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YoungForest
10-31-2000, 03:37 PM
I ma currently studing northern shaolin and I have 2 years of experience in ITF taekwon-do..and when i transfered to shaolin, i was very disapointed to see that we hardly practiced kicking..

And when we do...its low kicks, never higher then your waiste..is this how the system is or just something stupid the teacher made up cause he's too lazy to kick high

Grays Anatomy
10-31-2000, 03:53 PM
No - this is not something your instructor made up. Though there are higher kicks in many Kung Fu styles - you will find (prticularly in comparison to TKD) that the Northern Shaolin kicks are lower (knee to hip/abdomen). This is also true of many of the Kung FU styles (certainly so for Lung Jop Pai (Northern Dragon) and for Hung Ga)

Many Northern Instructors teach that as you go above your own waist you begin to lose power. This is assuming you are standing - there are kicks with you down on all fours, kicking backwards at an opponent in Fu Jow Pai (Tiger) for example where you are obviously kicking above your own waist but you will find that most of your NS kicks hover around the waist or below.

Hope that helps

Jaguar Wong
10-31-2000, 05:07 PM
I've been doing Northern Shaolin for about 5 years now, and there are plenty of high kicks. They're all up in the forms we practice.

Some people show up with a TKD background, and seem to fit right in with the kicking methods. As far as application, the kicks are mid to low level (solar plexus to knee/ankle with the occasional thust kick to the sternum). If you train your kicks at all levels then you increase your flexibility, and power.

Of course the higher level kicks don't have as much power, but they're still powerful. If you keep practicing your kicks high, then as they get stronger, so will your mid to low level kicks, which are the kicks you would use anyways. Flexibility helps you to relax when kicking lower, and the more you relax, the more body you can put into your kicks.

But, I really don't think your Sifu is "too lazy" to kick high, he's probably just showing the more technical side. Of course, I don't know the guy, so I can't make any judgement. I guess you would have to ask him, or stick around and watch the more advanced students, or the forms.

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

Ben Gash
10-31-2000, 05:40 PM
It all depends on what school you go to. You will get less power from a head kick, but then the target is more fragile. Many people only teach lower kicks until you are ready and have done the necessary groundwork.
I came from an ITF TKD background, and it took me ages to iron out all the flaws in my kicking technique, so that now I have a great deal more power and stability in my kicks at all levels.
The higher kicks must come, as it is very hard to do low butterfly and tornado kicks.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

Grays Anatomy
10-31-2000, 05:50 PM
Definitely true guys. JW - you may be right that the higher kicks are taught later when the foot-work and stances are more solid.

I didn't mean to imply that there weren't ANY high kicks in NS just that the lower ones are stressed more. In Lung Jop Pai I learned inner and outer crescent kicks - essentially a slap to the face using your foot.

We definitely had them its just that my Sifu tended to stress the lower ones.

Black Jack
10-31-2000, 05:52 PM
I think your missing the point.'

High kicks are not practical for a streetfighting situation and can often lead you to a number of nasty asskickings if you try to perform them outside of your safe training hall.

Your instructor might be teaching you the practical side to your art. By teaching & working you on the low-line kicks he is giving you better tools for a real life encounter.

If you are looking for high-kicks just for fun and conditioning than I am sure there will be some in your up-coming sets, but take the time to learn the low-line kicks as "most" of them are very effective & street practical for self defense as for obvious reasons of balance and mobility.

Regards

Kung Lek
10-31-2000, 05:54 PM
Hi-
I do Bak Sil Lum (Tams style, Kuo Yuo Cheong Lineage).

There is an incredible variety of both high and low kicks in North Shaolin of this style.

Double front kicks, inside /outside crescents (used as head shots or to clear arms before using hand strikes), tornado kicks, broom sweeps front and back, heel kicks at all levels, toe kicks at all levels, sole kicks, knife edge kicks... you name it and north Shaolin has the high kick you are looking for in one of its iterations.

I have found that Nam Sil Lum puts way more emphasis on low kicks than North Shaolin does.

peace

Kung Lek

Jaguar Wong
10-31-2000, 07:59 PM
Gray's Anatomy, I know you weren't saying NS has no high kicks. For the most part, I was just agreeing with the low/mid application of most kicks. I was just adding more and pointing out that the style does train high kicks for other reasons not just for the KO /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BlackJack, I don't think we're "missing the point". I'm not gonna walk around in the mean streets looking for that sweet spot high roundhouse kick under the ear. It's not always like Yvel vs Goodridge (Pride 10 man that was something! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). All the kicks I learned can be used as head hunter shots, but they generally are aimed at areas like the hips, knees, stomach (has anyone ever taken a clean thrust kick to the Tan Tien? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif) and solar plexus. There are even kicks aimed at the ankles. Then there are the sweeps... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I personally use my kicks along with the hands (grabbing/pulling a limb while kicking the thigh, or stomach, or punching high and follwing with a low kick/knee) so it's faster to use low line kicks, cause they're already down there. BUT, my low kicks have all gotten faster and stronger, because of the strength and flexibility gained from practicing them high as well. There's more to it than just the surface. Don't get me wrong, I try hard to use or set up my high kicks, because you never know when you may need it.

