Does the jump kick exist in combat?

[IronFist]

You thoughts please...

:D

IronFist

[ShaolinTiger00]

8.0 for the first spin-off I've saw on KFO

AYBABTU

[Water Dragon]

You must've missed all my spin off's. I'll get one for ya.

[Former castleva]

"Maybe not in combat but..."

Certainly,in mortal combat.

In the end of the day,it is up to combat?

[Kinjit]

Definately. But only for kicking down horses riding on men :D

[Golden Arms]

From what I remember in double dragon and final fight the jump kick is a very effective way of dealing with multiple attackers...especially when 4 or 5 come at you in a line from each side!

[diego]

but seriously some jumping leg strikes are good in theory agianst certian multiple attacker situations, such as the tornadoe kick is usefull if you know how to set it up right!.

[Former castleva]

I think it was hurricane kick (might have been tornado,not sure.Maybe dragon kick?)
Yes,in db2&3 it is highly effective when dealing with multiple opponent´s (2) or certain big opponents.
Not as effective in Final Fight,since you lose energy...sorry,I mean qi.
But as one might guess,takes a good timing and control.

[desertwingchun2]

I did a jumping/flying/idiotic kick once. We were fighting some dudes in front of a 7-11 and I saw a perfect opportunity to kick this guy right through the front window, you know just like on tv.

I set up beutifully. When I was in the air I targeted his kidneys and kicked with all I had. Yea, then I flew backward and landed square on my @ss!! One of the most embarasing things I ever did in a fight. And yes my friends saw the whole thing!!

-David

[red5angel]

I saw one work well in high school. THere was this guy Chad who was about 6' or so and about 200 lbs. My buddy Kit, a little vietnamese guy, got his books knocked out of his hand by this guy chad, he picked them up, handed them to another guy walking with us and while Chad was walking away laughing and taunting him, Kit ran at him and jumped kicked him right in the head!
To CHads credit he didn't go down though, it took Kits follow up Tornado kick to knock him down!!!

Of course I saw a freind of mine a few years before that kick not only Chad's a$$ but his freinds at the same time so Chad didn't exaclty have the best track record when it came to fighting. Come to think of it, those two times Chad got his butt kicked were probably two of the best fights I have ever seen!

[Crimson Phoenix]

Okie, this is going to be real silly, be ready: "almost everything can work if you use it the right way at the right time".

Hmm...kind of ashamed by this low-key statement, so let me elaborate on my humble opinion: yes, they can work. But not used in any way. I find the jumping linear kicks much more useful than jumping circular kicks (spinning ones included). A good ol' regular slap kick or front press kick while jumping on your opponent not only makes you able to close the distance fast, but also gives you a good momentum. Not to mention the "in your face" feeling you convey to your opponent, that might help you instigate doubtor mabe fear in his/her mind. Of course you gotta do it right, or you'll just instigate :rolleyes: and "what the hell is this wacko thinking he's doing??" heheheheheheheh

They can be quite good as an evade as well, covering your retreat. I often use slap kicks while jumping back (it cuts my opponent will to follow me, or at least makes his task harder), or a tornado kick to cover a diagonal evade. Double jump kicks are also very good, making it harder to counter than regular single jump kicks...

For me, jump kicks of any kind should be used only as part of a well-devised distance-control strategy (whether you want to close-in, or get some room to breath). Try to avoid using isolated jump kicks, rather integrate them in your combination strategies...

They are definitely something worth working on, of course, don't give them too much importance, but don't discard them too quickly as well...

[Kinjit]

I think they can be devastating when used on someone from behind. But other than that...Hmmmmmmmm...

[Crimson Phoenix]

uhhh...well, if your opponent is showing your back on you (in the event he's not performing a spinning backfist or kick), there are much wiser things to do than jump kicks...
The occasion is too good to make anything that fancy when simple things could get the job done in a more certain way...
IMHO

[dnc101]

in one move you've really po'd the guy, given up your base, positioned yourself so that you have few options to change up your attack or defense, and told him exactly where you'll be in about one second. Sounds like a good move to me, oh yea!

[Crimson Phoenix]

positioned yourself so that you have few options to change up your attack or defense


Well, you can perform jump kicks landing in the exact position you started...i'd guess you have as many options before you started (provided, I agree, you're not landing like a dead elephant)...


and told him exactly where you'll be in about one second

well, technically this can be said about anything ranging from stepping to punching...IMHO, this is a little unfair remark.

