Shaolin In Music [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Taijimantis

11-13-2000, 06:16 AM

I too am a practicing Buddhist.
While I agree that Buddhism is a religion of balance, it also emphasizes detatchment.

I have heard of certain sects of buddhists eating meat, but lets be realistic. The basis of a religion stressing loving kindness to all creatures does not condone the consuming of a sentient being.

There is a thing in buddhism called karma... that thing that comes around and bites you in the ass when you screw up. One does not have to be dead to experience it.

No devout buddhist I know of eats meat.
No where have I ever seen anything to show me that it is natural to eat meat. Human digestion is not designed to digest animal flesh, and for those who do eat meat (especially red meat) will find it in your intestines for up to two years after you stop eating it.

The majority of our teeth are designed for grinding and cutting, not tearing like fangs. Even our canines are small and rounded, not very formidible weapons for tearing the throats out of prey, or peeling flesh from bones.

In addition to this, for eating of meat to be natural, then killing must also be natural.
My teacher the Lama Geshe Rinpoche, former abbot to His Holiness the Dali Lama, filled me in on what conditions would be acceptable for a Buddhist to eat meat:

If a predator kills an animal, and eats its fill, then a human being could come and eat what is left without incurring any bad karma.

I do not know what sect of Buddhism you practice, and with no disrespect intended I seriously question its docterine. While I do not claim to know everything about it, I know enough to see that the statements you made just dont click. Perhaps I am misunderstanding?

Buddhism is not about financial gain, or about doing what is natural for this shell we inhabit. We follow the eightfold path and the four noble truths. We practice denial and detachment from our emotions in order to achieve oneness with all. Nirvana or enlightened existence.

NOT personal gain or publicity in this life.

Again I do not wish to be disrespectful, and I am hoping I simply misunderstand. Buddhism is a very tolerant religion. It does not claim to be the "only" way or the "right" way but "A" way. But there are enough people out there who still think that Buddhism is worshipping the little fat stone statuette. And that is simply not the case.

Namaste.

YoungForest

11-13-2000, 06:36 AM

good point..
interesting topic

Taijimantis

11-13-2000, 06:40 AM

Huang, out of curiosity, do you belong to the SGI group?

Shaolin Master

11-13-2000, 06:58 AM

Depends on school of Buddhist thought but Taijimantis is much more in harmony with buddhist ideals than the others.
Shi Yan Ming is what we call a new generation monk. Apparently not only did he eat meat in the like but rather he had a wife and child in china which he left completely when he left for USA.
Unfortunately most Songshan shaolin monks of the post Cultural revolution have evolved into materialistic individuals who rarely cultivate their ideals....

Anyway it is unimportant from a martial point. Shi Yan Ming is very prolific in his Songshan Martial style [Noting that this is only a small amount of what was real Shaolin] and is an excellent executioner of his martial style. That he is not the most "Buddhist practising" of monks "per se" and that he enjoys materialistic non buddhist practices is entirely his decision.

Songshan shaolin as practised by Yan Ming and his colleagues is limited to the fundamentals of the Songshan School as most were lost during the cultural revoloution years. It is for this reason that Liang Yi Chuen, Hai Deng, Liu Bao Shan and others of true knowledge returned with their small quantities of other material and that it has since attempted to be systemising but all in all it retained the Xiao Hong Quan Flavour which is Songshan Shaolin.

Authentic Shaolin Arts should encompass the essence of all arts.This is very rare nowadays.

Note that according to the sudden school of Buddhist thought "as it is the Buddha Nature that must be seen it may happen by the sounds of Waves, the chirping of Birds, The Stillness of meditation or anywhere...but at that instant Buddhist enlightenment or thought can be obtained ...not by practise but by understanding....at that instant whether the person was a butcher or a prostitute it is irrelevant for they would have commenced the sudden understanding of their true nature in this life an passed lives.."

Anyway

Yat Chai Chou Yuen "Yi Jie Sui Yuen"
ALL FOLLOWS DESTINED PATH

Regards

Shi Chan Long

brokenfist

11-13-2000, 10:25 AM

I'm sorry Taijimantis, but I believe that you've let your own personal beliefs overshadow the facts of nature. Human beings by nature are omnivores, we eat animals and plants. In nature, the main source of protein is animal meat. We need protein (amino acids) to stay strong and healthy. Several aminos are essential to staying healthy and are difficult to find outside of animal meat. Also you are incorrect about our teeth. Our front teeth and canines are made for ripping and tearing (meat), while our molars are designed for grinding and chewing (meat and plants). If we were to eat only vegetables, our tooth enamel would be thicker to handle the roughage of plant fibers. Also while our canines are small in comparison with most animals, there are reasons. We have opposable thumbs, which allows us to manipulate items unlike all non-primates. I mean no disrespect as I have no ill-will towards vegetarians, it's their personal choice (however I'm still a little worried about macrobiotics).

"I got no dukes" -the goat

Shaolin Master

11-13-2000, 10:34 AM

Teeth Hah (that's the beginning) but
Our intestines are too long though !!!!

Peace as always
Hehehe just for fun

Shi Chan Long

Taijimantis

11-13-2000, 04:13 PM

While I agree, Shi Yanming's personal life and martial being are two completely seperate entities, one probably having little to do with the other, my curiosity of the things I have read so far is still getting the better of me...

I will not dissagree that humans are omnivores. But I will not agree that we ate meat for our main source of protein originally. I cant argue that it happened, but theoretically, primitive humans were not necissarily as smart as we like to think. Hunting would have been a great task, involving much teamwork and the realization that failure was likely to be the case most of the time. Until technology advanced to the point where people could make successfull kills on a regular basis, nuts and seeds were likely the main source of food, along with whatever animal flesh could have been scavanged.

Most of the Anthropologists and Archaeologists I have at my disposal would agree. The hunting party came back empty handed more often than not.

The fact still remains that human beings lack many of the enzymes needed to efficiently digest most meat. Chicken and fish are much more easily assimilated than say Black Angus, but the physiology just isnt there like it used to be... why? Because we are still evolving.

It is the evolution of human beings that I am hinting at here. We, Like our martial systems have evolved over the years.