Kung Lek, You sound like a kick salesman /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. Yes, Northern Shaolin does have it's fair share of high kicks, but the higher applications tend to be the more advanced stuff. The basics tend to be low-mid level with a few high kicks (crescents, toe, or heel thrusting kicks). Like I said, I love putting a knife edge side kick under the arm, or to the throat, but the one I'm relying on is aimed at the stomach, or hips (I use round house kicks, and cross kicks for the knees). I've landed spinning hook kicks in sparring and tournament settings, but those were set up, and again, I wouldn't put my life on the line trying to use it. I know it can be done, so I keep practicing it, hoping to make it second nature, but I'll always use my bread and butter side and round house kicks.

BTW I'm also learning the Kuo Yuo Cheong Lineage (Johnny So, Ken Hui, and my Sifu Steven Baugh /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Oh yeah, I agree that the Southern styles stress the lower kicks more, but I learned a white crane set (Ark Wong's lineage) that has one or two low kicks and the rest are high (crescents, tornadoes, toe kicks, side kicks, hook kicks, etc.) What makes it even harder is the stances are so frickin' low!

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

no 1
10-31-2000, 08:01 PM
take any kick done higher than waist level.
you could hit your target faster using your hands everytime. they are closer to your target than your feet are.

breathe

Kung Lek
10-31-2000, 08:04 PM
Yeah yer right Jag, I was sounding like Ron Popeil there for a sec. ahahahaha..

"Say Kung...can I get that kick with the accesories and spice rack?"

"why yes you can, and it comes with a cappacino maker and a video about how to set up your satellite dish in 3, yes 3 easy steps!"

peace

Kung Lek

Kung Lek
10-31-2000, 08:08 PM
I don't exactly agree with that no1.

It depends on where you are at in your training.

I know a few dudes who can get high kicks at yer head before the dukes are up. I know guys who prefer kicks to punches.
What you are saying is true about those who are at beginning and intermediate levels. Once the Lower Tan Tien is understood, the body tends to be balanced and highly mobile regardless of the striking appendage you choose to use.

High Kicks don't have to be slow just because they can take a little more energy to use.

peace

Kung Lek

Grays Anatomy
10-31-2000, 08:17 PM
Also - don't forget that there are situations where the hands are not the best choice or they are unavailable.

In the scenario I explained in my earlier post regarding Fu Jow - the hands are holding you up.

Jaguar Wong
10-31-2000, 11:51 PM
no1, I don't mean to jump all over your statement as well, cause for the most part, I think it makes sense. BUT just because my jab or snapping backfist is faster, and closer to my target than my right cross, doesn't mean it's automatically ruled out ...... think about it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Other than that, for the most part, I mainly use kicks low, and punches high, and both in the middle. There are exceptions (I got a mean knifehand to the outer thigh in close).

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

Rolling Elbow
11-01-2000, 12:03 AM
Hey Jicga, have you ever thought that your instructor does not teach high kicks because he knows how impractical they are? Your views are very typical o someone who has not matured or grown out of tae-kwondo.. i do not know enough about northern shaolin, but i do know enough about tae-kwondo. The percentage of people who can get away with speed and power kicking without losing balance in a fight are very few...even many amateur kickboxers and many many black belts telegraph those kicks a mile away- hence the beating they have taken by people with quick hands and grappling skills..I know far too many fighters and bouncers that are on you so quick the kicks have got to be delivered quick- really quick.

This is not to say that high kicking is inneffective, but you really have to know what you are doing...most taekwondo students do NOT. I wouldspend more time learning the ohter concepts he is teaching, space, distance, timing, zoning,etc...from there you can make the art your own and do whatever the hell you want with it. If you don't like it..walk away and go back to Tae-kwondo...i am sure they'd be willing to let you hit pads and pay them 300$ for your next red stripe /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif..

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

YoungForest
11-01-2000, 03:58 AM
that's why I quit TKD, because of the stupid belt system..

Rolling Elbow
11-01-2000, 04:15 AM
So you quit tae-kwondo because of teh "stupid" belt system and that is all? well you obviously have not lost their point of view..if you are looking for tae-kwondo without the belts and trying to find it in another system..you will be dissapointed. Furthermore, you will miss out on the true lessons which will lead you to see why tae-kwondo is such a poor combat/street system.

Yes i know, before everyone rants and raves...jimmy woo of such and such a place in incredible...that is because he is a master and has taken hapkido as well or hwrang do...niot just tae-kwondo alone. TKD remains the most unrealistic system there is out there. The hands are forgotten and flashy snap kicks and showmanship becomes reality. Do you know how easy a kick from most people is to catch? You get guys in there for 4-5 years and they are still too slow to kick with power. TKD is a joke, if you get an elbow or a fist on an incoming leg, i guarantee you they will think twice about trying it again.

