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Chang Style Novice
01-30-2003, 06:27 PM
I want to get married. (http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030125/i/1043469408.3489751135.jpg)

Oso
01-30-2003, 07:15 PM
holy schmoly, it's Isis.

and I'm Set, wanna look at my snakes?

Serpent
01-30-2003, 07:31 PM
Good lord!

joedoe
01-30-2003, 07:41 PM
Sorry, the Williams sisters just don't do it for me.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 07:50 PM
me either man, but u have to agree that is an impressive stack! :eek:

dawood

Serpent
01-30-2003, 07:53 PM
You guys are so gay!

joedoe
01-30-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
me either man, but u have to agree that is an impressive stack! :eek:

dawood

My previous GF had a HUGE stack. My current GF is pretty well endowed too.

The Williams sisters, stack or no stack just don't do it for me.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 07:58 PM
Serpent You guys are so gay! nope, just have someone who is MUCH better looking and can also kick higher ;)

dawood

Serpent
01-30-2003, 08:12 PM
Bet she can't serve a 150kmh ace though! ;)

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 08:19 PM
nah but she could kick my head at around 150kmh :p

dawood

TaoBoy
01-30-2003, 08:27 PM
Okay, if we are praising anything other than the 'stack', here's an impressive female athlete:

Layne Beechley - FIVE time world surfing champion!!
























Oh yeah - she's a blond, Aussie surfer girl so you testosterone-filled boys would probably dig her anyway! :)

Serpent
01-30-2003, 08:33 PM
MMmmmLayneBeachley....

*drool*

TaoBoy
01-30-2003, 08:47 PM
Tatiana!

Serpent
01-30-2003, 08:48 PM
Arrogant *****, but bloody lovely! *drooooools*

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 08:56 PM
damm|t taoboy... i thought the gap was a pic and was waiting on it loading on my 28.8k :(

could at least post a link.

dawood

joedoe
01-30-2003, 09:02 PM
Suzie O'Neill.

*droooooooool*

Serpent
01-30-2003, 09:19 PM
Really? Suzie doesn't do it for me.

Dezhen: Tatiana (http://www.tatiana.com.au/)

;)

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:27 PM
shes blonde and dont like her face :eek::(

dawood

Serpent
01-30-2003, 09:31 PM
You're definitely gay.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:33 PM
nah, just dont like blondes

dawood

Chang Style Novice
01-30-2003, 09:33 PM
Show me Layne and Suzie!

Tatiana looks mean.

Serpent
01-30-2003, 09:36 PM
Susie O'Neill (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/8824/susie.html)

Layne (http://content.surfline.com/sw/content/surfaz/beachley_layne.jsp) (Dude, I must have been thinking of someone else! :eek: )

Serpent
01-30-2003, 09:38 PM
Look carefully through Tatiana's site and you'll see a nude shoot she did! *Drooooool*

TaoBoy, what's with Layne Beachley!? Who's that really hot surfer chick?

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:40 PM
no brunettes in australia? :mad:

dawood

Serpent
01-30-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
no brunettes in australia? :mad:

dawood

It's the sun.

Here's a better angle shot of Layne!

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:46 PM
still not exactly great... :confused:

dawood

Serpent
01-30-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
still not exactly great... :confused:

dawood

I agree.

I was thinking of Kara Anne Hemperley, one of hte Billabong girls! ;)

Chang Style Novice
01-30-2003, 09:49 PM
It's not just the chest on Serena - it's the full bod (legs and booty especially), and the face, and most of all the grace of her movements.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:53 PM
****** serpent... ur getting better... she looks barely legal though :p

dawood

Chang Style Novice
01-30-2003, 09:54 PM
What's with her elbows?!!!?

It looks like she didn't know when to tap out from an armbar.

Too skinny, but cute face.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:56 PM
i wondered about that too... very flexible :D

dawood

TaoBoy
01-30-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
still not exactly great... :confused:

dawood

I never said she was a stunner. I said she was a bloody good surfer. :rolleyes:


She did some nude stuff for Black & White mag.
Very interesting shots.

dezhen2001
01-30-2003, 09:59 PM
with that i was referring to the back view of Layne (i think?) not tatiana :D

havent a clue about surfing so take ur word on it :)

time for bed its 5am.

dawood

Chang Style Novice
01-30-2003, 10:01 PM
"I never said she was a stunner. I said she was a bloody good surfer."

Oh yeah! That reminds me. In addition to what I said before, Serena's amazing skill is a big turn on. The fact that she's indisputably the best in the world at something is irresistable.

Serpent
01-30-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
What's with her elbows?!!!?

It looks like she didn't know when to tap out from an armbar.

