The morality of fighting....

[red5angel]

I am getting the impression I might be a little more loose on my fighting ethic then some of you guys so lets see.

I don't have a problem with fighting, period. I am looking at doing submission type competitions and the idea to me is really cool.

In a self defense situation where the variables are questionable but the threat is high, I don't mind killing my attacker and running like hell.

The same goes for low threats, except change kill to hurt badly. If you throw a punch at me period, if I can I am going to make you think about the next time you want to fight. As a mater of fact, if I can make it so you sit like an ostrich for the rest of your life, thats your bad not mine.

I don't have a problem with challenging teachers, upper level students etc.., I don't care about kung fu courtesy, if you can fight, show me so I have confidence I am learning from someone who knows their stuff.

Guy are girl, if you punch or kick me I will retaliate, your size may reduce the quantity or quality of my retaliation but I am going to at the least give you a fat lip so you can go sit in the corner and think about what you have done.

If a freind starts a fight, I don't generally mind letting him get his a$$ beat so he can realise the full responsibility of his actions.

so how about you?

[Arhat of Fury]

wow Red5, you've really talked yourself into something!:D

[Kristoffer]

You talk alot, that's for sure

[yenhoi]

But you shouldent go looking for real fights or picking on people.

[red5angel]

I "go looking" for real fights through competition. That way those involved are voluntarily there. I have only ever picked one fight, for reasons I felt made it ok.

I don't approve if abuse in any form, and that includes bullying. But that leads to another concept, how about kicking someones a$$ because they are asking for it?

[ShaolinTiger00]

The same goes for low threats, except change kill to hurt badly. If you throw a punch at me period, if I can I am going to make you think about the next time you want to fight.

Prepare for the jury trial of your life. "excessive force" is almost as bad as using a weapon against an "untrained" assailant.

In the eyes of the court system you are a trained killer and should know when you have control enough of the situation to remove yourself from harm. Remove yourself from harm. say that aloud, because any attack after that = you are the attacker.. Granted if surrounded by thugs, that definition may mean fight for your life, but as a "low threat"-your words aka mano y mano macho fight. you need to understand controlling him is the key. throw a jab, give him an uppercut and maybe a knee to the gut/head or reap his feet out and put his ass on the ground. - control him and make him see what a bad idea this really is. It won't take much.

I was in a bar once (I was pretty loose but not drunk) and a guy mistook me for a guy shagging his girl, he started running his mouth and cursing at me. I blasted him with a jab on his chin, and he just stood there. amazed. He just kept staring at me and I thought he was going to cry. A buddy drug him away and I asked the bartender to toss him out.
no problems..

Its best to keep your your fighting to the gym.


I have strong reservation about the words "martial arts" being used in place of "self-defense" as the two are worlds apart. If someone were to ask me where to learn self-defense I would not send him or her to a martial arts school. I would send them to a self-defense training center, where they would learn H2H and CQB fighting similar to Applegate/Biddle/Fairbairn/ Grover/Nelson combat techniques. Stripped down, devastating, pain. And weapons training because that's a streetfight (add to this understand the laws!) Its one thing to have skills that will help you(your fight training), its another to have specific skills for the situation at hand when your life is in danger.

On another forum, they were talking about what is more "human instinct" - punching or grappling? - the answer- It really doesn't matter because as soon as one man grabbed a big stick, the winner was clear.

[No_Know]

When you go as far as you can with even Great skill, Kung-Fu courtesy should get you far ther.

[yenhoi]

I think if someone is asking for it or what not, your supposeto go tell on them so that the people who get paid to give it to them can do their job.

I usually figure that if someone is asking for it so badly, someone else will probably take care of them with no need for me to go getting bloody etc.

I also dont generally ever take it upon myself to right any wrongs or protect any weaklings or this or that.

:eek:

[red5angel]

I don't wat to get into another semantics discussion on self defense vs martial arts. I assume anyone here who studies martial arts will also use it for defense. While I take martial arts primarily because it's fun and I want to fight in competitions, the self defense aspect is one I take into consideration.

That said ST, my theory is that I am not going to waste time with a jab or two. You want to fight I am going ot give you one verbal warning and let you know I don't want to fight you. If you persist I am going to bend you knee/elbow/fingers the wrong way until I get that satisfactory cracking noise followed by your scream or you passing out. Why you might ask? Because by threatening to fight me you are risking my life, one unlucky shot and you can kill me or put me in a coma, maybe cause brain damage etc.... I on the other hand have enough control to be able to break a limb without doing most of those things. I got into a fight once with a guy who wouldn't let it go so I jabbed him too, and he commenced to kicking the crap out of me, I was a little inebriated at the time.
As for the law, if I am in a public place, I am going to let the proper authorities, bouncers, cops, security guards etc.. know you are a problem. I am on a dark street or in my home when you come in uninvited, I don't mind destroying your ass and running/dropping your body off at he nearest alley/wooded lot. Why? Because I don't know your intentions and like I stated on that thread where the cop shot the 12 year old kid, thinking too much about it might get me killed.

[red5angel]

"I think if someone is asking for it or what not, your suppose to go tell on them so that the people who get paid to give it to them can do their job."

For arguments sake, what do you do with those who authorities can't do anything about?

[Arhat of Fury]

I have never had a problem talking my way out of any fight that I didnt see a justified reason behind fighting..

Thats what I think separates the men from the boys..
Fighting is the easy way out, sometimes battling your own pride and ego is harder than battling an opponent.....for me anyway "shrug"


AOF

[red5angel]

"Fighting is the easy way out"

I have heard this before but I am not so sure I agree. However, I have talked myself out of quite a few fights, and don't think it's a cop out or weak by any means.

Of course part of my theory on the developement of morality and laws, whether they be religious or legal, is that they developed out of a need for the weak to protect themselves with numbers.
For instance, if we all lived ina village, and I am the biggest strongest guy there and am always picking on and beating other people up to taketheir stuff or whatever. It's in the peoples best interest to establish as a whole that this is wrong. No one wants to get beat up or hurt and it makes for a more comfortable society.
However, I think it's a part of human nature........

