Sport Fighting Terminology

[ShaolinTiger00]

In an effort to reach out a helping hand to my young brothers and sisters of the Chinese arts, I've been answering some questions. I've created a post so that we could keep them in a collective group so that they found and that someone may ask a question that you would like to know.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"Anyone know what he's talking about "cut-kicking skills?."

A cut kick is a kick to the support leg, while an attacker is making a kick.

ex. you roundhouse me to the thigh. As I see this motion, I kick you on the inside thigh of your support leg with a round kick.

Result, Your kick will have less power, you may fall, and kicks to the inside hurt..

[ShaolinTiger00]

What is an "educated jab"?

an "educated" jab is the practice of fighting behind the jab. Basically you'll be pumping your jab all fight long, to measure the distance, immediately thrown at the first signs of motion, and to set up your combinations.

It is a very safe and effective style for ring fighting, where you can keep at longer range without the fear of a takedown or throw.

from ringside.com (great site)

The jab is equivalent to a basketball player's jump shot or a baseball player's swing. It is the most fundamental offensive (and defensive) punch in boxing. It serves innumerable purposes as a strategic weapon. It sets up more powerful shots, keeps your opponent off balance, can be used to dictate the pace of the fight, and buys time for you.


Throughout boxing history there have been numerous boxers who have demonstrated the effectiveness of a good jab. Larry Holmes, Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali are a few of the names that immediately come to mind. They have literally won fights and dictated the outcome with the use of an effective jab. There have, however, been a few boxers who have been successful in the sport without the extensive use of the jab. Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier rarely used the jab, but their physical build and boxing styles didn't rely as much on the jab as it did power. They were still able to compete at the top of their game, but were often defeated by those boxers who used the jab as a weapon. Ali used the jab to keep Frazier out of punching range and Buster Douglas never allowed Mike Tyson on the inside where he could capitalize on his power. The formula is simple: a tall boxer who is competing against a shorter opponent would most likely try to "stick" the jab as much as possible, not giving the opponent the opportunity to hit him. Conversely, the smaller boxer wouldn't want to throw many jabs because of the reach differentiation. Rather, he would want to slip and counter while attempting to get on the inside. Getting past a strong jab is difficult for any boxer, regardless of his size.

The bottom line is you should use the jab often. Master it and its different uses. Whether you use it in competition or not, it should begin each training session as it does each combination.

[ShaolinTiger00]

So you duck, your left arm comes up between your head and the incoming right hook. What do you call this?

Simply called a block. pretty standard stuff.

when you "move" a jab or cross by pushing it to the side its called a parry.

block - hooks and uppercuts

parry -a cross

and parry or catch -a jab.

duck and slipping punches = bob and weave

Slip inside/ slip outside a jab or cross - "stabbing punches"

duck under a hook. (hook and uppercuts are slashing punches) a

"rock" backwards on an uppercut.

So you see there is defense thru movement and defense thru stopping or deflecting a punch.

movement will take up less of your energy, but stopping is a must when you don't have anywhere to go. (he cut off your angle to move out.)

when using blocks and parry. Use same side arm! If you use opposite arm you open yourself up big.

good ex = he is in conventiaonl left stance and fires l jab, r cross, l hook, r uppercut

You are also in left leg lead stance. - parry or catch jab with right, parry the cross with left (towards your right), bring up arm right arm to block l hook, and bring down left forearm to stop r uppercut.

BTW : This is a great drill and is good for removing the "flinch" reflex as you get used to punches sailing at your melon..
have him mix up his combinations and you mix up blocks likewise. also mix in movement defense as well. parry the jab, slip the cross, duck the hook, rock back to avoid the uppercut.



Grappling terminology is also fair game!

[Suntzu]

underhook/overhook?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Overhook - When you "tie"- restrain someone's arm by hooking your arm over arm. Your bicep/forearm should be pinching their tricep.

Underhook - Exact opposite. Your arm pinches their tricep with a "curling" motion - *make a bicep felxing motion*

Used by people in grappling situations, they are great in restraining or controlling an opponent. Double overhooks/underhooks, 1 overhook and 1 underhook ar very common.

related terms -

"w h izzzer" & arm drag

****zer is a overhook to a leading arm counter when an opponent treies to shoot in on you for a double or single leg takedown.

Armdrag - using both hands (called a 2 on 1) you drag opponents arm across their body and then move towards their exposed side.

great site for wrestling (http://www.themat.com)

[ShaolinTiger00]

come on you steely-eyed chi monkeys..

[Xebsball]

beotch, do you have questions on xing yi terminology?

[ShaolinTiger00]

No.

