Joe Lewis on Bruce Lee and what makes a fighter.

[rogue]

Yeah, this has been posted here before but it's still good. (http://www.cityonfire.com/unknown/interviews/lewis/)

[diego]

hm, half way through the article, but my thoughts on bruce's JKD:
i think what bruce was about was what most traditionjal masters such as a sun lu tang were about, or these other artists who mastered two or three styles and made a new system...such as whoever founded choy li fut style etc...then mix all that with the time bruce was in hong kong, and all he said about the masters there was that they all have these bellys and talk about thier chi...wich bruce growing up reading all the kf comics and talking with yip man and hearing his scientific theorys on martial art...bruce decided to call chinese martial arts crap...in that people respect the name more then trying to make thier skill stand up to the name...such as a son of a legendary master who never trained HARDCORE but after the master passes the son gets rich off his pops name...so bruce was dissing peeps caught up in the myths of kf and not say Caught Up In The Action!.

from this peeps started to diss bruce saying he tried to make his own art...when really imo just like sun lu tang or the founders of choy li fut, he was just trying to impart what worked for him.


i think he was trying to scientifically relate the processes of the great kf-men of the past...most bagua guys do hsing yi... many say ip man at least had knowledge of most kf in hk etc...so he would have known what he was up agianst with his wing chun, but also by understanding other styles, then ip would be capable to make realistic decisions to master wing chun as he felt this system was best for him!.

scientyifically relate the processes of the great kf-men of the past...you get your base in your first martial art, then any other methods, styles or systems you study is just like adding new units of ammunition for your gun "mans-body".

now bruce talks about unless you have three arms, all martial arts "complete martial art" are related, as its all just footwork and punching and kicking, wich goes back to the days when neanderthal first upped cromagnon mans bannanna...thats all obvious application related.

Now peeps say the only thing differant then say a karate or a taichi is thier jings, or the way the katas build your muscles differntiattes the ways of your styles particular Power...i think bruce in his ego, was prolly hoping with the age of science...that he could map out the perfect forms, so any man bieng kareem abdul jabbar or a african pygmie could train these sets and would build thier frame to the highest skill possibble...something like bruce was prolly thinking what if modern man with his scientific machines were to go back in time to the circumstances around chen village and remake tai chi...with all our knowledge of anatomy and biology i would think they would make a better form of tai chi then the great masters limited to 16th century science could ever come up with.

But he had movies to make...but i truely do feel along these lines is what bruce hoped to revolutionize with his main love martial art!.

gonna read the rest of the article, but thats how i feel about certian aspects of the great lee debate!.

[diego]

* On K1- The JKD guys would get SLAUGHTERED if they competed even on a lower K1 level,such as the elimination K1 fights.What the K1 fighters do,especially their 'cut kicking' skills,what you may call inside/outside leg kicks would totally dominate what is done in 'classical JKD'.

Anyone know what he's talking about "cut-kicking skills?."

[Losttrak]

I believe he is talking about a cutting kick... like a standing leg sweep. Throw a low roundhouse kick and dont snap out until right before your knee is aimed at the leg... the snap, when combined with the follow-thru momentum, will really slam/sweep that leg hard.

[yenhoi]

Alot of BL's **** talking was just that - **** talking, picking fights, testing.

I dont see why a JKD or Jun Fan guy couldent handle cut kicks, thats just silly talk.

Kareem abdul jabbar would have a hard time in any sort of cookie cutter type approach from any martial art. Since Mr Bruce isent alive any more, Id say let his students speak for his hands, his skill as a martial artist and teacher is very clear.

[LEGEND]

I have to agree with JOE about sparring with JUN FAN/JKD guys. Most of them seem to have trouble INTERCEPTING techs. Once they can't intercept it...they're target practice. I've seen boxers that practice intercepting but that's AFTER they learn how to absorb/block. Seems like JUN FAN/JKD guys want to INTERCEPT before learning how to get HIT.

[MightyB]

Bruce Lee without the hype.

What was depressing about the article was the fact that people had the opportunity to pick the brain of one of the best real MA fighters of our time and they kept asking him questions about Bruce Lee. Seems like a wasted opportunity.

[dezhen2001]

to be honest if i hadnt seen tiger cage i wouldnt have known who joe lewis was :D i think it must have been a BL specific interview. Some of it did seem to be more like sour grapes though but it was good to hear about training without the hype.

dawood

[MightyB]

Some of it did seem to be more like sour grapes though but it was good to hear about training without the hype.

Actually, the seemingly sour grapes comments are consistent with the real fighters who trained with (not under) BL like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Anyone know what he's talking about "cut-kicking skills?."

