When did "Cho On" take WCK to Penang, Malaysia ???????

[Geezer]

Rene,Hsanto,

When did "Cho On" take WCK to Penang, Malaysia????????

Sheldon

[Geezer]

Rene, Have I found something you don't know the answer to:eek:

I didn't think it was that hard of a question:confused:

I Wrote>

When did "Cho On" take WCK to Penang, Malaysia????????

Sheldon;)

[planetwc]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/biographies/ancestors/choon.html

Cho On (Cao Dean) was born at then end of the 19th century. The relative of Cho Dak-Shing, he learned Wing Chun from in their native village of Panyu. In the late-1920s/early-1930s he lived in Hong Kong for a short time where he worked as a Dim Sum chef and taught some Wing Chun Kuen. He later went to Penang, Malaysia where he worked as a cook and by the 1940s was teaching the Wing Chun Kuen system of his family to select students. Among his students were Cho Hung-Choi and Lao Suen-Yuen. Cho On passed away in the 1980s at over 90 years of age.

[reneritchie]

I believe he also went to Foshan before HK and visited with Yuen Kay-San, Yip Man, Cheung Bo, and the rest of the folks who frequented Tien Hoi restaurant.

[Geezer]

Planetwc Wrote>

Cho On (Cao Dean) was born at then end of the 19th century. The relative of Cho Dak-Shing, he learned Wing Chun from in their native village of Panyu. In the late-1920s/early-1930s he lived in Hong Kong for a short time where he worked as a Dim Sum chef and taught some Wing Chun Kuen. He later went to Penang, Malaysia where he worked as a cook and by the 1940s was teaching the Wing Chun Kuen system of his family to select students. Among his students were Cho Hung-Choi and Lao Suen-Yuen. Cho On passed away in the 1980s at over 90 years of age.

I had already read all this, I was looking for a specific date????

We know it was somewhere between the 1930s and 1940s but there were no specifics???

Sheldon;)

[byond1]

yip kin with the help of wong yam sun ,in 1959 opened the persatuan tinju wing choon association...that is the only date in my notes with me in referance to yik kam family...i will look for more for you when i get home
b

[reneritchie]

Hi Brian,

Yip Kin has no relation to Yik Kam (though he might have interacted with Cho On when he got to Malaysia, the systems each brought there and taught there were/are distinct)

[Geezer]

I Wrote>

We know it was somewhere between the 1930s and 1940s but there were no specifics???

Rene, are you able to shed any light on specific dates as to when"Cho On" took WCK to Penang, Malaysia?????

Sheldon;)

[reneritchie]

Do you mean when did he move to Malaya (was it Malaysia already by then?) or when did he start teaching there?

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Do you mean when did he move to Malaya (was it Malaysia already by then?) or when did he start teaching there?

How about both, it sounds like you know the answer to both questions, so shoot;)

You say Tomato I say Tomatoe :cool:

When did Cho On move to Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year???? and when did he start teaching WCK in Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year????

Sheldon

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Do you mean when did he move to Malaya (was it Malaysia already by then?) or when did he start teaching there?

Sheldon Wrote>

How about both, it sounds like you know the answer to both questions, so shoot

Sheldon wrote>

When did Cho On move to Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year???? and when did he start teaching WCK in Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year????

Rene, any luck on this yet:confused: from your response it sounded like you had the answer???????

Sheldon;)

[Phenix]

Rene,

LOL. Want to know who brougth Cho On to Malaysia?
But then that is personal business what is that got to do with WCK?


Hendrik

[reneritchie]

Hendrik,

As you may have noticed, I'm staying away from the history threads and exchanging on the technical ones instead for now.

Too much noise, too many trolls, and too much pumping for info without good faith exchange, and not enough people trying to turn it around. I can be more productive over private email.

[Phenix]

Rene,

I certainly agree.

Hendrik

[Geezer]

Hendrik/Phenix Wrote>

LOL. Want to know who brougth Cho On to Malaysia?
But then that is personal business what is that got to do with WCK?

What has that got to do with WCK:confused:Cho On took WCK to Malaysia/Malaya, I think that has allot to do with WCK:confused:I didn't realize that it was a big secret:confused:

Rene Wrote>

As you may have noticed, I'm staying away from the history threads and exchanging on the technical ones instead for now.

