Pushing Hands Competition

[Scythe]

It came to me the other day, how we could get a concentration of pushing hands skill in one place and all learn from each others methods. I live in the UK and i looked up the 'Tai chi union of Great Britain' web site and saw that they run pushing hands competitions (aimed mainly at Tai Chi) the rules of which are pretty restrictive as to what can be done and how one would score points, which could make a lesser contender beat a better one due to the fact the better one lifted his foot from the floor too much etc which can obviously happen when readjusting posture.
My solution to this was to run a Nationwide freestyle Pushing hands competition with no restrictive rules other than the obvious (to outrule headbutts, eye gouges or anything crude in nature) but to allow arm locking, rolling out of locks, feet to raise from the floor etc and to open this competition to all styles that practice push hands. I think this would be a great way that methods could be exchanged and to meet others of high levels of skill in different arts and to build relationships with other schools that practice pushing hands.

I would love to hear from any of you that this would be of interest to, If there is enough interest I will look to arrange this event. I think it would be great!

Either reply here or you can contact me direct at tuishoumaster@msn.com

[Merryprankster]

Ah, I'm sure the wrestlers would be interested in this!

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Ah, I'm sure the wrestlers would be interested in this!

I didn't know that wrestlers practiced either:
Push Hands.
Rolling Hands
Sticking Hands

I thought exercises like that went against their philosophy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I strongly support a pushing-hands competition that utilizes the depth of Tai Chi.. i suggest that actual expression of FaJing be limited to only enough to demonstrate the effectivness of the technique.. I would like to see ChinNa introduced to the competition, strictly controlled so that no serious damage is inflicted upon the competitors, but allowed to add the practical application of Tai Chi's martial roots... It would be interesting to see pushing-hands competitions where "tapping-out" could be as important as being "off-balance".. This is typical for classes that i teach (we also train for standard tournament push-hands, too).

Now, practically speaking, too little respect is shown for good work in pushing hands, egos prevent us from stepping away from a truly good technique.. too often we use so many deceptive little tricks to maintain balance when the opponent has really done a good job.. sneaky use of holding on to the opponent to prevent the appearance of "unbalanced" in ways that look like technique (i do it too, sometimes).. but, using Tai Chi to manipulate an opponent into position to effect ChinNa, then applying only enough force to exhibit the brutal possibilities leaves little room for doubt as to where the point belongs.. Of course with no pads, punches and kicks should be executed and evaluated like point sparring.. similarly, those relaxed and flexible desciples may surprise you with their ability to slip the ChinNa application and reverse it on you.. In any case, tapping-out or off-balance, the audience would be much more likely to appreciate the depth of Tai Chi... Ultimately, i would like to see competitors acknowledge each other's successful techniques with a polite bow before continuing (as long as i'm dreaming )

I think its time that Tai Chi emerged as a viable martial art without losing its true nature as an Internal discipline.. This is where the Judges and referees must be of a high caliber and relentless in their demand for adherence to Internal principles.. otherwise, yes, it will descend into the world of common wrestling..

Just "my" opinion, no big deal.. Be well..:)

[Internal Boxer]

"otherwise, yes, it will descend into the world of common wrestling.."

Tbob, you are correct, it would turn into a wrestling match, but if TC is so superior in skill then it should be allowed to develop. But in reality most TC practioners I have met have an over rated estimation of their own skill, and by not allowing wrestlers in to "do what they like" then they will feed their own fantasies that they are above the grapplers skill level, when the sad reality is they are nowhere near their ability. So I really do understand where you are coming from but I think if we did have a "free for all" method of push hands that means no restrictions for the grappler to apply his art, they would come away with the trophies, this would force the TC practioner to re-evaulate his own methods and seek out a good TC teacher who can deal with grapplers using TC skill, They do exist!!

If they did allow the "common wrestlers" in, it would increase the skill level all around, for the danager is by keeping these "internal principles" we will end up with skilled push hands practioners who have no experience of feeling the skill of a wrestler. So if "internal principles" are to be kept then it is up to that individual to use them and not the oponent, since he should grapple if he so desires.

