Does the jab exist in combat?

[Kinjit]

Your thoughts please...

[dnc101]

YES!

[Souljah]

are you talking about street fighting?

yes I think it does

[Kinjit]

Combat, any life and death fight/struggle. Not a duel, though I suppose a duel could be combat but I'd say it's rare these days. As for the Jab, I mean the concept, not a lead hand punch...

[ShaolinTiger00]

ROFLMGDAO

you guys slay me!

[Kinjit]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
ROFLMGDAO

you guys slay me!

What do you mean?

[MonkeySlap Too]

The Jab is one of the reason the PRC 'department of enemy studies' developed military san shou.

Western Boxing has good lessons in it, and has left it's mark on most other martial arts it has met. Look at san Da, fighting karate styles, MMA, you can't deny the impact the 'sweet science' has had.

Even if your art does not use a 'jab' per se, if it is an offensive art, it will have methods that use similar tactics.

If not - it hasn't been used outside of it's hometown.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
ROFLMGDAO you guys slay me!

With just our jabs? ROF:D

[Cody]

Yes.

Cody

oh heck, I'm giggling my head off too.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yes slain by thousands or jabs, thrown by angry kungfu men, wearing giant oversized 50 oz. gloves.

"next, *puff* steps forward. next, *puff* steps forward.."

[Kinjit]

:confused:

[ShaolinTiger00]

exactly kinjit!:confused: :confused:

[Kinjit]

Anyway, do you think it's an unreasonable thing to discuss?

[ShaolinTiger00]

unimaginable is the word that comes to my mind.

As in how could you not know how important the jab is in REAL Fighting?

answer: because you live on the planet "kungfu" where reality isn't discussed much.

The jab is equivalent to a basketball player's jump shot or a baseball player's swing. It is the most fundamental offensive (and defensive) punch in boxing. It serves innumerable purposes as a strategic weapon. It sets up more powerful shots, keeps your opponent off balance, can be used to dictate the pace of the fight, and buys time for you.

[Kinjit]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
unimaginable is the word that comes to my mind.

As in how could you not know how important the jab is in REAL Fighting?

answer: because you live on the planet "kungfu" where reality isn't dicussed much.


No need for the hostile tone... Anyway... Surprising an intruder in your house, being mugged in a dark street, having a ninja flip out on ya.. (ok:)) Would you not agree that these situations call for different tactics than the ring? I'm definately not saying that boxing, muaythai, MMA what have you are useless for the streets- I just think the mecanics are different.

[OdderMensch]

a jab as a sign of a "probeing offense" i which case I'd say no, that is a good thing to avoid in quote-unquote "real fighting"

if you mean jab in the sense of the movement a quick strike with the forward hand, I'd say yes, its vital to fighting.

[ShaolinTiger00]

define "probing offense".

You are incorrect.

[ShaolinTiger00]

shaolin master- your definition is a "probing attack" it is not an offense. and it certainly has use in any real conflict. "measuring" an opponent doesn't nessecarily mean not striking him. The jab stuns for a more powerful strike.

[ShaolinTiger00]

wrong.

a "measuring" example.

finger jab to the eyes. - now that the distance is known and the opponent is stunned. a more powerful strike can be used.

[red5angel]

I think you could use a jab to maybe stun your opponent for a brief second to give you time for something larger? It might also be useful in stopping momentum?

[ShaolinTiger00]

redangel, - yep.

run, save yourself from this futile argument while you can.

[red5angel]

LOL@ ST00 - it's informative to watch anyway, you seem to know your stuff so I might just stick around a little bit. Thanks for the sport fighting terms thread by the way! IT might help clear up some of the clutter, in my head and on this forum!

Shaolin master, I am not so sure about the whole bleeding to death thing, getting hit between the eyes. People get hit there all the time without bleeding to death, although seeing stars I can see, but a good shot to the head anywhere will most likely get them spinning anyway.

[ShaolinTiger00]

In real combat you'd have no eyes left! Also It easier to damage the nerve below the forehead just above the nose fairly quickly at which time you'd bleed and die(or see very many pretty stars)! and like a million other things so why waste time.

