Technique names in Chinese please?

[phoenix-eye]

Hi

At recent Shaolin workshop Sifu Shi Yanzi (Songshan shaolin) was giving us a bit of a boll0cking about not using the chinese terms for kicks such as side kick, turning kick, stances (ma bu etc) and so on.

The problem is many of the terms he used were not the same as what we use.

In our southern system a "side kick" is "warng tak". He used a completely different term.

Can anyone offer some chinese names (with pronounciations) for basic hand, kick, blocks and stances?

Cheers.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[SifuAbel]

Tell him to learn english and stop being such a wanker.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[houerh]

Your words display a feeble and disrespectful attitude for a martial artist. The man asks a legitimate question and you insult his Sifu. You must have a high regard for the martial arts.
Do you give your students the same advice? Or is that how they address you?
Either way, that is not the advice of a Sifu.


Houerh.

[SifuAbel]

Oh, go put your monk robes on. You humorless git.

Mr. Miyagi went that-a-way----------------->

So some snob of a teacher requires you to learn his dialects version of his styles version of the name of a sidekick? What kind of bullocks is that? Call it a freakin' sidekick and be done with it. I have always had low regard for those that insist on haggling over words instead of just teaching the **** lesson. Why do we have to learn all these different versions of the name of a sidekick? It's a sidekick!!!!! Chinese isn't some special formula, it's a language. Learning a different name for it every week won't make it any different. If anything is unbecoming of a sifu it is to undermine a student with this kind of rubbish. Students don't come to me to learn how to be chinese, they come to me to learn about fighting.

I see you have Tai Tzu in your profile, which branch? This should be interesting

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[SifuAbel]

Who is your teacher?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[phoenix-eye]

Gotta laugh at that first reply.... I felt like it at the time believe me....

But...

The sifu wasn't being over the top about it - he just said that as it was a chinese system we should be familiar with the chinese terms being used. The only problem was that his terms were different from ours.

I don't have a real problem with it at all. Actually kind of interested in chinese anyway

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[charliec]

The names used at Shaolin for all the basic movements (as far as I know) are on thousandbuddha.org under Technique

For those entering the
realm of Wu with a mind
on Ch'an, the silent
smile awaits them. -
Ch'au-Lu

www.thousandbuddha.org (http://www.thousandbuddha.org)

[SifuAbel]

It's the same movement in any language. I give my students terms in both chinese and english. And only because it's sometimes easier to remeber or say. Ma bu is easier than saying horse stance. But the important thing is the message not the messenger.

My responsibility as a teacher is:
1) Learn HOW to communicate with the student then create a rapport
2) Understand the students needs
3) Teach the NEEDED information
Anything beyond this is purely excess. And, subject to all the trappings and flags that adorn the hall.

Protocol would suggest that the visiting instructor should try to use terms that everone understands locally. Most teachers at seminar will take a concensus of the student body and respect their former knowledge including movement names. Here he didn't meet the burden for points one and two. Not because the terms were in chinese but that the terms be in his particular dialect in the names that are unique to his style when there are plenty of common tern. You said you hand another name for them, is "warng tak" not chinese?


If you were studying in his school as his student exclusivly then that would be a different story. But this is about a seminar.

Think about it, side kick, "warng tak", "La Patada" whats the real difference? Imagine for a moment this fighting style was spanish and not chinese. You'd be saying the terms in spanish. Why? Because how else is that spanish man going to say sidekick in spanish? He's going to say "La Patada" and add a descriptive. It still means sidekick no matter what language its in. Ö

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[houerh]

In traditional Chinese Arts, the true Chinese terms often hold a deeper, more significant meaning, than it's english version - much meaning is lost in translation. One would think that by learning and understanding these terms one would gain a better insight into the art. But hey, why try to gain a better understanding,when you can take the **** out of it? This always comes from those who teach students how to fight, and while I do have a fondness for combat, I am learning an ART.
As for my teacher, he and my Tai Tzu branch have nothing to do with this conversation and I wouldn't disrespect him by bringing his name up to someone as petty as you
Pheonix-Eye, do you know which dialect you are looking for?