[Scythe]

Taichi Bob, I agree that there should be Chin Na involved for sure, I also would not personally be aversed to wrestlers entering the competition if they could also push hands, I would not wish for a noble art like push hands to descend into an on the floor grappling comp after all we already have UFC for that! My thinking was that it would be i great way to get various systems and talented people together and of course to test ourselves.

[Merryprankster]

Ummm... There's an entire WORLD of stand-up grappling requiring sensitivity and flow in any "common wrestling" style with an emphasis on takedowns.

Who said anything about ground work?

[Shooter]

If you add chin-na, you'll be doing something very close to MMA...or at the very least, submission wrestling. Yeah, baby! Well applied chin-na and shuai-chiao is going to have at least one of the players go to the ground. God help you if you have a TCC dude who knows his ground-fighting.

I say let the wrestlers, BJJers, Judoka, and sub-wrestlers participate. HeII, if your TCC is so good, they should be no match on the feet. :D

[Shooter]

But seriously...I've been kicking this idea around for years. The way to keep the killers out of the fun and games is to have each competitor perform a short portion of form (5-7 minutes) and have them adjudicated by a panel of knowledgeable judges. If they can't demonstrate TCC's basics in solo form, they aren't allowed to enter the push-hands.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If Tai Chi players want to compare their skills against MMA competitors there's plenty of venues for that.. My interest is in comparing CIMA arts in a tournament setting..

My partner's students and my own regularly "go at it".. he teaches JKD, Muay Thai, NHB, Eskrima, Silat, so on and so on.. The results are mixed but promising.. CIMA is prevailing 35-40% of the time (even on the ground).. and we're improving.. best results are early in the exchange before the "shooters" get a good grasp.. a quick deflection leading into moving ChinNa is quite effective.. (moving, as in don't think that you can stand there and immobilize someone with a single technique)..

Be well..

[Shooter]

TaiChiBob, hence my solution to 'saving face' while keeping the tournament CMA exclusive.

[Laughing Cow]

Shooter.

I like your idea. Just not sure if doing the form alone will be good enough to judge people.

I know a lot of IMA Guys that train solely for Push hand competitions and don't worry too muhc about their forms and vice versa.

Take guys like Mario Napoli for example.

[Scythe]

Merry Prankster, if you are just refering to standing grappling with take downs then breaking point awarded and back to standing, i can't see any problem with that type of wrestling being involved, i think that would in fact be all the better, the more varied the methods that enter the better.

Shooter, i would like to keep it as open as possible, so therefore i would not insist that they could demonstrate Tai Chi forms...I don't even practice Tai chi! but i do practice push hands.

I'd love to get and arrange this thing for real i just am not sure whether there enough people out there interested and where to find the competitors...any suggestions?

[Merryprankster]

Still a bit irked about the "common wrestling," comment. That's really dismissive. But I'll let it go.

Scythe, the hardest part you are going to have is advertisement. It may be hard to get people to come to something they are completely unfamiliar with. That is, you may get a lot of CIMA types but not much "cross-culturally." I would try and reach specifically out to wrestling clubs and maybe even judo clubs. Word of mouth is the way tournaments grow and become succesful learning environments for all. You cannot expect a huge first event unless you are willing to advertise enormously for it. People will not come back if they didn't like the event.

I have years as a competitor in many events, so I offer the things that would keep me coming back.

1. Were the rules clearly stated and uniformly enforced? If not, or they changed at the last minute, I'm not coming back, probably. Hold a rules meeting, and demonstrate clearly what is legal and what is not, and what the scoring situations are.

2. Run your event on time. If there is an empty mat/ring, it better not stay empty for long. Wrestlers and Judoka have this down pat. BJJers do not :D.

