Are we trying to live in our master's shadow?

[mantis_seeker]

In some of the other threads there have been arguments between which lineages is better, whether it is Seven Star’s argument between CCM and WHF or Wah Lum or 8 Step. It is a common internal argument between practitioners of the same style and usually only by the students and not the sifus. Are we living in our master’s shadow? We respect and honor our master but their fame was earned by their hard work. Because we study in a famous master’s lineage, does that in turn make our mantis any better?

Lou Guang Yu of seven star fame trained thousands of students and today we only talk about 3 or 4 of them (WHF, CCM, CCY …). They were well known and respected masters not because of their training with LGY, but because they were good at what they practice. They honored and proved that LGY was a master by taking what he taught and being able to use it. You disgrace a master when the only accomplishment you have made is being a student of his. The only fame you have is by association. In another thread there is this argument over a technique missing/added to a form. We must all agree that there are changes and differences between different lineages. Does having more forms or techniques make you a better fighter? I think that question has been answered by many past masters. One needs to be a master of the basics.

The late Brendan Lai was not inducted to two hall of fames because he was a student of Won Hong Fun. I will argue that when he first started teaching in America only a handful of people knew anything at all about mantis. He is famous because he earned it himself. He was the one fighting not WHF. That WHF was a great master and teacher is evident in Brendan Lai, Al Cheng, ….. That Chu Chi Man was a great master is evident by Chu Leon, Lee Kam Wing ……. I think WHF and CCM would like to be honored with good students that continue their work. WHF and CCM certainly didn’t need their students to defend the additions or changes they made. They more eloquently defended it by demonstration. Everybody acclaimed them as masters because their students cleaned house.

I think we students should look more at what we do and how we train. One day when I meet a sifu or student of another lineage I want him to say “That was good, who was your sifu? Ah that is a good lineage.”

Let me again say that these arguments are usually by younger students and not the sifus. Arguing about whether the blue power ranger could beat up the red power ranger is fun, but let us not forget that they are both power rangers and as such would never fight each other because they are the Power Rangers.

mantis_seeker
Onjai

[4 Dragons]

That was an excellent post with lots of good points! It's about time we start living by the example our respective masters have set for us. Focus on the true teachings of Kung Fu and evolve as a person. There is way more to Kung Fu and Praying Mantis in particular than just fighting.

4 Dragons

[MightyB]

Silly Mantis Seeker, everyone knows that the White Power Ranger was the toughest of them all. ;)

Good points though. Heck, I find myself barely reading the Mantis Forum anymore. There's so much posturing here that it makes my head hurt to read it.

[BeiTangLang]

I agree with you 100% on this mantis_seeker.

But what should one do when ones lineage is said to be wrong, have too many/not enough moments, wrong this or that, is cr@p,..etc., in a public forum? I do not have a great answer for this ...matter of fact I only see 2 options;

1. You say nothing. Resultant being some people that know you & know kung fu shrug it off (rightfully so) & the others that are un-knowing assimilate incorrect information as fact. This ultimately will cause problems in your legitimacy in the majority of practitioners & scholars of your art.

2.You present your side of the story. Resultant being that you may appear to be hostile in the eyes of some, but more facts are presented into the observers of the conversation. People may see it as being dishonorable to the "fore-fathers", but I see it as honoring what one was taught. Others will also know your side of the question & they will look deeper into either art for answers.

So, In my eyes, the best scenario would be that either the question is not asked to begin with, the participants take each others questions & answer them to the best of their knowledge without being confrontational, Or, I'll just start deleting the questions before they are answered (my least favorite).
9 times out of 10, good information is passed through these threads that others can use in their own personal research, so,
Honor your lineage by learning from others.
Controversy & fighting has always been a part of CMA & I don't see that changing. What I do see changing is more students & instructors being given good information & Friends between family branches becoming more & more common despite their differences. I have seen this in my short years in the art & I am sure it will continue.

Best Wishes to all,
~BTL

[MantisifuFW]

Onjai,

I have a few observations on your excellent post:

1. It was not always so. I was, as a young man, a part of a school where the Sifu openly opposed each other and where we were fed a steady diet of how one line had hurt the other, someone we honored or the art itself. (This was emphatically NOT Sifu Lai. He had no time for such things). When we fought I was admonished to humiliate the other, not just beat them. I am not that old so it was not that long ago.