As for macrobiotics, I can tell you this;
My wife was diagnosed with cervical cancer--a common and slow growing variation that when not treated leads to infertility, and has the potential to spread and become dangerous like any other.
We went to a friend who is proficient in asian medicine and macrobiotics. FOur months later with a macrobiotic lifestyle, the cancer was gone. In my experience, coincidences dont just happen.

On Shi Yan Ming: It was my understanding that he renounced his vows when he took on a family, and then went back to the temple. I could be wrong (I often am ) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

On my personal feelings;
It is possible. I try hard not to involve them in matters such as these. I personally dont tell peple to eat meat or not to eat it. Personally I find it disgusting and horrible that a being as evolved and civilized as we like to think we are would take the life of another being just to satisfy a craving that can be satisfied elswhere in another way. But it is not my decision to make. If I was to tell people how to eat, I feel that I would be no better than the pro lifer who bombs an abortion clinic or shoots a doctor. Its just not right ya know?
Its not my Karma. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was not offended, and I hope I do not offend. I just feel that the influence of Western culture has spread too far. Ours is a society based on gain. We like everything big. Big cars, big houses, big bank accounts. I feel Our personal "freedoms" (which I am not even certain we really have here in the west--especially after the recent election) have interfered with our spiritual wellbeing.

However, as per the whole thing being "off the subject." in any way, let me toss out this juicy little tidbit; Shi Golin said "Kung Fu and Buddhism are one in the same."

May peace be your guide, may serenity light your path.

Namaste Brothers and sisters. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HuangKaiVun

11-13-2000, 05:15 PM

I think the Dalai Lama himself (definitely somebody high in the Tibetan hierarchy) eats meat - he was advised to do so by his doctors, as the Tibetan physique is accustomed to high levels of meat.

When one consumes vegetation, that is also consuming "life".

And the notion that humans "lack many of the enzymes necessary to digest meat" is incorrect from a medical standpoint. Our systems (including those of Buddhist vegetarians) have all the machinery needed to take a piece of meat and break it all the way down to simple amino acids, lipids, vitamins, and carbohydrates.

I belong to no official sect of Buddhism. But I live by the one important fact of Buddhism: one should live life to its fullest extent the way it was meant to be lived by a human being.

This is why I state that Buddhism isn't about denial and rules - it's about doing the best thing for yourself. And depending on your point of view, the best thing for yourself is often the best thing for everything around you as well.

In the ox-herding pictures of Zen, the final level isn't the blank page (denial). The final level is the return to the world - and the new appreciation for every little thing that goes on before our senses.

What happens when you meditate? You become acutely aware of everything as you try to still your mind. If you are meditating with others, you hear their breathing. If you are meditating alone, you observe the passage of images before your brain.

Were silencing one's mind the ultimate goal of Buddhism, we might as all kill ourselves now and go "flatline". That, in a way, is "oneness with all".

On the other hand, it's not as fun as being AWARE of the world around us - which separates us from the inaminate objects and even many animals that are made from the same materials as us.

Humans have the gift of PERCEPTION. Buddhism helps train one to appreciate that gift - and to use it to his best advantage in his limited stay on that state.

Only by being AWARE of everything around us can we realize "oneness with all" - and denial is but a stepping stone (tool) toward that end.

Taijimantis

11-13-2000, 05:58 PM

Again I wish not to offend, but your philosophy isnt one that I have ever heard before.
Since my teacher is rather high in the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy, I would think that I would have heard if His Holiness was eating meat. I would be interested to know where you get your information. I would also be interested to hear the scriptures you are basing your statements on.
Perhaps it is a denomination of Buddhism of your own design?
I do not presume to speak for all Buddhists when I say these things, but nowhere have I found that the job of a human being is to "live life at its fullest" Smsara is an illusion. To enjoy the fruits of an illusion is pointless. While I am not saying happiness is pointless, it just seems to me that you are taking bits and pieces of things and forming them to the way you find appealing. Again I am not trying to be offensive. Only to better understand your point of veiw. When you said you belonged to no individual discipline of Buddhism it made me wonder.

As pr plants being life... yes they are, but they are not recognized as sentient life. They do not have a spirit while they do have energy.
It has been my experience that when people present that tired arguement it usually means that they eat meat and they like the taste or otherwise enjoy it, and they do not want to stop.
I suspect this may be the case here.

Do what you like my friend. But I would be interested to see where you are getting your facts. The medical ones are heresay... on both parts. Like any statistic, I can find a number that will prove anything you want to see, they are all subject to interpitation. But your ideas on Buddhist life I find quite facinating.

Like I said before, its not my karma. Perhaps you are just a little young yet /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Namaste.

8StepStudent

11-13-2000, 11:24 PM

Hey guys. I just wanted an answer. That's all. I didn't mean to start a fight about Buddhism.

Shaolin Master

11-14-2000, 12:29 AM

1. Prajna Paramita Sutra - Diamond Sutra
2. The Red Surmon Sutra
3. Sutra of Hui Neng.

Whether you beleive that you are following the way or whether you do the way. Whether rules guide or mislead you.

In Buddhism it is taught to constrict mentality to train it up, then to let it go (as it has the prerequisite of understanding).Like Taoists use confucianism for youth Taoism for adulthood as the seemingly open attitude of taoism does not contribute good practice for youth.

In Buddhism by reverring Holy ones based on their position in the heirachy one may become like all else deluded. Just like reverring Buddha.

Keep constricting your thoughts it is good you may enter the path by endless suffering, death and rebirth.

In Chan Buddhism one enters through understanding and reason.

Anyway It is useless to talk about it with you as you may not understand.

Enjoy reading the above Sutra's if you do not have them ask me I will pass a copy to you.

Regards to you and enojoy your life.

But also understand that all individuals are part of the wheel as much as you are and that the closed eyed following of Sutras and ideals is just like that of all entities ...different but same. But I respect you for beleiving in something take care and regards to your teachers.

