OT: Zim, do you watch Angel?

[Braden]

OT: Zim, do you watch Angel? Of Angel/Buffy/Joss Whedon fame?

I was marvelling at the Lacanian-ness of it just now... but I'm afraid to post on boards more related to film/literary criticism, in fear of getting Zizek-brand Lacanians responding. I can't tend to follow what they say, which seems to be more about postmodernity and capitalism than the Other and the signifier.

Of course, anyone else can respond too... not that I imagine anyone will... I just couldn't manage to PM Zim. :(

[Serpent]

You're weird.

[Braden]

Maybe...

Look at this cute puppy. http://www.zperonowki.com/eng/litterA/AnubisWolf/gallery/cat124.html

[Xebsball]

They're cute.

[ZIM]

Sorry you couldn't PM me- don't know why...

No, can't say I've ever really watched Angel, or Buffy for that matter...guess I'm the weird one!

I do know they're popular, at least :D I think I saw maybe 2 episodes.

What caught your eye??

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
Maybe...

Look at this cute puppy. http://www.zperonowki.com/eng/litterA/AnubisWolf/gallery/cat124.html

Oh man, I want him!

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, I did her. :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Yup, I did her. :D

No, Buffy is the daughter. You did her momma.

[Serpent]

Then she died.

[Royal Dragon]

Nope, I did buffy, after she came back to life from Willows Magic spell. She's the counseler in her sister's school this season. She is of age now, so I get to do her if I want. Last year though, she was jail bait.

By the way, I did Willow too. Zander is ****ed.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Nope, I did buffy, after she came back to life from Willows Magic spell. She's the counseler in her sister's school this season. She is of age now, so I get to do her if I want. Last year though, she was jail bait.

By the way, I did Willow too. Zander is ****ed.

That makes you a lesbian.

[Braden]

Ah... well, I wanted to know if my understanding of basic Lacan is vaguely approaching useful. My Lacanian inadequacies and your ignorance of the show probably makes it an impossible task. But, for the sake of proving Serpent right about me...

Well... Ok, there's this character Angel. He's a vampire. I'm thinking a vampire is a psychotic in the Lacanian sense. Angel was sired by a single woman who then became his consort. So he literally lacked the paternal function, and had no compunction against becoming object a to the mOther's jouissance (and literally did so). So lacking the paternal function and thus castration, he is not introduced normally/neurotically into the Symbolic. In general, as a vampire he's outside society's demands (reiterating being outside the Symbolic). Specifically, the vampiric predatory act gives him jouissance (literally) through an Other (acting as object a for him); in the vampiric fiction the blood/life he drains is the very essence of the victim, thus creating an idea of direct interaction (rather than the signification of the symbolic order. so thus true jouissance). So if we take the vampire to be the psychotic, he is introduced not into the normal/neurotic Symbolic via the paternal function, but instead his (quasi?) symbolic is structured around the vampiric heredity (ie. the delusion for the psychotic). If this is the delusion of the psychosis, then the symptom of the psychosis is the vampiric violence acts (acting out; the real not made symbolic, so discharged).

Now, in the show fiction, this Angel character is cursed with a soul so that he would live eternally feeling guilt for his past atrocities as a vampire, with the conscription that he never experience an instant moment of true happiness (jouissance).

So... he is introduced into the normal/neurotic Symbolic: he is thrust into the demands of society; with the essential requirement that he not experience jouissance: the paternal function/castration. This splits him from consort with his vampiric mother, as well as making him unable to achieve jouissance through the vampiric predatory act (due to guilt, the constraints of the symbolic). So his symptom is cured through the paternal function, introducing him into the Symbolic.

If we consider the Name-of-the-Father/paternal metaphor... after the cure, the meaninglessness of life is repressed by the idea (in the fiction of the story) that he make amends for these past actions for which he feel guilt. Thus the guilt acting as paternal function also acts as paternal metaphor.

Now Angel (the 'cured' Angel... as a soul-less vampire, he went by the name Angelus) has a son Connor. The plot here would take longer to describe, but the interesting part is that Connor pursues Angel's lover Cordelia (Connor never knew his literal mother). The main plot involves what plays out in Angel's implied demand that Connor (a young adolescent) not be Cordelia's lover (ie. Angel fulfilling the paternal function). The real clever part is that the intricacies of this demand revolve around Connor distinguishing the character's of the vampire Angelus and the present Angel... as well Connor was taken from his parents and raised by another man to make the entire purpose of his life killing Angelus... thus, the problem of Name-of-the-Father for Connor (in the fiction) LITERALLY concerns distinguishing the _Name_ of his father.