[Ryu]

Do what needs to be done in the situation given.
In order to be able to make those critical distinctions in judgment, one has to be well trained in matters of ethical responsibility, and morality, both legal and human.

Remember that your attacker may have the same ruthlessness. If he punches you and you want nothing less then his death, chances are you'll run into the person who turns it right back on you. What do you do if your "killer instinct" turns a push fight into a life and death matter?

If I picked a fight (I wouldn't, but ...) and wanted only to beat some one up a little bit, and he suddeny tried to kill me, I'd kill him first.

Ryu

[ShaolinTiger00]

If you persist I am going to bend you knee/elbow/fingers the wrong way until I get that satisfactory cracking noise followed by your scream or you passing out.

Excessive force. - public place= witnesses. Have you ever been in lockdown? the jumpsuits are baggy... *does mc hammer dance*

Because by threatening to fight me you are risking my life

Wrong. Unless he threatens to KILL You, or do bodily harm and impedes you from leaving, you have no right to assault him. Pretty messed up huh? that's the law.

I got into a fight once with a guy who wouldn't let it go so I jabbed him too, and he commenced to kicking the crap out of me, I was a little inebriated at the time.

That's the funny part. He isn't "a trained killer" and its just assault. you do the same and it's much worse.

Dark alley or in your home. - do what you have to do then make up a plausible story later. but those are situations where the jury will have sympathy for you.

They will not in public places. they are expecting you to be restrained.

I'm guessing you're in the young under 25 yr. crowd? You'll find alot of posturing and chest puffing, alcohol is always a good enabler in giving someone liquid courage to punch another guy. Advice from me to you. - Go out with lots of friends, don't get too drunk, watch a girl for a few minutes before you start hitting on her. - you may save yourself a few altercations.

[Oso]

How about splitting the concept of fighting to 'sport fighting' as in
nhb competitions and 'street fighting' for everything else.

ST00 sums up the legal aspect pretty well.
Slightly different in each state but mostly the same.
Martial artists are similar to cops in that we have less rights
than our assailant in a fight.

I'd be happy to email a draft of a book a friend of mine (long time
okinawan student/teacher and 16 years as a cop) is writing to
examine NC law. Just for comparison's sake.

I will attempt to get the situation resolved w/o anything getting
physical for as long as I can. He will have to swing first, almost
always. But, I also teach and feel I have to be an example of
the code of conduct that I preach. Unless you want a kobra kai
type of school you can't have your students getting in trouble
with the law. And I teach kids. I couldn't preach to them to not
get into fights if I was.

"If a freind starts a fight, I don't generally mind letting him get his a$$ beat so he can realise the full responsibility of his actions."

I am in complete aggreement with this. I've refused to hang out
with people once I saw that they were just out to pick fights.

It's a tough call for me. As my confidence in myself has grown
over the years (and well as my intolerance of idiots) I've said
things to people who I though 'deserved it' or were asking for
it. Luckily I'm kinda big and definitely ugly so they backed down.

(Of course, I use big & ugly to mask the fact that I'm really
dominating them with my eye chi blasts)

My girlfriend and I witnissed a car change 3 lanes and make a turn
into a parking lot thereby cutting off cars in every lane, one by
only a foot or so. As we sat at the light we saw the couple get
out of the car and start arguing in the parking lot. The guy was
a lot bigger than the girl and as we watched him get more and
more agitated my gf and I discussed whether we would interfere
if it got physical. We would have and we realized that it would
have resulted in both of us having to fight most likely. The guy
went into the store and the girl back in the car and we drove on.


we've had discussions in other threads about this same thing
pretty much (cell phone/movie & 'not as civil') I'm not going to
knock anyones response against someone who is asking for it
as long as it doesn't turn into abuse. A lot of people just need
a good bi tch slapping. I'm just not sure if I'm the one to make
that call.

[red5angel]

ST, just some info, I am 29 and pretty calm. I am not the kind of person to jump at the oppurtunity to fight and like stated above, I have talked myself out of plenty of fights.
In general, it isn't so much that these issues come up often, or at all with me, but this is how I feel I would handle these situations as they arise. The issue is that obviously I am in a small minority.

[Oso]

Because by threatening to fight me you are risking my life

Wrong. Unless he threatens to KILL You, or do bodily harm and impedes you from leaving, you have no right to assault him. Pretty messed up huh? that's the law.


dang it, ST00, beat me to it again.

a verbal assault does not mean you get to batter him.

The key words are "...fearing for my life." You have to remain
in fear of your life through out the encounter to justify continuing
to batter them once they stopped battering you. And then you
might have to be able convince a judge/jury that you were indeed
in fear for your life the entire time.

I agree, messed up. but, my luck is such that I'll be the one in
trouble not the fughead who started messing with me.

kinda funny, ironic story

I grew up in Richmond VA's northside of town in low income
housing. i.e. the projects. I have 2 younger siblings, a sister and
a brother. We were picked on and beaten up on a fairly regular
basis. My brother developed an almost constant nose bleed
because he got hit in it on a regular basis. He had to get it cauterized several times to stop the bleeding.

Well, one day after school he comes running in and his blue
shirt is purple with blood and his face is red from the eyes down
with it as well. He is of course crying at age 8 but tells me who
did it. I knew the kid and knew he was 11. I was 14. I pretty
much snapped and ran outside to the playground. The kid saw
me coming and started running. I chased him out of the
complex and over the 6' fence and into the next neighborhood
before I caught him. He punched, I punched, we ended up on
the ground with me on top and I proceed to give a skinny
kid's impression of ground and pound. I think I blacked out a bit
and don't remember anything until I realized I was sitting in a
cop car. To make a long story short, my family was kicked out of
the complex because I was a 'troublemaker'. I certainly felt
justified in my response. The kid was pretty exactly between my
brother's age and mine and approx between us in size. I
figured it was just. But, irregardless of the fact that it was well
known that we were beaten up a lot we got punished for my
actions.

so, that kind of luck has stuck with me.

[ShaolinTiger00]

but this is how I feel I would handle these situations as they arise. The issue is that obviously I am in a small minority.

I think many people "feel" this way. - the guy kicking the crap out of you probably did right? I do. Wouldn't id be great to just *Freak* on that guy on the subway that annoys you, or that jerk on the corner who just bumped into your cup of coffee and you're now wearing it.