In reality I have no words to explain ...for it is only you that can understand

Regards & Peace

Shi Chan Long

For knowledge sake solely-
51st Descendant of the LingShu division of Chan (Hui Neng's Lineage)

The anatomy feature was for fun (thus all the smiles) lighten up relax.

brokenfist

11-14-2000, 12:55 AM

Taijimantis, thank you for the intelligent response. It's good to see a few coherent responses that don't end up in ****ing contests.
I was half-joking about the macrobiotics, when I was in Aikido, some of the students were macrobiotics, and would tell me that all my pains were associated with eating red meat. It was all in fun. Again thank you.

"I got no dukes" -the goat

Taijimantis

11-14-2000, 01:17 AM

I do not wish to provoke anything other than intelligent conversation.
I do not profess to have all the answers.
I think that the human body is a miraculous thing. I think that if we would just shut up and listen to it we would find ourselves understanding so much more!

As far as this post goes, there is no arguement, because I am not arguing. My opinion about Shi Yanming is that in MY personal view of Buddhism, if he is indeed commercializing, and profiting on the religion and his occupation and position within it, then it is indeed sad.

But I cannot say anything about his mastery of Kungfu. He obviously is highly skilled and a very respected teacher.

Again, peace and serentiy brothers and sisters.

Namaste

HuangKaiVun

11-14-2000, 07:59 AM

8stepstudent, don't feel uneasy. This is a great discussion!

Taijimantis, what you're reading from me cannot be found in any book or sutra. This is exactly what ShaolinMaster was talking about.

Just because somebody's actions and beliefs don't match up with yours (I'm not talking about Taijimantis in particular) does not necessarily make it less valid.

That is the Buddhist way.

Taijimantis

11-14-2000, 04:56 PM

That is correct.

While I never would say that any one individual is wrong outright, it is in my opinion (stress opinion) wrong for a human being to harm, intentionally, or through neglegence, another living, sentient being.

I never have been one to wholly and blindly devote myself to the study of scripture or sutra.

I find many of the "modern" disciplines of so-called Buddhism to be dualistic, and therefore contrary and conflicting with the very messages they are professing.

Buddhism is like a car. I guess if you feel it is necissary to travel in a Ferrari or stretch limo to get where you are going I can from my standpoint roll my eyes and shake my head. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I shouldnt, but I may.
As for me, Ill get where I have to go in my rusted out pinto, thanx.

Namaste
: /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

8stepsifu

11-14-2000, 07:10 PM

So buddists can eat the meat of an already downed animal......two questions

1. Could I employ the services of a pelican, a hawk, or a team of attack dogs to hunt for me?

2. Do animals get bad karma from eating meat? Do all dogs go to heaven only if they eat tofu?

3. What if your extra thankfull to the dead animal? What about plants? They are living creatures too, if you drive a car, your destroying living animals (cute ones) and destroying the Earth.

8Step Sifu

meltdawn

11-14-2000, 07:45 PM

Since we have a few different views of buddhists responding, Iâ€™d love to have the chance to ask some questions of you all. Let me state that I practice no religion, nor do I claim to understand the doctrines of any.

First, I would like to know your views on the evolution of Asian martial arts predominantly within religious communities. Is it sufficient to say that monks needed to protect themselves, then through the teaching and understanding of the classics also became healthier, so continued the training? Or is there a more esoteric meaning, like only one who knows death can live, only one who knows hurt can heal?

Second, is ritualistic behavior (i.e. burning incense, keeping buddhas, mantras) important to you and why? And if so, how does it benefit your martial arts?

Third, Iâ€™d like to know some opinions of the current state of relation between buddhism and emerging capitalism in China. On the surface, these two seem at odds with one another, like buddhism and martial arts. Is one doomed to be subjugated by the other in a cycle of birth and death, or will one rise to balance its opposite?

Meltdawn

Paul DiMarino

11-14-2000, 08:40 PM

8 Step Sifu,

I'm not sure if I'm getting this right as this is just coming from a few semesters of philosophy in college, but I believe animals can eat meat because they are... well, animals and their instincts tell them too. If you are trying to transcend from animalistic things, then you may try to transcend from animilistic temptations. (ie be civilized) For example, say you are getting into a crowded elevator, and the most gorgeous girl you have ever seen squeezes in infront of you. Every one of your senses is being invaded by this girl... Every natural instinct in your body will be yelling at you to test out her guard right there in the elevator, but denying those natural instincts for a common good is what being human or "decent" is all about.

Buddhists may look upon eating meat the same way... Sure, we are equipped for the job, our instincts are telling us to, and it's **** good, but to them it just isn't civilized and wouldn't be proper. It all comes down to a matter of choice; free will is a great thing. Some people choose to obey their instincts, others choose to deny them. Worst of all, some people are still slaves to their instincts. Mostly, we end up calling these people "convict".

Hope that made a little sense. I'm writing this while trying to woof down food for lunch at work. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Taijimantis

11-14-2000, 09:10 PM

I will answer your questions in order, to the best of my ability according to what I have been taught.

1. by "employing the services" of another animal to do your "dirty work" you are actually using the animal as you would a gun or bow. The animal is now a weapon, your intent is to kill your prey.
Karma is more than something that happens to you afteryou commit an act, karma involves everything taking place within you at that moment. Examine your intent. If your intent is to harm then the karmic outcome will be bad for you.

2. Animals gain karma just like human beings do. However, animals are not necissarily subject to allof the same rules we are. Your actions in your life will determine your existence in the next. Human beings are the only entities according to our teachings (I have heard of some Buddhist sects accounting for animals as enlightened beings) who can attain Nirvana.
Thus, an animal specifically designed for the hunting and consumation of flesh need not be subjected to the same rules as a human.
What was the animal'sintent in taking the life of its prey?

3. Being thankfull to the dead animal for what? For dying? This one I am not sure I understand. If you kill the animal and are then thankfull what does that accomplish? The wheel of life may continue, but we do not have the right to interfere with the individual being's learning process. We should not step in and take the life of something prematurely, as we do not know at what point in their individual learning process they are. That would be like playing a comuter roll playing game for like a year, and then have someone pull the plug or force the system to crash before you can find out the end... the lesson has not been learned and we may cause that being to go to a realm or return in a form they would not have otherwise. Does that help?