I'm trying to narrow down the those 20 years to a possible date, I can't see how that is asking anything out of order:confused:

Rene Wrote>

Too much noise, too many trolls, and too much pumping for info without good faith exchange, and not enough people trying to turn it around. I can be more productive over private email.

Again the questions stands,When did Cho On move to Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year???? and when did he start teaching WCK in Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year????

If neither of you feel capable of answering this question, please point me in the right direction so I can get an answer:confused:
and stop wasteing bandwidth;)

Sheldon;)

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

I'm happier if they aren't wised up.

Does that apply here then:confused:, is that why you haven't responded to this question and offered an answer:confused:

Sheldon

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene!!!!!!!! Rene Wrote>
quote:I'm happier if they aren't wised up.

Does that apply here then, is that why you haven't responded to this question and offered an answer

Sheldon

-----------------------------------------------------

Hi Sheldon,

I hate to tell you this...

Your words are still.

You are still.

You're the big brother in the world of WCK.

Regards

Roger

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

It seems our other discussion was halted rather abruptly. I would have loved to hear more.

Is there any specific reason your currious about Cho On? It seems your rather intent on an answer. I get the impression your almost demanding an answer, just by reading your words. I would think that most people would find that rude and offensive and would not be a wise way to extract an answer. I think Garret Gee plays by these rules. LOL.

I think Planet Wing Chun gave a fine answer on Cho On wing chun.

PS, Hi Hendrik, I have not communicated with you in a while. Never now where your at and I rarely visit this forum. I hope to see you some time soon. Maybe you can visit the get together if your inclined. If not, I would love to stop by sometime for Dim Sum if you ever get a free moment. LOL.

Tom

[canglong]

I believe he also went to Foshan before HK and visited with Yuen Kay-San, Yip Man, Cheung Bo, and the rest of the folks who frequented Tien Hoi restaurant. --RR

Yip Kin has no relation to Yik Kam (though he might have interacted with Cho On when he got to Malaysia, the systems each brought there and taught there were/are distinct) --RR

As you may have noticed, I'm staying away from the history threads and exchanging on the technical ones instead for now.

Too much noise, too many trolls, and too much pumping for info without good faith exchange, and not enough people trying to turn it around. I can be more productive over private email.
--RR


Geezer, I believe this is all code meaning the exact information which you request has yet to be declassified for public dissemination by Rene. Email him and wait a few years I am sure he will get back to you. Good luck

[Chango]

Hello Tom,

<snip> I think Garret Gee plays by these rules. LOL


I don't think this was called for. HFY or my Sigung was not mentioned in this thread. Geezer/Sheldon has shown support for the HFY but he is not from the HFY lineage. He is from the Yip Man lineage. So please do not drag my Sigung into this thread. Sheldon asked Rene a direct question that he wanted from Rene himself. HFY has nothing to do with this. From what I understand you have met with Sigung in the past. Your actions here does not seem consistant with how you behaved in the past. I don't understand. Please explain.

Chango (Saat geng sau)

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

It seems our other discussion was halted rather abruptly. I would have loved to hear more.

No, not really, I just advised you that I wasn't going to have a P!$$ing contest with you:confused: and that was my last post on the subject;)

Tom Wrote>

Is there any specific reason your currious about Cho On?

Sorry, I don't get the question:confused: are "You" now the the Spokesperson for Rene and Hendrik:confused:

Tom Wrote>

It seems your rather intent on an answer. I get the impression your almost demanding an answer, just by reading your words.

It was an honest question that could have been answered quite easily but somehow it got blown all out of whack!!!!!!

Tom Wrote>

I would think that most people would find that rude and offensive and would not be a wise way to extract an answer. I think Garret Gee plays by these rules. LOL.

Sorry, I don't see the humor in your last statement, please enlighten me as to what is so funny:confused:

Tom Wrote>

I think Planet Wing Chun gave a fine answer on Cho On wing chun.

Yes he did, only thing was I had already read all that information;)

Tom Wrote>

PS, Hi Hendrik, I have not communicated with you in a while. Never now where your at and I rarely visit this forum. I hope to see you some time soon. Maybe you can visit the get together if your inclined. If not, I would love to stop by sometime for Dim Sum if you ever get a free moment. LOL.