But emotion must be tempered with sound judgement which I'm sure you understand.

that said, I understand the fighting spirit and you must also learn to use you're own verbal abilities to either shut down the threat or cause him to engage you if that is what you want. The art of the sarcastic taunt is under appreciated..

[Arhat of Fury]

My code of ethic is "if you put your hands on me its on" I could care less about talkers, if they want to talk, let them talk, I just tell them "make a move or shut the fug up. That will usually render a conclusion.

But IMO red5, I would say you of the majority and not the minority.
AOF

[red5angel]

Oso - I thnk part of the confusion lies in that you guys want to look at it from the legal point of view. I don't care how the law defines it, if the guy swings wildly and manages to put a bone through my brain and I die or become disabled, or the thousands of other possibilities in fight that end up with me dead or badly hurt, he is threatening my life by even taking the chance. I know full well if I am going to fight someone this can happen, but I don't think most people on the street think about those things. My issue is not necessarily your intent, but your action.
For instance, your in my house, your just robbing the place, probably would give up if I pushed it, excpet your in my house, and I am not going ot take the time to ask you if you want to give up. I am coming from a corner somewhere with a bat, or a knife and I am going to make you regret it. In my mind there aren't levels of threat in an unknown situation, there is just threat, period.

In general, if we are in a public place, you will probably get lucky and I will just tell the authorities. If you are threatening me, we are in a position where I think I can get away from the scene without getting caught, I am going to punish you.

Some people say that isn't our responsibility, but I don't agree.

[Oso]

r5a,

well, I agree from an emotional standpoint.
Don't come in my space/house/car. He ll, I get ill with the
neigborhood kids cutting accross the yard.

you make decent points about the randomness of a fight.

You have to know who Robert Heinlein is. I believe in what
he says about personal rights/freedoms and what you should
be able to do to protect those. If you havn't read any of his
stuff I could pm you a list of titles.

Our litigous society has prevented that.

let me put it this way...I will be constantly trying to figure out
how to make the scene appear totally in my favor so I can do
as much damage as possible. That's why I have tried to learn
what I could about the way the legal system is going to look
at it: So I could work with that system to save my own fine
self from incarceration.

That's also why I have a large clawfoot tub and a 55 gal drum of
sulfuric acid in the basement.;)
oh, and 4 cats.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I don't care how the law defines it

You'll care if it goes against you and you just accidentally crippled, maimed or killed a guy (maybe you just make him get lots of stitches and just get put in the "holding tank" ). Emotion can screw up your life. That's part of training. Learning to be calm under the pressure of a physical conflict.

[red5angel]

"Learning to be calm under the pressure of a physical conflict."

Agreed. However, if any of these situations comes up, I am willingto accept any consequences I may draw to myself.

Oso - yep, I know who heinlein is but haven't read a whole lot of his stuff. My big concern will be just l extracating myself from the scene in general.

[carly]

You posted about "H2H and CQB fighting similar to Applegate/Biddle/Fairbairn/ Grover/Nelson combat techniques."
Have you seen any of these schools in person?
I've looked at websites and it seemed they knew their stuff.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Yes Carly.

I highly regard my friends @ Crucible Securities as some of the finest in the business.

Crucible website (http://www.cruciblesecurity.com/indexold2.html)

Marine gung-ho chuan assoc WWII h2h combat (http://www.ghca.org/)

Great site for similar links, forum and searches. (http://www.gutterfighting.org)

Link to Army's latest h2h manual. (http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/toc.htm)

[cogg]

you should all come and live in england (hell.. everyone else is), the law as it stands is that you can knock out a burglar in your house then sit on him until the police arrive (he'll never know what you knocked him out with if your sly;)

and your allowd to pre-emptively strike, if you feel threatened by someone (eg. getting in your face)

weve got it good, but everyone seems to be up for a fight!:confused:

[tsunami surfer]

The loser always gets the ambulance and the winner gets the squad car. That is just a quick and down and dirty summary of your basic Friday/saturday night brawl card.

[carly]

A genuine thank you - those are great links.

[ShaolinTiger00]

carly - anytime. punching and kicking another grown man is one thing and we can argue and debate the qualities involved for hours.

When it comes down to weapons, killing, destroying of life - then the path must be decisive, swift and dedicated.


and your allowd to pre-emptively strike, if you feel threatened by someone (eg. getting in your face)

That is the law in the US as well. However it never looks good to a jury to say that you were verbally assaulted and had to defend yourself with physical attacks! (Why didn't you just threaten him back?) The plea of self defense only realistically works after someone has struck you, or is in the act or motion of striking you. ex. -He ****s his arm back to strike you and you "chop" him in the throat. He didn't punch you but he was gonna....

[red5angel]

ST, hopefully I made it clear that in those cases I stated, my actions are never pre-emptive unless you have broke into my house, and possibly an ambush on the streets. In either case I may not have time to ascertain what your intentions are and swift action is recquired to protect myself and those with me.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I got that.

[red5angel]

Anyway, the original intent of this thread was not to prove that I am some sort of law breaking, vigilante bad a$$ (we already know that.) but to see if the impression that I was the only one who felt this way was true.

[ricksitterly]

Red5angel
You say things with implication that you are a brave, cold blooded, trained fighter who, if threatened, will automatically react as he was trained and neutralize the attacker using extreme prejudice. You do not start fights, but if someone takes it to that level, watch out because they will get exactly what they deserve and then some. They will think twice before starting another fight. Sort of like an "i am the judge, jury, and executioner" frame of mind. Bravo to that.