3. Are you severely limiting my style? For instance, if you have one of those push hands competitions that restrict foot movement, I'm going to get stomped. That's not the way I employ my body. It's not the way ANY wrestler or judoka or stand-up grappler employs their body for this sort of thing. I know that's not what you're talking about, it's just an example.

4. Are ref/judges decisions final? They should be, with no appeals process or argument. You don't have time to deal with that. People who repeatedly argue should be dealt with firmly, and promptly. They disrupt the whole event!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I appologize for the "common wrestling" remark.. it was not intended to be dismissive.. it was intended to be distinct from disciplined wrestling (ie: Judo, BJJ, Shootfighting, etc..)

The problem in an open format (which by the way there are already many), is that it would be difficult to compare skills from an "internal" perspective. Certainly, there should be takedowns, ChinNa, Fajing, medium contact, and foul body odors (one of my favorites :D ).. but, i am suggesting that it be kept largely in a CIMA context... Those intent on testing their skills against MMA have a wide variety of opportunities in other competitions.. What i am suggesting is that we have a venue to explore a broader range of internal principles in a CIMA format, a controlled format.. from this format i hope we could refine our teaching and learning skills such that at some time we could enter the MMA arena as contenders.. In general, most Tai Chi Schools couldn't offer even a viable sparring partner for MMA players.. But, i sense a change in the Tai Chi community, a willingness to explore our Martial roots.. I'm merely suggesting we begin the journey with small steps rather than a leap into fray.

I do not intend to offend, it is not my nature.. if i do, it is usually a misunderstanding.. and, if i do intend to offend it will be clear..

Be well..

[Merryprankster]

Ah, well then, no hard feelings :D

I appreciate your point Tai Chi Bob, but if you keep things closed, you won't be able to learn from those outside the scope of your own thought process. Open it, and see what happens! The worst is that people begin practicing their own principles to adjust to what they have seen and felt in real time.

MMA is a great example of how quickly things can evolve. First this "BJJ is the best thing," then wrestlers came in to ground and pound once they learned to defend submissions, and now you've got strikers who can stay on their feet and get back up doing fine too. The improvement in fighter quality has been tremendous in the past decade.

[Scythe]

Merry prankster: thanks for your views on running a good event i shall bear them in mind.

Laughing cow: The raising the foot thing is a crazy rule, you can still see if someone has been uprooted or if they are just resettling their balance if you allow the feet to be lifted.
What is your definition of push hands? I believe you can mix it up with in more or less any form through contact reflex starting from meeting of the arms and come under the title pushing hands. Standing grappling can be employed (as we do) and still fit into the format of pushing hands and if one is to have any success in this you will NEED to employ CIMA principles, leverage, joint popping and manipulation etc.;)

Tai chi Bob: I think that a skilled pushing hands exponent can mix it with MMA, but on the other hand a pushing hands competition is not the place for this as you have said there is many arenas where this could take place, but this is not to say that a Highly skilled pushing hands exponent would not be able to defend against MMA in that sort of competition.

I have wrestled with quite a few guys who practice BJJ and they have not managed to get me locked up because of the skills I have through pushing hands (the way we do it) This is not to say I could not brush up on applying the locks etc myself but I am confident of my ability to avoid getting locked up to submission in the majority of cases.

[Merryprankster]

Scythe,

This is a great example--define uprooted? I mean, somebody might execute a hard head shuck and knock me off balance a little, but if I recover did they do it well enough?

Or is that the point-To not be knocked offbalance at all?

[Scythe]

Merryprankster: Good point, the rules of the comp would have to be well defined before it went ahead. I am not sure as yet what the format to scoring points would be as in pushing hands/wrestling/grappling one quite often wil be knocked out of position and have to resettle. There are of course other instances where one would as we call it 'invest in loss' in that one would possibly take an armlock for instance and as it is applied one allows it on further than they should but then recovers through doing a sacrifice roll and then reversal, I don't think one should be marked down in such an instance as it is skillfully taking a force and dealing with it. I think points should only be scored against each other in the case of true loss of balance, being thrown out of the area, being taken down or satisfactorily locked. the details of which would need to be defined.