WTF are you talking about? You're not even on the right page..


Fact is REAL would mean your death as your so cencerned with prep and measuring that you have just been torn apart.....

False. I'm the skilled aggressor.


I refuse to argue about fighting with the ignorant. the end.

[Merryprankster]

Jabs interrupt forward progress and disrupt an opponents intentions.

Lovely. What's not to like?

[Kinjit]

Hmm... ShaolinTiger00, I dont think we disagree really..

[Golden Arms]

No need to come down on someone that is trying to learn. I am sure there are some people out there that may have even seen the great Shaolin Tiger00 punching the heavy bag for the first time with his elbows sticking out to the side and shoulders all tight.. Everyone has to learn somehow. Even Ali. Its better than someone asking if Jump Kicks exist in combat ;)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Jabs interrupt forward progress and disrupt an opponents intentions.

Lovely. What's not to like?

The fact that they interrupt forward progress. When I fight, I want to be real close, bodt to body. If the other guy wants to go ahead and do that for me, why would I want to stop him.

Like anything else, this is a real subjective topic that depends on a whole range of circumstances. For example, in a ring fight, the opponent will naturally be more cautios. I need the jab to open him up and enter. On the street, he will probably come at me full bore with everything he has. To me, that is an opportunity. If my fighting style wasa different, maybe it wouldn't be.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The fact that they interrupt forward progress. When I fight, I want to be real close, bodt to body. If the other guy wants to go ahead and do that for me, why would I want to stop him.

WD ******, you should know better!

You want to close the gap on your terms, not when he dictates it! If you jab/cross or jab uppercut him then your clinch is well under way and the struggle from him is already reduced.

You control the fight, no matter the range.

[Water Dragon]

Shaolin Tiger, I think you should know better. If wants to charge me full force, arm ****ed back, all I have to do is let him come in, turn with him, and he's thrown. If he's doing what I want him to do anyway, I'm still in control. He just doesn't realize it yet.

In the ring, or against a cautious fighter the whole scenario changes and I WILL rely on my jab to open him up.

If you're a striker, and some guy wants to just unload everything he has, do you stop him or just cover up and let him wear himself out? If he wants to do you a favor, let him.

[ShaolinTiger00]

all I have to do is let him come in, turn with him, and he's thrown.

- We're ready for your cameo Mr. Segal :rolleyes::D

[Black Jack]

I would not discount the jab, it provides excellent cover with the lead shoulder and it can be very solid in its own right if you got some good body work behind it, enough to put a man down if done from a skilled fighter.

Muhammad Ali had a sweet jab.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
all I have to do is let him come in, turn with him, and he's thrown.

- We're ready for your cameo Mr. Segal :rolleyes::D

Think more of head lock hip throw (neck surrounding) than wrist lock :rolleyes: :D

[morbicid]

The jab really DOES NOT exist. There's no such thing. It's like a female with good looks who cooks and cleans. em.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Shaolin Tiger, I think you should know better. If wants to charge me full force, arm ****ed back, ...

The edit software definetly needs an overhaul!!! Maybe he shouldda said an arm "caulked" back :confused:

Anyways now I've studied a little kung fu I don't think I would use a jab, it goes against a few WC principles as I understand them. However, back in the day I could set up real nice with jabs. Those were the days:cool:

later
-David

[Water Dragon]

Don't get me wrong David, I LOVE the jab. It's probably my best technique. But one needs to understand when to use a tech and when not to as well as the why's for both situations.

[Kinjit]

There's alot of eye-jabbing while entering in Kuntao aswell.

[Crimson Phoenix]

The jab exists, yes, and it's reall useful either as a warning/psychological strike ("don't get to close", like cats do), or as a set-up for the blow(s) that will make the opponent go down, like many pointed out.