Xing yi is feminine. :)

[Xebsball]

mkay, stay safe with Stavit then.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Did I hit a soft spot? (maybe it was your G spot..)

lmao @ stavit, it looks amazingly similar to the uselss conglomerate of garbage known as "internal" arts.

[Xebsball]

right on, be by the fountain on the park at Frederick Maryland at 3:02pm next Friday, fridays are good, i like fridays, i would prefer on fridays.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Funny thing about that.

I actually went.

Where were you? (or anyone else for that matter.) Oh yeah, smack talking on the internet..

If you don't have a terminology question, then go dissipate your jing somewhere else.

This thread should be free of x vs. x

[Xebsball]

nah, get your facts straight, i was playing Street Fighter 2 as Sagat. Sagat is a muay thai fighter, he is the best charactor, he throws roundhouse kicks.

[dezhen2001]

would be a bit hard for him to go considering he lives in Brasil mate! :D

Does anyone take these internet challenges seriously anyway? why would i want to ravel all the way to the USA to fight someone i had never met before in my life? :confused:

dawood

[dezhen2001]

Sagat is the BEST in SF2 :D tiger uppercut :D

dawood

[ShaolinTiger00]

Then don't talk trash if you can't see it thru. I'm a "put up or shut up" guy and at least Ralek had the balls to honor the meeting.

[Xebsball]

sorry, i misspelled muy thai on my previous post

[Xebsball]

awwww (blushes) does that mean you wanna meet me too, like you met Ralek? ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not against the idea. ;)

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
when using blocks and parry. Use same side arm! If you use opposite arm you open yourself up big.[/B]

I hope you aren't making that an absolute statement. If so, I'll have to disagree as there are definately applications where you would block or parry with the opposite side arm. Take your example:
he is in conventiaonl left stance and fires l jab, r cross, l hook, r uppercut

Instead of standing in front of him and defending against his strikes, when he throws the left move in and to the side by steping your right foot to 1:00. Knee checks should be automatic at this range. This gets you in close with all your weapons available while momentarily nullifying most of his. As you step in you could either: 1) parry or block with your right and simultaneously deliver a left inward elbow to his solar plexus or lower ribs, or 2) left outward block or parry to his left and strike your preffered target with your right- his whole left side and back is open and you are in a zone of obscurity. So, with that simple step you are in a position where either arm could be deployed to defend that strike.

One point- I prefer to block a jab in toward his body rather than try to parry it. Jabs are deployed fast and withdrawn faster, so you'll probably catch it on the way back. Borrow the momentum of his withdrawal and use the block or a hard parry to drive his arm back to his chest for a momentary pin. In my experience, soft or riding parries don't work against jabs. Moving the target is the best way to deal with a jab. The block/hard parry is more of a check on his only remaining weapon at that instant than a defense against his punch.

[dnc101]

Dang, xebs. In the time it took me to write that yu sure did some great trolling. Did you have a point:confused:

[Kinjit]

Could you describe a posted mount?

[ShaolinTiger00]

:D back to the subject.

DNC: this was obviouly a very simple rule but one that is very sound.

However as I had already stated. movement is the better, less exausting defense. this we agre on.

But when your motive is to get to the clinch, you're going to have to face up to the fact that there is some infighting and you need blocking skills.

1) You are still block/parrying that with the same side hand. You see a punch come in to your right (his left) and you use your right to block it. exactly what I was saying.

2.) good idea. 1 flaw. slip to the outside of the jab and block/parry it to your left with your Right hand. If you use your left to take it further left it leaves your guard open (again as I said in the text)and take his back.

3) I too like to catch a jab vs. parrying it, but either can work well.
soft vs hard parry - use the minimum effort to avoid the punch.

parry a stabbing punch across your body, not opening your arms out. keep your elbows tucked!

[ShaolinTiger00]

Yeah Xebs - "Did you have a point?"


A "posted mount"

People use the post from the mount for two reasons.

1) an unskilled man on the bottom will thrash around wildly and if you give him room will almost always turn face down on his stomach where you can take control of his back.

2) the skilled bottom man will attempt to "bridge" by bringing his feet close to his butt and lifting his body off the ground in order to buck the mount off or transition to a better spot by doing an "upa" where he will now be in the guard but at least able to get into a less threatening spot.

To "post" First your feet have to be hooked around his thighs. most people I know call this grapevine. As you feel the bottom man rise or spaz you post your arms out wide in front of you and allow him room to turn over.

Was that clear? grappling is often better seen than described.

[Kinjit]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Yeah Xebs - "Did you have a point?"


A "posted mount"

People use the posted mount for two reasons.

1) an unskilled man on teh bottom will thrash around wildly and if you give him room will almost always turn face down on his stomach where you can take control of his back.