4. As for the plant thing I explained earlier that plants are not recognized as "sentient" life. I guess the simplist (though not really the most accurate) way of explaining this is though the plant has life energy, it does not have a soul.

5. Finally, yes, driving a car is an incredibly violent act. I personally drive as little as possible, especially in my truck. Ordinarily I will take my wife's car which is smaller and more fuel efficient. I ride a bike or I walk when I can. But I am still guilty. There are Buddhists who will not move at night for fear of stepping on things and killing them. Likewise it is intent. You cannot (according to my teaching) incur bad karma if you do not recognize something as a sentient being. That does not mean you can try and convince yourself that the spider in the corner is not a sentient being to justify smashing it.
Likewise your intent when you drive a vehicle is not to kill as many things as possible is it?
Though it isnt the best choice it is the greater good that matters.
We drive a lot to take my daughter(who has many neurological disharmonies) to her medical appointments and therapy. This is an act of love and compassion.
I drive to the donation centers where I give blood and palasma, it is simply too far to walk.
In this society it is impossible to get away without some sort of transport. Just remember the intent. And be mindful of the moment.

I hope these helped my friend.

Namaste.

Taijimantis

11-14-2000, 09:13 PM

Taiji Mantis@aol.com
Drop me a line, I can send you an exerpt of my books second chapter regarding the relationship between Martial Arts and Religion.

HuangKaiVun

11-14-2000, 11:17 PM

Meltdawn, I can only answer from MY perspective.

As far as martial evolution in my Buddhist mind is concerned, I learned early on that the physical motions of Shaolin kung fu point to deeper truths (can't be explained, but I'll take a stab at it: "Tao").

Throughout history, the Shaolin monks have realized that maximizing one's awareness and manipulation of the "Tao" can be effectively accomplished by constantly expanding one's kung fu repertoire.

Hence even today, Shaolin monks have been known to practice Western Boxing and NHB style grappling. To them (as well as myself), the source of the lesson is less important than the lesson itself.

I believe that ritualistic behavior is very important for ANYONE. Yet I don't do anything specifically (i.e. burning candles, etc. . .)

This philosophy is best summed up by the Buddhist who stated "My master is incredible. When he is tired, he sleeps. When he is hungry, he eats".

My "ritual" is living each moment fully.

As far as capitalism and Shaolin Buddhism in China goes, I would say that both exist in a symbiotic relationship.

I won't get into the details of it due to space constraint

Shaolin Master

11-15-2000, 02:56 AM

â€œChâ€™an (Zen) belongs to neither past, present nor future. It has always been the way it is, and it canâ€™t be expressed through words.â€

â€œEverything under Heaven, Be it large or small, important or insignificant, has its own particular place and when it arrives in its rightful place, why ask why ? That is just how it isâ€

â€œEnlightenment, Self Cultivation and our daily activities are all part of the same thing. It is esential to understand the fact of enlightenment, and it is the maintenance of this attitude that is self cultivation. It is not because of self cultivation that we gain enlightenment.â€

â€œBuddha nature is the original nature of all things. The true meaning of Châ€™an(Zen) is to gain insight into the entire universe as it is and to be one with the truth. â€œ

â€œBy seeking the Buddha, we lose the Buddha. In seeking Bodhidharma we lose Bodhidharma. The most precious thing there resides inside you - it is yourself. In pursuing external objects or entities we lose sight of the self.â€

Peace

Shi Chan Long

grasshopper

11-15-2000, 03:51 AM

I too am practicing the Venerable Gotoma's way and what I see is that alot of you are forgetting that it is a way of acceptance of others,thier spiritual AND personal beliefs.don't condemn any one for marrying,eating meat, etc.that's thier right and choice.Buddhas acceptance is what drew me to his teaching,frankly I got sick of all the other belief systems claiming thiers is the ONLY way.(kinda like the biasts of m/a systems in here)any ways just respect the paths of others and you'll make yours richer.
thanks,bless you all.

"stop trying to hit me and HIT ME"

Taijimantis

11-15-2000, 04:29 AM

I stressed over and over that what I was saying came from my teaching...

If I offended I apologize.

I do need to add that though Buddhism is accepting, it is not a free ticket to do as you will.

Karma Brothers and sisters!

Im done.

Namaste,

HuangKaiVun

11-15-2000, 04:32 AM

Shaolinmaster, we are on the same wavelength.

8stepsifu

11-15-2000, 06:05 AM

By the way, what does "Namaste" mean? What language is it in?

Also in John Steibeck's "Of Mice and Men" the big retard wouldn't have been guilty of petting those animals to death because he was stupid because his intent was to love them.

Various people view the whole evil and intent thing differently. Some people would view a well meaning person that does great harm as good, while others consider a scrooge that picks up a baby to make it shut up to show "love" for the child through action. Two different views, best not to be too attatched to either of them.

Namaste- cuz its nasty

8Step Sifu

Taijimantis

11-15-2000, 07:16 AM

Namaste is the sanskrit greeting/departure translating roughly to "The divine spirit within me bows or honors the divine spirit within you."
Perhaps someone else has a better way of wording it.

Taijimantis

11-27-2000, 07:10 AM

I was thinking about this post the other day. The way the conversation turned to what is appropriate behavior for a Buddhist... Something about the whole vibe of it does not sit well with me. Believe me brothers and sisters I do not do this to be "right" and prove others "wrong."

No matter how much one claims to (or for that matter actually does) study the Dharma, that does not make the killing of sentient beings any less an atrocity. I have been very saddened by the posts that I have seen here on occasion. and it is with this state of mind that I write this.

There is a simple monk who once said:

"There are cases of people who are very intelligent and have great knowledge of the Dharma, but this knowledge does not affect their minds. They do not put what they know into practice. The teacher becomes a role model and source of inspiration for our practice. It is possible to develop strong convictions by reading texts related to the practice of compassion, but when we meet a living person who has practiced it and can who can teach us the practice of compassion from his or her own experience, it inspires us more powerfully."