But...yes, there's a but. Think about that a little: you are really ****ed off for whatever reason. Your adrenaline pumps. You clench your fists. You want to take the guy in front of you down hard and fast. Will you be using a jab...probably no (unless, that's quite possible, you're a boxer for who "jab then hard cross" became bread and butter to the point it's a second nature).
Nevertheless, the jab, we all feel it, is NOT a decisive technique, in the sense that you would never use a jab to KO someone.
When you are heated and all you have on your mind is "the sucker's going down", you probably won't use a jab. To be able to use a jab means that you kept your cool, your mind is clear and you have a plan. It doesn't happen that often in a heated streetfight, really.Or at least I should say maybe I'm not good enough to feel like that in a fight, before all you supermen start flaming away at my comment...
It's the same thing for the guy in front. Imagine HE's really ****ed off this time...he wants to take you down...you didn't do much things to get into a fight, yet you know it's coming down on you, and pressure is building. Chances are the guy in front won't use a jab to start you on. And unless you are totally confident/superior to your opponent, you will have a hard time resisting the urge to reply to a big hard haymaker by anything other than a big smashing blow as well, whatever it is...but in all probability it will hardly be a jab.

What I want to say is that 1) of course the jab exists and is pretty useful, but 2) in a heated streetfight, it will probably not show up that much, unless either opponent for some reason managed to keep his/her cool facing the adversity. But by definition, in a heated streetfight it's very hard to keep your cool...

I also seen another problem: I seen some tough guys (they proved tough afterwards, not at first sight) going in, TAKING the jab, but making the other one go down in the end, either by bringing him down, or by shooting himself a much harder blow. It's like a chess player trading its horse for the opponent's queen. Of course he lost a good piece, yet his loss is far greater than this opponent's and in the end it counts. Some guys out there are very very resilient to taking light punches (in which I classify the jab). The problem is that with these guys, the disabling/disorienting effect that makes the jab so useful sometimes is almost nonexistent there.

I would tend to say that the more violent the fight is, the less the jab is seen...but that's just my personal experience...and also, based on my personal experience, even if the jab can be a very very useful tool, there are just times when I'd rather not play the jab game too much, because I feel it is risky...

[Kinjit]

Crimson Phoenix, thanks, thats pretty much what I was thinking.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
You want to close the gap on your terms, not when he dictates it!

It is more fun, and more effective sometimes, to use his terms against him. Borrow his momentum to disrupt his ballance and get him out of position. Borrow his force to enhance your strikes. I really love opponents that charge like a bull straight up my center. But I see your point- there are some folks I try not to let close on those terms. For example, those **** Ving Tsun guys. I guess what I'm saying is keep your options open, don't limit yourself. But for sure know why you are using a particular option.

[fa_jing]

Hmm. I subscribe to the theory that a punch is a punch...I use my lead at times in the same way as a jab - - Only that I punch with a vertical fist. And even in this description, one could easily break it down to different energys, such as crisp, snappy,heavy or stiff. If I could think of another, I'd call it the 5 elements :D (j/k)

Or, what MonkeySlapToo said.

[fa_jing]

Oh, almost forgot the 8 internal "harmonies" of the jab

Provoking
Advancing
Measuring
Probing
Blinding
Confusing
Bothering
Interrupting

These correspond to the Ba Gua.
Yes, I just made that up.


:cool: :D

[yenhoi]

Some jabs are delivered witha vertical fist fa_jing.

I agree with WD on the 'use' of the jab "on the street," but I would probably end up using it because I train it so much.

No, the jab does not exist, thats silly talk. You hit people with your arms and legs etc, jesus.

:eek:

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
define "probing offense".

You are incorrect.
sorry I did not follow up with lightning speed here tiger. I worked all night and had to spar all day, and I just found out about the Space Shuttle, so sorry if I am now a bit incoherent.

by "probeing offense" I am reffering to useing uncommited attacks to feel out an opponents range, timeing and possibly reaction patterns. In a fight with a known limit to time of contact (ie rounds) and a single opponent, feeling them out is a good idea.