You are far better off where you are..you will actually learn to fight. TKD cannot be dragged through the mud enough in both Canada and the United States..it is pure and utter crap. Why anyone would buy into the hype and competitions is beyond me. Even watching the Olympic matches...i could see them getting thir heads knowcked off trying some of those kicks...the part you don't see is where the fight goes to the ground and the TKD guy gets fed elbows....thank god for the wistles and the poomsie

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

NorthernShaolin
11-01-2000, 05:01 AM
Generally you can kick as high as you want because not everyone is built the same. Beginners attempt to kick high but can't because of their tight leg muscles. In demonstration and for stretching purposes, intermidiate and advance students will kick high but for fighting the high kicks are not recommonded unless their skill level and their abilities are at a very high level.

You should do your kicks according to the way the set dictates because the sets that you will learn later on will contain higher kicks.

YoungForest
11-01-2000, 04:47 PM
Listen, you were obviously beatin up but a TKD artist (roaring elbow), and that's why you keep bashing it in. The system is used to develop your kicking skills and your speed. That's all, if you want to bash anything, bash in Karate...

Taekwon-do does have a lot of flaws but its not meant for punches, or knees, or elbows or whatever the hell you use to fight.

Secondly, no one uses their martial art techniques to actually fight in real life.

A) You won't punch someone and go into your bow stance..

B) You won't hope for a left hook so you can do your best technique..

there are more reasons,

TKD is just there to build your kicking skills....nothing else...increase power, speed and quickness....

Valraven
11-01-2000, 06:18 PM
Kicking at the high line is as usefull as any other fighting skill, given the context.
(Blackjack, I would think that you would be more "JKD" minded)
Many real fights have been ended by good kick to the face or head.
TKD (northern kung fu, Savate, Muay Thai) does an excellent job in teaching the merits of this combat skill.
If you were a kicker, and you lost a fight, that's
on you. You can't blame kicking.
When a wrestler losses to a boxer is that wrestling's fault. Of course not.
Know what to do and when to do it. That is your
main concern as a martial artist.
Bashing a style just shows the huge gaps in your
fighting arsenal.
Valrave

dwid
11-01-2000, 06:50 PM
I'm not arguing for one or the other, first of all. Personally, I have no use for high kicks because I'm short and broad, and not built for effectively delivering them (thanks to the short legs, though, I can deliver some mean abdomenal kicks even at very close range). Anyway, I was watching a UFC fight where this guy was getting beat six ways from sunday by a dude about 50 pounds heavier than he was. Somehow, he managed to remain standing and the fight went into overtime. He managed to get a good forearm shot to the big guy's face, and suddenly the dude wasn't hitting with the same accuracy. Next (I watched this several times in slow motion it was so good) the smaller guy throws a feint, which was obviously so by the fact he fanned his fingers out at the end (it was just to get the guy's attention and it worked). While he threw the feint he chambered his right leg, and when the guy went for the block he hammered the side of his head with a beautiful roundhouse. The dude fell against the fence with this total spaced-out look. He didn't know what hit him, but he sure as hell wasn't getting up. Anyway, that's just one situation, but it shows a properly delivered high kick can have a place in some situations. Like I said though, I personally don't like 'em. Fortunately, there aren't any high kicks in Bagua.

Just my two cents...

Black Jack
11-01-2000, 07:00 PM
I am being practical with my well-being.

I am not saying that high-line kicks can not have merit but in a streetfight it is much safer and much better to keep your kicks low-line.

To me and many others that I know, high-line kicks do not fit in with the "absorb what is usefull" part of the experssion.

Its good commonsense in a streetfight to keep your kicks below waist level. I do not see how these fancy and offbalance high-line moves could ever be considered and taught as extremely effective.

In a enviroment outside of the training hall, when the stress hits and you are in a much different setting, these moves can get you beat up. The movements are telegraphic, they break up mobility and balance as well as destroy a much needed solid foundation.

Not only the above mentioned factors, but high-line kicks are tools which take a lot of extra conditioning and specific attributes to be considered effective and even then they are IMO still in serious doubt.

Low-line kicks do not need to be kept up in this way, the percentages for faliure of the attack are not as high and you still keep the above mentioned abilities of mobility, balance and foundation in check as well as a much more destructive tool in terms of damage and less telegraphic movement.

As for the Savate fighters and Thai Boxers you mentioned. Those fights are for "sport" and not for "real life". They have a safety net incase they fall and lose there balance or get trapped or thrown.

In a sport you do not have to worry about the other party trying to eye gouge you or bite you when you get all wrapped up, you dont have to worry about multiple attackers coming to help out there buddy, there is no fear of hidden blades or weapons he can pick up and hit you with once you get tossed onto the very hard cement littered with bits of broken bottle and rock.