2) the skilled bottom man will attempt to "bridge" by brining his feet close to his butt and lifting his body off the ground in order to buck the mount off or transition to a better spot by doing an "upa" where he will now be in the guard but at least able to get into a less threatening spot.

To "post" First your feet have to be hooked around his thighs. most people I know call this grapevine. AS you feel the bottom man rise or spaz you post your arms out wide in front of you and allow him room to turn over.

Was that clear? grappling is often better seen than described.


Yes, thank you. I'll be attending my first BJJ class soon.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Best of luck. It may be confusing or frustrating at first, but you'll adapt quickly.

[Golden Arms]

Of course you were there Rale....err..I mean Shaolin Tiger00 ;) Not saying you are not a good fighter, or that you dont have a good amount of knowledge, but most fighters know that there is also not just one best way to do everything. Otherwise Royce Gracie and Bas Rutten would not BOTH be effective in the ring, yet they have greatly varied fighting styles. Oh, and to stay On Topic, when you catch a persons round kick, what throw first comes to mind to use, and what do you call it?

[Merryprankster]

How are you catching it? Overhooking or underhooking?

[dnc101]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
2.) good idea. 1 flaw. slip to the outside of the jab and block/parry it to your left with your Right hand. If you use your left to take it further left it leaves your guard open (again as I said in the text)and take his back.

You are to the outside. I gues it wasn't clear the way I wrote it, but the foot maneuver is the same for both 1 & 2. It was an example where either the right or left could be used with the same step.

[Kinjit]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Best of luck. It may be confusing or frustrating at first, but you'll adapt quickly.

Thanks. I done some rolling, but never had any proper instruction in it - it's incredible frustrating to feel you are in the position to slap on a triangle or armbar but not knowing how! If you know what I mean...

[ShaolinTiger00]

Golden - Absolutely! you won't even find two bjj or pancration guys who fight alike. but the point was that both Bas and Royce keep things very simple. Western boxing isn't very complex, yet has many options.

Assuming you meant roundhouse (rear leg) the throw/takedown that I think is the most effective is an inside reap of the support leg. This allows you to catch the blow, keep your guard up and put him on the ground with POWER! I was showing this tech to MP and Apoweyn.

both in std. lft leg stance.

you fire rear leg roundhouse, I step forward and into the kick dampening the power and bringing my right leg very close to the support leg. I underhook your calf with my right arm taking the reduced blow on my arm, chest and part of right forearm. (important)- right arm must now protect you. You use a twisting motion of your torso to may him rock back on his heels and you reap your right leg thru him and push with right arm.

This sounds so complicated, but happens so fast!

Once you have "caught" the leg there are tons of options. catching it, keeping it, keeping your guard up is the issue.

[Losttrak]

... too many kung fu generalizations.... grrrr

[Golden Arms]

Overhooking, say if it was his right leg, then catching with left arm.

[Merryprankster]

Better ask Shaolin. I'd just do a tree top on the leg I've got. :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

underhook, don't overhook. Overhook is good only after he landed the kick and you are able to snag it.

Think Pre-emptive! don't take unneccessary damage.

[Golden Arms]

Thats the one that I use often as well..but if it was not a ring fight..why not use pressure on the knee instead, or hit smash the kneecap at an angle with you forearm before using that throw? Hmm..your remark about both of them using simple moves...that is the what I am talking about! What I think a lot of the pj crowd doesnt get and what you love to pick apart is that they are thinking that while you are throwing a hook or shooting they are going to do some crazy kick or double palm attack..well, there are lots of simple combinations of foot and handwork that form the basics of most decent kung fu styles that work just as well as your typical san shou strikes, or may even be the same moves...

[Golden Arms]

Oh, I see your point..but I personally dont usually underhook as much as I overhook, mainly because I dont try to grab legs unless they are sloppily thrown at me, or they have already hit me a lot of the time...reaching out for strikes is not what I am about, but if the guy gives me something to throw him around with, sure I will take it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

DNC: picture this sir,

you & I are standing in L front boxer's stance.

You take a right step and move forward & outside as I Left jab.
You now want to parry outside and with your right arm push my jab even further to the left (you moved right, chances are that was probably sufficient enough to avoid) take alook at your now open ribs which are very close to me. Wow Look at that opening!
Even though my near arm is blocked across me, I'm going to turn into you and give you a shot with a powerful right hook. My pivioting on right leg and turning into you brings my right hook in perfectly. Ouch. You can't even use the right effectively because I was able to pivot away

Now you move to the right and use your right to parry across your body as you slide out. Your ribs are no longer open, your closest hand is in good position and tucked. Even if I pivot to line back up, you're still in great position again.


your way can work. my way will work. fighting is about the odds. I play safe so that my opponents counter's are reduced.