Anyway, to each their opinions...some can really make the jumping kicks work, while others will be killer with completely different techs...fighters are all different, and what works for one might not work for another...and vice versa...

I still hold my personal take on jumping kicks: an integral part of one's arsenal, which should not be given neither more nor less importance than other techs...

[SevenStar]

I've used a jump roundhouse in a fight. It hit him, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

[Kinjit]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
uhhh...well, if your opponent is showing your back on you (in the event he's not performing a spinning backfist or kick), there are much wiser things to do than jump kicks...
The occasion is too good to make anything that fancy when simple things could get the job done in a more certain way...
IMHO

Not that _I_ would do it... There was a infamous incident here in Sweden were a ****ed hooligan (obviously not happy with the score) did sort of a jumping kick on a football referee from behind. I think he got crippled or something.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

jump kicks? fighting? i would rather just lay down and let them start stomping my head. i dont talk myself up on the forum very much, but this is coming from a guy who's very agile, can jump like a black man, and has some of the more powerful arial kicks i have seen. infact, it be willing to bet a small sum of money (like 5 dollars) that i could keep up with the biggest guys on the forum where power is concerned in the air. but strong as my kicks may be this does not change the fact that i weigh 140lbs. there are too many things a guy sevenstar's size could do to simply pluck me out of the air and slam me in not so nice positions.

now if the situations were reversed it wouldnt be as big of a deal. if sevenstar came at me with an jumping kick i have to get the fu ck out of the way. the odds are he's not going to be in any worse position when he lands simply because i'd be so suprised that someone actually tried it in a fight. plus if it hits it's likely not going to be pretty for me. if he tried it a second time though, he'd be more likely to get hit with something upon landing.

i agree with seven in that it could happen, certain circumstances make it less dangerous, but i wouldnt plan on it or anything.

[David Jamieson]

If you have landed two (or one, or whatever) good hard, rapid consecutive strikes in a row, a jump reverse heel kick actually is quite a servicable technique in combat (fighting , street fighting, full contact sparring)

not a lot of people do it though and it's low, but it is technically a jump. not a kicking a horse off a man :D type of kick like the high 360s.

tornados are used to deal with someone closing behind you in my understanding of their dynamics. you gotta have speed to pull them off, as well as power to make them effective, as well as everything else that 1 in 10,000 people can do :)

a running jump kick was likely used this week alone in north america. :D

[dnc101]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Well, you can perform jump kicks landing in the exact position you started...i'd guess you have as many options before you started (provided, I agree, you're not landing like a dead elephant)...
You still have to land and reestablish your base. Untill that happens, your options are limmited. If he evades or counters your kick he has unlimmited options. We're only talking seconds or even fractions of a second here. But in a fight, that can be eternity.

dnc101: "and told him exactly where you'll be in about one second."
well, technically this can be said about anything ranging from stepping to punching...IMHO, this is a little unfair remark.

If you jump up, you are going to come down in a very limmited area, and he knows it. If you have your base, you can move any direction and any distance you are physically capable of. He does not know what you are going to do unless you telegraph.I think this is a fair and accurate assesment.

I still hold my personal take on jumping kicks: an integral part of one's arsenal, which should not be given neither more nor less importance than other techs...

If you like them, fine. Some people can make them work against some other people some of the time. I work out with some TKDistas, and I've been nailed hard by jumping kicks. But more often they end up on their butt. I (and most of them) wouldn't want to count on that kind of attack if it was for real. I don't even practice jumping kicks seriously. Same with high kicks- they are for developing ballance and technique, not for fighting (in my never so humble opinion, though everyone else is certainly entitled to theirs).

[diego]

Originally posted by dnc101
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Well, you can perform jump kicks landing in the exact position you started...i'd guess you have as many options before you started (provided, I agree, you're not landing like a dead elephant)...
You still have to land and reestablish your base. Untill that happens, your options are limmited. If he evades or counters your kick he has unlimmited options. We're only talking seconds or even fractions of a second here. But in a fight, that can be eternity.



If he evades or counters your kick he has unlimmited options.

arent you contradicting yourself here and conferring with crimson?.

if he evades or counters your jab he has many options also!??...or am i misreading this?.