This whole debate on what is right and what is not right for a devout Buddhist or monk should not be the issue. We should not be defending our positions. What I see is the same arguement I get whenever someone tries to tell me they are right for doing whatever it is they do in their lifestyle that injures a sentient being, be it eating meat, partaking in the use of controlled substances or whatever. It simply means "I dont want to change my behavior, and I am not going to."

I beg you to meditate on these things. Those of you who profess to be practicing Buddhists please remember that there is more to being a buddhist than wearing beads and saying "Om." It appears as though there were egos that got involved,(mine included)and were concerned about who was going to be "right." Buddhism is a path. It does not need to be a path littered with dualistic chanting and ritual, nor does it have to be a path cluttered with aloof apathy of total detatchment. Detatchment does not equal love, and one does not need to be detatched from love to achieve freedom from suffering.

Remember that we are here to gain release from this life of suffering, and to aid other sentient beings in doing so. The same simple monk taught that One does not have to be a master to be a teacher. One should always be humble enough to learn from those less wise then themselves.

That Simple Monk is the fourteenth Dali Lama.

May peace be your guide and serentiy light your path.

Namaste.

8stepsifu

11-27-2000, 07:39 AM

I come from a long line of meat eaters. My culture and religion permit and encourage me to eat meat. I don't like too much red meat, but I got to tell you that thanksgiving turkey is still in the fridge and I love grippin some flesh and tearing it off the bone like a bird and devouring it. Sentient being or not, birds are retarded and decendents of dinosaurs and deserve to be punished. If we don't show em whose boss, they might evolve back and we all know how that would be thanx to Jurrasic Park. I am always thankfull to the animal that is becoming part of me. I know someone said, What good will that do, it's dead. Well thats at least respectfull. Sentient or not, we are not seperate being and are all part of the whole, I'm just stacking up some energy here before I die and release it back into the universe. You can say our four legged friends have souls, but trees hurt when their cut and if you step on bugs, your just as bad as someone knifing grandmothers in nursing homes according to karma. Lets be realistic, get back in our minivans, get on the car phones and run over slow children at play

8Step Sifu

Shaolin Master

11-27-2000, 07:45 AM

Brother Mantis thank you for pondering and providing us with a touching and realistic view (This is now Buddhism..to Ponder in one's mind and understand through thought rather than regurgitation). Your Teachers have placed you in the correct mindset to follow the path, one day you will develop the understanding of that path as no path but the path built before building the road that leads to it even though indeterminably it cannot be found.

My respects to you, fellow brothers and Buddhist teachers

8 Truths

Buddhist Disciples! At all times, day and night, sincerely recite and bear in mind these eight truths that cause great people to awaken.
The First Awakening: The world is impermanent. Countries are perilous and fragile. The body is a source of pain, ultimately empty. The five skandhas are not the true self. Life and Death is nothing but a series of transformationsâ€”hallucinatory, unreal, uncontrollable. The intellect is a wellspring of turpitude, the body a breeding ground of offenses. Investigate and contemplate these truths. Gradually break free of death and rebirth.
The Second Awakening: Too much desire brings pain. Death and rebirth are wearisome ordeals, originating from our thoughts of greed and lust. By lessening desires we can realize absolute truth and enjoy peace, freedom, and health in body and mind.
The Third Awakening: Our minds are never satisfied or content with just enough. The more we obtain, the more we want. Thus we create offenses and perform evil deeds. Bodhisattvas donâ€™t wish to make these mistakes. Instead, they choose to be content. They nurture the Way, living a quiet life in humble surroundingsâ€”their sole occupation, cultivating wisdom.
The Fourth Awakening: Idleness and self-indulgence are the downfall of people. With unflagging vigor, great people break through their afflictions and baseness. They vanquish and defeat the four kinds of demons, and escape from the prison of the five skandhas.
The Fifth Awakening: Stupidity and ignorance are the cause of death and rebirth. Bodhisattvas apply themselves and deeply appreciate study and erudition, constantly striving to expand their wisdom and refine their eloquence. Nothing brings them greater joy than teaching and transforming living beings.
The Sixth Awakening: Suffering in poverty breeds deep resentment. Wealth unfairly distributed creates ill-will and conflict among people. Thus, Bodhisattvas practice giving. They treat friend and foe alike. They do not harbor grudges or despise amoral people.
The Seventh Awakening: The five desires are a source of offenses and grief. Truly great people, laity included, are not blighted by worldly pleasures. Instead, they aspire to don the three-piece precept robe and the blessing bowl of monastic life. Their ultimate ambition is to leave the home life and to cultivate the Path with impeccable purity. Their virtuous qualities are lofty and sublime; their attitude towards all creatures, kind and compassionate.
The Eighth Awakening: Like a blazing inferno, birth and death are plagued with suffering and affliction. Therefore, great people resolve to cultivate the Great Vehicle, to rescue all beings, to endure hardship on behalf of others, and to lead everyone to ultimate happiness.

These are the Eight Truths that all Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and great people awaken to. Once awakened, they even more energetically continue to cultivate the Path. Steeping themselves in kindness and compassion, they grow in wisdom. They sail the Dharma ship across to Nirvanaâ€™s shore, and then return on the sea of birth and death to rescue living beings. They use these Eight Truths to show the proper course for living beings, causing them to recognize the anguish of birth and death. They inspire all to forsake the five desires, and to cultivate their minds in the manner of Sages.
If Buddhist disciples recite this Sutra on the Eight Awakenings, and constantly ponder its meaning, they will certainly eradicate boundless offenses, advance towards Bodhi, and will quickly realize Proper Enlightenment. They will always be free of birth and death, and will abide in eternal bliss.

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 11-28-00 at 12:09 AM.]

Shaolin Master

11-27-2000, 08:02 AM

Has anyone ever Heard that Red meat according to some thought in excess would place the organs in disharmony where the Liver (Anger) <Wood element> is placed under stress thus causing anger frustration and even violent intent at extremes.

Anyway it is up to whoever to do whatever (As buddhists we accept all and provide compassion for all as well be it from non understanding suffering or delusion.....only you are responsible for your actions and outcomes from this life and past lifes.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 11-28-00 at 12:12 AM.]

brokenfist

11-27-2000, 10:34 AM

I just get angry when I don't get red meat, or beer.