[ShaolinTiger00]

reaching out for strikes is not what I am about

EXACTLY! don't reach for a kick catch!!

that's exactly why the underhook is so important. its just a "j" motion kept close to your body.

Its so hard to describe but as you feel the kick an move in you "absorb" the kick.

Overhooking, say if it was his right leg, then catching with left arm. Ouch. your lead arm is now holding his leg. not good ..

[red5angel]

Whats a treetop?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Tree top is when you have caught a leg and you lift it as high as you can as quickly as you can. Your opponent will "topple like a tree"

[red5angel]

aaahhhh, not at all what I was thinking of!

[diego]

Havent had the chance to go through this thread yet, but while scanning it i decided i would like to ask about Covering-Blocks, in boxing etc. First i want to ask, How should a beginner defend a muy thai roundhouse kick to the neck or face...especially one where your just about to realize you are going to be hit, so you dont have much time to jump out of the way...Hence, covering up blocks/defences!?. :)

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
Havent had the chance to go through this thread yet, but while scanning it i decided i would like to ask about Covering-Blocks, in boxing etc. First i want to ask, How should a beginner defend a muy thai roundhouse kick to the neck or face...especially one where your just about to realize you are going to be hit, so you dont have much time to jump out of the way...Hence, covering up blocks/defences!?. :)

Also, what is the correct term for cover-ups?.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"cover up" is an appropriate term for that block.

and in that situation a double arm block would be the best block.
Just watched Michal McDonald use this to fend off Mo Smith's roundhouse in the 2001 K-1 north america.

you just turned your forearms into flesh thai pads..

its better than taking one on the melon. but you can't take many of these and expect to punch.

[diego]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


you just turned your forearms into flesh thai pads..



And obviously you use your forearms so your palms face you and not your opponnent right?...like in a knifefight your best to expose the outside and not the inside of your arms wich houses the major "die-quik-if-cut" arteries.

In my style we have double palm blocks where one hand hits the wrist and the other hits around the elbow or bicep "a destruction can be done as you can backfist or palm the bicep, etc," but i havent had the chance to test-altering this motion of stepping to the side and double-palming, into a flesh muythai pad...but can easily visualize this!:).

What stance is best to back up these makeshift pads?...i just go into a cat for the double palm, so all my wieghts on the backleg and i can jump in quikly for a followup with my emptywieghted-leg!.

In mma comps, what stance "and please by stance know i am talking about transitional movements;)" would the best coaches reccommend for this defense?.
thanx

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
DNC: picture this sir, you & I are standing in L front boxer's stance. You take a right step and move forward & outside as I Left jab.You now want to parry outside and with your right arm push my jab even further to the left (you moved right, chances are that was probably sufficient enough to avoid) take alook at your now open ribs which are very close to me. Wow Look at that opening! Even though my near arm is blocked across me, I'm going to turn into you and give you a shot with a powerful right hook. My pivioting on right leg and turning into you brings my right hook in perfectly. Ouch. You can't even use the right effectively because I was able to pivot away

Now you move to the right and use your right to parry across your body as you slide out. Your ribs are no longer open, your closest hand is in good position and tucked. Even if I pivot to line back up, you're still in great position again.

your way can work. my way will work. fighting is about the odds. I play safe so that my opponents counter's are reduced.

Well, ST, we could get into a 'yeah but' thing here real easy. We'd have to work it face to face to really see, but there are a few things I think you are missing in my application.

First off, I don't fight from a boxers stance. A Neutral Bow is my base stance, though I'm allways moving so that changes constantly.

I'm not trying to push or direct your arm so as to extend it across your body. I want to borrow the momentum of the retrieval of your jab and drive it back to your body more or less on its original path. It would momentarily tie up (check) that weapon, and should disrupt your base by rocking you back on your heels a little.

That block is simultaneous with the step to your left side and I'm in close and set for my strike, so it will be quick. But even if you do manage to move I'd feel it and be moving myself. Fights are dynamic, so this isn't a preset plan, just an example.

If I did parry your left with my right, my strike of choice would probably be an inward elbow strike to your ribs (I really love elbow strikes) and would deliver simultaneously with the parry and step. That would effectively cover my ribs. I used this a couple of days ago in light workout with an ex JKD type and it worked well. (That's one of the reasons I thought of this as an example here).

Also, remember that I pointed out that checking your base is automatic when I get in close. Knee checks to your near leg are effective not only to prevent your using it as a weapon but to disrupt your base and inhibit movement. At advanced levels a leg check can even be used as a weapon to buckle your knee.

I liked your method also, but it would not have illustrated my point.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
and in that situation a double arm block would be the best block. Just watched Michal McDonald use this to fend off Mo Smith's roundhouse in the 2001 K-1 north america.
you just turned your forearms into flesh thai pads...
its better than taking one on the melon. but you can't take many of these and expect to punch.