"I thnk part of the confusion lies in that you guys want to look at it from the legal point of view. I don't care how the law defines it, if the guy swings wildly and manages to put a bone through my brain and I die or become disabled, or the thousands of other possibilities in fight that end up with me dead or badly hurt, he is threatening my life by even taking the chance. I know full well if I am going to fight someone this can happen," - posted by red5angel


Yet, at the same time, I get the hint from the above quoted paragraph that you are much more afraid deep down, than the other guy will ever be. Your mind set is cowardly at best. Conflict and confrontations are a very normal, common occurance among young males. Yet you seem to be a person who, despite all his training, at the slightest sign of a confrontation, is so afraid for his life that he would maim or even kill a man rather than fight like a man and maybe have to take a hit or two in the process. Anyone can give a shot. It takes a man to take a shot. Win or lose, you walk away with the person's respect if you fight honorably. I have no respect for someone who would disfugure another human being because he's afraid of what could happen to his pretty little face. Your martial arts training is supposed to make you the more responsible person, who is more confident about himself and knows how to fight someone WITHOUT causing serious harm to the other person. As you said yourself, an untrained fighter is more apt to seriously injure the other guy just by swinging wildly. Yet if you seriously injure someone, knowing full well what you are doing in the process, you are fully responsible. That is why the law is harder on trained fighters (be it a boxer, kung fu practitioner, whatever).

"if the guy swings wildly and manages to put a bone through my brain and I die or become disabled," -red5angel

You make it sound like college aged guys out there are getting into fights and accidentally dealing fatal blows to each other on a daily basis. Fighting anatomy is fairly basic to understand. Most people know that hitting someone in a certain spot can kill them. A lot of regular guys will punch you in the face if you disrespect them. But will they punch you in the throat or thumb you in the eye ( or attempt to break one of your limbs )? I don't see a lot of that and I live in a rough part of town. (unarmed)Fights between normal people usually dont get more serious than a broken nose or cut eye. It seems the biggest thing you need to fear is maybe encountering someone who has the same values as yourself. One day you may find yourself in a fight with a guy who, like you, wants to teach anyone who messes with him a "permanent lesson". In the mean time, boys will be boys, and Joe will slug Bill in the jaw for dancing with his girl. But they'll probably come out of it pretty much intact, and probably end up doing it all over again the next weekend. People like yourself end up in jail. That is where your type of outlook is more justified.

Also, dont forget, there are a lot of people out there who know how to fight ( probably much better than you do )and love starting them. Lucky for you, many of them are already IN jail. But if you ever end up in there with them, your opinion of how well you can defend yourself will surely change after your first gangrape.

[red5angel]

so to be a man I need to be able to take a few shots and fight honourably?
Sounds cool, I might integrate that into my roleplaying campaign or something but this is the real world. Honorable fighting? What the hell is that?! Maybe we should trade shots, hey man, you hit me first then I will hit you? Whoever falls over first loses. But Wait! Not only that but to be fair, we should make sure we are hitting each other as hard as the other guy. No kicking of course unless you announce your intention to kick of course.

I didn't say cold blooded anything. I didn't say natural born killer. Accusations of cowardice against those willing to defend themselves as they see fit is in my view the act of a coward. As a matter of fact I might go so far as to say your desire to be "honorable" is exactly the source of fear I described earlier that creates laws and common moreality.

"Your martial arts training is supposed to make you the more responsible person"

No, my martial arts training is supposed to make me comfortable and in control of close quarters combat. Any sort of morality or ethics instilled upon me is not a direct effect of my martial training, although it's comforting to think so isn't it?

"Win or lose, you walk away with the person's respect if you fight honorably."

Maybe you just need to read the news a little ricksitterly. As soon as you are done reading this, go ahead and sift through the newspapers, channels and internet news sources to find all of the cases daily, where people are killed on the streets and in their homes. Once you have done that, then we can talk about whether those sorts of people really consider anything called "honor". christ can you get any more naive?

"Yet if you seriously injure someone, knowing full well what you are doing in the process, you are fully responsible."

Absolutely, and as stated I am fully willing to accept the consequences of any action I take.


"One day you may find yourself in a fight with a guy who, like you, wants to teach anyone who messes with him a "permanent lesson"."

If I have asked for it then I can respect that , however, if I haven't and you feel you want to harm me for any reason, then bring it on sister.

In closing rick, you need to do some growing up. First of all, I am not talking about your average street fight, if you had bothered to gain any clarification before going on your huge assumptions, you would have (or atleast read my posts) found out that most of those bar brawls and tussels, I have talked myself out of, because most of those people aren't serious about it.
So thank you goodbye, come back when you are welcome to discuss with the rest of the adults (in case you want to defend yourself against my accusations of immaturity, you should probably erase all of the boner related threads...;) )

[joedoe]

No, my martial arts training is supposed to make me comfortable and in control of close quarters combat. Any sort of morality or ethics instilled upon me is not a direct effect of my martial training, although it's comforting to think so isn't it?

But don't you think some sort of ethics should be taught with MA? I mean, if you teach someone dangerous, even deadly skills shouldn't you also be teaching them what the appropriate use of those skills are? Seems a little irresponsible otherwise. Kinda like giving every child a gun and allowing them to do whatever they want with them.

[red5angel]

joe, yes I do think that a certain level of responsibility should be taught with the martial arts but my hunch is that most people who will take away those sorts of lessons, probably already understand them anyway,and those that won't take them, wouldn't either way.

[joedoe]

Fair enough. Maybe then the teacher should be more careful about who they teach those skills to then? :)

[red5angel]

Joe, I think that is a much better much more viable option.

[ricksitterly]

I am no danger of becoming "mature" , and I never made any such claims, thank you.
But, at first, you did post your idea in a manner that DID apply to an average street fight, and spent the next few postings talking your way out of it and trying to redefine and change the stakes what you said.

I'm not accusing you of being a "coward" in the sense you are thinking. I'm saying you fight out of impulsive fear, which is dangerous and a sign of inexperience and lack of self confidence in your own ability to defend youself. When I get in a fight, I'm not afraid of being punched in the stomache and somehow triggering internal gas in the intestines to spontaneously combust,burning alive with flames coming out of my as$, and dying on the spot ( or some other ridiculous fatal wound). And, surprise, I'm somehow still alive today. Read my posting over again.

If you cannot defend yourself, or fight someone, without controlling yourself enough to at least not permanently harm the other PERSON than you are not a "mature" martial artist.