My definition of uprooted is being thrown/lifted out of stance causing one to lose composure.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think its time that Tai Chi emerged as a viable martial art

me too! :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Scythe,

This is a great example--define uprooted? I mean, somebody might execute a hard head shuck and knock me off balance a little, but if I recover did they do it well enough?

Or is that the point-To not be knocked offbalance at all?

This is what I'm thinking about when I use the term uprooted. I'm going to use an example because it's easier. If you have "root", it means you have "base" or a groundpath. If you and I are sparring, what I want to do is crash into you to knock you off balance. However, I DON'T want to blast you with everything I have. If I do, you'll probably stagger back and I need to have you close to me. Why? I want to keep pushing and pulling to keep you jostled. Once I "take" you balance, I'm not going to let you have it back.

If you have a good base, you can punch me hard or throw me. If you're fighting to get you balance back, you can't. You may hit me, but it will be an arm punch and I can take that! At the same time, I practice the forms, stancework, etc. in addition to sparring so that while I'm constantly screwing with you balance, I'm never losing mine.

Every time I jostle you off balance it is an attack. It doesn't even really matter if that one attack is successful because eventually one of the techs will work and BOOM you fall down.

What I try to do in sparring is very similar in strategy to how a wrestler attacks. The main diference is that I don't want to clinch or lock up. I want you to be constantly moving around so you never have a chance to launch a counter attack of your own.

Be nice, because this is just my interpretation. But so far it works beautifully :D

[Scythe]

I don't think when defining 'uprooted' that the uprooted person need fall down in order to have been uprooted, nor do I think it is possible to keep someone permanantly uprooted whilst pushing/sparring with them. An uproot is a defining moment when ones position is weak and it is capitalised on by the other and their balance is taken from them.

[dezhen2001]

nothing constructive to add really, just wanted to say this is a good thread, lots of good ideas going on :)

dawood

[Liokault]

But its all been done before!!!!


A Tai Chi comp is being held in Oxford this april (as it has been for about 10 yesrs) that will have an event much like you suggest.
I have not entered it for several years but I remember well my days of throwing totaly unsuspecting Yang style guys over my head with step up raise hands and lifting them off the floor with elbow locks.

Now as far as i know this is a Tai chi union of britain event but I could be wrong. It is very well attended and even attracts guys from europe.

The 2 main events are Fixed step pushing hands (where u lose if u mpove your feet or touch the ground) and moveing step pushing hands which is held over 2 rounds (if i remember0 and you win by either forceing your oponent out of a 24x24 foot area or by making them hit the mat with anything other than their feet.


there will also be some san shou.




As for how do you judge up rooting if feet can be moved. Well is the object to purley uproot your oponent or should it be a prelude to somthing else? In the large area you win no points for uprooting but if you can use your uprooting to do somthing that effects your oponent negatively (i.e throw them to the floor or move them to a place where they dont want to be moved to) you get points and win.



And as for the guys above who say it will breack down into brute force.....well that makes me mad. You are trying to use tai chi to over come brute force so you set up a comp that makes it illegal to use force. Kind of misses the point dont it. If you can not cope with brute force then you should lose.

[Scythe]

I realise that Pushing hands competitions already exist but the point of the thread is that they are not open and the rules that they impose are restrictive and don't allow for free expression. I have looked up the rules to the TCUGB pushing hands comps and they don't appear to suit pushing hands exponents that come from anything other than Tai Chi.

I have never watched one so I don't know but from what I've read I am unsure whether they would appeal on a wider scale.

[Liokault]

Whats not open about them? Anyone can enter regardless of style.

The rules are.

Large area (aprox 24x24 feet.

Get 1 point for putting your oponent out of the area.

Get 1 point for making them touch the ground with anything other than the bottem of their feet.

If i remember correctly.