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, thats why I get ALL the girls, not just the strait ones :D

[Royal Dragon]

Your way to inot this. Tha whole show is about watching girls kick ass, and having sex fantasies about them. Angel, is the Girls version of the same.

I like watching the older Buffy's, and noticing how her fighting style went from really bad Tae Kwon Do to halfway deacent Wu Shu over the last few years. She's DEFINATELY training hard, the improvement in her skills is very noticable, especially this last season. I wonder who's training her for the show?

I watch it for that, and the fact that Buffy has a nice tushy. :eek: :D :D

[Braden]

I think Anya is really gorgeous, personally. The personality helps alot too.

[Serpent]

Braden, it's just a show dude.

[Braden]

I know, silly, I watch it!

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Your way to inot this. Tha whole show is about watching girls kick ass, and having sex fantasies about them. Angel, is the Girls version of the same.

I like watching the older Buffy's, and noticing how her fighting style went from really bad Tae Kwon Do to halfway deacent Wu Shu over the last few years. She's DEFINATELY training hard, the improvement in her skills is very noticable, especially this last season. I wonder who's training her for the show?

I watch it for that, and the fact that Buffy has a nice tushy. :eek: :D :D

You know that a body double does most of her action, right?

Willow is definitely hotter than Buffy.

And Cordelia is the hots in Angel.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
I know, silly, I watch it!

LOL! And you watch it hard!

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Serpent


LOL! And you watch it hard!

By that I mean with great attention to detail, not aroused.

Although it would be fair enough if you were aroused too!

[Braden]

Cordelia was pretty cute the first couple seasons of Buffy. I dunno about now though... the Angel show is all about Fred.

Could just be a question of taste though... versus not having any! :p

...Ah... I actually don't watch it with much detail.

I just watch it after several hours of reading Lacan in detail.

Like when you spend all day in the ocean, and then when you go to bed, you feel like your futon is surging back and forth.

No, wait... that could just be all about the sex too... maybe you guys are right. :(

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
No, wait... that could just be all about the sex too... maybe you guys are right. :(

Ah, the dawn of realisation! ;)

[Serpent]

Talking of Dawn, Buffy's sister Dawn will be well worth one in a few years time. She's growing up nice! ;)

This thread is becoming really quite mysoginistic! ;)

[ZIM]

By the way, I did Willow too.

But it was on a special episode of 'Blossom". :D

[FatherDog]

I watch Buffy. I don't watch Angel, because I train during it and my VCR won't tape things. I watched up to the end of the season where they went to the Host's home dimension.

I enjoy the show. I don't know from Lacanian, though, so I can't be of much help.

I do agree, it's all about Fred, though. :D

[ZIM]

Looking at it all-

first impressions:
yep. thats alot for me to take in when not familiar with the show. :(


Specifically, the vampiric predatory act gives him jouissance (literally) through an Other (acting as object a for him); in the vampiric fiction the blood/life he drains is the very essence of the victim, thus creating an idea of direct interaction (rather than the signification of the symbolic order. so thus true jouissance).

This is interesting....as I remember/understand it, jouissance involves a demand for the unconditional love of the Other and other non-existant things [;) ] . in a sense then, having an avenue towards true jouissance is a mark of psychosis? hmmm

Psychosis is also an entanglement of the symbolic order, so I'm trying to figure out that end right now [names of the father/les nom du pere] ...hmmm!


introduced not into the normal/neurotic Symbolic via the paternal function, but instead his (quasi?) symbolic is structured around the vampiric heredity...

cursed with a soul so that he would live eternally feeling guilt for his past atrocities as a vampire, with the conscription that he never experience an instant moment of true happiness (jouissance).

any symbolic order will do for the initial paternal function. A 'warm body father' is not what is referred to, nor is the maternal referred to in this sense. Guilt is the classic vehicle for the superego, which in a Lacanian sense can be likened to les nom du pere, IMO.

silly as it sounds: do the vampires in this series see themselves in mirrors? When you say 'sired', was Angel ever human? Hope you can see what I'm asking, non-important tho it might be.
--------------------------------

I do need to look at this in a deeper sense before I comment any further, no matter how lame that sounds! :)
Tomorrow then?

[Braden]

"jouissance involves a demand for the unconditional love of the Other and other non-existant things..in a sense then, having an avenue towards true jouissance is a mark of psychosis?"