If you are in a right foot forward stance try steping back to about 4:30 with your left foot as you throw up the double block. A kick has its maximum power at about 80% of its arc, just before its apex. Steping back will take the kick at a point past max power and save you some punishment. Also, the kick was thrown against the weakest direction of your stance. Steping back to 4:30 into a good solid stance gives you a stronger base to work from.

[Cheese Dog]

Shaolin Tiger00, I have heard that San Shou fighters use only 5 or 6 throws. Could you describe them?

Thanks!

[ShaolinTiger00]

Diego -

And obviously you use your forearms so your palms face you and not your opponnent right?

I turn my so that the two palms are facing each other. (if we bent the elbow 90 degrees so that they are parallel to the floor thy would be vertical fists.) I like your knife analogy and honestly just like my method because its closer to my original guard position, since this is a last ditch defense, chances are I won't have time to "think" about what I'm doing. I'm just putting my hands up! Some even cross hands, but I'd discourage that.

Stance- same thing. natural orthodox stance. great for balance, great for mobility and great for returning an attack after you absorb this blow. :)

DNC101 -

good point about movement away from the apex. Movement is by far the best defense! either move past the apex or before (san shou abides by this as it makes the catch/throw easier)

CheeseDog

Depends on what san shou fighter you asked..

;) If I'd list the 5 most common throws or takedowns (I'll assume by "throw" you meant both.) they would probably be..

1) roundhouse kick catch and reap/dump
2) front kick catch and reap/dump (after a kick is caught there is usually more than one option)
3) cross body drag (tai otoshi) or with the head (koshi guruma)
4) double leg takedown
5) outer leg reap (osoto gari)

To this list I could add about 20+ more throws but these are the most common that I've seen. Throwing really depends on personal style. While one sanshou guys may be well versed or seek to throw (Albert Pope) another guy may want to use speed (SunTzu) or his great kicks (Marvin Perry) to control the fight. ie - throwing may not be the highpoint of their "game" but all sanshou guys know these basic throws and a few more.

[Cheese Dog]

Thanks, Shaolin Tiger00!:cool:

If I could ask, which throws/takedowns do you think are best for people that are average height and stocky? I would love to be able to study san shou but there doesn't seem to be anyone teaching it anywhere near me. (I live in northern Kentucky, near Cincinatti, Ohio.)

Greatly appreciate all of the info :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

CD

check out this thread: click here (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=19059)

body type - sounds like me :)

If you are interested in throwing and don't have a sanshou school, get to a judo dojo. If you want to learn throws you should also learn groundwork too (what happens after the throw off the ring) keep practicing striking and practice no-gi judo. you'll quickly see what works and what doesn't.

[norther practitioner]

So, what about the scissor kick? Anyone ever use this (other than Cung Le)?

[diego]

ST00 i have another question on the coverup but have to sign out quik.

Next question, just as you can cut kick an opps supportleg while he kicks "wich i would like to know the various ones good to use in a ring," How many slip and cut punches are there...just looking at blackjacks post about the barehand boxing manual and they show a few, were he punches to your head say with a vertfist and you duck and slip a gutshot to him with a hook...How many is thier for one to use in the ring...Especially curious about this as in HOPGAR Style KF blocking punches with punches is a major tactic of this longarmed style wich i am beginner in, so understanding "sport usages" will give me a better understanding of my basic punches applications!. :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

So, what about the scissor kick? Anyone ever use this (other than Cung Le)?

Yep. both the normal scissors and the reverse (the one that Cung does).

SunTzu's coach Julio used to do a nice scissors takedown. I don't know if he still does. Its not a takedown you're going to use alot, but its a nice one to have in the arsenal.

Since judo has given us such nice names and categories for throws, its judo name is Kami Basami.

Diego-
As to how many slips there are. 3- either a right or left slip or backwards (sometimes just stepping back, othertimes twisting away). against jabs and crosses and an uppercut.
Duck to avoid hooks. combine these motions and you see how they get the term "bob n' weave"

the term "cut punches" isn't one that I've ever heard. (why do kicks have the term but not punching. i don't know.) Punching in that manner is usually called a counter.

Noticing the book and you see much more defensive punch catches and blocks (like kungfu) than you do in modern boxing. Those have been eliminated because superior offense always championed over that strategy. boxer's call it "the lost art of defense" and the defense thru superior offense school of thought has proven to be the better method for success.
This is why many combat sports feel that they have another advantage over traditional arts striking skills. They are keeping their defensive tactics very spartan and spending more time building better offensive skills.

