of full volumes specifically on and about the subject, nor is it meant to. For example, though the Taiping was "overthrow the Ming" it certainly wasn't "restore the Ming" (they wanted their own new dynasty, not a return to any older one).

BTW - apologies in advance if I lack time to properly respond to any more cut'n'pastes but I think I've provided enough to help get to the information without what little's left of my fingers being wasted away 8)

GOOGLE on "where do babies come from?"


Ask A Scientist©
Biology Archive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baby Origins
Question: Where do babies come from?
Joe Booby

Answer: Storks bring 'em.

[byond1]

geezer---nice contributing----

rene---my understanding is tan sao ng made his way to fatsan in the 1730's----wong wah bo and leung yee tai and dfmkam (members ) were not active until the early 1800's----wwb was still active when the ban was lifted off the opera..1866? if memory serves.....so tan sao ng couldnt have taught directly wwb or that generation
is yik kam --dai fam min kam? im assuming yes but have seen nothing documented about the use of the name yik kam versus sun kam....wasnt his real family name " So"?

[Geezer]

Rene, Hsanto,

Hendrik, where is it you train WCK, is it Singapore???????

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Brian,

Thank you for helping increase the substance of the thread. No, Yik Kam and Dai Fa Min Kam were different people (even the two characters for Kam are different, sort of like the Weng and Wing characters). In the opera, Yik Kam playes the "proper lady" role, while Dai Fa Min Kam played the Martial Painted Face (though it was said he also may have played the comedian at times).

I agree that it is difficult to see how Cheung Ng could have had any direct interaction with the generation of Wong Wah-Bo et. al.

[Geezer]

When did "Cho On" take WCK to Penang, Malaysia ?????????

[planetwc]

Apparently located here in Northern California right now, working in my general vicinity. We've almost come close to meeting for lunch. Perhaps we still can do so time permitting for both of us.

It is rather stressfull here in Silicon Valley these days with all the layoffs and fewer people to do more work.

So maybe we can get rolling hand to drive down from sacramento and meet us for lunch or dinner eh?

[reneritchie]

David,

Ever watch "The Iron Chef"? If so, do you know the Chairman, right after he bites down on that pepper in the into, and gets that smile on his face? That reminds me nothing more than Hendrik discussing WCK over Sushi. Hope you guys do get a chance to hook up!

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by Geezer


Hendrik, where is it you train WCK, is it Singapore???????



Before or Now?

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by planetwc
Apparently located here in Northern California right now, working in my general vicinity. We've almost come close to meeting for lunch. Perhaps we still can do so time permitting for both of us.

It is rather stressfull here in Silicon Valley these days with all the layoffs and fewer people to do more work.

So maybe we can get rolling hand to drive down from sacramento and meet us for lunch or dinner eh?


HI David,

Valley seems to be worst and worst.....

[Hsanto]

Originally posted by reneritchie
David,

Ever watch "The Iron Chef"? If so, do you know the Chairman, right after he bites down on that pepper in the into, and gets that smile on his face? That reminds me nothing more than Hendrik discussing WCK over Sushi. Hope you guys do get a chance to hook up!


Rene,

Ya I can talk upto 2am similar to when we were in LA two years ago. Too many things to talk about in WCK.

[planetwc]

I'm not an Iron Chef kinda guy. Just didn't click for me.

on the food channel I have watched Emiril Live and the guy who does Good Eats. But those aren't regular shows for me.

I more watch Dr Phil alongside my wife courtesy of our Tivo.
:p

[Grendel]

Originally posted by planetwc
I more watch Dr Phil alongside my wife courtesy of our Tivo.
:p
Gawd, I hope you're kiddin. David Letterman correctly characterized Dr. Phil as a guy "who pulls advice out of his a*s."

If Hendrik knows a good restaurant, I'd like to come to lunch too, especially if Rolling Hand will be there.

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by planetwc
Apparently located here in Northern California right now, working in my general vicinity. We've almost come close to meeting for lunch. Perhaps we still can do so time permitting for both of us.

It is rather stressfull here in Silicon Valley these days with all the layoffs and fewer people to do more work.

So maybe we can get rolling hand to drive down from sacramento and meet us for lunch or dinner eh?
Hey, David,

You've never invited me to lunch!?! I'm willing to brave the traffic if you are. :D I'm not worried about your deadlines because I sold all my stock. :p

[reneritchie]

Dr. Phil is a slight improvement over Dr. Laura in that, unlike her and her doctorate in physiology, his doctorate was, at least, in psychology, but unfortunately, he's not a pshychologist, so probably shouldn't be playing one on TV.