You get 3 points for sending youir oponent flying out of the area.

You get 3 points for fully dropping youir oponent to the ground.

No strikes allowed.....no dangerouse throws (depends on the ref)

The main problem is that the rules tend to change right up to the day of the comp to pander to certain groups who think that things should be done in certain ways.

[Scythe]

Like i said I haven't watched one so i can't pass judgement, but from what i read about the rules they seem restrictive to me, particularly the fact that one cannot raise ones feet, in our system this would happen quite regularly in order to resettle posture, without having been in a losing position.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


And as for the guys above who say it will breack down into brute force.....well that makes me mad.

Tai Chi push-hands competition is just that push-hands, not a free-for-all.. The purpose, as i understand it, is to compare push-hands skills.. As has been stated in this thread, there is a wide variety of venues for those wishing to test their skills against MMA fighters.. Why get mad because an established format doesn't fit your concepts and other formats fit precisely.. the choice should be for the players.

Of course i can hear the lamentations over how Push-hands players avoid "real" fighters.. My assertion is that most CIMA players are looking to train for the "unlikely" event they are forced into a combative situation.. very few are looking to dominate the NHB arena.. For those truly interested in training internally for such events, there are a few schools that offer such training.. The measure of your dedication is also in your willingness to seek out such schools, to sacrifice personal comforts in favor of the ultimate training... The choice is yours, don't impose your concepts on others..


If you can not cope with brute force then you should lose.

Simply because Push-hands competitions don't include wrestlers, Muay Thai, JKD, Shootfighters, etc.. does not preclude the players from being able to handle "brute force", it simply sets this event aside for comparing skills within a prescribed format.. It would be a long leap of logic to assume that good push-hands players can't handle themselves in a standard street setting.. of course next we will surely quibble about the term "good"..

Those that fault Tai Chi players for not competing in open events or inviting MMA into Tai Chi competitions are narrowly focused on their own agendas, failing to recognize that all the formats are available, subject to the choices of the players..

Be well..

[PaiLumUmar]

Hello Gentlemen,

I recently went to an All Chinese style tournament in which I was thrilled to hear had standing and moving step Comp. What Iwas very dissapointed to see were the competitors literally leaning and pushing on eachother. No it was not a shuai jiao comp. These guys were just fighting so hard to push eachother around it was disgusting. Any person with some sensitivty training including Judoka or freestyle grapplers could do that. I was both hurt and confused at witnessing the lack of concern for technique and application. whats the use?
Then I saw these two guys in the advanced devision, both about 170- 180 lbs. It was the coolest thing. They got moving and everyonce in a while someone would either push and get yanked down or out. Or get barred and thrown. All these subtle things were happening that most open comp viewers were bored with and I was so facinated.
We have to be able to practice all the things we train. As far as I am concered all these comps are practice sessions. I think that most experienced players can tell when you are leaving the scope of what is expected from an internal arts player. Without letting the match deteriorate into an open fighting comp, all the techniques, strategies (trickeries) should be allowed and Stricktly wathed and judged.

"But hey, thats just my oppinion, I could be wrong"

Keep it rolling guys.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by PaiLumUmar

"But hey, thats just my oppinion, I could be wrong"


That looks familair, but isn't it opinion?
:)

[PaiLumUmar]

uh...yes. Nothing like a psuedo intelligent rant followed by a simple spelling error.

thx Dennis.

[Walter Joyce]

Judging someone's intelligence based on their spelling errors is not what I'd call sound analysis. While spelling correctly may be an indicator of a certain type of intelligence, spelling errors are not necessarily an indication of a lack of intelligence.

The only reason I mentioned it at all is because I've used that tagline myself a bit. I was just teasing you.

:)

[PaiLumUmar]

NO Problem I can recognize a zing when I hear /read it. I didnt take it wrong. I am off for now gentlemen. Talk again tomorrow. Thank you all for the stimulus.