If you watch experianced Savate players "self derfense spar" agaisnt one another, you will witness very few serious kicks above the waist level, its like a chest match, fencing with the feet and can often times when you see two experianced fighters go at it, look almost boring when compared to a Thai fight.

From Savate & Thai I use there painfull and destructive low-line kicks as well as Savates nice feints, Panajackman is also another art which I incorporate which uses very brutal low-line kicks and stomps that can be used in conjunction with my hand skills at close range.

I would say that the absence of high-kicks in ones toolbox is considered realistic and practical and never a loss.

I also never bashed anyones style.

Regards

[This message was edited by Black Jack on 11-02-00 at 11:09 AM.]

JWTAYLOR
11-01-2000, 07:26 PM
I'm not in any way Northern Shaolin, but what the hell, I'll chime in anyway.

I have been in too many street fights, but I have NEVER thrown a kick in them. It never came up.

I have only seen one kick thrown effectively in a street fight. Almost every time I've ever seen a kick thrown it missed or was innefective. The one kick I did see do some damage was a back kick thrown by a Hopkido stylist friend of mine. It broke the other guy's hip. (Really horrible sound. It sounded kind of like one of the boards in a couch breaking.)

Big lessons I've learned here. One, don't kick unless you know it will do serious damage. And two, kicks can do serious damage.

JW

Jaguar Wong
11-01-2000, 07:38 PM
dwid, I think you're talking about the Mark Coleman vs Pete Williams fight. Williams used the same strategy that Maurice Smith used to beat Coleman, stop the submission and ground and pound, and bring the fight to standing. The only difference is Petey scored the KO instead of just the decision.

One thing you have to remember with that fight, though. That kick was in overtime, which meant they were going at it for a while. Plus Pete had to set up that shot. He didn't just throw it out (like the Yvel vs Goodridge fight /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ). It worked, but like every one else said, there's a time and place for everything /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Valraven, I wish there was a thumbs up icon here. Oh wait .... http://boards.infopop.net/infopop/icons1/icon14.gif Hope that works

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

LEGEND
11-01-2000, 09:55 PM
I had the privilidge of sparring several NORTHERN SHAOLIN guys...they do kick high!
I was very impressed with these guys...I myself am not a great standup fighter...I use boxing( need to go to a school for 6 months to a year ) and THAI BOXING standup...but those guys were very accurate with their techs. I was very impressive with the combos...and interception method!!!

A

Tvebak
11-01-2000, 11:27 PM
I have a friend who teaches "Classcal" Taekwondo. He uses his legs in ways that i can only dream about, very effective. Most of the kicks are low, many are used after a grab. Many off them are aimed accuretly at targets on the arms, such as biceps, armpit or fingers. also he uses a lot of limbdestruktions with the arms.
In his school he never teaches, because nobody wants to learn. All that peoble wants is the fancy bull****.

Rolling Elbow
11-02-2000, 12:12 AM
How did you guess it Jigja...some pimple faced 13 year old moron with a 3 degree black belt in TKD handed me my ass on a plate...and i have suffered numerous defeats by gangs of TKD yellow belts out to cause trouble in the park on Sunday mornings...

Are you just an idiot, or are your views based on the fact that your voice has not yet cracked? "Roaring Elbow" has seen many blackbelt products from TKD schools. Years of kicking pads and "tap" competitions (point sparring) has decreased their power to 0%..they tap and slap- not hit!

Good okinawan Karate would eat you alive my friend..and ninjutsu, don't make me laugh. Anyone who knows what they are doing in this art would let you throw about two kicks before they took your balance or smashed your limbs. Take off the shin pads,gloves,helmet, and foot pads- this is reality, not the jumping spinning back kick.

If TKD is not meant for punches, kicks, elbows, kness- WHAT THE HELL GOOD IS IT TO ANYBODY MAN? Do you really believe your kicks are faster than my hands? you are not superfoot Bill Wallace or Benny the Jet, and they used their hands too. Is TKD a fighting system or just an intermediate step to teaching you how to kick? Do it on your own..don't come here and complain to people who practice real arts that their art is lacking in unrealistic bull**** flamboyant kicks...do you know how many TKD guys have come off the street and asked to see and spar full contact against our instructors? Many..do you know how many lasted more than 2 minutes? NONE. And this is the best part;

A) You won't punch someone and go into your bow stance..

But you may find your self in a transitory state- going through the bow stance where you are powerful and very much able to take a low shot at someone or cut his target off for a split second.

B) You won't hope for a left hook so you can do your best technique..

I don't have a "best" technique..i have concepts and my entire body to use as a weapon..I don't care what i hit with. It can be my shoulder, my hip, my head, or my elbow...have you ever felt any of these things bare knuckle and without a chest protector?..keep bouncing and dancing on your tippy toes...your legs will be cut down so quickly by you Shaolin training partners that you'll learn the hard way why you should not stay in a style that you do not respect.