However in a as I said "quote/unquote" street fight this is not always a good idea, and can be a very bad idea. Now of course it's best to be a skilled aggressor, but every time you jab I also learn your reach, your timeing and maybe some idea of your reaction patterns. A skilled defender can exploit this, in much the same way a skilled aggressor can exploit timidity or hesitation on the part of the defender.

If i am going to throw a limb at someone I want it to hit something! now I don't alway get my wish, but I'd guess I make contact at least 80 percent of the time.

BTW was a post deleted, or are you calling me a shaolin master? I'm not even a student! :D


Originally posted by Watchman

In fact, ST00's description of the "finger-jab to the eye" that is used to disrupt an opponent's timing and balance sounds a lot like Biu Sau to me.

As I WC guy I agree with Watchman, partialy cause I'm afraid he'll sic JWT's weiner dog on me if I don't, but mostly cause he is right.

but I think we would all have a good laugh at the poor kung fu guy that threw Biu sau after Biu sau at a good MMA guy before getting taken down and pounded to dust.

[Mutant]

LOL yes the jab is very real in combat, whether street, ring, where ever.

like others here have said, it serves a lot of strategic purposes.
traditional kung fu has examples of jab-like techniques, although they are generally not trained like western boxing jabs. for example bil jee (sp?) in wing chun is fast direct open hand strike, usually to the eyes, temple or throat, that can be used to initiate contact, start the bridge and distract to set up other strikes, much like a jab.

i was in a altercation where i threw a jab (1st strike) that surprised and disoriented the guy so much that he pretty much folded after that and was wide open for follow ups and a takedown that ended the fight. don't underestimate the jab.

[Mr Punch]

Watchman... agree but query on 'working the jab'...:

Do boxers really work the jab continuously?! Of course they do, but if they have the option they too will follow up with something bigger and better...

so what's the difference strategically (not mechanically obviously!) between the boxer's use and the WCers?

If I can feed my lead my punch through, I do. I try to let it have enough power to cause some damage. But if not, it could be as MP described, or changed into any of Fajing's nicely put 8 principles! Surely, that's WC? If I can punch I punch, nearest weapon to nearest target: if it's interrupted I change into a bridge, or change angles, stick and punch again. So is this not a way of using the jab to control range and contact with the opponent, a la boxing?

And of course the jab can be a finisher, if well timed and powered (though rarely, like Crimson says). But I will likely need to punch again with my lead hand in WC (as it is still likely to be the closest weapon to the target) without retracting it too far, I will do. If I can hit once, I'll try and hit twice... etc.

So Odder, by the same token, why would a jab be uncommitted? I don't mean you need to lean all the way forwards in some over-committed demonstration-video stooge kind of way, but you're still aiming to use your jab as a feeler which can deliver real power if uninterrupted (or should I say, vice versa!). Of course, with a jab, you also aim to hit something!

(And no, before anybody suggests it, I'm not advocating continuous inneffective chain-punching nonsense, of course you are changing angles of delivery and optimising your footwork as you move... a la boxing...?!!!).

Anybody who says a 'jab-type' offensive strategy is not effective in a real altercation has probably never seen a real altercation, much less been in one.

Water D: agree completely on your analysis of when and when not... ST001: yes, we all laugh at the Seagal image but we've all seen some putz run in like a steam-train and get taken down and owned in the ring, without the need for a jab, and I for one, have seen someone in the same scenario in a pub get picked up and dumped on his head on a pool table... scooby-doo attacks do exist!:D

[OdderMensch]

So Odder, by the same token, why would a jab be uncommitted? I don't mean you need to lean all the way forwards in some over-committed demonstration-video stooge kind of way, but you're still aiming to use your jab as a feeler which can deliver real power if uninterrupted (or should I say, vice versa!). Of course, with a jab, you also aim to hit something!

a jab needn't be uncommited, and a good jab IMHO as I said in my first post isn't. I have spared with people whom use what I am refering to as a probeing offense, and it is not to hard to watch those first few jabs, time them, then enter after the third.

Believe me, as a WC person I do not accociated committed with overexteneded.

[Crimson Phoenix]

good point, stumble...