[diego]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
If you have landed two (or one, or whatever) good hard, rapid consecutive strikes in a row, a jump reverse heel kick actually is quite a servicable technique in combat (fighting , street fighting, full contact sparring)

not a lot of people do it though and it's low, but it is technically a jump. not a kicking a horse off a man :D type of kick like the high 360s.

tornados are used to deal with someone closing behind you in my understanding of their dynamics. you gotta have speed to pull them off, as well as power to make them effective, as well as everything else that 1 in 10,000 people can do :)

a running jump kick was likely used this week alone in north america. :D


Hello Kung, in the limited hopgar i was shown, the main theoretical usages for tornadoe kicks is: if he does a low sweeping broom kick, then you can tornado over it so he doesnt catch your support-leg!. Would theoretically work good if you did a roundkick or a slashing-round-sidekick along his knee to try to make him bend over, then if this happens with the same leg you did the setup roundkick you would then do a tornado kick to his face. and another one thats similar in theory a tornado could be used after you do a backkick or a tigertail kick to his groin such as if he grabs your shoulder from behind, you step forward with your left and turn to your right and with your right hand claw and grip his collarbone and with your rightleg execute a tigertail kick to his groin, then step that leg down, then lift off your left and execute a right tornado kick to his face"can also use the round-slashing-sidekick here, oppossed to a basic inside crescent kick!."...now these are all done with a hop and not a kick him off his horse JUMP!.

thats all theory of course, and agian in theory as setups and quik knock outs, this tech could serve as usefull in multiple combat...or hopgar masters are idiots and use this kick as a main feature of the system because they are bored!?????.:)

[dnc101]

Diego, I think you misread it. The fighter performing a jumping kick has limmited options while in the air. He goes up, he will come down. And while up, he can't move laterally, break his timeing, or even change position or posture much because he has to be ready for the landing. Without a base most of his power principles are compromised. Once your feet leave the ground you are susceptable to being swept or moved anywhere he wants to take you. You can be thrown easily. Or he can strike where you are going to be so the strike lands before or as you do- like I said, he knows just where you'll be.The fighter who retains his base has mobility and power- options. The flying kicker has little until he lands and reestablishes his base. And even just a hard block to the kick can cause the kicker to land out of position and off ballance. That does not equate to a reestablished base- you are still very vulnerable.

[fa_jing]

I used some jump kicks in point-sparring comps back in my TKD days. It was often effective as no one thought it was coming - I used to jump from my on guard stance and kick a roundhouse (turning) kick to the side of the head with my rear leg. One time about 12 years ago some fake tiger - KF a'hole rolled back to the floor on me and kicked me in the nuts, at the Keystone State Games. I was on the floor for 10 minutes, even though I had a cup on. Apparantly at this nut's school they practiced with the groin as a legal target.

[TkdWarrior]

jump kicks works..??
yes when ur oppnt knows how to fly n u don't ;) :D

seriously they always works
but to lure MA wannabe's :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Crimson Phoenix]

dnc...


If you jump up, you are going to come down in a very limmited area, and he knows it. If you have your base, you can move any direction and any distance you are physically capable of. He does not know what you are going to do unless you telegraph.I think this is a fair and accurate assesment

In theory I would have to agree with that. In practice, it's not easy to suddenly shift while performing an evade, unless you predicted that shift RIGHT before even starting it. People often forget that once you are commited to a move, you do it all the way, failing or not. It is why rotating body evades work against a hook, if your opponent could adjust the trajectory while punching, he'd catch you right on the jaw by adjusting. Instead of that he punches, and even if he sees you ducking under his punch, truth is the punch will still follow the inital trajectory. The more commited the strike, the less spontaneity you have to change it in mid air. Thaï exponent, if kicking hard, spin around when they miss the target. If it were so easy to, in mid-air, cancel a move, they'd stop right after they realize they miss. But they don't. That's the whole principle of upper-body attacks evasion in boxing: once the guy in front of you has sent the blow, there is NO way he can, in mid-air, change it to another blow (unless, I repeat, that was intended before the blow is fired). That is why slight movements of the head inside the trajectory can be used to avoid a cross or a direct punch, and why rotating body evade work against hooks.
This is exactly also why people, once sitting, can fall helplessly if you remove the chair at the right moment. They see the chair is going away, yet their mind just continues the movement until they fall on their ass.
Jumping is like any other kind of stepping to me. Agreed, it's a little more "commited", hence a little more dangerous.
But truth is, few people, when stepping, have the control to suddenly shift direction and do a whole different thing. Almost all of us, when commited to an action will perform it whatever happens. Jumping is the same.
You take the example of stepping...well, technically when you step (say, diagonally), your opponent (if I follow your scheme of thougts) is able to estimate where you will end up, no? And even stepping induces a short period when, after stepping, you transfer your weight on the leg you just planted and can barely do anything else. That is why aptly timed sweeps can work. If everyone could, in mid-move during stepping, just realize the sweep is coming and cancel their redistribution of weight, well, front leg sweeps would never work...you discuss jumping on a very theoretical basis, listing what is possible and not...and you chose to keep only the bad aspects of it, whereas, on the matter of stepping, you keep only the good aspects. I'm sorry, but there are no safe action in a fight. Not even stepping. Not even punching (or counters wouldn't exist). Invoking the "skilled fighter" to dismiss jumping is equally pointless as it would be from me to evoke him/her to dismiss stepping or punching, on a theoretical point of view.
That is why I think the comment is a bit unfair.