"if the guy swings wildly and manages to put a bone through my brain and I die or become disabled," -red5angel

OOOoh. I need to live in the REAL world.... is THAT where you walk around seeing guys get their nose bone accidentally stabbed through their brain on a daily basis ? Or when some guy swings wildly and, somehow, totally disables the other guy for LIFE. I've seen and done a lot of fighting, in the streets AND between martial artists. I have NEVER seen someone accidentally suffer these kinds of wounds. What you're suggesting is rare even on nation wide death/injury statistics. If there is no weapon involved, most fights between normal people (non-martial artists) are not deadly. When someone who is trained, but is irresponsible like yourself, gets involved, that's when people really get hurt. You did not respond to that part of my posting... where exactly are all these "fatal blows" happening in your average fights? I may live in a bad neighborhood... but I'm staying the he!l away from your neighborhood. I'll repeat what I said before :
You make it sound like college aged guys out there are getting into fights and accidentally dealing fatal blows to each other on a daily basis. Fighting anatomy is fairly basic to understand. Most people know that hitting someone in a certain spot can kill them. A lot of regular guys will punch you in the face if you disrespect them. But will they punch you in the throat or thumb you in the eye ( or attempt to break one of your limbs )? I don't see a lot of that and I live in a rough part of town.
(unarmed)Fights between normal people usually dont get more serious than a broken nose or cut eye. It seems the biggest thing you need to fear is maybe encountering someone who has the same values as yourself.

[carly]

your stated willingness to break someone's joint so that he can never walk again is a little disturbing to say the least. Anyone that controlled in a lock doesn't need to be crippled for life by completing it..

[Oso]

not that r5a needs any help defending his position but
rick and carly, you should take a little bit deeper look and maybe
read between the lines a bit.

r5a, sorry, hope i didn't step on your toes with that, I think
maybe I'm just getting a bit tired of knee jerk reactions by
the average kfo poster.

da mn, did I say that out loud.

[fa_jing]

I don't know what kinds of threats you or/and your family are subjected to, Red5. But I have to say you seem a bit paranoid - all this effort on cultivating a mindset for action - your chances are still pretty random. Heck, I say so because my brother was under a real threat, but did not move away from it, out of pride - then in a moment of belligerence put himself in a bad situation and ended up both beat up, and in trouble with the law.
You do remind me of my dad, who collects guns and thinks about gun rights and self-defense all day long.

Well I might be mis-judging you, because you seem just as passionate about everything. :)

[ricksitterly]

"not that r5a needs any help defending his position but
rick and carly, you should take a little bit deeper look and maybe
read between the lines a little bit" - originally posted by Oso



Hmmm..... OKAY! Oso, after reading what you wrote, I have seen the error of my "knee jerk" ways. It's so much clearer to me now. I have changed my views totally now, thanks to you, that was a mind swaying post Oso.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel


Guy are girl, if you punch or kick me I will retaliate, your size may reduce the quantity or quality of my retaliation but I am going to at the least give you a fat lip so you can go sit in the corner and think about what you have done.



And they say chivalry is dead!! :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by carly
your stated willingness to break someone's joint so that he can never walk again is a little disturbing to say the least. Anyone that controlled in a lock doesn't need to be crippled for life by completing it..

maybe... he could be reaching for a knife, stick, etc. and/or his friends could be on the way. In that situation, I say break the joint and get out of there.

[morbicid]

"maybe... he could be reaching for a knife, stick, etc. and/or his friends could be on the way. In that situation, I say break the joint and get out of there." - posted by sevenstar

Judge: Why did you break the 12 year old's arm???? Are you insane? You are a thirty year old man.

Defendant: His friends were probably on the way sir.

Judge: I see your point... they usually carry skateboards at that age too. case closed

[morbicid]

i just want to add that sevenstar is stupid. and dumb. they should make a new stronger word for sevenstar. stumb. Sevenstar is stumb. from now on , i will stand for the opposite of sevenstar.... bmuts!!!

[Mr Punch]

One of my regrets (and I don't have many) is NOT taking a guy out in a permanent wheelchair kinda way.

He walked up alongside me, grabbed my arm and pushed me into a doorway. I braced against the step, spun him round using his hold, straight head-on into a palm I aimed at his chin. It was a reflex: I didn't think. Thing was, it was raining and I had crap shoes which slipped, so the palm just knocked him back about 1 m/4ft or so, knocked him right off balance and shook him up.

Then thinking kicked in. I had a second or some to decide what to do. I decided NOT to follow up and take his head off (I had time, I could have kicked him in the nuts, or got a good kick to his head, or thrown it or anything really). I'm not really sure what my thought process was, maybe half fear of the law and half not wanting to kill/maim someone.

I was happy with my decision not to maim another human being. And that maybe he would have a chance to think about the consequences of what could have happened.

Turns out:

1) this guy was on crack;
2) he had a knife (which he then pulled);
3) he had already (and only just finished) tried turning over a liquor store with the knife.

If I had known this, I would have probably gone for a decisive blow, or just let myself go to town on him (sounds dramatic but I know myself and there was no-one around anyway).

The point is, I didn't. It had gone beyond reflex and I had no further information for a more reasoned decision. So I would do the same thing next time.

Maybe I'll end up stabbed. But I wouldn't wanna live with myself knowing that I really had finished someone who wasn't out to kill me.

Over-reaction lasts forever.






EDIT: SCRATCH THAT WHOLE POST!

Oh ****. As I was typing that last line, I just realised I no longer believe a word of that anymore... that's my reaction from years ago!

Hell, next time someone takes a pop at me physically they're going down.

Still don't agree with any verbals leading to a beating though, and I'd like to think I can exercise some restraint...

no wonder nobody reads my long posts...!:D :rolleyes: :(

[Mr Punch]

I'd also like to add that morbicid is very very special in a very very American Pie 2 sort of way. In fact the boy's a genius!:D

[Oso]

Hmmm..... OKAY! Oso, after reading what you wrote, I have seen the error of my "knee jerk" ways. It's so much clearer to me now. I have changed my views totally now, thanks to you, that was a mind swaying post Oso.

excellent. it must have been my eye chi that swayed your
opinion.



:D

[red5angel]

Carly, I am not going to be worrying about getting someone in a lock or a hold if it gets to it. I am not going to worry about holds at all.