Too skinny, but cute face.

I concur completely.

And about Serena.

eulerfan
01-31-2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Oh yeah! That reminds me. In addition to what I said before, Serena's amazing skill is a big turn on. The fact that she's indisputably the best in the world at something is irresistable.

I completely agree. He's arguably one of the ugliest men to ever walk the earth but, when I see what Les Claypool does with a bass, he is VERY sexy to me.

Kinjit
01-31-2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
What's with her elbows?!!!?

It looks like she didn't know when to tap out from an armbar.

Too skinny, but cute face.

It's due to the lateral deviation of the forearm at the elbow, termed the carrying angle, which is usually greater in females. Now you now. If none of you guys will have her, I will. :D

Oso
01-31-2003, 06:30 AM
eulerfan, you dig Oysterhead?

Les is de master of bass for sure.

red5angel
01-31-2003, 07:41 AM
mmmmmm, the sisters are hot!!! If I were single I would make myself a patty in that love sandwich.


Eulerfan - When I see Les Claypool play base I think he is sexy too. That guy can play a base in wasy I didn't think possible!

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 07:41 AM
Oh, please. She can barely play, and has the mein of a big whiney spoiled brat. That's NOT attractive.

Oso
01-31-2003, 07:45 AM
Is Anna even legal yet? geez man that's not fair to us old guys.

so, let's get some votes for hottie older women so we don't
look like a bunch of pervs


Susan Sarandon will probably get my vote as one of the all
time greatest looking women.

Geena Davis is high on my list as well. Water wheel torture
scene in Long Kiss Goodnight was killer

Julianne Moore, Nicole Kidman, aahhh Nicole

anyways, gotta go now....

Oso
01-31-2003, 07:45 AM
oh, I guess I was OT since this thread is about women athletes

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 07:46 AM
Is Claypool doing anything these days? I stopped listening to Primus after Tales From the Punchbowl, which is when their schtick started wearing thin for me. Les can play alright, but he needs to not overplay so much. My favorite bassist at the moment (not counting the late Charlie Mingus, who will always be #1) is guy in the Liars, though I can't recall what his name is.

edit after checking allmusic.com

Pat Noecker (Know-kerr? Neck-er?)

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 07:48 AM
ghthomason -

See an optometrist! Nobody with hips and mams like venus' and serena's could ever be reasonably described as butch or unwomanly.

eulerfan
01-31-2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Is Claypool doing anything these days? I stopped listening to Primus after Tales From the Punchbowl, which is when their schtick started wearing thin for me. Les can play alright, but he needs to not overplay so much.

If you could do with a bass what he can do with a bass, you'd show off, too. Admit it. It may be annoying at times but I think it's completely understandable.

That dude has wings on his fingers.

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 08:42 AM
I agree with both annoying and understandable. Problem is, I try to enjoy music, not understand it. Well, mostly I don't try to understand it.

There are lots of virtuosos out there, but not nearly as many great musicians. I don't mind some hyperactivity here and there (one of my favorite guitarists is speedlooney Buckethead, and I adore Raymond Scott's nutty scores that were later integrated into Warner Bros cartoon music), but it has to be in the service of some larger cause to be really interesting. Sometimes less Les would be more Les.

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 09:03 AM
And on the opposite end of attractive human beings and talented musicians, we have WHITNEY HOUSTON!

Interview part 1 (http://www.stavrone.com/WhitneyPArtOne.mp3)
and
Interview part 2 (http://www.stavrone.com/WhitneyPArtTwo.mp3)

This is hilarious, in a sad sad awful way.

red5angel
01-31-2003, 09:17 AM
Oso - if you like Sarandon, then I got someone you need to meet.....

CSN - He still does some work with Sausage as well as some solo stuff form time to time. I have to agree with you on Whitney Houston though......

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 09:20 AM
Did you listen to the interview? "Straight up ghetto" doesn't begin to describe it.

red5angel
01-31-2003, 09:25 AM
I couldn't but I once saw an interview in which she basically admitted she doesn't like or trust white people. Anyone with that sort of attitude gets put on my list of the idiotic.

eulerfan
01-31-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I agree with both annoying and understandable. Problem is, I try to enjoy music, not understand it. Well, mostly I don't try to understand it.


You are correct. That's what I meant. Primus is not enjoyable. However, they are understandable and thus good.

:D ;)

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 09:35 AM
Funny thing - sometimes I enjoy annoying, too.

guohuen
01-31-2003, 09:45 AM
The Williams sisters are proof of the existence of a supreme being. Whitney is proof of the need for rehabs.

eulerfan
01-31-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Did you listen to the interview? "Straight up ghetto" doesn't begin to describe it.