:p

[Liokault]

Like i said I haven't watched one so i can't pass judgement, but from what i read about the rules they seem restrictive to me, particularly the fact that one cannot raise ones feet, in our system this would happen quite regularly in order to resettle posture, without having been in a losing position.


No rules about not being able to life your feet at all in April Oxford.

Only rules are as i stated above.

Big area.

Points for getting your oponent down


Points for getting your oponent out.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Scythe
I have never watched one so I don't know but from what I've read I am unsure whether they would appeal on a wider scale.

That is the impression I got from the beginning.
Tui Shou is not just a standing grappling competition or free-for-all.

Tui Shou is about a specific set of skills within the CIMA, there are other styles that also practice different version of this, and some are even considered external.

A few years a go a NON-TCC person won the Push Hands competition in Chen Village.

As Liokault said most of the rules are pretty open.

As for CIMA not being able to handle brute force, brute force is the easiest force to defeat for a skilled exponent.
Why because the guy using brute force cannot read me or my intention but his are very clear to me.

Cheers.

[Scythe]

Liokault: Is the Pushing hands Comp in Oxford in April the TCUGB one?

If it is I read the rules on their Website and they did say that one cannot raise the foot, if this is not the case I'd be happy to enter.

I have them in front of me and they say '....1point will be awarded if a contestant raises his foot from the floor....' this is in the rules to fixed step pushing hands, the moving step rules start by saying 'The rules shall be the same as those given above with certain additions......'
These rules are on www.taichiunion.com/botccrules.html

If the comp You talk of in April is a different one I'd love to hear about it.:)

[Scythe]

Laughing cow, I never said anything about pushing hands not being able to deal with brute force, I think it makes it all the easier to deal with brute force...Theres no point preaching to the converted.
I also never said it should be a stand up grappling comp or a free for all but i don't see any problem with allowing grappling techniques in as long as they are applied under pushing hands format.:)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Scythe
If it is I read the rules on their Website and they did say that one cannot raise the foot, if this is not the case I'd be happy to enter.

Nothing wrong with that rule as it is for the "Fixed Step" Competition.
In short BOTH Competitiors are stationary for the first 30 seconds, than switch feet and remain stationary for the other 30 seconds.
As explained in the rules.

The "Moving Step" of course allows you to lift the foot. Hence you are given the 24x24 foot area to move around in.

Glad they don't have a 1-step or 3-step competition.

Would also be interested if the "Fixed Step" is one-handed or double-handed.
I prefer one-handed for "Fixed Step".

So I think the one you want to enter is the moving step one.

[Liokault]

Scythe



The rules shall be the same as those given above with certain additions. The contest area will not exceed 24' x 24'. Contestants will approach one another at the direction of the referee from opposite ends of the contest area and make hand/arm contact. The contest will begin on the referee's command.
Scoring 1 point will be awarded where a contestant steps outside of the area. 2 points will be awarded for a half fall. 4 points for a full fall and 8 points where a contestant is sent flying out of the area.
Permitted Moves Contestants may move freely within the contest area using peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou & kao etc.


Taken from the web site you sent me to above Scythe.



You need to remember that there are 2 types of pushing hands going on....one requires you to keep your feet fixed and the other (above ) is very open.

[Scythe]

As I said i haven't watched one but the rules page on the TCUGB website say 'That the rules shall be the same as the above(meaning fixed step) with certain additions'. If you guys say it is otherwise then that is cool, it is in that case just misleading the way it is written on their site.

Is it open to all styles which practice pushing hands?

Another thing you guys maybe able to help with, i am not familiar with the terms, peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou and kao...what do they mean?

Is anyone here planning to enter? i think I may give it a go if the moving step is as open as you say it is as this will allow for the differences in style.

