Mandarin duck kick and mantis

[carly]

I'm starting this thread in the appropriate forum.
In another thread, B. Tunks wrote:
"Mandarin Duck
Tanglang incorporates the Mandarin Duck kick, but it initially comes from another Shandong boxing style which isn't Ya Quan (Duck Boxing). There are many different versions of this kick/kicks (as it is sometimes done as a connected double kick). You will find Mandarin duck feet in boxing styles such as Wu Song Beaks his Manacles and Chuojiao Quan.
B.T"
My question is - which Shantung boxing style does mantis's mandarin duck kick come from? Thanks.
I don't see any kicks in Praying Mantis that don't also exist in other northern styles of Kung Fu.
And which kick (if it is one specific kick) is the Mandarin Duck kick?

[B.Tunks]

Carly,

As always, what we call Yuanyang jiao is not what some others may call it. Mandarin duck kick (as a single kick), is the standard 'spring sabre tip' kick which is found in most tanglang forms. its 'old' name is Yuanyang Jiao, it is most readily found in Zhaiyao Yi Lu. When perfomed correctly it curves around the thigh and into the groin at the last moment of extension.
Andy Miles also lists a correct example of the kick as performed in combination. Others perform it as a double wheel kick. Mandarain duck feet are found in many Shandong systems, Sun Bin Quan, Erh Lang Quan etc, most of which take their inspiration for the move from a character from Shui Hu Zhuan. This kick is certainly unique to Tanglang! (though not by name). The name 'Mandarin duck' kick is shared, the technique has evolved. Off the top of the head, I can think of at least three kicks which are unique to Mantis Boxing. How about some other peoples opinions on this matter?

[mantisben]

That looks like a Tiger-Riding Stance done Wushu-style.

[carly]

it's the flicking kick to the groin seen in Bun Bo after "pretty lady looks in mirror", then hands flick up as you do the kick, before skipping back into cat stance with the open hands up in a guard position?
The same kick shown performed by Ilya on Ilya's promo clip for his video on his website?

[B.Tunks]

Andy,

Yuanyang means 'mandarin duck'. The front leg is most definitely bent, it is just that he is sitting exceptionally low, as that photo is taken in terminating posture.
Mantisben, every stance done in chinese martial arts is 'wushu-style'. Wushu is just the PRC term for martial arts. I think you are referring to competitive wushu in this case. There are different frames for each stance, each with slightly varying foot and leg alignment. This is a traditional not modern stance as it has related yong fa (in other words there is an applicable purpose for the posture or motion) and is not just for good looks. I think the depth of the stance gives it a somewhat 'modern' appearance in this photo. Nearly all Stances in mainland chinese Tanglang are very deep.
Andy again: I am not too far from the master you speak, he has a very strong school in Sydney's China Town, they are going on strong. As for three kicks which readily come to mind, Beng Jiao Ti, Qian Gou Ti, and Wai Chuai (spring heel, front hook, outer treading) as the way they are delivered in Tanglang is specific to the art. also, Tanglang's 'spade kick' is totally different to the kick of the same name found in other schools.
Wheel kicks are connected kicks (second kick is spinning). Tornado kick is jumping inner crescent kick. Gate shutting kick is very close to yuanyang kick. It's just a variant of the name.
Hope this helps B.T

[B.Tunks]

Andy,

Theres a lot for me to think about in your post. I will get back to you shortly to try and answer your interesting questions.
B.T

[B.Tunks]

Hi Andy.

I might not be very helpful with alot of my answers to your questions, but here goes...

>From your visits to China, what other styles of mantis did you >see? Any similarities in training.

I have seen all of and learnt elements from most of the major schools of Tanglang. Qixing, Meihua (Taiji/Taijimeihua), and Liuhe. The most different from the others is Liuhe (6 harmonies). All of the schools share much of their Jiben Gong. Having said that, each school has its particular training specialties that are unique to it. The Tanglang training in China is very comprehensive and most sessions last at least 3 hours at the least.

