Element Theory

[Serpent]

The Greek elements are Fire, Water, Earth and Air.

The Chinese elements are Earth, Metal, Wood, Fire and Water.

Why?

Why haven't the Chinese recognised air as an element and aren't Wood and Metal a part of Earth?

Discuss.

[Lao_Peng_You]

Not exactly true

prima materia=wood

metal can be switched with air in the 5 elements in the Chinese version.

wood is living, a combination of the other 4 elements, as is prima materia.

"metal" is not in reference completely to the substance, but the color of certain types of "metals".

These are just my observations.

[dezhen2001]

i dont know much but i think air isnt recognised as an element because depending on what its doing and things it can take on the othe relements.

eg. you see a car, so its obviously metal. but if it shoots past you very quickly, it can also have the fire element.

so even something more obvious can be tricky.

im just learning about 5 elements too, and this is somehting hazy from my memory of talking over a dinner, so maybe wrong i dunno :confused:

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
The Greek elements are Fire, Water, Earth and Air.

The Chinese elements are Earth, Metal, Wood, Fire and Water.

Why?

Why haven't the Chinese recognised air as an element and aren't Wood and Metal a part of Earth?

Discuss.

Qi = air/breath

[dezhen2001]

now u opened a huuuge can of worms :D
oh well - will make ur day at work more interesting i guess :p

dawood

[Lao_Peng_You]

To open this up a bit:
creative cycle:
fire>earth>air>water>wood>back to fire

destructive cycle:
wood>earth>water>fire>air>back to wood

In a martial sense, each element can represents a type of fighter or a type of movement.

[Former castleva]

Elements are more like processes to associate things with,as often in Chinese medicine and philosophy.
You can say every human posses a quality from all of the five elements but rarely do you see them on fire,being metal or plain water (even though a lot of the mass if of-)

Besides,Greeks had their own ideas.

[Oso]

I've always thought that fire and air were interchangable in
concept.

I've learned 3 different elemental schemes and forgotten one
of them, well, maybe 2 of them as all I practice is the hsing yi
version I learned.

my take has been that the differences were just semantical as in
different label for same concept. Maybe 'semantical' isn't the best
word but I'm not an english major so....

[Serpent]

Air = Qi. I knew that would crop up.

However, someone also said that air and metal are the same-ish in Chinese theory (good god, I sound like No_Know!) How does that work then?

And Wood is like a fifth element that combines earth with life? So would that be earth with Qi?

[dezhen2001]

whereas a daoist priest or doctor when u need them? :D

dawood

[Lao_Peng_You]

Oso,

Air and Fire are not interchangable. From what I know, FC is right about these being associative things. For example another way to talk about air is minor yang, and fire as major yang. Again, someone who fights like fire would fight in a straight line and go all out. Someone who fights like air would tend to more elusive but not very agressive.

Serpent,

Wood is a combination of all the elements (I meant) not just earth. These elements represent life when combined. Think about your own life in this instance. You need oxygen(air) in combination of H2O(water), a sugar(fire), certain elements like potassium, sodium, or cloride or something else(earth) in order to use energy on the cellular level(wood). Something like that anyway.

Air and metal can be the same for the reason that you breathe in and breathe out. Yin and Yang. Yin is gold in color, and Yang is silver in color in this tradition. (I have put this together from my own observations. Someone can give me a better understanding if they'd like). It does not really have to do with the substance metal. The Chinese like to use allegory to illustrate an idea.

[Serpent]

Any more?

[dezhen2001]

maybe someone who knows TCM can explain more :)

as far as i am right now, they are more a set of principles... eg: different elements relate to different internal organs in the body, different directions etc. xingyiquan also has the 5 elements for the 5 core techniques and they all have a different 'flavour'.

dawood

ps. did u expect anyone whos online at this time to have a rela clue about it serpent? :D

[TaoBoy]

Trying to make a connection here:

Metal is the element of the lungs...

Lungs suck in the air...


How's that?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
did u expect anyone whos online at this time to have a rela clue about it serpent? :D

Good point. Maybe it will be more interesting tomorrow!

[dezhen2001]

lol! not to insult anyone on heres intelligence of course :)

dawood

[Serpent]

Of course.

[dezhen2001]

not bad considering we dont really know - 2 pages and going strong :D

dawood

[Serpent]

That's KFO!

[Oso]

now, I'm confused.

But like I said, I've learned 3 (one of them japanese) schemes
and am evidently confusing them.

I still asleep and will need to review notes again.

and, I am by no means an expert on this.

but, it's a cool subject to think about.

[Mr Punch]

Hi .

The way I understood the Japanese five elements are as in Go-rin-no-sho (Musashi): earth, water, fire, metal, void (air/wind... three for the price of one!:D )...

he associates each one with a set of postures and an attitude.

Most Japanese people I've spoken to seem to know next to nothing about it. I'll have to talk to my kendo sensei and my friend the priest, who are both pretty keyed up on history and philosophy in Jnese tradition.