Houerh.

[Xebsball]

You can say chute lateral for side kick.

-------------------------
I am the great grandmaster and Soke of RoShamBo south park style.
"I kick you in the nuts as hard as I can and then you kick me in the nuts as hard as you can."

http://www.kolumbus.fi/kick/downloads/videos/roshambo.htm

[nanwu]

Hey, Hou-erh,
I see that you finally found the board, so what do you think?
How are things? Please give my kindest regards to your Sifu.
I hear that you have been keeping rather busy. Say - I hear that you are coming over here soon, I hope this means that we can get together again and do some training. I am still nursing the bruises from last time, Ha, Ha, Ha.
Is your Sifu coming over too? Thanks for the video, it was very helpful, it cleared up a lot of problems. I found that the form was very similar to the San Zhan in my branch. The internal long form is a bit different though, the movements are relatively similar but the basics are slightly different. You did explain to me the difference between the branches, but I seem to have mislaid the information, could you please e-mail me them again. Thanks.


Nanwu. :)

[SifuAbel]

What a load of horse hockey.
"deeper meaning".

Primarily wing chun and just getting into your first tai tzu set. I know what I need to know.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Stumblefist]

"(What a load of horse hockey.
"deeper meaning".)"

Agreed. I like to learn chinese an chinese terminology, but as an optional intellectual pursuit.
Aikido dojos usually follow as Sifuabel suggested. First they get on with it, i.e. practice: the higher belts are more and more required to learn the terms in Japanese.
But that's the teacher'st perogative but i would prefer if Westerners brought it into their own native language whatever it is.
So burdening beginners and at a seiminar is not too appropriate.
I am fully aware that some idioms are untranslateable and some terms have historical associations. Using, for example english, we will develop our own untranslateable idioms and associate meanings.
But more the sifu said it was a "chinese system" so they had to learn chinese, he meant chinese-owned, not chinese-derivved nor just respect for chinese derivation but "owned."
I got that in Taiwan. One coach said he would refuse to answer any questions from me until i learned both Manarin and Taiwanese dialects. Fortunately he wasn't the teacher who said to me, and everybody else, that kungfu WAS the language. Because we practiced together and did the same movements as each other we would think the same and feel the same. So he called me a brother. But this language issue is a deep prejudice.
Kungfu is a BODY art, it is not a language art. It is universal to all human bodies and all human beings.
Using our own language is one way to disempower racial "owners" and make the ART our own. It is a natural process, the more westerners practice they will still respect where the art came from but they will make it their own and empower themselves.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[houerh]

I am very sorry that you can not grasp the "deeper meaning", I feel for you, really I do.
As for me being primarily Wing Chun, you know what you need to know?????????????
What is your point? Do you have a point at all?

Nanwu,
everything is good, I have just got back from Sifu Shen, learnt a new form, his Northern leg work is really something. I'll send you the information in the e-mail. I'm off now to practice my Wing Chun. HA, ha,ha,ha,ha.

Houerh.
:D

[houerh]

Stumblefist,
I agree, I do not believe that you MUST learn another language, but you must have respect. Calling somebodies teacher a wanker is not having respect.

Houerh.

[Stumblefist]

Hou-erh
Fair enough.
But if everybody was too polite, this forum would get pretty boring. ;)

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[GeneChing]

Here's my two fen. Learn the terms for all the moves in all the languages. Never reject any learning - that is the path of ignorance. The more languages you command, the more people you can communicate with, and the deeper your understanding. Surely this is challenging (and somewhat hypocritical from me since I barely have command of English) but if you're one to shy away from challenges you've entered the wrong art and the wrong forum. Find that polite forum - something like needlepoint.
There's a lot of high yield info in the other language terms, especially with the Chinese arts, where the names are so poetic.

Been trying to translate wanker - the best I came up with is shou jiao - which is the verb for hand job.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[SifuAbel]

Gene well said

stumble good point

Ho- HE WAS A WANKER!!!!!!!!

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[phoenix-eye]

It's always more fun when the politeness goes.