> also want to encourage you to write some articles.

I would like to do so.

>I didn't have a high opinion of 7 star until I saw your site. I >suppose thats the curse of a popular system.

Well, I dont know about that. I certainly dont rate myself as any more special than most of the widely known instructors. Maybe you have only had the bad fortune of meeting poor instructors or students.

>You get your share of low quality instructors. What is the Kung >Fu scene in Australia?

Honestly? Very poor. Southern styles here are quite o.k but northern styles are poorly represented. there are of course, exceptions. For example, Chen Xiaowang resides here. There are a few great masters scattered here and there, but largely underground.


>Is their NHB or Sanda? Is karate and TKD still number one? Does >the average Australian know what kung fu is?

The average Australian certainly has some concept of it, usually very wrong. However, we have a m,assive asian community and they are well aware. Wing Chun is certainly very popular.
Sanda is budding, slowly. Australia is definately in love with Kick Boxing and Thai Boxing, at both we excell. NHB is also very popular. You would have heard of such Aussies as Elvis Sinosic, Stan Longinides, Grant Barker, Adam Watt in K1, UFC etc etc

>I'm interested because I'm an instructor and a mantis 'lifer" and I >want to promote our system in North America. Hows it doing on >your continent

Not good in the overall picture of things. There are only two real schools of Northern Tanglang in Australia. Mine and Jimmy Tsui in Perth (teaching CCM system). Tsui Sifu does quite well and is one of Western Australia's most respected masters of gongfu. He has his city's Chinatown on lock (gongfu-wise) and works hard for the cause.


>One problem we have in the US is that its too hard. Mantis is >almost a martial arts system for martial artists.

I agree. It is the same here and particularly for the mainland version. It is too labour intensive and time consuming.

>I think this is why TKD has such success. Its easy, basic >punching and kicking. Of course, this is boring to teach and >makes product differentiation difficult.

Perhaps. Also TKD is fun! Plus you can make visible progress in a relatively short time and can work towards a belt, which is very satisfying. I think TKD does very, very well here (commercially).
It is hugely popular, especially olympic TKD.


>Another problem we have is a long name. 7 star praying mantis >kung fu is a mouth full. Karate is just one word. Mantis one >word, but sounds like an extermination service.

Well, I for one would never shorten it. I am proud of the name/names, and if people cant say it, and that puts them off training, they are not worth teaching. Maybe you could use the generic translation, Mantis Boxing?

>What I envision is mantis becoming the next yoga or pilates >while maintaining its traditional integrety. What is working for >you out there?

Well certainly not that approach, though you may be onto something. What works for me is not teaching commercially at all! In fact for the last two years I have ditched that idea completely and kicked out 95 percent of my students. I am left with a very small group of good students and no time wasters, the majority of which are immediate family and close family friends. We train ultra hard and fight full contact regularly so it is not commercially viable. I will and occasionally do, coach privately if the student is right, but I am very picky on who I accept. A lot of money can be made from private sessions, its a trick to get them to return after all of the initial pain and discomfort. Later this year I will reassess my approach and it is most likely that I will return to coaching at least part time in the stable where I previously coached for 5 years. I will most likely teach traditional Sanda, Qinna and fundamentals, taking selected students with suitable personalities and good work ethics, into my Mantis Boxing classes.
I know it can work, but at the moment it's not where my head is at and I am unwilling (100%) to compromise the art in any way for commercial gain. I must say, I am a little jealous of those who do manage to maintain their integrity and make a
living from it.

>How many seven star schools are their in Australia? How is your >male/female ratio?

There are two real schools. Mine is currently closed door and Jimmy's is open.
When I taught publicly, I would guess about 20% were female.