The way I understood the Taoist way is earth, water, fire, metal, wood... and that they associate these with the five main energy centres (base of the spine, tanden, mid-nipple point, third eye and top of the head). I heard some Taoist ways associate the five postures too (horse, cat, tiger/leopard... and the other two...!).

I was told the five animals each have an element in some theories, and that the Shaolin is different again.

Oh well.

[Oso]

yep, the japanese scheme I learned had void as well.

[count]

Since you all seem interested in this, here's a couple things you can look at while you ponder the five elements in Chinese martial arts and TCM.

Productive and Destructive Five Elements Chart (http://kabooom.com/5elements.gif)
The productive for TCM and the destructive for martial arts. ie: metal chops wood (Hsing-I example) and Water nourishes wood (TCM)

If that doesn't blow your minds out a bit, we use the Five Elements in Bagua too. Only we include internal and external elements.

Five Elements in Bagua (http://kabooom.com/laterheaven2.gif) The relationships to the body and organs are the same in both versions.

Have fun!;)

PS: There is no void in these and also, this is more of a science than a theory should you care to debate.

[Oso]

Thanks count, nice charts, i've got a version of the bagua chart
but not in color. pretty.

looks like we call it a pheonix and you have 'big bird'.
Amusing thoughts of Big Bird as a badazz bagua fighter aside,
I'm curious about the naming convention.

so, the different 'labels' mean slightly different things depending
on the frame of reference (TCM or the martial applicatioin)

So:


metal can be switched with air in the 5 elements in the Chinese version.

...if you are talking about TCM but not martial app's. ?????



To open this up a bit:
creative cycle:
fire>earth>air>water>wood>back to fire


LPY or Count: can either of you explain the logic behind the
progression in this creative cycle? I'll tentativelly agree with
count's pov that it is a science. So, if a science then there
should be a logical explanation of some sort. I have the
same cycle but with metal(gold) instead of air.

again, I am just a student of this stuff and have paid little
or no attention to the TCM side of it so pardon my ignorance

not enough time at work to go into this one deeply

matt

[Repulsive Monkey]

He finally gave a clue away here. The reason why Chinese (or should i be more accurate here with Taoist) thought holds value to the five elements of Water, Wood, Fire, Earth, and Metal is due to the intrinsic relationship between them. This does however discount such other elements as Air (which is seen as a product of earth , wood, water etc.) and also in the western traditions they also include Spirirt as an element too. However back to counts links. The relationship between the elements for the taoist for mutual production is water is the source of wood, wood is the fuel foe fire, the firing of wood leaves the reamins of ash to propogate the soil i.e. earth and ore from the depths of earth is the metal manifest, and metal is merely the solidified version of liquid which when alters resosrts back to a water like state and hence the cycle continues. However there is also the cycle of mutual destruction too which shows how water logging and cause the wood to become flacid, wood in inexcess will cause the fire to go out, fire can kill the crops of the earth, and earth when barren can cause no yielding of ore etc etc. These principles are very important to treating patients in TCM and when a particular organ is either not supporting the next one in line or is in fact over-acting on the next organ in line. A common diagnosis is to look at the specific organ effected and to lok at he organs directly either side of it and treats those instead this also relates to the Taoist concept of Mother child syndrome where you treat the real source to subdue the apprent source of illness.

[count]

Well, Repulsive Monkey beat me to it. That should be enough to think about for around 5000 years. Thanks for the props on the charts. They are just one frame of an interactive CD about 5 elements chikung and bagua chikung. I have been working on in it in my spare time. Maybe someday I'll get it done. BTW, the colors are specific to the elements.

We call it Pheonix too. Just sometimes Sifu says Big, Mythical Bird as a more exact translation. :p

[mantis108]

First off a lot of good points rasied. I quite enjoy the idea of prima materia by LPY. Also Count and Repulsive Money's input are great. Thank you guys.

I think to address the difference in the elements, we will have to look at the attitudes between the western mystics and the eastern mystics.

The Greeks, western mystics, basically views the forces of nature as hostile and alien to human. The Earth, water, Fire, and Wind are collective known as the Titans which in their mythology are even more powerful than their God (ie Zeus, apollo, etc...). The Titans are not to mess with but to be observed and to a certain degree obeied. To harness the power is to temper with the divine. This attitude also appears in their theology later. However, their attitude also brought them great success in developing the discipline of Science. It is of note that Buddhism also speak of these elements and later Zen Buddhism in Japan took similar view on these elements. Mushashi studied Buddhism. He admitted in his "Scrolls of Five Rings" that Buddhism was a major influence in his writting. The Scroll of Earth is the foundation of his style, and so on... Scroll of Wind is his opinions about his contemperary styles. The Scroll of Void is where his arts becames spiritual or as some CMA folks would like to call it beyond internalization. The Void isn't necessarily an element but could arguablely be one.