You know they have PMs for this, but thanks anyway.

Tom, seeing as you seem very informed on the subject maybe you can answer my question?????????

I Wrote>

When did Cho On move to Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year???? and when did he start teaching WCK in Penang Malaysia/Malaya, what year????

P.S. Tom, maybe you should apologize to the VTM and HFY for your comment:confused:

Sheldon

P.P.S.Your not French are you:consused:

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

I can be more productive over private email.

Canlong Wrote>

Geezer, I believe this is all code meaning the exact information which you request has yet to be declassified for public dissemination by Rene. Email him and wait a few years I am sure he will get back to you. Good luck

I just now, tried to send a PM and it said Rene was not accepting PMs from anybody:confused: how can I ask him if he's not prepared to recieve the question:confused:

Sheldon

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Chango,

Sorry, your right. I probably shouldn't have used his name like that. However, I did not mean disrespect. Sheldon seems to have a healthy respect for Gee sifu and I was pointing out, from my personaly experience with him, that he doesn't give in to demands. You ask respectfully and he shares. You demand and he will not. Nothing more, nothing less was implied. I just thought it might help to in the discussion since it appears that Sheldon is demanding an answer. But that is my limited perseption on the thread, perhaps it was not meant that way.


Sheldon,
What you call a pi$$ing discussion is merely a discussion. Sorry to hear your not willing to discuss things you brought up. I am not a spokes person, but I am a member of the list. I saw your comments as baiting and demanding. Hardly any moduk in it at all. Sorry you don't see it. Ask nicely and I would bet dollars to donuts you can get the answer. My comment about Garret Gee, as stated above, was to show a parralell in how he would not answer a question framed in a similar manner. There was no disrespect intended and I appologized for any appearnce of it. I can respect Sifu Gee as I have meet him on a couple occasions.


Tom

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

I am not a spokes person

Nuh Ahh????????

Tom Wrote>

but I am a member of the list. I saw your comments as baiting and demanding. Hardly any moduk in it at all. Sorry you don't see it.

Tom, you really haven't followed this as well as you think:confused: I asked this question on another thread and was very polite about "I think", but didn't recieve an answer to the question??.

Tom Wrote>

Sheldon seems to have a healthy respect for Gee sifu and I was pointing out,

Actually, I have a healthy respect for quite a few people.

Tom, getting down to the question in hand, can "you" help me out on this????????

Sheldon

[Geezer]

Tom, here's the original question,

I Wrote>


When did "Cho On" take WCK to Penang, Malaysia ?????????


Sorry Tom, what is so bad about the way I asked this question:confused:

Taken from the thread,This one's for you --- Chango, and the original author was Hendrik.

Can anyone answer my question????????:confused:

Sheldon

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Hardly any moduk in it at all.

Tom, do you actually have any idea,what MODUK is:confused:

Tom Wrote>

As far as HFY, I followed it for a while then it became comical. The people, not the style. I met several people first hand, to include Garret Gee on numerous occasions and saw the system first hand. I liked it. But I don't like the people on the net. Too arrogant. I stopped following the system a long time ago before any of these guys even knew there was a Hei Gung set.

Seeing as you wanted to bring the Southern Fist thread over here I did it for you;)




(http://)

www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1096&FORUM_ID=23&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=Internal+Training&Forum_Title=%3Cb%3EWing+Chun%3C%2Fb%3E

Sheldon

[desertwingchun2]

Geezer - Thank you for letting us know that the HFY family is popular on other boards as well. That thread made interesting reading.
-David

[reneritchie]

Hi Sheldon,

I've never explored the PM functionality. I can always be reached by email.

As you know, I've had dozens and dozens of polite, topical, interesting questions ignored over the last few weeks, so I share your frustration, but as I mentioned on the other thread, I've taken a break from the historical discussions right now to spend some time on the technical ones (when I have time, that is).


Note to self - The bitter irony wrt Tom and Sheldon is that Tom to some extent used to be Sheldon. He went and met Gee sifu and though he didn't study HFY, began to support them quite strongly and vocally. One day, however, he expressed some displeasure at how others were being treated (read attacked) on the internet, and began to ask questions, and he was turned on, quickly and viciously. Since history is often repeated, it will be interesting to look back in 5 more years and see where the various relationships stand.