If you want to practice kicking..do so on your own time..don't waste your sifu's time with stupid expectations and wishes..you obviously do not want to learn how to fight, you want to learn how to LOOK like you can fight.

If you feel TKD is that superior, why don't you ask your sifu to go one on one so that he can show why it is not. I have seen some real idiots on here..but man, you really take the cake.


:eek

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

DrunkenMonkey
11-02-2000, 12:26 AM
Tis sometimes true that some Northern Shaolin instructors do not stress higher kicks to the head or neck or upper chest. Usually its not because we don't like higher kicks, but because the instructor has bad experiences with people complaining about stressed muscles etc. It is also true that in many techniques that Northern Shaolin teaches, the form of the body is kept as tight as possibly, reducing openings to attack and increasing power.

To me, it is hard for me to believe that Northern Shaolin does not teach a wide variety of kicks, seeing as whenever I talk to people who are in Northern Shaolin or have seen it, they say that its kicks are very efficient and powerful and flexible. Dunno.

Underaged Drunken Monkey

YoungForest
11-02-2000, 03:33 AM
You must be the most ignorant person i've ever met.
You are an idiot. As simple as that. I don't know where you have seen teakwon-do fighters but you're giving me the impression that all your TKD Fighters suck an ass where you live.

There are different styles of taekwondo and your idiot ass has been watching too many WTF fights.

let me go over what the difference are for you so you would get a better idea.

ITF (international taekwondo federation) produces fighters. You don't see their competitions on TV cause its not a sport. The point in ITF is to kick higher then the belt and to basically hit with full force.

Good luck magically blocking a 400 pound turning kick or an 400 pound axe kick coming to your face.

WTF (world taekwondo federation) produces athletes.
what you see on tv is just tapin the sides of the body or the face to get points. That is more on the sports side of the art. They produce speed and quickness..NOT POWER

Mo Ying
11-02-2000, 05:13 AM
Bak Sil-lum or northrn shaolin teachs to extend the limbs as far as possible (hence high kicks) to develop the potential of the student, but in combat, kicks are to low targets so as not to expose oneself to easy counterattacks.

Rolling Elbow
11-02-2000, 05:54 AM
I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this..I think you are talking out of your ass and have a very closed mind..you obviously do not understand martial arts or kung fu from a tactical point of view..I could care less if the ITF or WTF guys kick for power..bottom line, they are still only kickers, someone who can fight in all the other ranges has more chance of survival in real combat..given the situation, wher he may end up etc.. Increase your efficiency in all ranges and you increase your odds of walking away from a fight. TKD can be "effective" when practiced by someone who possesses the physical skill and experience to make it such. Furthermore, these effectife TKD guys know how to use their hands too...they are not fools like you and think that their feet alone will save their asses.

I think that you are probably the bigger idiot here because you have chosen to study a system without the willingness to empty your cup so that it may be refilled with more knowledge and a deeper understanding of body mechanics and combat efficiency. You are unable to see past TKD and are looking for nothing more than a cheaper way to acheive the same means....you will not. I doubt very much you have the power and speed that the effective TKD guys have.., the good thing about other arts is that you do not necesarily need to be fast or powerful...just understand how to control space, lead an opponent out of his comfort zone, and strike to take balance...you will learn none of this in TKD. Go kick air and watch your shadow...that is about all your opinions and complaints are worth in my opinion /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

YoungForest
11-02-2000, 06:05 AM
Once again, I beleive you received sever beatings from a TKD artist.

Rolling Elbow
11-02-2000, 11:52 PM
Nice try Jig"Jerk", you will not get the "Roaring" elbow to roar on this one, I won't waste a further word on you..

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

Dragon Warrior
11-04-2000, 08:11 AM
I am a Northern Shaolin stylist. We train both low and high leg kicks. If you cant do one or the other than you are not a complete martial artist. It is obvious that both can be useful in certain situations. I've landed both high and low kicks. Anyone who says either one is not useful is just ignorent, and probably cant throw a high kick or an effective low one.

Temptation tempts my victim to proceed,
forward ignorence wouldn't allow retreat,
you'd rather pursue death than admit defeat (Masta Killa: Wu Tang Clan)

Chris V.

Arioch7
11-04-2000, 06:35 PM
LOL! I like this one. I train in Northern Longfist and I see high kicks all the time. I would love to see a TKD'er perform a proper tornado kick, where the kicking foot hits the ground first. Someday, maybe...

Also, WTF TKD'er do wear pads but they are going FULL contact, not "point sparring" A small point, but I figured I would bring it up.

Ok, I have experience with TKD and I have to honestly say that a modern TKD practioner is usually NOT a good fighter. They are good TKD "sport" fighters, but... not much else. As Rolling Elbow mentioned, the good TKD fighters go outside the system to get additional skills and add versatility to thier arsenals.