[Scythe]

I just rang them up and asked them what the crack was with moving the foot etc, it appears you guys are right you can move the foot, I was thinking about entering so I have re-read the rules and they still sound a bit restrictive:

'Fouls include:- attacks to the groin, legs, head or neck; attacking joints; punches and kicks; spear hands; throws;sweeps; locks; trips; bitng, spitting & scratching; pulling hair or clothing; putting arms round the opponents back, disobeying the referee,dissent and bad language'

I'm ok with most of that but, no sweeps, throws, locks, working the joints etc, how the hell do you get the guy down or out???

can anyone shed some light?

[ripat]

> I'm ok with most of that but, no sweeps, throws, locks, working the joints etc, how the
> hell do you get the guy down or out???

You are not the first one to ask that! :-) These more restrictive rules where used in the european championships last October, and I don't think I have met anyone who really likes them.

In Swedish Open we will use the old rules for moving step pushing hands that were used in Brittish Open and Danish Open before. Basicly this means that you may move freely inside the area, safe throws, sweeps and safe locks are allowed.

Take a look at the SO website: http://taichichuan.nu/swedishopen

You are welcome next year! :-)

[ripat]

Hmm... I see that you can get 8 points if you throw the opponent flying out of the ring. This makes me believe that they might have forgotten to add that throws and sweeps are allowed in moving step but not in fixed step, but I'm not sure of course.

In the european championships I don't think you could get 8 point... Kind of hard to make the opponent to fly out of the ring without throwing him... :-)

Somebody should ask if throws and sweeps are allowed in moving step pushing hands, the rules doesn't seem completly clear on that point.

[Liokault]

The term 'flying out of the area' does not meen they must FLY out ....it is just means that the guys leaves the area with some force instead of just being shoved to the edge and made to place one foot out.

[ripat]

Originally posted by Liokault
The term 'flying out of the area' does not meen they must FLY out ....it is just means that the guys leaves the area with some force instead of just being shoved to the edge and made to place one foot out.

ok. I suppose it can be defined in different ways and I don't know how it will be interpreted in Brittish Open. In Swedish Open we will use the following definition this year:

"8 points: If the opponent is sent flying out from the square. I. E. The opponent leaves the square with no contact with the floor and lands touching the floor with any other part of his body than the feet."

[haamu]

Im confused...

You say brute force is the easiest force to defeat... but still there are weight classes in pushing hands competition. And a lot of them... well, i guess it's not all 'internal'...

haamu

[Laughing Cow]

haamu.

Here is what I said.

{QUOTE]
... , brute force is the easiest force to defeat for a skilled exponent.
Why because the guy using brute force cannot read me or my intention but his are very clear to me.
[/QUOTE]

If you use "LI" and not "Yi" your "ting jin" is impaired.

Personally, I haven't taken part in a Tui Shou Competition yet but have pushed with many people from different levels and TJQ styles.
IME, People that use "Yi" unconsciously often thing that the other person is tense & stiff when in reality what they feel is their own stiffness.

Doing correct Push hands according to the TJQ classics is difficult and takes a fair amount of work.

Too many People see Tui Shou practice as a competition or feel that they need to "win".
When Tui Shou practice is supposed to be cooperative, People that don't train cooperative will, IMO, develop bad habits and rely too much on "Li" and not enough on "ting jin" and correct Body movements/structure.

Plus, how can you issue "Fa Jing" if you are not open & relaxed. �@

Just my viewpoint naturally.

[Scythe]

I personally don't think that there is a need for weight catagories in pushing hands competition, as if one is skilled enough then weight should not really be a consideration.

I have to agree with Laughing Cow in that Pushing hands was not originally designed for competition but more for co-operation, after all if one party is not playing the game then the other cannot push hands with him. This is not to say you cannot apply the skills gained through pushing hands in combat or competition just that in order to get skillful in push hands in the first place one has to have co-operation.
Through this medium heavy unskillful forces become comparatively easy to deal with.

[ripat]

Well, there's nothing that stops you from entering a higher weightclass if you wish.

[Walter Joyce]

I don't know about Europe, but in the US, if there are weight calsses established, and the event is insured, you are not supposed to move up or down in a weight class, or the coverage is void.