I watched a Jamie Oliver Live special last weekend. Something about British humor (even while cooking) just has me ROFLOL.

Hope all y'all get a chance to hook up. Raise a glass for me, if so.

RR

[kj]

Hmmm ... just a thought here ...

What if I could arrange to come out a week early to the Wing Chun Camp; think we could coordinate a get-together in the Bay Area? I mean, if I can travel 3000+ miles for the visit, and you guys only have to arrange for one day ...... ;)

Whaddya think ... John, John, Hendrik, "Emptycup," David, Andrew, Tom, anyone else? Say, maybe Sunday, April 27th or thereabouts?

Not that I can make any promises myself just yet. But hey, with a little advance planning, ya never know what kind of a group you can pull together. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Barring disaster or EBMAS seminar, I'm in.

Andrew

[yuanfen]

KJ- You didnt include me. I do live far from SF-but I will think about it. Apart from distance- not as far as yours but the west has great open spaces you know--
I have to give a paper in Las vegas a little before that- Fong"s gathering is a little after that. So there are squeezes from different directions. I got back froma two day LA wing chun
and CMA related trip recently- and today there was a nice social and civil gathering of about 30 wing chun folks from about 5-7 schools in Arizona.

Today is a sad day with the News about the shuttle- an additional point of sadness for me was the death of Kalpana Chawla of Indian origin- she wasa heroine in India.

[planetwc]

David Letterman?
LOL

He should talk. He let's his own a*s be owned by Jay Leno! :rolleyes:

I'm just sorry I missed the Conan show where Triumph was unleashed on Simon Cowell. THAT must have been funny.

Well Roger Rolling Hand, can you join us for lunch?


Originally posted by Grendel

Gawd, I hope you're kiddin. David Letterman correctly characterized Dr. Phil as a guy "who pulls advice out of his a*s."

If Hendrik knows a good restaurant, I'd like to come to lunch too, especially if Rolling Hand will be there.

Regards,

[planetwc]

Actually he (Dr. Phil) was a practicing psychologist for about 10 years. Then he founded his other business in 89. I agree with you about "Dr. Laura", what a shrill nutjob.

Never heard of Jamie Oliver--I'l have to look him up. Aside from the pythons, faulty towers, Benny Hill and another british guy who as I remember was missing part of a finger (dave ?) that was the extent of my PBS based UK humor watching.


Originally posted by reneritchie
Dr. Phil is a slight improvement over Dr. Laura in that, unlike her and her doctorate in physiology, his doctorate was, at least, in psychology, but unfortunately, he's not a pshychologist, so probably shouldn't be playing one on TV.

I watched a Jamie Oliver Live special last weekend. Something about British humor (even while cooking) just has me ROFLOL.

Hope all y'all get a chance to hook up. Raise a glass for me, if so.

RR

[reneritchie]

Hi Dave,

I think there's a subtle difference. It's my understanding he us a doctor of (experimental?) psychology (Ph.D), not a psychologist(tm). A psychologist (clinical) has to have specific training different from what someone in experimental psychology or some other sub-specialty might. So, what might be good for jury consultation (his specialty before the TV) may not be the same thing you'd want in a clinical psychologist who sees and treats patients (the actual term 'psychologist' is copyrighted or trademarked or some such thing and you have to intern, pass certain board examines and join the college to be able to use it). An interesting aside, here in Quebec, if you want to practice elsewhere in Canada, or here in English, you need the PdD, internship, U.S. boards, etc. but if you want to practice in French, you just need a masters (though you have to call yourself a therapist).

To bring it back to WCK, it might be like someone who's studied all the forms and knows them backwards or forwards, but has never done Chi Sao, San Sao, sparring, etc., having a class on application. That dog won't hunt ;)

Jamie Oliver is on Food Network, usually under the show titles 'Oliver's Twist' or 'Naked Chef' (though he is fully clothed, so perhaps it's like a 'naked choke' where it just means he's not using the Kimono ;)

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
KJ- You didnt include me. I do live far from SF-but I will think about it. Apart from distance- not as far as yours but the west has great open spaces you know--
I have to give a paper in Las vegas a little before that- Fong"s gathering is a little after that. So there are squeezes from different directions.