TKD has its uses, but to be honest with the forum, I am glad I am no longer taking it

Jimbo
11-04-2000, 07:29 PM
For me personally, the ability to high kick is just to have another physical skill. Way back when I was a kid in karate my specialty was flexibility and kicking. Even back then, though, I never considered using a kick above the groin or solar plexus level in a fight, because I'd seen too many real fights where some "martial arts" guy tried a high kick (sometimes very decent high kicks) and got their leg grabbed and they got slammed down.

Nowadays I emphasize a more complete training approach, with more emphasis on hand blows, footwork, and low to mid-area kicks. I still stretch and can still do the high kicks but do so only for flexibility/balance training now, and rarely do them anymore.

There are indeed guys that can make kicks at any target work. They are NOT the majority. Even Hee Ill Cho, one of the best TKD masters and a super kicker, claims that as he ages, his kicks have deteriorated much faster than his hand techniques (which he's also very good at using). And I've found it's true myself.
Jim

8stepsifu
11-04-2000, 09:49 PM
I'm not trying to take sides here, but you said that the TKD fighters that Rollingelbow has seen must have sucked. Well....the TKD fighters that anyone has seen sucked. What other style produces blackbelts that any golfer could take out? Thats just my experince...and Rolling Elbows and countless others on this forum and others. I used to dance around how I felt about TKD, but I have to admit that I don't think tkd is worth the time or money. I think it gives people a false sense of security and it gives martial arts a bad name. I saw the U.S. championship for tkd on ESPN 2. They were were all serious and shouting. It was sad. One guy finally took an axe kick to the shoulder and gave up. His lips weren't white! He wasn't shaking! He had a will of jello and he was one of the best in the country! I can honestly say that I could have taken both of these geeks out and I can't say the same about two high wrestlers or even basketball players. Its not cuz I'm so good, its because they were so bad.
Because there are so many TKD practioners like them that I feel genuinely insulted when people think that I do TKD,
I guarantee that everyone bashing TKD has spent years doing it or has fought lots of tkd blackbelts expecting a good fight only to be disapointed.

After you beat the snot out of them they say, "no grappling" the after some more they say, "no throwing or joint locks, then Its, "No close range, lets just do long range fighting", Then you beat them playing their own game. Then they get too tired and then they talk about stagegy and tend to some injury that you gave them. You then massage it out and let them borrow some Jow before they go home.

Sound familiar

8Step Sifu

Arioch7
11-04-2000, 11:10 PM
So, your a big fan? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I dont know if I would be THAT harsh. I agree with the post but I have known quite a few hard hitting TKD'ers. I would be disgusted if I saw the display that you witnessed on ESPN2. I have seen a couple incidents like the one you had described but my school was not like that. I have seen people quit after having thier cups cracked in half by an errant kick.

I have heard a lot about McDojangs springing up all over the place. My belief is that this is probably to blame for the decline in quality TKD training. WE never point sparred but practiced take downs and semi-contact when we were not training full contact with bodypads. I have been struck square in the face by roundhouse kicks(With a mask and without.) more times then I care to count. In informal sessions it was free style so I have also been punched more times as well.

I have helped train fighters in competetions and they were not quitters. When we were training, we had some pretty brutal rules that some may think went contrary to the spirit of fair play. We would hit hard and fast, attempting to inflict as much pain as possible to demoralize the opponnent. When people are frightened and in pain, they lose focus. You might beat any of the fighters I have trained with but they sure as hell would not have quit after an axe kick. I dont quit unless I am not conscious or I am physically unable to go on. My partners felt much the same way. It is what the Koreans call "Indomitable Spirit.".

I have known fighters that would kick you HARD in the face as the bell rang. Sure, he would lose a half a point(Sometimes a full point depending on the judge.), but the other fighter was usually knocked on his ass and didn't have much of an edge after that. Dishonorable, but I am trying tio give you an idea of the persons mindset. In other words, he is not a pushover, but a dirty, hard hitting fighter who would do everything to beat you in a sparring session. An average informal session would be someone trying thier ****edest to kick me in the face. Easy, you might think. LOL, not when you are facing someone that can throw about two kicks a second and keeps coming, coming, coming... true, I can punch a lot faster then I kick. However, I kick FAST, very fast.

To continue with my TKD tale, I also developed strategies to fight in TKD competitions that focused on TKD's weaknesses. The person that brought up punching or striking the kicking leg was dead on. I have seen peoples insteps severely damaged due to hitting an elbow. Kicks are relatively easy to block and you can just let high kickers wear themselves out and then... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif This all applies to competition though so perhaps it is not applicable.

It is my belief that TKD is an OK long range fighting form and a valuable tool to increase skill with the feet. It can develop awful habits but I have met some **** good fighters that were TKD people so I dont like to issue blanket statements calling them all wimps... which if you think about it is what you have called me.

I know it seems like I am riding both sides of the fence but I think this long-winded post helped clarify my views on the subject.

Braden
11-05-2000, 10:42 AM
High kicks bad. Kicking is for knees and shins.

Knees though... knees are good.