"I got no dukes" -the goat

Taijimantis

11-27-2000, 02:54 PM

I was very dissappointed in your response.
I am a native American. My ancestors too lived from the flesh of the land. And while it is my opinion that we have evolved to the point where we no longer have to do it(as you said lets hop in our minivans) because we can simply drive to the grocery store or what have you, that is not where my concern lies...

Whether or not you eat meat isnt the issue. It was my concern for Buddhist principle being misunderstood.

You however seemed to take great pleasure in being as graphic about something I feel strongly about as possible. And your casual use of words used to describe people with disharmonies was very disheartening. I make no secrets about having a disabled daughter. Firsthand I can tell you "retarded" people are not "stupid" people. Thus to compare someone like my daughter to a bird in intelligence is quite offensive, and innacurate.

My skin is thick, and I recognize tht you are probably not old enough yet to realize what you are doing.

As Shaolinmaster said, we determine our own Karma. Whether or not you believe it, thats the way it goes. You or I have little say in the matter.

Something to consider

Taiji Mantis

8stepsifu

11-27-2000, 03:35 PM

Sorry,

I didn't mean to offend your daughter. The truth is that I forget that there are people behind this forum. This place is a tool and I've used it to offend people in a way that I would never do in real life. Again I apologise. Yes, I did make a desriptive sentence of eating meat. Animals can eat meat and I am an animal. I feel deep regret whenever someone wastes meat or if my eyes are bigger than my stomach, but I like eggs in the morning and fish in the evening and it's good. Being a vegitarian is ok, but it's not for me. Personally a peacefull spirit is more important to me than following any kind of dogma. When a mosquito bites me, she risks getting slapped and I expect that any animal I hunted......oh yeah their defenseless and caged inhumanly, ok you got me thinking, I'll stick to fish from now on.....and lunch meat because it didn't come from an animal anyway.

BTW- Too much red meat makes you like Rush Limbaugh.

8Step Si

Taijimantis

11-28-2000, 06:39 AM

I stopped coming to this place for several months because I found myself becoming to wrapped up in the flaming and found not enough of what I felt was legitimate debate and conversation.

After some reflection, I have returned. There were some events in my life that taught me patience, and I forgot that just because I cannot see any of you on my monitor, does not mean that I am not interacting with you firsthand. Since then I try very hard not to take anything too personally. However, when it comes to certain things, I take it upon myself to remind others that they do the same too.

My daughter was born completely normal. She scored high an all of her tests, and began to develop words and recognition skills like any other "normal" child.
Immediately following her first string of standard immunizations, Marissa began to have seizures.
Because we didnt know any better her mother and I allowed more immunizations to be given.
Marissa went into status (seizing without stopping) with each seizure we lost a little bit more of her. Her body ceased to follow the directions her little brain was giving. The anti-convulsant drugs damaged her liver and kidneys.
Through all of this she mantained significant development mentally and emotionally. She is quite aware that she is different than other children, and often gets frusterated because she cannot do the same things.
Now at age three, the little girl doctors said would be nothing but a "vegetable" can crawl, climb steps, and even fed herself for the first time. Unfortunately it was only once. She cannot talk, walk, use the bathroom or feed herself regularly. And sadly she knows it.

Retarded is an ugly word. It is often used as slang for "stupid" much like "gay" is often regarded. I too was guilty of using expressions like this frivilously. But with my child, I suddenly became aware that you never know who you are talking to.

Like I said, I dont care if anyone eats meat or not. My concern was with the possibility that people were not understanding Buddhism's ideal of compassion. I have contributed in act and spirit for my Native Brothers and Sisters to regain their Tribal fishing rights, and to live in the "old ways" should they desire. I have no problem with that. And I apologize to you, for after reading your post again, I see that much of it was written with a humorous (allthough a bit sarcastic) flair. I should have seen it.

Do not worry about offending my daughter. For one she isnt allowed to use the computer (cept for her Mr. Ptatohead and "Lil Critter CD's) so she wouldnt see it anyway. And I am not really upset or offended. I realize the harmful intent wasnt there, you were not trying to be mean.

No hard feelins'

Namaste

8stepsifu

11-28-2000, 07:12 AM

But I am a little ****ed, after thinking about animals being unessisarily killed, I began to get sad and I at a completely vegie lunch. Curse you! For Dinner I had fish (at least it wasn't a mammal. Anyway I'm like half vegitarian now thanx to you, I'm hoping I'll desensitize and snap out of it, but for the time being, no more mamals for me. Or birds..hmmmph Not to say that I'll never eat meat again, I and many others just eat too much of it for it to be beneficial or justify killing something else. (Oh god! I'm one of them

8Step Sifu

Mr. Nemo

11-28-2000, 08:18 AM

Back to wu-tang...as far as I know RZA still studies with Shi Yan Ming. Method Man and ODB both studied northern shaolin at one time, I hear, but not with Shi Yan Ming.

What's wrong with a shaolin monk posing with Wu-Tang?

Taijimantis

11-29-2000, 12:08 AM

same as above...

RokKyu

12-02-2000, 01:34 AM

I'm a christian and i don't eat meat....thought you could use a vegetarian in the conversation.

origenx

12-03-2000, 09:04 PM

That's why I think it's important for the intent of the law to be included with the law. Because what's important is the intent, not the letter, of the law. So, there are many speculations why meat is prohibited or avoided (cruelty, health, etc.), but what was the original reason why???

Anyways, I think red meat at least has clearly been shown to have negative health effects, particularly on your colon. Just ask any pathologist who's seen a couple. As for meat in general, it is an acid-producing food upon digestion, which is currently hypothesized to possibly leach calcium and minerals out of your bones from your bloodstream, amongst other things. Which might help explain America's relatively high rate of osteoporosis compared to other countries that actually have lower rates of calcium in their diets.

Anyways, on the other hand, it seems most of the hi-level Eastern masters tend to be vegetarian. I think perhaps once your energy system reaches a high state, you actually function better without meat. But, until then, for the ordinary individual, you might still need meat more.