A cut kick is a kick to the support leg, while an attacker is making a kick.

ex. you roundhouse me to the thigh. As I see this motion, I kick you on the inside thigh of your support leg with a round kick.

Result, Your kick will have less power, you may fall, and kicks to the inside hurt..

I need to start a thread on "combat sport terminology"...

[Repulsive Monkey]

Please do not be fooled inot thinking that you can compare Bruce Lee to Sun Lu tang. That is an out right insult to the Sun Style of Taiji.

[red5angel]

what is an 'educated' jab?

[ShaolinTiger00]

an "educated" jab is the practice of fighting behind the jab. Basically you'll be pumping your jab all fight long, to measure the distance, immediately thrown at the first signs of motion, and to set up your combinations.

It is a very safe and effective style for ring fighting, where you can keep at longer range without the fear of a takedown or throw.

from ringside.com (great site)

The jab is equivalent to a basketball player's jump shot or a baseball player's swing. It is the most fundamental offensive (and defensive) punch in boxing. It serves innumerable purposes as a strategic weapon. It sets up more powerful shots, keeps your opponent off balance, can be used to dictate the pace of the fight, and buys time for you.


Throughout boxing history there have been numerous boxers who have demonstrated the effectiveness of a good jab. Larry Holmes, Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali are a few of the names that immediately come to mind. They have literally won fights and dictated the outcome with the use of an effective jab. There have, however, been a few boxers who have been successful in the sport without the extensive use of the jab. Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier rarely used the jab, but their physical build and boxing styles didn't rely as much on the jab as it did power. They were still able to compete at the top of their game, but were often defeated by those boxers who used the jab as a weapon. Ali used the jab to keep Frazier out of punching range and Buster Douglas never allowed Mike Tyson on the inside where he could capitalize on his power. The formula is simple: a tall boxer who is competing against a shorter opponent would most likely try to "stick" the jab as much as possible, not giving the opponent the opportunity to hit him. Conversely, the smaller boxer wouldn't want to throw many jabs because of the reach differentiation. Rather, he would want to slip and counter while attempting to get on the inside. Getting past a strong jab is difficult for any boxer, regardless of his size.

The bottom line is you should use the jab often. Master it and its different uses. Whether you use it in competition or not, it should begin each training session as it does each combination.

[red5angel]

Thanks ST00!!

[red5angel]

"the emotional definition of their footwork"

this sounds like a JKD thing? What does it mean?

[ShaolinTiger00]

redangel - I skimmed the article, but believe it was in regards to his comment that Bruce was not only mobile but was committed to his entry. He committed to the intent of his actions.

[red5angel]

ST - I saw another quote that sort of backs up that thought. I am not sure I fully understand the concept however.

[ShaolinTiger00]

If you read about Bruce long enough, like all men he evolves. Early in Bruce's career he was an advocate of wing chun. Now while we may debate the techniques of WC being effective it carried a principle that is very smart - Efficient movement.

fast forward 10 more years to Bruce's JKD and you can see that he still wanted economy of movement, and didn't like anything extraneous. ( a little ironic in that he later became an advocate of the feint..)

This practicality in mindset made bruce's movement committed. When he bridged the gap he didn't hesitate. He came with purpose. (whether he could back it up with anything effectively is open to debate)

[diego]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Anyone know what he's talking about "cut-kicking skills?."

A cut kick is a kick to the support leg, while an attacker is making a kick.

ex. you roundhouse me to the thigh. As I see this motion, I kick you on the inside thigh of your support leg with a round kick.

Result, Your kick will have less power, you may fall, and kicks to the inside hurt..

I need to start a thread on "combat sport terminology"...

Thats wierd bruce didnt show joe any cut kicks, as kung fu has many of those...I'm sure wing chun uses that tactic, but i know for sure hungga has these!..?
Thanks for your reply shaolin:)


and lol at peeps misreading my first post...like i said about the sun lu tang comment...peeps care about the name more then getting caught up in the action...Blah

whoever wrote that dont feel disrespected as im not offended by you trying to put me in check...but the issues blah...On to the next thread:).

[rogue]

Why does anybody think the Lewis interview was sour grapes?
I think Joe points out the difference between a martial artists(kata, some sparring, drills) and a fighter(one who fights) quite well.


Joe Lewis: I never sparred with BL.We did limitation sparring drills.He had the speed and the power to be a world class boxer.I do not know what he did to prove he could do 10 or 12 rounds or what test he endured to show he could take a punch.thirdly.to make it in the fight game,no promoter is going to back unless he knows you have a strong will to continue at all costs.For example what would you do if you got 3 ribs broken.If you're a grappler,what would you do if your shoulder was dislocated.These questions need to be answered. Unfortunately in Bruce's case they never were.I never stood in front of another human who was a quick as him.He not only had the quickness but he had the inner confidence to muster the conviction to do so.I've seen other who had the speed but lack conviction,or vice versa.he was like ali,he had both.I stood before both of these men,so I know.