[Suntzu]

yeah… he still does it… it rubbed off on me for a hot second… now its rubbed all the way off…whats the snake does whatever that was talked about in the other thread… the on that’s not like the firemans carry…

[ShaolinTiger00]

"snake creeps down" is a kungfu posture usued in Wushu and N Shaolin and taiji and prob a million other styles.


here it is (http://www.patiencetaichi.com/snake_creeps_down.htm)

After looking at that application I'm going to retract my statment. Although that stance isn't as low as most I've seen, it does transition very well to the fireman's carry.

[Suntzu]

funny enuff… I have been working on that lately…its hard enuff breaking the balance when u can pull the arm… but with gloves:(...

[ShaolinTiger00]

Suntzu - I've commented on it on the other thread. from that stance it's impractical and ......... *be nice..* well you get it.

for a sanshou guy - it like the double leg and many other "shoots" - you're not going to pull it off on a guy unless he's stunned or off balance. He' going to sprawl out when he feels you shoot. that said. It can work after you've set him up. Guys with grappling, wrestling, sambo backgrounds understand how to get an opponent set up for leg tackles.


CHECK THIS OUT! (http://leicestershooters.tripod.com/training/legtacklesdetails.html) and also check the archives.

[Suntzu]

thanks for the link...

Cheese Dog - I got WAAAYYY more than 5 or 6 throws… I got like…… 7 or 8 of 'em:D...

I also second the Judo recommendation… I sometimes train at a local Judo club… as a refresher… once u figure out the transition from Gi grabbing to gloves… its all good… but those guys are beasts… and I feel like a true beginner… plus a learned a lil' bit of ground work... even tho Julio tapped me out Saturday... rear naked choke:mad:

[Merryprankster]

Don't think about grabbing the wrist. That doesn't actually work on most folks. Hit it off a tight overhook and pull HARD up as you step deep into him and then get your head under then pull tight down into your body with the crook of your elbow as you step deep into him. At worst, you miss and can transition to a single leg pick up or a rear body lock to a "lift and drop."

[Suntzu]

maybe on our next get together y'all can fix my fireman's carry… I'm just infatuated by 'hi altitude' throws…

[Merryprankster]

You can't hit your knees for this, right?

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
...you see much more defensive punch catches and blocks (like kungfu) than you do in modern boxing. Those have been eliminated because superior offense always championed over that strategy. boxer's call it "the lost art of defense" and the defense thru superior offense school of thought has proven to be the better method for success.
This is why many combat sports feel that they have another advantage over traditional arts striking skills. They are keeping their defensive tactics very spartan and spending more time building better offensive skills.

I think most martial arts schools start out teaching defensive moves such as blocks and counters so the beggining student has a good grounding in basics from which to develope advanced skills later. I know that several styles, mine (American Kenpo) included, develope those basics into combined offense and defense. "Every block is a strike, every strike is a block." Examples:

In my previous example on this thread, whether I blocked or parried I did more than stop his strike or redirect it. I moved him to a position of disadvantage as well as disrupted his ballance.

Let's take the example a little further. A block travels across your body to intercept and stop his attack. Instead of just throwing an inward or outward block try deploying it on a greater angle so that it goes toward him more. Extend it a little so that it becomes a vertical backfist or a hammerfist aimed at his eye. You'll have to turn your body and move in, otherwise you'll get hit since you aren't deflecting the strike as much. This also will give your block/strike more range, and it gets you in close. Your strike won't have as much power, and it may not even land. But I guarantee it will get a reaction that you can use to set your next strike (this one a power strike) which should allready be en route.

Another example would be strikes like knuckle rakes and claws that cross up inside so they are clearing as they strike.

Traps, pulls, cranes, and pressing checks are other examples. They are defensive in that they recieve his incomeing or withdrawing energy. They are offensive in that they use that energy against him and set him up for your attack which is now in progress. These, by the way, are moves that some sport fighters don't develope because their heavy padded gloves wouldn't allow them.

I'll agree with the sport fighters that "Hit him firstest with the mostest" is a good strategy. But sometimes he throws first and I figure we'd better know what to do about it.

[Suntzu]

MP - "Three Points are Awarded if:

The opponent is forced to fall by the competitor’s techniques, including the competitors deliberately falling while dodging defensively."
I guess it depends on the judge…

[Merryprankster]

Eh, I guess we can do the version where you don't go to your knees. It's harder.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Traps, pulls, cranes, and pressing checks are other examples.

of wasted movement.

Keep striking simple and you cannot go wrong.

SunTzu - I've got a setup for you.

[Suntzu]

thanks ST...

I've bee tryin it without touching… basically it becomes a bearhug to a dump… nothing pretty… it works… ive also experimented with a over/underhook of the lead leg to a, I guess, high-crotch… its OK… but mostly that ends up as either a support leg sweep, a tree topper as u put it or a sideways dump... the Sun Da guys over in China must be superhuman or something...