I get a little confused about the psychotic's symbolic order.

I didn't think that the Other's unconditional love requirement invalidated the analogy I was making... in that it's not love exactly here, but rather what's important is that what the vampire demands in the predatory act cannot be denied him, it is given unconditionally.

In this sense, it's characteristic of the psychotic, as the delusion is structured specifically such that this would be the case.

Is this what you're saying, or am I wrong?

"any symbolic order will do for the initial paternal function. A 'warm body father' is not what is referred to, nor is the maternal referred to in this sense. Guilt is the classic vehicle for the superego, which in a Lacanian sense can be likened to les nom du pere, IMO."

If you're associating guilt here with paternal function, then I get what you're saying!

"do the vampires in this series see themselves in mirrors?"

Ahaha. I never even thought about that. They don't!

"When you say 'sired', was Angel ever human?"

Yeah, he was. Not in the story mind you, but in theory yeah. I tended to look at it as his becoming a vampire was his birth, and felt I wasn't being too silly, as it's where the story starts.

It seems as if I'm at least making some kind of sense though. Thanks. ;)

[ZIM]

The connor thing is interesting. Also, I didn't pay enough attention- you were saying that the guilt thing was the cure. Sorry! [or that is...'I concur' *koff hrumpf hrumpf*] :p

"The one that is sought in love is really one's own unity, **forever lost as a result of primal repression**, Whatever the lover seeks in his beloved is nothing else that his own integrity towards another part of himself" -Lacan [my emphasis]

Ok, g'nite for now. :)

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, buffy DOES do much of her own fight scenes, look close, it's her. I know a stunt doubble does the really hard stuff, but it's defenately her throwing much of the technique. Wonder if any of Jackie's people are involved with the show. That would explain the improvement in her skill level, especially the last two seasons.

And yes, Willow is the hotter of the two. She could have picked a better looking Lesbian lover though.

I thought the whole hokey, evil "Super villian" thing was pretty funny. I wish they hadn't killed those goofs off.

Also, I have to aggree about the Anya thing, except I think it's spelled Oynya. I did her too by the way. :eek: :D

[ZIM]

This thread is becoming really quite mysoginistic!

This just struck me as funny becuz we're talking about vampires...the whole 'vagina dentata' thing, dontcha know....:eek:


Zizek: "It is therefore clear why vampires are invisible in the mirror: because they have read Lacan and, consequently, know how to behave - they materialize objet a which, by definition, cannot be mirrored"


Interesting, no?
I've been looking at the idea of undeath in relation to this...remember, I don't watch this show, so I can't speak towards how *they* speak, what themes they bring up.
BUT- the rebirth into undeath, this sense of self is denied thru the lack of a mirror-stage. are they dead or alive? its an indefinite, suspended judgement... something usually visited unto us by the symbolic Father..
This is peculiar, in that the victims cannot be truly Other. only Other vampires can be this Other, in truth...victims are just standing reserve [to bring in Heidegger to assist a little]. In a sense, they are the only ones who can tell them who they themselves are.

C'est tres <<Gothique>>, non? "How do I look? How do I look?" hahaha.... This acquiring of a soul is the feminization of Angelus, loss of the phallus. Connor, in finding out the true I D of Angel would then lose his Phallus should he do what he sets out to do, killing the father. [Which is odd. You said Connor is the son? Natural born? Is cordelia the mother? its all too freudian/oedipal.. hes gonna wind up tearing his own eyes out]

Violence is usually associated with the Law of the Father... without fathers, then they enact his Law? This does occur, but its not necessarily psychotic. In a sense, a bast4rd that does NOT enact the Law of the Father could be said to be the worse psychotic...hmmm....a denial of the symbolic order/Real

What's the chart for the Real??? What is the Real for a Vampire??
a
/\
$ A

Other, object a, Signified.....I begin to wonder whether the Phallus associated with hunting [with a *vagina dentata*!! surely no coincidence] is the real aim of these creatures. Thirst is for Identity and Self...HMMMM! Look again at the Zizek quote....

This is a fun excercise

[ZIM]

is bound to know more than I (http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/english/faculty/copjec/) and is presumably close to you? Her book, Lacan against the historicists, contains a chapter on Vampires.

[Former castleva]

In my opinion,Buffy is sad.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Former castleva
In my opinion,Buffy is sad.

In my opinion, you are sad.

And will you shorten that god**** sig!

;)