Oso - no problem, I think most people here know me, like fa_jing says I am a pretty pasisonate person. Some are reading to far into my possible reaction to being attacked as the way I live my life, however, I don't live in a paranoid state, I am not worried, or do not worry about being attacked and I generally stay away from places or situations that an event like the kind we are talking about if it can be helped. That just seems like common sense.
It's not a matter of being paranoid so much as knowing how far I want to go before I get there, IF and if you notice that is a big if, IF it gets to a point where someone attacks me in the dark, or in my house after breaking in, then that is how far I am prepared ot go and I don't feel like I have the worng attitude. Do I expect to be assaulted or attacked? I have been before, but I don't imagine the house breaking scenario wil ever really happen. Here is a good example of what I am talking about:

I was walking home one night from work late, in the dark. There was a guy laying on a bench and as I approached he got up and obviously intoxicated, waddled in my direction. He mumbled something in coherent I kept walking and kept my eye on him. His hand started to reach for my backpack so I grabbed it and back handed him. He fell and I kept walking. Who knows what his intention was right? All I know is that he was intoxicated and invading my personal space. I didn't mame him and I didn't kill him, he was drunk and the back fist left him on the ground for as long as I could see him.

[Oso]

r5a, that's kinda what I was trying to point out.


I had an almost identical experience in Atlanta one time.
Except there were 3 bums and 2 of us. It was actually pretty
cool as we didn't have to do anything but push them in to each
other and it was pretty funny watching them all fall down.

[red5angel]

right, it's not that I am out to hurt or kill anyone, just that if it comes to a situation where I believe it is me or them it will be them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by morbicid
"maybe... he could be reaching for a knife, stick, etc. and/or his friends could be on the way. In that situation, I say break the joint and get out of there." - posted by sevenstar

Judge: Why did you break the 12 year old's arm???? Are you insane? You are a thirty year old man.

Defendant: His friends were probably on the way sir.

Judge: I see your point... they usually carry skateboards at that age too. case closed

Who said anything about a 12 year old? that wasn't in carly's post. regardless, if the punk comes at me with a knife, he's in for it. just in a slightly nicer way, as he's just as capable of cutting you as an adult.

[morbicid]

some little kid tried to take my kickball away from me at the park the other day. I executed a step side kick right into his stupid little face. He flew back about 5 feet and was crying. So i did a final jump stomping move on him and annihilated him. How am I suppposed to know what his intentions were, and it is worth me taking the chance..... I think not. Plus.... as mentioned before, his friends were probably on the way.

[red5angel]

I sense some sarcasm in your comments morbicid so I will approach your comments from that direction. Feel free to correct meif I am wrong....

First, if your punching kids smaller and younger then you and I were to see that in the park, I might get involved, stupid or not I don't tolerate it.

Second, you may be one of those people not getting what I am saying so let me draw you a picture.....

Playing kickball in the park and some kid starts a schoolyard scrap is one thing. Walking through that same park at night when some guy jumps out of the bushes and tells you he is going...scratch that, the minute he jumps out of the bushes its on in my opinion. Either way, these two incidents are two totally different situations. In the former, if I am a kid as well I may give the kid a sock in the mouth for his trouble, or tell the teacher. In the second, I am going for joints first, If I notice a weapon in your hands I am going to break your neck if possible and run like hell, let someone else clean up the mess.

[dnc101]

r5a,
We've all probably felt like that at times, and with some justification. But my advise is to not let your feelings override your common sense. If you are attacked suddenly or visciously, or clearly placed in a dangerous situation, then by all means take out your opponent decisively. Cripple, maim or kill if necessary. I do advocate a mindset of devastating response to sudden attack. But don't develope a mindset of 'I'm gonna take him out regardless'.
First off, regardless of how you feel about the legal system, it is a reality that you are going to have to deal with the law. Ignore that fact and you may well win the battle, but you'll lose the war. A better approach might be to train for that aspect of a confrontation as well as for the physical part.
Then there is the moral component. I doubt that you really would want to seriously debilitate someone who is merely obnoxious but not a major threat. That makes a good daydream, but is a lousy philosophy.
As for challenging your instructor, I'm not sure what you mean here. Questioning is one thing, challenging him to a fight would be senseless and counterproductive. And I'd guess that when sparing he'd be the one pushing and testing you. A good instructors skills should be apparent in many ways to anyone other than a begginer. Maybe it's just me, but one of my criteria in judging a good instructor is not that he beat the crap out of me!
That brings up the question of cowardice (I'll admit it- I don't like being beat) and paranoia (that allways comes up when you run across a lib who hates his father). I wouldn't say it is cowardice to feel the way you do. But I would recognize that fear is a factor when any of us feel that way. Fear is a natural emotional response to the possibility of harm or even unjust treatment. Fear doesn't make us cowards. The cowardice would be if we refused to acknowlege the fear and deal with its source. Not defending ourselves because we are afraid would be cowardice. So would over reacting solely on the basis of unreasonable fear of what might be (paranoia).

[carly]

that when you have learned some of these really effective martial arts you will feel more confident and capable of dealing with whatever may arise, and be less likely to over-react to a threat.

[red5angel]

dnc101 - On challenging, Sparring is a great way to find out, a few minutes of all out sparring. I say this because there are a lot of people out there who shouldn't be teaching in my opinion.
For example if I walk into a school and it looks like I can beat the instructor in a "fair" fight why shouldn't I be able to test you on it? I hear all the time stuff like, you haven't earned that sort of respect or whatever, but if you are running a business it is in your best interest to show prospective students you know your stuff.
For some, sparring isn't necessary, a few good techniques can go a long way in my opinion.

Carly - the problem is I don't see this as overreacting.

[Losttrak]

I'll admit something... I was always at odds with my natural viciousness. The ONE time I was nice in a combat situation... (in order to pull the blow to the back of his neck...) I had to be momentarily off balance. That was when I was most heinously kicked in the jewels that I was incapacitated for over a month. I literally was in the same position for a month.. unmoving... poppin steroids to help the healing... The day you have to crawl to the doctors office in a towel because of "being merciful" you will learn to be unforgiving. =p I vowed from that point that I wouldn't stop until the person is down. I wont have the desire to truly kill the person but neither will I fear for damage when I am beset. ****es me off when I just think about it. And girls... a nutshot in combat doesnt slow you down... I still beat the guy and it wasnt until 20 or so minutes later that I began chain-puking. Always have a backup plan...