Thanks for the Chinese version of "hand job" Gene - should come in useful with the girls down Chinatown on a Friday night.

:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :p

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[phoenix-eye]

Thanks for the tip Charlie - good site with all the information I was looking for.

This forum is actually pretty invaluable sometimes.

Best of luck - I'm off for a Shou Jiao.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[hasayfu]

As Gene says, learning the language can open doors for you especially if you cross train with other lines. If you have one Sifu and only learn from your direct Si-hing/di then no need to learn. But if you meet others, sometimes knowing their terms helps the knowledge transfer.

Also, as Gene states, chinese is usually poetic. So while I don't know what Wanker is in Chinese, Shou Jiao probably won't do it. No where near the required imagery. :-)

The closest I can get is the Hong Kong (cantonese) phrase for wanking would be "Da Fey Kee" Translated that means "hit flying plane" I'll leave as an exercise for the reader as to why.

Not sure if Taiwan or PRC would use the same slang. Probably not.

[houerh]

You see it does have a deeper meaning, "Da Fey Kee", "hit flying plane".
houerh

[Stumblefist]

Gene: "Da Feiji" = fly the plane.
"da dong" = man and woman, (it's too graphic.)
I know, i know too much. They should deport me.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[Stumblefist]

Gene: Not everybody is a blinking intellectual.
That solutions not good for everybody. Some people are just physical.
(This reminds me of the snares of qualifications' committees as in Turiyan's post.)

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[GeneChing]

I should clarify that I in no way want to imply that Shi Yanzi is a wanker. I've met him once and that was enough to know his power. I have great respect for him.

Now for the rest of you wankers...

phoenix-eye: Oh, there's lots more terms like that. for some reason, those terms and the martial arts terms are the only ones I seem to remember. Let us know before you next Chinatown visit.
hasayfu: Thanks for the contribution. Perhaps we should open a new thread on this. It seems pretty popular.
stumblefist: You mean wanking intellectual, don't you? How intellectual is it to remember the da dong? That's a great nick for someone...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[SifuAbel]

So he wanks with power. He wanks with amazing grip strength. He can break bricks with Da Dong, Iron rod kung. He'll could probably poke your eye out if you're not carefull. You can be a freakin martial god and still be a wanker. Geez, look at 80 % of the people here.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Stumblefist]

Gene, it's not like i have to strain my brain to remember. Actually i have no brain when it comes to women.
I said the opposite of what you seemed to understand in my post regarding intellectualism.

I think blinking is a softening of bleeding which comes from bloody which is worse to say in England than America.
So winkering might be a softening for wankering? I'm not too familiar with England's slang.
.....
Actually upon further "research":
"Da feiji" means "shoot the plane" (like with a bazooka.)
There is also "chui xiao" "play the flute."
And "Tui you" (push oil)
And "Luo guan" (something about a pipe or tube).
and "pin yu" savor the jade (for the woman.)
...
But these are really not "wanker" because they refer to a man and woman. I don't think there is "wanker" as an insult in chinese.
If only one person is involved it is "zi wei", (formal), "zi mo" (informal) and also "shou ying" and also "da shou chong" but there is not really the insult "wanker" or "J***-off" that i have yet found in Chinese.
There is "bian Tai" (change abnormal person)
and "gou diao" (dog something) = human animal.
There is also
"Wang Ba dan" (Turtle's egg) which probably is closer to the idea of "wanker"
There is also: "ben dan" or "huai dan" (stupid egg, bad egg) but these are soft.
.....
There is also "da bi", "Da Pao" (shoot cannon) ,"zuo ai" for making love.
...
You might encounter some of these terms if you go to the "JI Yuan" (chicken theatre) or "Li fa Yuan"(barber shop) or meet some "ji nu" (Chicken Girls).
or if you go courting girlfriends "pao nu" (respectable term for seeking/dating girlfriends).. ;)

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[GeneChing]

YOU ROCK!
:cool:

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[SifuAbel]

And with all those names, isn't the ultimate act the same?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Julian Dale]

You Sir are a wrist merchant !

Calling someone a wrist merchant instead of a wanker, which is of course low level gutter slang in England, is an insult depending on your tone of voice that people never know quite how to take.