That was brilliant. That woman interviewing her was quite skillfully drawing out the ghetto in Whitney.

In a highly articulated way, she asks, "How do you get along with Bobby's baby's mother?"

Chang Style Novice
01-31-2003, 10:44 AM
And just to make sure this thread doesn't actually settle into any specific topic...

Weird wierd weird weird weird! (http://www.carbon.host.sk/teeth/in_the_washroom.htm)

dezhen2001
01-31-2003, 12:28 PM
wish i could hear the interviews but im on dial up :(

dawood

Oso
01-31-2003, 02:07 PM
r5a, thanks but I'm pretty attached. :D

but, yea, I still like to watch Rocky Horror every once in a
while just for her in the stage show

Serpent
02-02-2003, 05:00 PM
This thread is kinda cool.

Oso
02-02-2003, 05:10 PM
that's cuz athletic women rule...

oh, he ll, women rule.

Serpent
02-02-2003, 06:02 PM
Good point. Well made.

dezhen2001
02-02-2003, 06:29 PM
agreed, which is the only reason i am up at 1.30 am when i gotta get up at 7am ready for university :D

dawood

Chang Style Novice
02-02-2003, 07:57 PM
http://users.1st.net/abaddon/ggrap.wmv

This has been posted elsewhere, but I just want to give it up for both of these warriors. The spirit of Boudicca lives on!

Although the thongs and skirts were maybe not completely neccesary.

Serpent
02-02-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
http://users.1st.net/abaddon/ggrap.wmv

This has been posted elsewhere, but I just want to give it up for both of these warriors. The spirit of Boudicca lives on!

Although the thongs and skirts were maybe not completely neccesary.

I can't think of a more necessary aspect of any women's NHB.

TaoBoy
02-02-2003, 08:00 PM
I'm over Anna. It's just a pity I was never under her.

Serena is definitely one hunka whoa-man. ;)

Whitney Houston is a complete fckhd.

I have one more word to add:

Kylie

Serpent
02-02-2003, 08:02 PM
Kylie a sportswoman is she?

She has a world class ass, but that's not a recognised sport outside of Brazil. Though it should be.

Oh yes, it should be.

SevenStar
02-02-2003, 08:02 PM
yeah, kylie's nice, especially considering her age.

Serpent
02-02-2003, 08:07 PM
What do you mean? She's only like 27 or something.

TaoBoy
02-02-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
What do you mean? She's only like 27 or something.

Nah, she's past the big 3 - 0.

SevenStar
02-02-2003, 08:08 PM
the williams sisters are awesome.

dezhen2001
02-02-2003, 08:09 PM
shes mid 30's man :)

dawood

TaoBoy
02-02-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
Kylie a sportswoman is she?

In my world - she is in a league of her own. (Tenuous sporting reference.)

Chang Style Novice
02-02-2003, 08:13 PM
Also, to GHThomason (although he's not here right now)...

That clip illustrates why women with strong arms are so sexy - the better to spank you with my dear!

If past thirty is in any way shape or form too old, then I am too old. And I'm the same age Audrey Hepburn was when she made Charade. And the first thing I'm doing when they perfect time travel and turning human beings into movie characters is becoming Cary Grant in that pic so I can seduce her.

Serpent
02-02-2003, 08:21 PM
Wow, in her thirties, eh?

That's still way far from old though. You kids have no idea.

Chang Style Novice
02-02-2003, 08:27 PM
Seriously - here's Hepburn in a still from the movie Charade I mentioned. Tell me she ain't sexy. I dare ya.

http://www.duke.edu/~vqn/ah36.jpg

Serpent
02-02-2003, 08:29 PM
She got a neck like a chewed pencil.

dezhen2001
02-02-2003, 08:31 PM
her neck is like... really long :eek:

dawood

Chang Style Novice
02-02-2003, 08:31 PM
...but that's sexy though, right?;)

Actually, I changed the pic - turned out the first one was from a different movie set in Paris.

Serpent
02-02-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
...but that's sexy though, right?;)

Actually, I changed the pic - turned out the first one was from a different movie set in Paris.

Now she got a neck like a turtle.

Chang Style Novice
02-02-2003, 08:38 PM
Audrey Hepburn is a no-go for you guys...

Are you sure you aren't eunuchs or something?:rolleyes:

Serpent
02-02-2003, 08:46 PM
Hey, you're the weird one here!

Serpent
02-03-2003, 05:09 PM
On the subject of the Williams sisters, this is a gag for those of you that find them a little too butch:

On the subject of drugs in tennis, the Williams sisters were recently discussing this in the warm-up room before a doubles match.