8stepsifu
11-05-2000, 08:45 PM
You know as well as I that 90 percent of the TKD schools suck. I'm glad that your school is different. It sounds more traditional from what I understand about TKD.

8Step Sifu

YoungForest
11-06-2000, 05:19 AM
high kicks are good!
only if you know how to kick...
if anyone watches K-1, you'll know what i mean by kicking....

especially a guy named Andy Hug (R.I.P.)

when was the last time u saw someone blocking an axe kick coming down on your nose? watch some k-1 tapes and watch Andy work the guys with high kicks....

80 percent of the people who kick high aren't trained right to kick high...
Trust me, i know, i've been to many many many tournaments and watched many on tapes and visited many TKD schoools....most of them suck....they're getting tought by a 15 year old 3 degree black belt...

Does that mean anything to you when i say belt systems don't mean ****...

but the 20 percent who know how to kick......good luck

Arioch7
11-06-2000, 06:42 AM
Thanks, I agree with you 8step, I think that most (Read: 95%) schools suck, and the MA's I trained with were fighters first and TKD'ers second.

I just wanted to post that TKD is not COMPLETELY worthless... as a style it is, as a tool it is not.

Dig? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT: I am not training with Korean stylists now, I train specifically in Longfist and grappling(Shuai Jhuai.) I think Chinese styles are FAR superior and a hell of a lot more versatile. I just had to give some respect to the style I practiced for years. Personally, I would not bother with a TKD school now.

[This message was edited by Arioch7 on 11-06-00 at 10:51 PM.]

Rolling Elbow
11-06-2000, 03:08 PM
When is Jigja going to realize that 90% of the population and those who study martial arts.., do not have the speed of K1 kickboxers!! At best we would look like amateur kickboxers and too many of those guys while not slow..can be read by an experienced enough fighter..low kicks on the other hand, are far harder to block and see..

He is right, good kicker sin TKD can kick, but most people are not good kickers, so give them somehting else to work with. I still don't understand why he is studying kungfu if his heart is set in TKD?

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

Ben Gash
11-06-2000, 03:37 PM
I've said it before, I'll say it again, I have used high kicks and jumping kicks for real. I didn't get killed, I wasn't suckered by an easy counter, I wasn't tackled and forced to submit, and I only landed on my ass once (and it didn't matter, 'cause so did he). I've also used punches, joint locks and throws.
I don't go out there to kick people, it's just that sometimes the opening's there, and the timing's right.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

Black Jack
11-06-2000, 09:05 PM
Keep doing what you are doing and sooner or later it will bite you on the ass.

The fact that you landed on your kester should have taught you a vauluble lesson.

It sounds like you have fought agaisnt a couple of dancing clowns. When you meet up with a serious streetfighter, your high kicks will get you a quick trip to the hospital, but don't take my word for it, keep throwing those pretty kicks and see where it lands you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Regards

YoungForest
11-07-2000, 05:52 AM
my heart is not set on TKD but i don't understand why in my shaolin school, ALL of our kicks are low or to the mid section.

Now you can give me 101 reasons why low kicks are better but that just proves how limited you are...

All I wanted to know is that how many other schools ONLY kick low..

LEGEND
11-07-2000, 03:27 PM
jiga...wing chun schools and most southern kung fu arts kick low!

A

Grays Anatomy
11-07-2000, 03:43 PM
Why does kicking low-to-middle make you "limited"?

Yes - many schools kick low to middle and I am sure a lot of the practitioners here will tell you that MOST but not ALL of the kicks are low in most of the Southern KF and some of the Northern as well.

BUT

There are ALWAYS exceptions. If you train your kicks low-to-middle then most of your combat kicking will be low-to-middle (as you have read here, many people feel that this is where most of your power is) - no argument there BUT a good martial artist who has gotten good training will modify what is in their arsenal to fit the situation.

If you train low-to-middle kicks and you are in a situation where NOTHING else will work but a high kick then you kick high.

I would be hard pressed to think of a situation where nothing in your arsenal will work except for a high kick.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Can you? Maybe if your hands are tied and someone is standing on a table....I don't know.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

If you want to go home from class and train all those low-to-middle kicks in the upper gate then do s

GLW
11-07-2000, 05:09 PM
1. There is a story of Wu Song in Outlaws of the Marsh. He was imprisoned and the guards were paid to kill him. His arms were chained and his legs were also in soe accounts bound. Using leg techniques that included high kicking and using the chains he defended himself. This is preserved in a couple of sets called Wu song breaks manacles. So, the ability to kick high is not 100% useless even though low to mid level kicks are much more practical.

2. The stretching and practice required to kick high can and will make your lower kicks easier, faster, and more powerful. In Zhaquan, the saying is "Stances - train low, use high, Kicks - train high, use low" for just this reason.

YoungForest
11-09-2000, 02:23 AM
the fact that when i ask "sifu, why don't we kick head level.." and he replays "your groing is unprotected..."
is why i might think is fake...that is a reason but its a dumb one

if you have fast and powerful kicks, there is no one someone can kick you in the groing..