It would be so great if you could join us too, Joy! I hope we can pull this one off. Rumor has it even David Letterman may be there. :D



I got back froma two day LA wing chun
and CMA related trip recently- and today there was a nice social and civil gathering of about 30 wing chun folks from about 5-7 schools in Arizona.

I read a little about it on another thread. Sounds like it went really well from a fellowship and sharing perspective. Sounds like a good turn out too.



Today is a sad day with the News about the shuttle- an additional point of sadness for me was the death of Kalpana Chawla of Indian origin- she wasa heroine in India.

It is a terrible tragedy in so many ways.

Regards,
- Kathy jo

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by kj

Whaddya think ... John, John, Hendrik, "Emptycup," David, Andrew, Tom, anyone else? Say, maybe Sunday, April 27th or thereabouts?

Hi KJ,

Count me in. I'll even travel as far as Es-Ef if I hafta. There're better Wing Chun and restaurants in the South Bay, though. :)

I was in Es-Ef Monday, and I think the city is badly in need of repair (Read: bombing and burning). They'd be better off just starting over by rebuilding in some other country and taking their depraved population and politicians with them. :)

Dr. Laura doesn't pretend to be a psychologist a la Dr. Phil. She is some kinda moralist. I can't stand either of them or the fish they peddle. :rolleyes: British humor is dumb and ignorant for the most part, except for the creme-de-la-creme named by David. We're lucky to see only the best over here. It is certainly better than listening to Dr. Phil and Laura.

Anyway, I'll keep April 27 open for the get together. I'm still kicking myself for lacking sufficient gumption to visit with Joy in La-La Land last weekend. I'm sure we can use San Jose Wing Chun's location for working out if that's on the agenda. We can accomodate a lot of people there.

Cheers,

[kj]

Originally posted by John Weiland
Count me in. I'll even travel as far as Es-Ef if I hafta. There're better Wing Chun and restaurants in the South Bay, though. :) <snip>
Anyway, I'll keep April 27 open for the get together. I'm still kicking myself for lacking sufficient gumption to visit with Joy in La-La Land last weekend. I'm sure we can use San Jose Wing Chun's location for working out if that's on the agenda. We can accomodate a lot of people there.

Well, I'm a hair closer to making it myself. I booked airline tickets today, which would get me there in time for April 27th; now if I can get everything else in order, perhaps I can even manage hold those dates without change, LOL.

So far it looks like you, me, Andrew, and maybe Joy and David Letterman. It would be great if John Kang, Hendrik, Tom, and Roger Rolling Hand could join us. If we sweet talk them real nice, perhaps there's a chance we might get JL, Juergen, Yvonne, Alan, Dan, or some of the others to get together as well. You never know, maybe even the infamous Bob. :D

I have no idea where we would meet or what time. Maybe meet for an early lunch and work out in one of the parks if the weather is good and folks want to?? Golden Gate is obvious in SF. Is there something comparably functional in Cupertino or thereabouts? Being so far away, I'm a bit challenged when it comes to coordinating logistics.

Uh, and should we start a new thread for this? :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kj

So far it looks like you, me, Andrew, and maybe Joy and David Letterman. It would be great if John Kang, Hendrik, Tom, and Roger Rolling Hand could join us. If we sweet talk them real nice, perhaps there's a chance we might get JL, Juergen, Yvonne, Alan, Dan, or some of the others to get together as well. You never know, maybe even the infamous Bob. :D

If Bob goes, then I'll definitely be there. He owes me money. :p


Maybe meet for an early lunch and work out in one of the parks if the weather is good and folks want to??

I'm not a fan of busy public places for meeting, but Cupertino has an appropriate park or two and you don't have to hike in like GG Park in Frisco while your car gets ticketed and broken into. Other easy to get to places on the Peninsula include Palo Alto and Menlo Park with convenient parks and restaurants.


Golden Gate is obvious in SF. Is there something comparably functional in Cupertino or thereabouts?

There is nothing as dysfunctional as SF in Cupertino. Cupertino is not collectively crazed or degenerate, but they do have good Chinese restaurants. :D Portal Park on Portal Drive would work well.


Being so far away, I'm a bit challenged when it comes to coordinating logistics.

We'll make Bob responsible. :D


Uh, and should we start a new thread for this? :)

Uh, yeah! :D

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Grendel

If Bob goes, then I'll definitely be there. He owes me money. :p

Me too! We should charge him usurious rates. :rolleyes:

If Grendel goes, so will I. :D

Cheers,