"I think Dad might be slipping us steriods" whispered Serena.

"What makes you say that?" replied a stunned Venus.

"Well" , started Serena embarassingly , "I've started to grow hair on parts of my body that have never had hair before!".

"Really? Like where?" asked Venus.

" Like all over my balls!" replied Serena.

:D

TaoBoy
02-03-2003, 05:12 PM
I just heard that one last night.

ROTFL.

TaoBoy
02-03-2003, 05:13 PM
Aside from nude jelly wrestling I think beach volleyball could be one of the greatest female sports of all time.

Thoughts?

Serpent
02-03-2003, 05:25 PM
In all seriousness, I love to watch gymnastics and while the male gymnastics is incredible for power and technique, etc., there's something enchanting about a truly great female gymnast. Someone with real grace and control.

And (for the Aussies) don't you love it when Roy & HG call the gymnastics! ;)

TaoBoy
02-03-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
In all seriousness, I love to watch gymnastics and while the male gymnastics is incredible for power and technique, etc., there's something enchanting about a truly great female gymnast. Someone with real grace and control.

And (for the Aussies) don't you love it when Roy & HG call the gymnastics! ;)

Aaah, Roy & HG. I love when they call the Rugby State of Origin and I don't even like rugby.

As for female gymnasts - don't dig em. Their bodies have been ruined by their training practices and their hormone systems are rooted!

Serpent
02-03-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by TaoBoy
As for female gymnasts - don't dig em. Their bodies have been ruined by their training practices and their hormone systems are rooted!

You've obviously never slept with a gymnast! ;)

TaoBoy
02-03-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Serpent


You've obviously never slept with a gymnast! ;)

No, not a gymnast. But an extremely flexible martial artist. Yes.

Mmmm flexible.

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:07 PM
As impressed as I am with the grace, strength, flexibility, and all around athleticism of gymnasts, I don't really think I can call it a sport. Judging is too subjective, too based on aesthetics (although not to as high a degree as figure skating and stuff.) I want more of an inflexible standard in place. You hit the ball, you miss the ball. You knock the guy out, you get knocked out. You reach the finish line first, the other guy reaches it first.

This is NOT intended as a knock against gymnasts, skaters, etc. I do not place artistic/athletic achievements on a higher plateau than objective athletic achievements. I just think there's a significant difference in the nature of the two beasts, and that our words for them should reflect that difference.

TaoBoy
02-03-2003, 08:15 PM
Fair point CSN.

Take synchronising swimming for example - wtf?

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:17 PM
cuz I can....






"chill me, thrill me, fulfill me...creature of the night"

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:18 PM
dang was she hot

Serpent
02-03-2003, 08:25 PM
CSN, that's a very good point. However, when I watch the gymnastics I don't really care who wins .I just love to watch what those people can do.

But your point about it as "sport" is valid.

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:26 PM
That sure was a long time ago. She wasn't exactly an uggo in "Witches of Eastwick" you know...

Of course, that was a long time ago too...

I'm OLD.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:28 PM
i hear ya, I still think she is fine.

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:29 PM
> CSN, that's a very good point. However, when I watch the gymnastics I don't really care who wins .I just love to watch what those people can do.


Me, too. Same with talented dancers. Doesn't make Gene Kelly's performance in "Singing in the Rain" the same thing as a brilliant long jump, though. I don't know why I'm harping on this, though, since everyone here seems to agree.

TaoBoy
02-03-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Oso
cuz I can....


"chill me, thrill me, fulfill me...creature of the night"


Normally the boobie shot would make me worry about getting fired. But considering I just quit - I don't care.

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:30 PM
Who are we talking about?

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:30 PM
I bet her man Tim makes her wear that stuff on saturday nights.


and dang, isn't he like 15 years her junior?

you know she still got's it if she can get a guy that much
younger.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:32 PM
eulerfan's pick was more revealing.

so was the clip of wimmen's bazilian jujutsu

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:34 PM
Susan Sarandon

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:35 PM
Sorry, she doesn't really do it for me for some reason.

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:36 PM
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0179098/12_CT-11114R.jpg

This is a pretty recent shot of Sarandon, from Moonlight Mile. That picture was released last year, so was probably filmed the year before that. According to the imdb bio, that would have made her 55 at that time.

Lookin' good for double nickels!

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:36 PM
Me, too. Same with talented dancers. Doesn't make Gene Kelly's performance in "Singing in the Rain" the same thing as a brilliant long jump, though. I don't know why I'm harping on this, though, since everyone here seems to agree.

Gene Kelly was kicking over chairs/sofas and riding them down
before Jackie Chan was born.