So as you can see, I'm not exactly the best person to talk about the 'business' of Mantis. I hope as I mature and learn more about good business practice, I will eventually return to it as my sole source of income.
hope this helped a little,
B.T

[Shaolin Master]

AUSTRALIAN MANTIS

The Adam Hsu group is represented in Sydney by Paul Beach in Castle Hill.

The Hong Kong branch is also represented in Chinatown (Closed door).

In Sydney I also have my students who are also closed door as I didn't like the commercial approach neither. So I am part of that underground group (but amongst chinese societies we know who we are). Although I teach a range of different systems (with each student having specialisations).

Wei XiaoTang's Mantis is also represented by another individual E.Chen who also only teaches close door.

In Cabramatta, Sydney : The vietnamese CCK TaiChiMantis group is represented.

There was also a teacher in the Northern Territory (I remember from a Chinese Association meeting around ten years ago) I don't know if itis still there.

COMMENTARY

Southern systems have been in Australia for a bit longer (given the large cantonese/Teo Chew Community). Only recently have Northern systems reall evolved. However as northern systems don't doLion dance, don't in involve themselves in triads nor money laundering it doesnot makegood business.

Iwholeheartedly agree with you Mr. Tunks in the difficulty of commercialisation without comprimises.

Regards,

[B.Tunks]

Shaolin Master, hello again.

For some reason I thought you were in China, you seem to know Australia very well. Have you been here before or are you actually based in Sydney. Apologies for my ignorance.

>The Adam Hsu group is represented in Sydney by Paul Beach in >Castle Hill.

I am aware of Paul though have never met him. They do not exclusively teach Adam Hsu's Tanglang do they? Also his Bagua, Xingyi etc?

>The Hong Kong branch is also represented in Chinatown (Closed door).

There are several individual practitioners of the Hong Kong branch throughout the chinese community, and most are either not teaching or closed door.

>In Sydney I also have my students who are also closed door as >I didn't like the commercial approach neither. So I am part of >that underground group (but amongst chinese societies we >know who we are). Although I teach a range of different >systems (with each student having specialisations).

O.K, I guess you are in Sydney. I have heard of a particular coach from mainland china who teaches Tanglang amongst other systems. Perhaps you?

You are correct that there are many individuals (eg: Wei Xiaotang's student, Cabra's Taiji Tanglang etc) , that I have totally failed to mention (not to mention that I am unaware of). There are also a hand full Shandong and Taiwan natives across the country who have studied under various famous and not so famous masters. My first teacher of Tanglang, among them.
There are also of course, a few fools around who purport to know and teach Tanglang but are total frauds. Overall, however (especially when discounting those who coach only competitive modern Tanglang taolu), there are not too many Mantis Boxers here.

COMMENTARY

>Southern systems have been in Australia for a bit longer (given >the large cantonese/Teo Chew Community).

The first 'open' Wuguan in Australia was a Nan Tanglang school in QLD (as you will no doubt know). Southern Mantis is going very strong especially in QLD and Sydney.

>Only recently have Northern systems reall evolved.

I will go out on a limb and state that 'mainland' Tanglang wasn't even really seen here until the end of the 80's. Of course there were individuals who came here and knew some Tanglang, but nothing was publicly revealed.

>However as northern systems don't do Lion dance, don't >involve themselves in triads nor money laundering

(occasionally do)...

>it does not make good business.

Ha ha, some good observations. Northern Tanglang as taught in H.K do lion dancing though and subsequently (I believe), are very popular. The lion dancing schools are always patronised by chinese business and community and are never short on students or resources. Often the lions take precendence over the boxing, (as you will perhaps have seen in some Australian schools).

Thanks for pointing out those i missed. I also failed to mention the Taiji Tanglang academy in Melbourne, while I was at it.
Hope to meet you some day,
B.Tunks

[carly]

"All of the schools share much of their Jiben Gong. Having said that, each school has its particular training specialties that are unique to it. The Tanglang training in China is very comprehensive and most sessions last at least 3 hours at the least"
+
That sounds great - can you describe this workout?