I totally agree to the fact that in mid-air, you have no other direction to go but to where you jumped to. And that, indeed, can be used by a skilled opponent. However this is the whole point of the jump kick: to make it harder to him. In the air, you still have several options for you, you can kick at different levels, and choose to either kick early, or delay the kick. Provided you are skilled and tricky enough, I garanty it's not that easy countering a jump-kick (unless, of course, by entering a sterile "if you do this, then I can do that" type of argument, which we all know is pointless and endless).
You don't just jump around waiting for your opponent to catch you. You jump to make things harder to him...

Anyway, we both have diverging opinions on the matter and it's fine...
On the topic of jump kicks, 7* said it perfectly: don't make it a habit. However, I say myself "don't dismiss them at once as useless/not worthy".

[dnc101]

CP, you're correct that arguing what if or yeah but all day would be pointless. You like the jumping kicks, I don't, and we've stated our reasons. Everyone else will make up theit own minds regardless what we think.

I would like to talk about this problem with redirection or conversion of moves. If you are loose and aware you can redirect anything you start. You can change a strike into a block and a block to a strike. A punch can convert to a finger technique. A blocked punch can convert to an elbow strike without interrupting its motion if the block lands distal to the elbow. A properly thrown roundhouse will easily convert to a hook. Foot maneuvers can be changed or redirected similarly if you are loose and move in ballance. We train that a strike does not tighten up untill contact is made. Some moves, like the jumping kicks, require the type of commitment you are talking about to carry them through. I tend to avoid those moves or strikes, as that commitment can be used against you. Not saying they don't work, just that they are risky.

By the way, if someone pulls the seat out from under you, you fall because either you were unaware or you had passed the point where you were able to recover. Sort of like over commiting when striking or kicking. If he miss times it, you will recover and not fall. Then remember to stay loose and you can kick his butt.;)

[wall]

Jump kicks if done correctly have amazing momentum and power, and will do considerable damage. The problem is choosing the right time to do them, and possessing sufficient speed of execution and technical ability to avoid getting in trouble (vulnerable position/missing target/etc). I've used jump roundhouse and tornados often but have only felt confident to do so after I had been training for 5-6 years: to deploy such potentially hazardous techniques in combat you have to be able to deploy them perfectly at maximum speed with no preparation, no loading, and with pinpoint accuracy. Something that takes a l-o-n-g time. That's why if in doubt better stick to simpler less dangerous techs.

[rogue]

From experience at least the linear ones can work. I've been hit by them and used them during sparring so I guess they could be used on the street. It also depends upon what means by jump. We tend to jump into the opponent from fairly close range so the opponent doesn't have much time to do anything. I've used the jump to cover distance while the kick (side or front kick) either connects or gets the opponent moving back. You also have to have a very good follow up strategies for if you hit, miss or you both crash into each other.

Times I've found not to use a jump kick is when your opponent tends to circle.

While they wouldn't be my first choice of a technique I'd use on the street I'd use one if the need and opportunity come up.

[Mr Punch]

Used one in chi sao in wing chun for a laugh once, front kick to the head, jumping backwards. The other guy was way better than me, and we always used to throw in non-WC stuff, but it took him seriously by surprise and I had to pull it to his chest. Very effective. Tried it again in sparring a WCer and it had a similar effect. Tried it against a karateka, he sidestepped and kicked my ass. Won't try it again.

:D