[canglong]

No the most ironic thing is your refusal to answer the question. Continually state that you will only address technical questions yet constantly post messages that have nothing to do with the question or technique.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Note to self - The bitter irony wrt Tom and Sheldon is that Tom to some extent used to be Sheldon.

I don't think so somehow, I could see Tom being compared to Terence but me and him, we're like Chalk and Cheese.

Rene Wrote>

One day, however, he expressed some displeasure at how others were being treated (read attacked) on the internet, and began to ask questions, and he was turned on, quickly and viciously. Since history is often repeated, it will be interesting to look back in 5 more years and see where the various relationships stand.

Somehow this doesn't really bother me, in 5yrs from now I may be living in Canada:phhhhhmmmmm, Doubt It!!!!!!!

Man, I feel like I've been touched in all the wrong places now, Rene

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

I've been discussing WCK on the internet for a while now, since the early 90s at least. You'd be amazed at how some things have changed. I know people who used to be at each other's throats, attacking each other mercilessly for posts without end, and now are very good friends. I even told some back then that when they met in person, they would get along great. They insulted my intelligence quite vigorously, but it turned out to be true. I've also seen good friends torn apart and become bitter enemies.

I've seen giant organizations split apart, reform, split again. I've seen cult-like followers realize how they were being used to attack people and change their lives for the better, only to be attacked by the next generation of cult-follower (and even seen them leave only to be attacked by the next).

I've been told WCK secretly came from English Boxers and from Tibertain Lamas. I've seen "grandmasters" pop up by the dozen. I've seen old mysteries be solved and new ones be created.

Time is turbulant. It stirs. It crashes things together and some crumble and some stick, and it does it over and over again.

And no one ever believes it, and fewer still learn from it.

[desertwingchun2]

Hey Rene - Interesting post. I am rather new to this medium myself and amazed the the length of time you have been discussing Wing Chun online. Im interested to know - What kinds of things have you learned from your experiences? and what keeps you posting through all the turbulent times?
-David

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

I've been discussing WCK on the internet for a while now, since the early 90s at least.

Does this mean, your "His-Story" break is over??????? so when did Cho On take WCK to Penang????????

Sheldon:D

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

Sorry you have not been involved with HFY since the early begining. But as Rene pointed out, I stuck up for them for quite a while. I met a few of them that were VERY nice and willing to talk and discuss. I put my neck on the block for them. No regrets on that. I enjoyed Garrett Gee spending time with me. Why you seem to think I am at odds with them is really wierd. I am not. I do have a problem with the way several members handled themselves on various lists. But then again, they are not a lone and there have been many, many, many others that have shown a serious lack of moduk.

As far as me and Terence, I think there is a huge difference between us. We have debate much more seriously than you and I have. Though, I hold no ill will toward him or you. This is a disscusion list and that is what we do.

Truth rings in Rene's words about things changing. I have seen about half of what Rene has mentioned and no doubt will see much more. I have questions about wing chun in general. I have questions about HFY. I have questions about William Cheung. I have questions about Pan Nam, Yip Man, Yuen Kay San, etc. If you don't question the oddities or the new solutions, then I think you run the risk of beleiving every new theory that is presented.

First Yip Man was the only wing chun. Then Rene popularized Yuan Kay san. Shortly later Pan Nam became famous. People looked to his lineage as some sort of truth. Then HFY came about and said they had the truth. No others are saying it is Gee Shim. Well, they all can not be the truth. It is OK to route for a favorite one, but the issue is proof. There is none so we can't get into a ideological "war" over the truth of wing chun. Heck, maybe Ng Mui made it up herself like the story says.

Long rambling posts. I guess that is what happens when your unemployeed. LOL.

Tom

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Sorry you have not been involved with HFY since the early begining.

Huh, so you've been training HFY and never told anyone??????

Now, I'm even more confused, what are you sorry about???, and why would you care about me???? I don't know you from Adam!!!!

Tom Wrote>

I put my neck on the block for them.

You always make sure there's a back door!!!!!!

Tom Wrote>

As far as me and Terence, I think there is a huge difference between us. We have debate much more seriously than you and I have.

Nah, you both have a selective memory;)

Tom Wrote>

Long rambling posts. I guess that is what happens when your unemployeed.