If none of you martial artist's have never done any research
on Martha Graham you might. Some of her statements on
body movement totally parallel.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:39 PM
you just need the proper perspective and that is usually
time.


I wish I could remember that limerick about older women
not telling, never yelling and grateful as hell. I have certainly
learned that lesson in my short life.

Serpent
02-03-2003, 08:41 PM
There was a thread around here somewhere about Gene Kelly and his physical talents. Maybe do a search for it.

I think HKV had a lot of input on that thread so you'll have to ignore large chunks of it.

And yeah, Susan Sarandon is still fiiiine!

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:42 PM
I am not saying that she isn't a beautiful woman, I am just saying she isn't really my type I guess. She is beautiful, but doesn't get my blood pumping.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:44 PM
that's good cuz I'd hate to have to travel 5000 miles to kick yer
azz for scopin' my women.:D

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:45 PM
Now Renee Russo gets my blood pumping :)

Then there is Jessica Alba *drool*

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:46 PM
I know SO little about dance...it's an amazing artform.

Jackie Chan, of course, is not so much technically trained as a martial artist as he is a dancer. Beijing Opera is theater, not fighting. Once again - no dis, and I'm sure even though he's many years my senior he'd whup the living crap out of my without breaking a sweat. He's said in interviews I've read that Buster Keaton, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, Ray Bolger, etc, etc. were huge influences on his on-screen style. Many of you probably remember him removing dog poo from his shoe in Police Story with a Michael Jackson moonwalk.

I saw the Martha Graham dance troupe once when I was in high school, and some other dance troupes as well. A couple of years ago I saw the Alvin Ailey troupe. I also know the name Merce Cunningham, and I know he was a collaborator and intimate of the avant-garde composer John Cage. I know I see many amazing moves from folks in videos and movies and such.

That's all I really know about dance.

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Oso
that's good cuz I'd hate to have to travel 5000 miles to kick yer
azz for scopin' my women.:D

BTW last night Susan asked me to tell you that you were a dud lay. She much prefers my technique, but I last longer because she doesn't really turn me on :D

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:47 PM
yep, i'm there with renee as well.

did I mention Nicole Kidman. ahhhhhhh.

who the he ll could tom have been shaggin that was better
than Nicole.

for god's sake, if you are going to screw around...step up!!

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:49 PM
Mmmmmm, Nicole. A girl I know spent new year's eve with her. Apparently she is a very nice lady.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:51 PM
That's IT. Expect to see me within the hour.

That will give you plenty of time to warm up.


smack her for me for being a two timin' ho while you're at it.

three-timin, I reckon.

bi tch

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:53 PM
Oh yeah - one more thing I know about dance.

A few years ago, Harold Nicholas, the last surviving brother of the Nicholas Brothers tap-dance act died. In memoriam, the News Hour showed some old footage of part of his act from some b+w musical - 30s or 40s, I'd guess.

There was a big arched staircase on the set, and for the big finale they did one of the most amazing things I've seen.

One of them dropped into a split on the lowest stair of the stage left side of the arch. The other hopped over his head, into a split on the next highest stair. The first one popped up from the split, leapfrogged up over his brothers head, and landed two steps up in another split. The second guy repeated the feat. This continued until they had gone all the way up one side of the arch and down the other!

My mind is still kinda blown, just thinking about it.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:53 PM
and anyone else...

If you get the opportunity to see a troupe called 'Momix', do it.

simply amazing.

they play a lot of university and city stages.

joedoe
02-03-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Oso
That's IT. Expect to see me within the hour.

That will give you plenty of time to warm up.


smack her for me for being a two timin' ho while you're at it.

three-timin, I reckon.

bi tch

She said she liked being smacked ...




























but only by me :D

Chang Style Novice
02-03-2003, 08:55 PM
Momix is sort of a wierdo-mime thing, isn't it? I think I may have seen them as well. I definitely saw Mummenshanz, who fit that description, and use giant freaky masks.

Oso
02-03-2003, 08:58 PM
ok, I'll concede that you have continental advantage.

and it's 11pm est and I need my beauty sleep.

Oso
02-03-2003, 09:00 PM
I wouldn't have called it that but it was silent, not even very
much music with a lot of light tricks for some of what they did.
but the physicallity of what they were doing is on par with
your step leaping tap dancers. just amazing.

(currently thinking about how strong my inner thighs would have
to be to do that step leaping thing from a split, which I can't do)

SevenStar
02-04-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Serpent
Wow, in her thirties, eh?

That's still way far from old though. You kids have no idea.

nah, it's not OLD, like older than stone old, but that's not the avg. 30 something body.