2. It is not so today. I recall in recent years sitting with a senior practitioner and hearing him malign a school of Gongfu that he gave fawning praise to when he was in their presence. He trained his students to do the same.

I have been the subject of such talk too. I recall one West Coast sifu who made it his business to go to as many Tanglang sifu as possible and speak ill of me. In this case, he was so unbelievable that it resulted in people wanting to speak to me just to see for themselves. One person said that they had never met the devil before but had always wanted to do so, so they called! This guy was acting on the orders of his sifu also. I still get calls about him and others around the world engaging in the same thing. What it ended up doing was to enable me to present my concept of communication between the branches and really furthered what I was really trying to do.

3. It will continue. Online, by the phone and otherwise, I assure you that most students do not engage in such activity unless it is encouraged in one way or another by their sifu. There are always exceptions but please believe me, it is so.

It is for us to make our own way in the art, as you said. I believe that if enough do this in an honorable fashion it will be sufficient.

Great Topic,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis_seeker]

Thanks for the replies guys,

BeiTangLang - I agree there aren't too many courses of action when somebody starts to publicly bash another lineage. But thanks to Sifu Cottrell, Tunks, and Albright for keeping things in perspective and giving an opinion of authority in these issues. Maybe someday the curse will be contiued so we can argue over Sifu Albright's mantis vs. Sifu Cottrell's. I think they all have defended their respectful styles with dignity and respect to one another. That is at least one positive side effect to these arguments.

I also believe that most of these arguments are instigated by someone that does not actively practice any mantis. When somebody says, "I can say that so so's lineage did not get the complete system", when they do not actively practice mantis, but they can speak on the matter because they have some kung fu training and know some people who do practice mantis, is laughable. The sad and good part is that these are public forums, so any person can use it for information and research. The sad part is when some of this information is based on "knowing someone who does mantis" or by watching a tape. But another positive effect is the good information that comes from these debates.

It is sad when human feelings of ineptitude and inadequacies make us do and say stupid things. In the past I have bashed other kung fu styles because I needed to feel superior in what I was doing. I now know a little better and only bash on the styles that I am positively sure are inferior to mantis. The list keeps getting shorter the more I learn. I can't even say anything about Mandarin Duck style anymore.

Sifu Cottrell - I am glad things are slowly improving. I think thanks in part to individuals such as yourself.

mantis_seeker

[carly]

Where did you see Mandarin Duck?

[mantis_seeker]

Sifu Cottrell,

I am hoping that mentality is dying. At any rate at least it is becoming less vocal in some respects. I have been fortunate enough not to yet encounter such hostility. Sifu has always encouraged us to have an open mind. Meeting people such as yourself and others I have only seen the family part of kung fu.

Carly,

I first saw duck style on a tape called "Dragons of the Orient". It has provided me with numerous hours of small talk with other martial artists. If any of you have based an opinion about duck style based on this tape then I urge you to seek more information out. I think the style recieves its name for the type of kicking it does.

mantis_seeker

[-N-]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang

...You say nothing. Resultant being some people that know you & know kung fu shrug it off (rightfully so) & the others that are un-knowing assimilate incorrect information as fact. This ultimately will cause problems in your legitimacy in the majority of practitioners & scholars of your art.
Sifu Lai set the example on one occasion when a person came to challenge him.

Sifu Lai told him, "Please leave us alone. We are having class. I have no wish to fight you. If you want to say you're better than me, please go ahead. Tell everyone that you are the best."

Occasionally he would lecture us saying, "I am the worst of all my classmates. My Sihing were very very good. I am nothing. What does that make you? The student of nothing!"

-N-

[carly]

Can you tell us what the Mandarin Duck you saw on the tape was like?
I don't have an opinion on the style, I just understand that elements of its kicking were incorporated into Praying Mantis.

[carly]

Sifu Lai sounds like a cool guy.

[B.Tunks]

Hi Carly.

Tanglang incorporates the Mandarin Duck kick, but it initially comes from another Shandong boxing style which isn't Ya Quan (Duck Boxing). There are many different versions of this kick/kicks (as it is sometimes done as a connected double kick). You will find Mandarin duck feet in boxing styles such as Wu Song Beaks his Manacles and Chuojiao Quan.
B.T

[carly]

Hi. Which Shantung boxing style does mantis's mandarin duck kick come from? Thanks.