[red5angel]

Losttrak, thanks for the example. Also, check your pm......

[carly]

Hi. AS for beating the instructor, try looking at it this way. Yes, he should know how to fight and be experienced if he is teaching.
BUT, I see the teacher as a coach - due to age, injuries, genetic limitations, size etc, he may not be as good a gymnast as Nadia Kominincy, but he may be able to coach a student to glory.
Look at them as coaches more than as competitors - you'll have far more people to learn from that way. A lot of great boxing coachess couldn't last a minute in the ring with their students.

[red5angel]

carly, you make good points, so if the instructor isn't in the shape to fight anymore, his best student should be right?

In any case there may be extenuating circumstances but I find it suspect if none of them will spar with you, even later after class or at another venue.

[carly]

I think your questions are good ones.
Just as a coach is there to coach you, the students are there to train, stay in shape and be healthy, and to HELP EACH OTHER learn how to realistically defend themselves against some future threat from OUTSIDE.
A school isn't a place to crate enemies or hurt people.
See it for what it is- these people can help you learn what you want to know and get to where you want in your bilities.
There are plenty of unfriendly people outside your school you can compete with or pick fights with if you must.

[carly]

places where people who get to know and like each other group together socially and bond. You have to enter a group dynamic like that a little slowly, and build up some trust with the other guys, let then get to know you. In the school syou mentioned, I'm sure that they'll have no problem sparring with you when you want to.

[red5angel]

carly, again your points are good but here is my view on this kind of thing. I don't go to socialize, yes it is nice to make freinds and they tend to take it easy on you in sparring every once in a while :) but I go to a martial arts school to learn to fight. Some people go to learn to defend themselves.
What happens if you go and "learn" to defend yourself then find out later on the stuff you learned is garbage? Hopefully your are only out some money and time, but in a worse case scenario, someone could get seriously hurt.

Now the way you approach an instructor could be a deciding factor in how respectful you seem. If I walk in all puffed up threatening to kick someons butt, I probably get a visit by the cops. If I walk in and explain my position and my theory, one should be willing to give me an effective demonstration. If you can't beat me in a psarring match, what is it you have to offer me?

[carly]

I take your point.
I don't know if I could defeat you in a sparring match, but I do know that i could teach you a lot that you don't know.
Would it be wise or in your own interest to ignore and discard that?
You'll get plenty of opportunities to test yourself in class, and you should be able toassess the realism of what the class offers by observation before deciding to join - you'll certainly know quickly enough once you've begun.
Finally, you're very very lucky to be learning MA now, and not in the past, when there was little to choose from, much of it was unrealistic, and you couldn't find out what was effective or not for years.

[red5angel]

Carly, absolutely not, and I may not be saying that a freindly challenge match is the end all to be all, I am just saying that it should very definitely be considered by anyone who instructs out there.

[carly]

Yes, believe me, red, almost everyoenwho has offerred a class has had some very badass types walk in and challenge him - it's a drag and it comes with the territory.
And just out of curiosity, did you walk in and challenge the gusy at the two schools that interested you?

[SevenStar]

I gotta go with red on this one. There is nothing wrong with a friendly challenge. Testing one's self has been a pillar in MA for years. The problem comes in when you make an arse of yourself - you don't have to be disrespectful. Matter of factly, you don't even have to use the word challenge. Visit the school and ask to spar with some guys. If you make short work of them, ask to spar with the instructor. Especially in red's case as he wants to compete. If he can outfight the teacher and students, chances are he's not gonna learn too much there that would help him any more in the ring. And they may not be able to give him the advice and direction he needs.

[Serpent]

I gotta disagree. You should show some respect in a new school. Get in there and train with them for a while. You'll soon know (within a few lessons) whether you can learn or not.

It's so arrogant to just walk in and want to spar.

[SevenStar]

not at all. Of course, I'm not gonna bring up sparring if they are working forms, though. when they spar, I will spar. you can visit and inquire about sparring. If they spar on a specific day, then spar on that day. That's not arrogant at all.

[SevenStar]

Also, you gotta remember that you may not want to train in their style at all - I have no desire to learn TKD, but I am getting ready to start sparring with a TKD guy I met at work because he's trying to get back into training, and I haven't sparred a tkd guy in a while.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Also, you gotta remember that you may not want to train in their style at all - I have no desire to learn TKD, but I am getting ready to start sparring with a TKD guy I met at work because he's trying to get back into training, and I haven't sparred a tkd guy in a while.

Sure, that's a private arrangement. But to go to a school and try to muscle in on their sparring is taking the ****, I reckon! ;)

[SevenStar]

as to carly's comment on friendship, I once again gotta agree with red. I don't train so that I can make friends. HOWEVER, admittedly, some of my best friends are guys I train with. We don't socialize during class, but after training with them, you can tend to get close to them.

Tonight in bjj, a guy came in - a guy I trained with about 7 years ago when we were in college. We rolled for old times sake, and talked a bit afterwards - It was like it was seven years ago, even though we're in our 20's now and haven't seen eachother in years.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Serpent


Sure, that's a private arrangement. But to go to a school and try to muscle in on their sparring is taking the ****, I reckon! ;)

nah, not unless you're an arse about it. But thoughts on that may vary from school to school, style to style. in bjj and judo, if you want to work out, feel free. If you want to roll with whomever in the class you want, say so. we're more than happy to oblige. In longfist, whenever people came in, they were kind of looked down upon if they did that, and it was always taken as a serious challenge instead of a friendly match. consequently, most guys never went through with the challenge, because they only came to train, not to make enemies. IMO, the longfist school was wrong for that.

[Serpent]

The way I see it is that people in a class pay to go and train there, they sho dedication to a school and a teacher, pay their fees and earn their place to learn and spar with the others there.

When some joe wanders in off the street and just expects to be able to jump in and spar then they're showing no respect for the school or the other students.

Turn up and watch a class or two. If you think you might be able to learn something then come along again and take a couple of classes, pay your fees, follow their protocol and etiquette. Then you can spar when they spar on a level with them. Then if you don't like it, go elsewhere.