And so I myself am moving in that direction as a personal experiment. I've sorta been tapering off meat for a bit now and actually haven't eaten any in the past 2 days now in fact! Not really from willpower, but just a natural progression where I don't feel the desire to eat meat. So, we'll see..

Incidentally, the Songshan Shaolin monks helped an ancient emperor in battle and were subsequently granted an exemption by him from the Buddhist meat/booze prohibition (regardless of the fact that an emperor in reality has no spiritual authority). This, and in fact fighting/killing to begin with, is actually a corruption of true Buddhism. But I don't know if this exemption still officially stands or not with the Shaolin Temple.

brokenfist

12-04-2000, 06:50 AM

If you want to see a master fighter, get between me and a sirloin. Seriously, lay off the meat bashing, please. It's your choice whether or not you choose to eat meat. As for the studies on the effects of meat on the body, they're still inconclusive. There are simply too many contradicting studies.

"I got no dukes" -the goat

Taijimantis

12-04-2000, 10:25 AM

I sincerely apologize if you feel you have been slighted.

I was unaware that there was any "meat-bashing" going on. For my part I was simply asking what is the proper behavior for a Buddhist, especially a devout buddhist like a monk, who has taken vows.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel so irritated by the postings here?

As for me I do not care if anyone eats meat or not. I was only concerned with those professing to be Buddhist, missing the point of cultivating bodhichita. That is to think of all sentient beings, friends, family, indifferent people, enemies , or animals as your mother. Because as a Buddhist one would believe that because of our infinate past lives, the possibility is great that any one of these beings has been or will be our mother in one of them.

You wouldnt eat your mother, would you? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is how you cultivate compassion. Envision the unconditional love a child has for its mother and apply it to all sentient beings.

Again I would look to myself to understand why I was so offended.
As for me I offered no offense. So again I apologize if you felt I had attacked you.

Namaste.

GeneChing

11-05-2010, 10:20 AM

Slight OT but got to give it up for the ttt.

Irepress, 'Shaolin Knights' -- Song Download (http://www.noisecreep.com/2010/11/05/irepress-shaolin-knights-song-download/)
Posted on Nov 5th 2010 12:00PM by Matt Debenedictis

The ever-evolving, trance-inducing Irepress have released the new song 'Shaolin Knights,' and it's available for free download. That's right, the band's first studio output with new guitarist Benji Gram -- who before being tapped was the band's tech and roadie -- is just being given to you.

On the first note, 'Shaolin Knights' feels different than the space-prog that dazzled 'Sol Eye Sea I.' But for the lovers of that sound, fear not. The sonic meddling comes in heavy later in the track. 'Shaolin Knights' features vocals from Jesse Korman, formerly of the Number 12 Looks Like You, with keyboardist Jarrett Ring tackling the melody, making this close to the most lyrics the primarily instrumental band has had since their frontman-laden beginnings.

According to Irepress, this is a return to their roots and is dedicated to all to the family members and friends that "that made us who we are and the days we will never forget. We'll be here forever." With the open-fisted chorus of "when we were young, there were no complications," that sentiment cannot be missed.

The band is about to head out for a long tour in Europe, but they'll return to the States for the eighth annual Last Night on Earth show in Cambridge, Mass. with Constants and Caspian on Dec. 30.
No, I didn't download it.

For more Kung-Fu Music... (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36569)

GeneChing

11-17-2010, 10:40 AM

Slightly OT, but here you go:

Is it a rapper? Is it a Kung Fu expert? It's both! (http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/entertainment/music/s/2082403_is_it_a_rapper_is_it_a_kung_fu_expert_its_ both)
November 17, 2010
http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/sbres/767.$plit/C_67_article_2082403_body_articleblock_0_bodyimage .jpg?17%2F11%2F2010%2015%3A01%3A59%3A739

IT doesn’t get more original than this. Rapper with a difference, Mr ShaoDow, performs his unique show combining his musical and martial skills at The Back Line, in Guildford, on Tuesday at 3pm.

At the age of 18 he travelled to China to learn Shaolin Kung Fu, an art that has influenced his music heavily ever since.

His love for song writing stemmed from his travels and after becoming tired of hearing the same regurgitated negative messages and seeing same the uninspiring, egotistical rappers, he decided that rather than sit around and complain, he would stand up and instigate change.

ShaoDow continued with his relentless approach while studying in Oxford. His debut song, Look Out There’s A Black Man Coming, made fourth in Oxfordshire’s Top 20 Chart for 2007, coming after The Foals and Radiohead at second and third respectively.

To date, he is known to work a wide range of genre including, dubstep, funky house, hip hop, rock, jazz, grime, etc.

He solo released his first three singles, The Grime Single, Look Out the Single and R U Stoopid!?, to all major download sites and now travels the country selling his EP That’s MR ShaoDow To You.

He recently appeared on Tim Westwood’s BBC 1Xtra show and is known to use his talents to help with charitable organisations including Love Music Hate Racism, the Mouth Cancer Foundation and anti-bullying campaigns with young people.

The event at Backline will also feature DJ Jeepa, Stevey Jay and MC Deeflux.

Tickets cost £5 in advance, £7 on the door and admittance is 18+. For advance tickets visit www.mrshaodow.com/shows.

I'm changing this from Shaolin Monks in Music Videos to Shaolin in Music

GeneChing

05-07-2019, 07:59 AM

Strangely captivating...

Beautiful Tibetan Musical Notations Visualize the Rise and Falls of Buddhist Chants (https://mymodernmet.com/buddhist-tibetan-musical-notations/)
By Sara Barnes on April 30, 2019

https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/tibetan-musical-notation-1.jpg
Photo: The Hum

Musical notations can go far beyond what is indicated on the page. For Tibetan Buddhists, these figures have religious importance that represent sacred sounds and ceremonies that have been passed along for generations. Visually beautiful, the sweeping notations help to shape their rituals by offering other forms of devotions, ways to ward off “feral spirits,” as well as summon divine figures.

For those that don’t understand the meanings of the intricate musical notations, they seem to resemble tiny landscapes on paper. The peaks and valleys, however, describe a myriad of instructions—from rhythmic patterns to instrumental arrangements. The symbols are a guide for the ritual performance; music is understood to be paired with the likes of “chanting, visualizations, and hand gestures.”