And even with some very good attributes you physically may not be cut out for a long career in the ring.


Joe Lewis: Physical assets-He had gifted quickness.There's a differnce between quickness and fastness.He had very low fat body composition.He had thick shoulders, quick hands,and slim strong legs.And it appeared he had a good torso,that being the key to explosiveness in any athlete.He was coordinated.Moved very well on his feet, in particular his footwork.

* His liabilities-He had a long skinny neck, which is an indication a person can't take a punch,or a choke hold.His rib cage was very flat,which means a good liver shot on the right side of the body,or a good heart shot on the left side wouldn't be alot of padding to guard against a contussion or damage to one of these arteries.If you look at his back between his shoulder blades,there's not alot of thickness in the lower part of the trapezious muscles.This is an indication that he possibly couldn't hit as hard as people elude to.His bones were very thin.Typically people with small bones don't hit hard-a Sugar Ray Leonard physical type.These people tend to knock people out with a 2-3 punch combination,as opposed to a single strike knock out,which perhaps a Rocky Marciano or a Jack Dempsey would posses. BL had real small ankles as well as small joints in the knees.I would imagine him to have some joint problems later in his life,especially if he did alot of kicking on the heavy bag,or the round kicks against the banana bag to develop his shin bones.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
redangel - I skimmed the article, but believe it was in regards to his comment that Bruce was not only mobile but was committed to his entry. He committed to the intent of his actions.

I think it's just that.

It's about not being half-arsed about your penetrative footwork. Go in with as much power transfer from feet through hips, upwards and outwards, as you can. Fast and committed.

The closest I've got to pulling this off is in kendo, which is very good at fast explosive entrances, and explosive exits for that matter if need be...

By this I mean being able to back off very very quickly without compromising your balance, at the same time as delivering a very powerful strike - of course boxing's got it too, but I doubt many boxers work on the same kind of distancing that a kendoka needs... and that kind of distancing is useful to suddenly get to long kicking range if you're in trouble. Haven't practised it against a good shoot recently but I'm sure there good be worse methods.

If you can find a good kendoka to show you their footwork, although the power transfer to the strike is different to anything you'll be able to use in the ring, it still has very useful applications and I'm sure you'll find it interesting. It filled in one of the gaps in making my WC footwork more effective (I know the words WC, effective and footwork are rarely seen in one sentence, but...!;) :D ).



Interesting article and thread. Thanks peeps.

I badly need to educate my jab before my jaw gets its university degree!:eek:

[diego]

Originally posted by rogue
Why does anybody think the Lewis interview was sour grapes?
I think Joe points out the difference between a martial artists(kata, some sparring, drills) and a fighter(one who fights) quite well.



Rogue, im glad you posted this as i wanted to ask yall about bruce and sparring. In linda lees bio of bruce it states bruces main thing with martial art was throwing on padded gear and all-out sparring...then i read Mr.Lewis mention he only chi sao'ed with bruce...Anyone know who his sparring partners were?.

[rogue]

I've wondered about that too diego and this is just my guess. Lee may have gone all out with Inosanto and others at or below his level, but not with guys like Norris or Lewis who were fighters. Lee had some ego and may have avoided the chance of being whooped by those he "coached".

[diego]

Rogue, Makes sence don't it!.
Trying to build your name to get into hollywood...no point in having your name torn down, before one really get's started:) .

Do you know if chuck sparred with him?...whos the other fellow...mike stone isnt it? bob wall? dang cant remember the other champ he coached!?.

[LEGEND]

BRUCE didn't spar with the tops. It is not too wierd...Ali didn't spar with Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc... he had his own UKEs. I read in CHUCK NORRIS's book Inner "sumthang" that they played sparred alot...like non contact. Where Chuck was throwing spin kicks and Bruce was trying to parry and dodge it. Other than that...no full contact gear sparring I've ever heard of with the Mike Stones and Norris.

[rogue]

I agree that it wasn't too weird, Legend. Something that we all have to keep in mind is that Lee wasn't a fighter, he studied fighting but wasn't himself a fighter. Not to take anything away from him but it's a matter of keeping Lees legacy in perspective.

[MightyB]

I read in CHUCK NORRIS's book Inner "sumthang" that they played sparred alot...like non contact. Where Chuck was throwing spin kicks and Bruce was trying to parry and dodge it.

Chuck also states in the book that he pretty much dominated Bruce Lee with those kicks and BL was his Beitch. You forgot to mention that.