[SevenStar]

That's part of the issue. If I'm already training bjj and judo, for example, my plate may be to full to also train karate, for example (not to mention that I may not be able to afford it.) However, there's no problem with dropping by a school on occasion for sparring. It give me chance to spar different styles, and them the same chance. We can talk about some type of fee, since I would be going there every so often - ntohing wrong with that. Or, you can work something out between schools. There's a judo class across the street from where I train bjj (not the judo school I attend) we have an arrangement - their studemts can come train with us when they feel like it, and we in turn can go there.

[ricksitterly]

This whole "challenge the instructor" thing reminds me of when I was getting into competition, and decided to seek a new school to learn at.... one that would teach me the more competetive aspect of MA training. (by the way, those of u who dont know, my main style is TKD, with a few years exp doing bjj) I was 16 yrs old, and had been training for about 9 years in tae kwon do at various schools. I walked into this new place with the best intentions. I had a humble manner, and really just wanted to learn. I accepted that I wasnt the best competitor out there. I remember having a pretty good talk with the head instructor the day before I began actually training at his school. I told him that I had trained before, but would really like to improve on my sparring, because my current school did not offer satisfactory tournament training. He said something to the effect of, "I'm sure we can accomidate you." And told me to come the next night, when the scheduled sparring class was, and he would work with me.

However, the next night, when it was time to spar there was a totally different vibe in the room. I remember having to spar the head instructor first. I started out half-heartedly bouncing around, using footwork, and throwing some kick combinations... just to sort of feel him out. Next thing I knew - Bang, I couldnt breathe and was on the floor. It was the hardest I've ever been kicked without going unconscious. So I get up, and continue sparring him as soon as I can breathe again (about 3 min later). A moment goes by, I throw another kick, BANG - he counter kicks me just as hard again. I went flying into a table. I sat the rest of the match out, but when I was ready, I still had to spar the rest of his students before I could go home, he said. So I sparred them, and this was the hardest sparring I had ever done. It was a more old fashioned school, so we didnt use any protective gear, and sparring with those people was like going to a tournament every friday. Everything was full contact sparring. Besides some basic target hitting, that was all we did. Beside the fact that you couldnt strike to the groin or use takedown/grappling moves, it was more like a street fight than a sparring match.
I later found out, from other students, that anyone who walked in the door to that school, who had prior training, was taken as a direct "challenge" to the instructor and his students. They told me that the first night I trained there, the instructor told them "I dont know how good this kid is, but dont let him make me look bad... you all better beat him up when you spar him." They would beat the living daylights out of any new student who walked in there wanting to learn. This was part of the reason why there were only 7 students there.... no one ever came back after their first class! I guess you can call it a "hardcore -- real deal tkd school". I stayed there for about a year and half. I left just before I turned 18. That being said, the man who runs it still makes less money than I do at 20 yrs old. He also has a reputation for being a real a$$hole among the other tkd schools. And he still has a whopping 7 students (maybe it's 8 now :) ). You see, in my area, most of the MA competitors know each other between schools, as we all move around a lot for different training, and usually are free and welcome to visit and spar at each others' schools. This guy, however, was definetly NOT in that loop.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I learned a lot while I was there, but was happy leave. He gave me a real bad example of how instructors should run their schools and train their fighters. He literally drove away a lot of people who probably had big potential, and also a lot of people who stayed were seriously hurt while training there. I broke a lot of my ribs during the short year and a half I trained there. Ironically, during my last months training there I was beating that instructor's ass half the time. I had a growth spurt that year :)

I've grown and learned a lot more from the older instructors, who were less physically involved in their lessons. You should be weary of an instructor who competetively fights with his students .... it is a sign of someone with an ego problem of their own, and more focused on their own self than on how the student is benefitting from this little as$ kicking experience. Usually they need to get a little older/wiser until they're ready to sincerely pass on knowlege. Maybe it was "school pride", but what good is a school without new students willing to sign up.

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, like with the boner thread, but that particular tkd school may be a good example of how a MA school would be looked upon by the local MA community if it operated in such a fashion that welcomed any walk-in challenges... whether they're a serious martial artist or some crack head off the street.

[red5angel]

7* is getting what I am talking about here, its not about walking in and muscling your way into a match, but asking to spar at some point with the instructor or atleast a top student. I don't think it's about "earning" the right to spar so much as the instructor earning his pay. Of course there is the attitude that some instructors don't need that money that bad, ok, so I move on to a different school.

All I am saying is that a prospective student asks to be shown that you know what you are talking about, it's not out of line, and it doesn't seem to be a big issue to spar a little or even just show a few good techniques.

Carly, in answer to your question about challenging people at my new school, I had already been sparring with a student of theirs for some time. Each time we met he alway smanaged to pull a few tricks out of his bag that threw me for a loop. that showed me that his school had something to offer me.

[red5angel]

dnc101 - I didn't see your whole post before I saw stumblefist cut and paste. I can agree that in any reaction we choose fear is a factor, my only argument was against paranoia, sice that is an assumption and not a truth. We all experience fear on some level in an attack or confrontation.

[dnc101]

Stumblefist- sorry you thought that comment refered to you. It was a reaction to fa jing's post (page 3, 12th down). Actually, I probably should have let it go any way, but he pressed one of my buttons with the paranoid accusation (even if it was directed at someone else). It is one of the libs (extremist liberals) primary methods of dehumanizing an opponent. I don't really know what his politics are, but that accusation usually gets my hackles up. In retrospect, over reacting to a comment like that probably isn't a good argument in favor of the point I was trying to make- that sometimes restraint is necessary.

Now, that brings up a relevant conundrum. If I go back and edit that comment out, would it be:
cowardice- hiding my lapse in judgement so no one will see it.
paranoia- fear of retaliation.
sensitivity- concern for the feelings of others.

I'll leave the comment. It's a good example of the fact that sometimes we do overreact. At least here the only consequence is that I'll probably get flamed by fa jing now.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
dnc101Well you know what they say: "If someone's not paranoid it means they don't understand how bad their situation is". :)

Good one. My favorite rejoinder is "Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!"