1/100 times maybe...but hardly..
what about TKD artists..in sparring, when they kick high, do they get hit all the time in the groing?

Do you see where i'm going with this?

Jimbo
11-09-2000, 09:31 PM
A lot of times, when you see TKD sparring, and two fighters are high kicking and not getting hit in the groin, it's because the rules under which they are fighting do not allow groin shots (or leg grabs).

Of course, there are rare persons who are so well-balanced, loose, and quick they can land a kick to your head in the street at the right time. I've seen it happen. But I've also seen a guy try a fast, high round kick to the head, got his leg grabbed, was swung into a wall and strangled until he vomited blood. And this guy had a so-called "kicker's body"; that is, long, lean, athletic, fast and flexible.

Regarding southern systems, many practitioners within southern styles, like Hung Ga, Choy Lee Fut, and even Bak Mei and Wing Chun, will do some kicks high in practice. (examples: high front snap kicks, side kicks, front heel thrusts). But during actual application tend to keep the kicks low to mid-level. I'm a southern stylist, and I myself often front snap kick or do other kicks fairly high when doing forms. That's because it's comfortable, trains flexibility, and there's no resistance when kicking air. During bag work, or sparring, my kicks stay mid-to-low.

So with many kicks, you yourself can modify their height during practice. Flexibility is important, but also remember the balance and often power generation is different for low kicks. There are people who only train super high kicks who, oddly enough, cannot do low kicks very well.
Jim

HuangKaiVun
11-10-2000, 06:56 PM
In my experience, the TKD instructors I've had (old school Korean TKD masters) were really tough cats.

Though they were very skilled in competition TKD, they were even better at streetfighting techniques.

As far as my training went, I didn't receive much emphasis on kicking in praticular. I received a full martial education - one I couldn't continue because I moved.

Personally, I prefer kung fu because I'm Chinese and watch HK dubbed movies. However, I wouldn't mind training in TKD - one of the great styles of martial arts there is.

YoungForest
11-10-2000, 07:28 PM
I totally agree with you but unfortunatly you can't find any schools in OTTAWA that has any old school tradition (TKD, Karate, Kung Fu..)

These days, everyschool has their own "system" built into the traditional art..they tend to add a lot of self defense stuff but im more interested in the ACTUAL art..not addition to the art.

Rolling Elbow
11-10-2000, 08:34 PM
JigGa, I have discussed that with my instructor on numerous occasions about martial arts in Ottawa..There ARE traditional schools, but they aren't in the high kicking style that you want. You will NOT find good TKD here in Ottawa, that is it. We have masters on every corner..whether or not they used to teach with combat in mind..they now only teach with $$$$ in mind.

If you can look past TKD and Shaolin, there is traditional White Crane kung-fu in the Nepean area(yes, they do some high kicks from what i understand..but could be wrong based on the style), or traditional Chito Ryu karate. If you are interested, I could find out about where the Karate school is or if they are still of high quality..but man, you have to lose or distance yourself from this high kick only mentality. You will not really find it in the traditional schools we have here..you'll find it in the modern schools we have here though. You have to choose..unfortunately we don't have any good traditional schools that I know of in Ottawa that'll teach the high kick head hunting game.. There is also Wing Chun(at Sunny Tang, or the Augustine Fong lineage off Bank Street in the Glebe area), the Sifu's are supposed to be really good- but again, the kicks are not going to be high in the beginning and from what I tell, you seem to have this idea of what you want your Martial Arts to look like.. I don't know what else to tell you. You can spend all life looking for something that doesn't exist or you get get a great base in something that is practical- choose wisely lol

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North.

Braden
11-10-2000, 10:33 PM
JigGa

A couple things.

1 - There is no such thing as traditional shaolin. Shaolin is a descriptive term adopted by hundreds of styles this century because it sells. Usually when people say shaolin they mean lohan, 5 animals, or one of the longfist styles. However, shaolin is typically used to refer to any chinese style of primarily buddhist descent. You will never find "true shaolin" because it doesn't exist.

2 - "Northern kicks and southern punches" is a complete lie. It's not an overstatement or a generalization, it simply isn't true at all. All kungfu styles are pretty well rounded, but none of them will teach you to use jumping kicks or high kicks in usage.

3 - You're welcome to have your own opinions of course, but the general consensus in both the kungfu and the general martial arts community is that high or jumping kicks will get you in trouble in self-defense. In my own experience I have found this to be very true. To good effect I have stomp kicked someone in the chest while our arms were occupied, and have done a number of jumping knees to the chin in similar circumstances. Other than these very limited cases, I have never seen a kick above the groin used effectively in self defense. I've seen lots used VERY uneffectively though.

4 - There are a bunch of traditional schools in Ottawa. Even some good ones.

YoungForest
11-10-2000, 10:56 PM
whoa.....you guys are right.
I guess i've been to influenced by movies..