Chinese mystics view the 5 elements or the 5 phases as holistic and organic. These elements (Water, wood, fire, earth, and metal) present in all things including human. To be more accurate there is a temperal conotation about these elements in Chinese mystics' eyes; therefore, IMHO 5 phases would reflect in that light more about them in translation. To follow nature's design is to live a normal life but to apply them as nature intented is to follow the Tao and return to the orgin. This attitude makes the Chinese mystics to be pragmatic. 5 phases are not just ideas or concepts to be observed and revered but also to apply in everyday life. That is well reflected in the Chinese culture. We can find 5 phases theory in almost any field of studies in Chinese culture. One of these great mystics happened to be a Chinese martial artist, Sun Lutang, who was an adept in 3 major internal styles of Kung Fu - XingYiquan, Taijiquan and Baguaquan. His books clearly reflected the views of the pragmatic approach to seek the union of nature and humanity through a martial discipline. IMHO The 5 phase 2 men form/drill of Xingyiquan is a superb example of the teachings of pragmatic mysticism besides being an excellent form of martial arts.

Mantis108

[count]

That should fill the next 5000 years :eek: :D

[HuangKaiVun]

What's the point of this thread?

Just Serpent being a Serpent, probably.

[Serpent]

Thanks guys, some great answers there. Some food for thought certainly.

Huang, don't worry trying to get the point of this thread. You'd need a brain for that.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Serpent
The Greek elements are Fire, Water, Earth and Air.

The Chinese elements are Earth, Metal, Wood, Fire and Water.

Why?

Why haven't the Chinese recognised air as an element and aren't Wood and Metal a part of Earth?

My belated 2 cents worth.

The origin of Chinese metaphysics was agrarian and they were more interested in the inter-relationship between the elements related to farming for survival. Metal and Wood are separate elements to Earth because metal was used to chop wood and wood was used to break up earth while Air or Qi is implicit in all the Five Elements. .

Whereas the origin of Greek metaphysics was philosophical and they were more interested in observing Nature made up of individual elements. They see both Metal and Wood coming out of Earth, hence there was no need to classify them separately and Air is a distinct element because they don't have the concept of Qi in everything under the sun.

[fiercest tiger]

NICE STUFF GUYS, I have one question. Can we use this when we are fighting? Do you know you are using it, when attacking or are u just going for points hoping you score a destructive cycle type strike etc?

Many of the forms and techniques can all be related to 5 elements one way or another i beleive as well as yin and yang.

Or use it more for the healing arts?

cheers
FT

[Xebsball]

i think its elementary

[Former castleva]

Elements especially evident in dim mak.

[count]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
NICE STUFF GUYS, I have one question. Can we use this when we are fighting? Do you know you are using it, when attacking or are u just going for points hoping you score a destructive cycle type strike etc?

Many of the forms and techniques can all be related to 5 elements one way or another i beleive as well as yin and yang.

Or use it more for the healing arts?

cheers
FT
FT, of course, theoretically you can use the productive and destructive cycle to fight with and get the advantage. One method works more naturally against another. But the point and my understanding of these theories in fighting is, ie: five elements, 6 harmonies, 8 trigrams, yin yang... is that they all represent balance. Yin balances Yang. Wrists balance ankles water cancles fire, etc. etc... They all add up to zero or perfect balance. Balance is a requirment of power.

The style that emphasizes 5 elements the most is Hsing-I. Pao chuan is an uppercut rising like a flame. It comes from the heart area and is the fire element. Combined with a blocking hand rising to the head along side. The punch even comes out through the middle finger which aligns through the heart meridian. The counter that works the best of the five is zuan chauan or water. It's another kind of uppercut with more sinking into the kidney or water organ. the real sinking is not the punch but the blocking hand sinking down. Try all five and you will see it is the natural counter. As in nature the natural defense for fire is water. But no matter what terms you give, it's just a method of explaining balance. Certainly fun to think about though.:cool:

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

I aggree with all your theories and everyone elses. Its nice to be able to see where the counters are in the destruction and creation cycles when the oppponent throws this and that, but what about if you have been taken to the ground and you cannot use your arms?:) One must know the points on the body well enough and use them in an instance to breakdown the opponent using the 5 element theories and yin and yang.......or will most people just try and punch away not really worried what they are hitting?
Hope im making sense here!!:rolleyes:

All the theoies work well as THEORY, but in real life threatening situations can most people pull it off as we dont know what our foe, if he is a good fighter or a crappy fighter.

anyway im blabbling now....lol

FT:)

[Black Jack]

Info on greek elemental theory.

http://ideaplace.org/Chemistry/ChemMisc/GreekElements.html

[Serpent]

Excellent, this topic is really developing. I like Extrajospeh's point about the agrarian anture of the Chinese elements.

So, with regard to fighting, how can we anticipate our opponents elemental preference and counter/cancel it?

[extrajoseph]

One way is to look at his body type. For example, a Wood person is tall and skinny so he will tend to throw long and straight punches. You either "control" him with Metal like (round and cutting) movements to "chop" him up, or you "weaken" him with Fire like (angular and penetrating) movements to "burn" him up.

Another way is to look at the way he moves. For example, a WC guy will tend to move like Fire, so you can either "control" him with "Water" like (random and free flowing) movements to "put him out" or you can "weaken" him with "Earth" like (solid and powerful) movements until he runs out of breath.

Of course, all this is theory and generalisation, in practice you just follow your inner elements with your animal instinct for survival and hope for the best. ;)