[ShaolinTiger00]

basically it becomes a bearhug to a dump

That's called a body-lock. and its a different throw :D

superhuman? nah. throws always look more complicated than they really are.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Traps, pulls, cranes, and pressing checks are other examples.

of wasted movement.

ST, you should have paid more attention to your forms, then you'd know better! :D

[diego]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[I]

[b]Diego-
.

boxer's call it "the lost art of defense" and the defense thru superior offense school of thought has proven to be the better method for success.


how does this work in the ring...you attack first and keep attacking?.

i dont think this is always the case for certian individuals like say ali for instance where if i remember correct... i think a few of his opponents lunged in, to hit ali. mohammed would slip to the side, slightly, then burst in with a freaking jab :) and knock the opponnent out...using taichis principals of using an agressors force agianst him...like a train smashing into one of wil-e coyotes painted mountians...or crushing a pop can by slamming and squishing it into the ground...or striking a face with poor alignment nor strong knuckles and you break your fist because your punch was stronger then you have been conditioned to take...sorry for the extended anologies...can you give me more info on the principals/rules/laws of :defense thru superior offense school of thought

Know of any weblinks with articles talking about the history of these boxers thoughts on the issue?.
peace

[Suntzu]

Crane?

[Mutant]

Great discussion guys, this is the kind of info that we can really use! :)

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Suntzu
Crane?

For instructional purposes, hold your hand up in front of your face. Now turn your palm away from you, relax your wrist and let your hand fall forward. That is a basic crane position. It can be used to hook and pull or check, depending what you sense in your opponent and what you want to do. The pull is a frictional pull, not a grab. Another use is to drive a strike on through and hook: as in a heel palm strike to the side of the mandible that glances past and hooks the back of his neck. You could then pull him toward you or move him sideways. It can also be used to carry an opponents kick ****her out than a parry might, delaying his replant also. Once you learn it, it is pretty natural and very effective. But you have to fight loose to use it.

Edit: I forgot about the **** filter. That's "f@rther"out.

[ShaolinTiger00]

how does this work in the ring...you attack first and keep attacking?.

Diego - sometimes yes, sometimes no. You mentioned Ali, and Ali was the epitome of a "pitty-pat" boxer. stick and move. Ali would use his long, quick jab to attack and then he'd rock backwards and pedal his feet to keep an opponent always swinging but never hitting. Ali would use this jab as a disrupter too. He sensed movement and would fire it. In fact the only time that comes ot mind when Ali used much blocking was the "rope a dope" tactic where he absorbed Foreman's punches.

Ali used a "soft" defense with lots of movement and passivity to fatigue opponents and control the ring.

Other's users use a more aggressive approach, come in fast and strong and keep combinations flowing to keep an opponent defending and confused. Looking for an opening to exploit. When they find themsleves defending, its usually movement that gets them out of trouble and they start over again.

This style is more suited towards "a street fight" because chances are the opponent is not skilled and your combinations will rock him! secondly. you need to end it quickly. You do not have the luxury of a ring to keep at range and chances are he will grapple with you in close out of desperation. knees, elbows, throws, and groundfighting are important to learn.


MW is correct. Great Discussion.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Since we've talked alot about boxing. I was thinking about differnt boxerx, their styles and how different styles have been sucessful.

Is there a particular fighter or style that you like? and do you know why?

ex. De La Hoya: - expertly used a stiff, hard left jab and like many other Mexican boxers, has a great left hook to the body.

Sugar Ray Robinson: - master of it all. a perfect blend of speed, skill, power, brains.

Tyson - A puncher. amazing raw power that could make one shot KO's. great uppercut and great head movement (slip)

If you like a fighter but don't know what he did/does let's talk about that too.

[Suntzu]

not a boxer… but Mike Bernardo and Ernesto Hoost… my 2 favs… Mike has this KILLER hook combo… I've been tryin to steal it for months… it just starting to come out now… i just need to get the power behind it... and Ernesto… dude is a mathmatician in the ring… I like how he can throw leg kicks a will... makes it look soooo easy... people se mine comming a mile away... but Roy Jones is da man... he just frustrates opponents... he tags u... u swing back and u juuuust miss... p!sses me off just watchin...

I always thot DLH a b!tch until I seen him beat up on Vargas… but if I had a Mayweather training me… I'd have killer hands like that too… that’s prolly one of the best fighter/trainer match-ups ever put together… Mike has/had(?) the best head movement in the game... he could move and bang at the same time... thats easier said than done... well atleast for me...