I guess so

Sheldon

P.S.Tom, so when did Cho On take WCK to Penang????????

P.P.S.Where's Hendrik when you need him???????

[tparkerkfo]

Assuming I knew, I would tell you....though I can't because of my selective memory. Besides I gotta leave a back door so I can wiggle out.

This will be my last post on the subject since it seems we are getting into a pi$$ing contest and can't seem to discuss things. LOL

Bye
Tom

[Rolling_Hand]

Tom Wrote>
quote:I put my neck on the block for them.

You always make sure there's a back door!!!!!!

------------------------------------------------------

Hmm....

What is it?

Lap Sau Vs Wu Sau

WCK indeed...

[Rolling_Hand]

--As you may have noticed, I'm staying away from the history threads and exchanging on the technical ones instead for now.--RR

--Too much noise, too many trolls, and too much pumping for info without good faith exchange, and not enough people trying to turn it around. I can be more productive over private email.--RR

----------------------------------------------------------

--Note to self - The bitter irony wrt Tom and Sheldon is that Tom to some extent used to be Sheldon. He went and met Gee sifu and though he didn't study HFY, began to support them quite strongly and vocally. One day, however, he expressed some displeasure at how others were being treated (read attacked) on the internet, and began to ask questions, and he was turned on, quickly and viciously. Since history is often repeated, it will be interesting to look back in 5 more years and see where the various relationships stand.--RR

--No the most ironic thing is your refusal to answer the question. Continually state that you will only address technical questions yet constantly post messages that have nothing to do with the question or technique.--Tony

----------------------------------------------------------

Tony,

You are wise.

You understand words!

hahaha....

The gift of truth is beyond giving.

The art of WCK,

Like the moon,

Come out from behind the clouds!

It shines...

Brother, your Tan Sau is right on the centerline...

Roger

[reneritchie]

desertwingchun2 - I began online on compuserve when it was still a proprietary service, and worked as a moderator for the Hong Kong MA section. I learned one of my first and most important lessons there when one of the members claimed to have been raped by another during a get together. We (the administrators and higher ups) investigated, and after a week or so of drama, found that the person making the charges wasn't even on the same continent as the person she accused. She'd just gotten into a flame war with him and wanted some payback. Since then, everytime I read something online, I bring a huge grain of salt with me.

Another thing I noticed early on is that there are all manner of teachers claiming to hold the "truth" about WCK, and each has a legion, large or small, of followers who for whatever emotional needs of their own have all but pledged their lives to fight for this "truth". The will break laws of convention, civility, and sometimes even criminality for their respective "truth-sayers", and will ignore even overwhelming evidence of problems. Until it effects them personally. That's the key. I can think of a dozen "truth-sayers" (all saying completely different "truths", of course, some even saying different "truths" to different students and then setting those different students to feuding over which has the "truer" "truth") and over the last decade without exception someone who previously believed them, attacked for them, threatened for them, felt betrayed by them, and broke away (only to be attacked and threatened by the next group of believers). And I've noticed that while these "truth sayers" have *very* loyal followings (its a symptom of their charisma and the type of people who attach themselves to "truth sayers" to begin with), they are almost always of limited duration. Something about the human spirit doesn't allow those relationships to linger.

From that I've learned (though not always successfully) not to argue head on with everyone. Some people aren't ready or willing for a direct discussion. Instead I've learned to ask questions and provide information, and let people come (or not) to their own conclusions. Some are still with their "truth sayers", as they have their own interests at stake (some want to inherit the "truth sayer" mantle, though whether they will or not comes down to who plays the best poker), but privately, they know things now, and at least that's a start.

I've learned, in general, that information and not opinion is what improves things for the better. As Tom mentioned, when I first came online, there was only really Yip Man WCK (with a few, usually very confrontational exceptions Marty and others can fill you in on). I watched for a while and saw that, without exception, arrogance, hyperbole, grandiose claims, confrontational attitudes, etc. failed miserably. Then I decided, when I first began writing about YKS/SN, not to do that. I just provided information and references. I presented articles I wrote, I translated older articles from China. I showed others in different parts of the world, especially China doing likewise. And when people attacked me and my lineage (which they did, repeatedly, and sometimes with a lot of hostility, as I suppose is normal if one has their sense of self invested and thinks it challenged) I tried to stay polite and provide even more information. I think, at least as of today, it was the correct strategy, and I'm very surprised others haven't realized it and done likewise.