The Yang tradition is considered to be one of the most revered and elaborate traditions in Tibetan music. Using the Yang-Yig system of notation, we can understand the essence of the music by the marks. “The chant consists of smoothly effected rises and falls in intonation, which are represented by complex curved lines,” The Schoyen Collection notes. “The notation also frequently contains detailed instructions concerning in what spirit the music should be sung (e.g. flowing like a river, light like bird song) and the smallest modifications to be made to the voice in the utterance of a vowel.” Sung at a low pitch, the pace is meant to linger to allow for “full expression of the chanted text.”

Tibetan Buddhist musical notations are beautiful symbols of devotion.

https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/tibetan-musical-notation-2.jpg
Photo: The Schoyen Collection

The elaborate marks describe rhythmic patterns and instrumental arrangements, and they’re also a guide for the ritual performance.

https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/tibetan-musical-notation-3.jpg
Photo: Jo De Baerdemaeker

The symbols are a guide for the ritual performance; music is understood to be paired with the likes of “chanting, visualizations, and hand gestures.”

https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/tibetan-musical-notation-4.jpg
Photo: Jo De Baerdemaeker

Watch Tibetan monks perform amazing throat singing (a form of chanting) below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvyhxY54M3I

I love Tibetan chanting.

GeneChing

12-23-2020, 09:35 AM

I remember after a zazen session at Tassajara Zendo, the leading monk asked the question 'why do Buddhists chant?' and one of the participants answered 'because they can't sing on key.'

Devil horns meet sutras in Taiwan's Buddhist death metal band (https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/2020/11/26/devil-horns-meet-sutras-in-taiwans-buddhist-death-metal-band.html)
SEAN CHANG
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Taipei, Taiwan / Thu, November 26, 2020 / 07:03 pm
https://img.jakpost.net/c/2020/11/26/2020_11_26_107981_1606383467._large.jpg
This picture taken on October 18, 2020 shows members of Taiwanese death metal band Dharma practicing during a rehearsal in Taipei. (AFP/Sam Yeh)

The gig began with a nun chanting on stage but suddenly erupted into a wall of noise unleashed by distorted guitars and screamed sutras -- the unique sound of Taiwan's first Buddhist death metal band.

The island has a vibrant metal scene but few outfits are quite as eye-catching as "Dharma".

The band aims to deliver enlightenment via the medium of throaty eight-string guitars and guttural roars.

Dressed in robes -- black, of course -- they use traditional Sanskrit sutras as lyrics. But everything else screams death metal, from bloody face paint on stage, to growled vocals, relentless riffs and double-kick blast beats.

Founder and drummer Jack Tung first came up with the idea 14 years ago after listening to a recording of Tibetan lamas reciting sutras.

"The way it's sung is like in metal, with some voice distortion," he told AFP, referencing the often throaty low nature of Tibetan chanting.

"This is very similar to death metal music which I like."

Get behind me Satan

On the face of it, death metal and Buddhism might not appear to be the most natural of bedfellows.

Early death metal bands -- and to a more significant extent their black metal cousins -- often reveled in Satanic and occult themes.

While many were simply trying to shock, some bands -- especially out of Scandinavia -- were committed Satanists or vehemently anti-religion.

But like any genre, the scene evolved to welcome a vast array of views and philosophies.

Miao-ben, the Buddhist nun who opened a recent Dharma gig in Taipei with traditional chanting, said she had no issue taking the stage alongside such music.

"Buddhism is not set in form. Having Buddha in our hearts is more important," she told AFP.

Unlike more dogmatic faiths, she added, Buddhism is syncretic.

"This is just another form of Buddhist sutra ceremony," she said of the set-list.

'Be respectable'

Bringing Dharma together was not easy.

"I asked many people and nobody wanted to be in a 'religious' choir," laughed Tung, a practicing Buddhist.

He decided to work on the songs first, primarily with guitarist Andy Lin, who also grew up in a devout family, and find remaining band mates later.

They sought the advice of Buddhist Master Chan Song, who provided interpretations of the ancient text and rituals.

Among Master Song's students was Joe Henley, a Canadian who moved to Taiwan 15 years ago and is now the lead singer.

"Buddhism has become a regular part of my life now," said Henley, explaining his decision to covert. "I want to do this right. I wanted to be respectable."

The band's first single "Sapta Jina Bhasitam Papa Vinasana Dharani", an incantation about peace and wellness, is currently being mastered at a Polish studio and will be released next month.

"We are getting a lot of attention, I guess because we are doing something new," said Henley.

"I am enjoying the ride, enjoying the experience."

Read also: Metal band Amerta debuts with superb single 'Bleeker'

Evangelist aim

Tung, who declined to give his age, grew up when Taiwan was a dictatorship and authorities heavily censored rock and metal.

The island transitioned towards democracy in the 1980s and 1990s and Tung devoured whatever he could find.

Bands like Guns N' Roses and Cinderella introduced him to rock while pioneers such as Sepultura and Napalm Death got him hooked on the more extreme metal.

Taiwan has since morphed into one of Asia's most progressive democracies with vibrant artistic communities and sub-cultures.

The island's most famous metal act "Chthonic", which utilizes traditional instruments like the erhu alongside guitars, has toured globally and is fronted by Freddie Lim, a now prominent politician.

Younger generations, especially those in the cities, have embraced a distinctly Taiwanese identity and are less likely to be as religious as their parents.

Tung hopes to change that in whatever way he can via music.

"We have democracy and lots of freedom and we live in a very open society," he explained. "But social morality has declined".

Dharma's live act is deliberately infused with Buddhist traditions. The sutras are projected on screens so fans can read them.

Their face paint embodies the fierce looking deities found in many temples that fight evil spirits.

"You can't defend god by being nice and polite," said Tung.

Celine Lin, 27, came to Dharma's gig with a friend and was looking up Buddhist texts on her phone during the break.

"The music blew my mind," she enthused. "It got me interested in sutras and their meanings."

That is music to Tung's ears.

"If we can influence one person who came to see our performance... I consider the performance a success," he said.

Eager to hear Dharma.