[Kumkuat]

But if you have two people with the exact same level of skills, the bigger, heavier guy will usually win.

[Liokault]

This is not to say you cannot apply the skills gained through pushing hands in combat or competition just that in order to get skillful in push hands in the first place one has to have co-operation.

yes to learn proper pushing hand skills you need your partner to be co-operative or you just fall over straight away and learn nothing. Saying that we have in our class guys who have no real interest in learning pushing hands and just try to blast u straight off with palm strikes. this is great as altough they are not learning anything by doing this the guy up against them can learn loads.


On the question of moving weight classes.

I belive there is an open weight for guys over 85k....but any one who wants to go into this class of any weight can do so.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Scythe
I personally don't think that there is a need for weight catagories in pushing hands competition, as if one is skilled enough then weight should not really be a consideration.


I agree with this.
One of my Sifu was 5"2 weighing in at about 120 pounds and manhandled me like anything(5"10 & 190 pounds).

Sifu loved to leave you in a position where you couldn't do anything.
Resisting was immediately neutralised very softly and any attempt of moving away reuslted in you falling down.

[Scythe]

Originally posted by Kumkuat
But if you have two people with the exact same level of skills, the bigger, heavier guy will usually win.

The weight should as I said before should have little to do with it. The whole idea behind pushing hands is that one can indeed take the force of a bigger stronger person redirect it and return it without using any of ones own strength (or lack of)

I am about 12st 10lbs, I have a training partner who is about
15st 7lbs and I have no problem mixing with him and he is very skillful, I also have another training partner who is about 11st, he is excellent and can he can also mix it with the big guy and myself.

It is no doubt that the bigger guy is stronger than us but as soon as strength is introduced into push hands it gives dead force to work off so therefore the bigger guy cannot try to overpower us as he himself is skillful enough to know that it will capitalised on and he would not put himself in a bad position by trying to muscle his way through another in pushing hands.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The concept is nice, but.. two equally trained, equally experienced, equally skiiled players cross hands and one outweighs the other by 80 pounds.. the heavier guy has the advantage.. simple physics.. We all have our stories about the tiny master handling the brutes, but.. a tiny master vs. a monster master would likely produce different results..

Competitions are set-up recognizing this relationship.. they attempt to keep skill and weight at similar pairings.. all things being equal, weight/physics cannot be dismissed as a deciding factor in the outcome of a match. The lesson here is that we must persevere to insure that our skill-level neutralizes weight advantages..

Don't let the hype cloud your vision of reality, understand that extreme weight advantages are neutralized by skill advantage.. The tiny master pushes people around because of high skill, not "magic" that changes the laws of physics..

Just another perspective, Be well..

[Scythe]

Thanks Bob - for the slightly patronizing remarks.
I will assure you that i do have a firm grip on reality and am the last person to get caught up with hype but again I confirm my belief that weight shouldn't be a large consideration. It is after all unlikely that all other factors will be equal. One party is generally going to be more skillful than the other if he weren't they would draw every time.

In the unlikely event that you did have two people of the exact same level of skill then the deciding factor would have to lay elsewhere so I imagine the weight would then come into play and would give the advantage. But only in the same respect as two exponents of the 'exact' same level of skill and of the same weight but one being alot fitter than the other would have the advantage.

These considerations are going to be factors beyond the pushing hands skills. So what would happen should they be of the exact same level of skill, one being a heavy unfit guy the other being a lighter extremely fit guy, maybe the weight would win, maybe the fitness would win, who knows, the factors outside of the pushing hands are just natural advantages that one person may have over another.

The biggest difference is going to be shown in level of skill at neutralizing the other party.

[Liokault]

Scythe is correct.

I have wone pushing hands comps against guys better skilled than my self and heavier by being fitter.

But weight plays such a huge part, I see no reason why some guy should get a advantage just by being bigger. Fitness and skill have to be gained by hard work where if anything you have to work hard to weigh LESS.