On the flip side, with the large organizations that, in part, bound themselves with the idea they were "super special" (often headed by a "truth sayer", as above), information again seemed to be where change came. In the old days, they could say what they liked. "No one but me has really real WCK", "our art is the orginal un-non-authentic version", "no one else learned WCK", yadda, yadda, and chances are few if any could find out otherwise. The internet changed all that. When one "truth sayer" published in an interview that "Yip Man was Pao Fa Lien's sigung", the internet allowed people to see that Pao Fa Lien was teaching the art decades before Yip Man was born. The "truth sayer's" power, which had previously been his word alone, was broken. And over time, when students in different parts of the world or from different classes or times of instruction could interact and discuss with each other, and some found out they'd all been told or taught different things, all as the "absolute true version", organizations fractured and fell.

This brings me to what has kept me online over the last decade or so, and still passionate about discussing the art:

Things change. Even when the latest troll or prophet comes around and annoys everyone, I can think back to the dozen previous ones, most of whom have long since disappeared, and a few of whom have become very productive members of the community. When the latest article comes out with the same divisive language as the past, I can think back to those who wrote those past articles, and where they are now, if anywhere. When people attack me, try to bully or threaten me, I can think of those who have done so in the past, those who are no longer here while I remain or those who now embrace civility and have given up the immaturity of the past. And I can think that, without fail, that while all of the above have damaged our art some in with their selfish, egotistical behavior, the art has endured and they have ended up only hurting themselves; losing their credibility, their organizations, the supposed allies, followers, and marketing dreams.

In sum, my experiences online, aside from allowing me to make and meet many friends and experience many perspectives, have shown me:

1) Never believe the hype, only the substance. It doesn't matter what people can say, only what they can backup.

2) Always think for yourself. And if you think you do, yet have never disagreed with anyone you consider an associate or teacher, you don't, you're just trying to rationalize.

3) Always put the art above yourself. If your name and picture are strewn throughout your work, you're using the art to promote yourself, not the other way around.

4) Value those who disagree with you more than those who agree. As any writer should know, only the harshest criticism has value. The mutual admiration societies and philosophical rationalizers will hone your ego, not your craft.

5) Always be a student, never a teacher. Avoid all traps of title and prestige, of fancy costume and ceremony, of follower rather than friend. They're all delusion.

6) Constantly test yourself. Use every interaction as a chance to evolve your opinion or skill if you can, and to validate it when you can't (and if the latter out numbers the former, again you're rationalizing).

7) Never give up. Never settle for less. Never complain about something you dislike when you can lead by example of something you do.

8) Seek the positive and productive. The rest is lazy, and if its not worth their effort, its not worth yours. Only interact with those willing to share as much as you do, in spirit even if not in substance.

9) Realize you will fail from time to time, dust yourself off, learn what you did wrong, and try again.

10) It's only the internet. If you take it seriously, you're the fool.

Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps in 5 years I'll think differently, who knows? You asked a sincere question and though no doubt this weeks crop of trolls will spring up with their usual BS, this is my sincere response.

[canglong]

Rene Ritchie,
Why is everyone that disagrees with you a troll, are you not breaking rule number 4 already.
There is a saying about people who use alot of words for things that only take a few.

[reneritchie]

Canglong, if anything I said struck to close to home, I apologize, it was not my intent to make you feel bad.

[Geezer]

Canglong Wrote>

Geezer, I believe this is all code meaning the exact information which you request has yet to be declassified for public dissemination by Rene. Email him and wait a few years I am sure he will get back to you. Good luck

Rene Wrote>

Canglong, if anything I said struck to close to home, I apologize, it was not my intent to make you feel bad.

Maybe he's interested in an answer to the original question, Rene, when did Cho-On take WCK to Penang?

Sheldon

Rene, did you get my PM????

[reneritchie]

You mean Great, Great Grandmaster Mr. Cho On sifu sifu? (since he was a chef as well as WCK teacher, it is appropriate you call him sifu twice.)

I'll do an update of Hendrik's article and include more exact dates. Expect it when its posted... 8)