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ironic thing: I hate watching kickboxing except sanshou. I love boxing, love judo, love sanshou, but hate kickboxing. I do however admire Hoost, Mo Smith, Bernardo, Alex Gong, Leko, Noi & others who are amazing standouts.

lol @ de la hoya being a sissy. I've always been a fan ( I love the infighter/ counterfighters.) but that fight proved that he had heart behind the skills and smile.
I like RJ jr. because I too like to use the upper jab from the "lazy" position. (many people don't realize that he doesn't lift it and fire it straight like a normal jab. it just rises to meet the chin at a 45 degree angle from his waist level.) but he hasn't fought a hard fight in so many years that I'm looking forward to John Ruiz pounding on him to find out what kind of heart he has. Roy has great defensive movement. lots of head & shoulder motion :)

[Suntzu]

K1 would be perfect if it allowed throws… K1 is not your daddy's kickboxing... its almost cruel... but I think that they have 'san shou' rules for the undercards… didn't cung fight in K1??? Yeah the rising jab is sweet… I have adopted the 'lazy' stance… I'm tryin to break away from it… but it has made me… well... lazy... i need to let it go for a while...

Roy's lack of power is killin him at the higher weights… the speed is saving him now… but can he take the pounding???


BRING BACK DRAKA!!!!

[ShaolinTiger00]

Drakka is as dead as a soviet mob squealer.

Cung fought in a K-1 exhibition match. k-1 now has the "s-cup" shootboxing/sanshou and looks promising.

rising jab - It is a lazy habit. don't do it. It's a poor habit I picked up trying to prematurely grab an incoming kick, instead or waiting for it. I've paid dearly for it as I don't have Roy's speed.

rhythm

Fighters must have it. Long rhythm for outside fighting - Classic Ali. Short rhythm with motion in angles, infighting and head & shoulder movement. Counter rhythm seeing, processing and reacting. disrupting opponents with bursts of defense immediately followed by an offensive attack.

Rhythm and timing are so important. proper balance, movement, combinations etc.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Diego - just went back and looked at something and I wanted to clarify.

you asked me how many slips there are and I stated "3" right, left and back.

To be more correct, I should have said outside, inside and back. because you may fight a left handed partner and still want to slip outside and it would be a left slip vs a right slip.

more often then not you want to slip to the outside. If you slip to the inside you should follow it up with a clinch or an uppercut or a knee... throw offensive attacks right away as you just sliped toward his power side (rear hand) typically.

[fa_jing]

I really admired Ricardo Juarez when I saw him fight last Saturday night on Showtime. Real straight ahead, technical, powerful and used short punches, not a lot of swinging. That's the kind of style I'd like to emulate, of course my build is very different.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yeah. a technical fighter is a thing of beauty.

[Suntzu]

I went to one of the best wrestling HS in MD… I should know this stuff… but I don’t… Freeze? I THINK I know but might as well get a definitive answer..

[ShaolinTiger00]

freeze - another word for control. "tie up" etc.

[diego]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
how does this work in the ring...you attack first and keep attacking?.

Diego - sometimes yes, sometimes no. You mentioned Ali, and Ali was the epitome of a "pitty-pat" boxer. stick and move. Ali would use his long, quick jab to attack and then he'd rock backwards and pedal his feet to keep an opponent always swinging but never hitting. Ali would use this jab as a disrupter too. He sensed movement and would fire it. In fact the only time that comes ot mind when Ali used much blocking was the "rope a dope" tactic where he absorbed Foreman's punches.

Ali used a "soft" defense with lots of movement and passivity to fatigue opponents and control the ring.

Other's users use a more aggressive approach, come in fast and strong and keep combinations flowing to keep an opponent defending and confused. Looking for an opening to exploit. When they find themsleves defending, its usually movement that gets them out of trouble and they start over again.

This style is more suited towards "a street fight" because chances are the opponent is not skilled and your combinations will rock him! secondly. you need to end it quickly. You do not have the luxury of a ring to keep at range and chances are he will grapple with you in close out of desperation. knees, elbows, throws, and groundfighting are important to learn.


MW is correct. Great Discussion.

yah st im only interested in the boxing prince's//i understand fightings principals...i think you misread my original question wich i didnt clear up as i wasnt sure if i was misreading you...i meant use punches as blocks like punch the punch...not what they were showing in that book.........the ultimate strikes in hopgar is where you slip his attack and hit him before he can readjust from his missed attack or at the point when he missed.

We on the same page!?!. then hopgar has punches that block his punch with your elbow as your same-arms fist hits his head etc...boxing have any of these?.

[ShaolinTiger00]

gotcha.

boxing certainly has slips and simul. counter. ex. - you slip to the outside and fire a left hook to his body.

but not the later, with punches that purposely block a punch while you strike, although your offensive strikes make it hard for an opponent to get a shot in.

[ShaolinTiger00]

*uses cleric powers to raise the dead*

let's get another discussion going.