You could also say "go forth and multiply" instead of F**ck off

The original post refers to a side kick as being "warng tak" from what I understand this spelling and pronounciation is from the lau gar school of martial arts in England and is of cantonese origin. It may also not be 100% accurate as gondong wha to "tek" is to kick and not tak, a closer phoentic spelling might be Wha'ang tek for side kick. Where as Shi Yan Tzi is mainland chinese and therefore speaks Pu tong Wha or mandarin. Possible reason for the difference.

[This message was edited by Wong Ying on 10-03-01 at 02:55 AM.]

[SifuAbel]

A chinese teacher teaches two students the exact same side kick. One student learns the chinese name the other doesn't. The teacher still had to explain HOW to do it in english. Which student will have the better sidekick?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Ming the Merciless]

is the student african or european?

[Stumblefist]

"Can anyone offer some chinese names (with pronounciations) for basic hand, kick, blocks and stances?"

But now i remember...
Beijing Foreign Languages Press and/or Sports University Press (same guys who do all the Mainland Gov't Wushu books) has a book: dictionary/translator of Martial Art Terminolgy: English/chinese/pinyin. I saw it in a HK bookstore.
Might be easier to scour the bookstores than to get a booklist from that company.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[SifuAbel]

lets just call them blue students. not to offend any one group.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[hasayfu]

That's the answer to Sifu Abels question.

Now extend the question. The teacher teaches more then just the name of one technique. Both students travel to China to meet their Si-Gung. Si-Gung speaks no english nor does anyone at the school. Which student will have an easier time absorbing any instructions?

[SifuAbel]

Apparently their sifu wasn't enough if they had to seek the sigung. I find that to be a matter of ego on the students part to find the "ultimate master".
"Lets go to china and find Mr. Miyagi" What a waste. There is no need to go to the sigung if your sifu is competent.

Weak.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[phoenix-eye]

SifuAbel - isn't there a bit of hypocrisy in your username?

If calling a side kick its chinese name is wrong - why do you use Sifu? Why not call yourself InstructorAbel?

;)

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[Stumblefist]

"Now extend the question. The teacher teaches more then just the name of one technique. Both students travel to China to meet their Si-Gung. Si-Gung speaks no english nor does anyone at the school."
......
Lets extrapolate this situation into the not too distant future.
....
"Both students travel to SLOVAKIA to meet their Si-Gung. Si-Gung speaks no english nor chinese nor does anyone at the school."
......
I guess they will both be better off learning kungfu instead of languages.
Even now the Si-gung could be anywhere, including Minneapolis.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-05-01 at 02:10 AM.]

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-05-01 at 02:23 AM.]

[SifuAbel]

Ha good try.

Call me what you want. Like I said before, I teach both in the chinese and english terms. But, it isn't my main concern. My main concern is that I communicate with my students. Frankly I couldn't care less if they knew all the names in chinese or not; as long as they could do the move. Most have trouble remembering the chinese name but have no trouble with the english. To them the names hold no "special meaning". To them, a "ma bo" is a horse stance and thats because thats what I told them it meant. They don't know chinese, how could they know? If my students have to find some secret code in the terms to be able to do a "ma bo" correctly then I'm not doing my job properly. My "job" is not to enforce the "chinese" way. My job is to teach the kung fu, nothing more. If I say "ma bo" its because its easier. Is it really needed? No. Would the stance be any different? No. Would I have taught it the same way? Yes. Some of these "descrpitive" terms had political significance 1000 years ago and were not even used to describe the act. Why should I bother with dead politics?

Also if I had a visiting teacher that did not try to adhere to what the students have come accustomed to as far as language(that means the cantonese terms or at least their english counterparts) then I simply will not have them there. It is an insult to me and to my line. And I would take it as an undermining of my students.

Stumble said it best, the instuctor was not simply implying that kung fu is chinese derived but also chinese owned. I think we have come too far to play that game; as much as some would like to see it continue. Ask yourself this question, are all the trappings and flags that come with the fighting knowledge there to help the student or just to glorify the circumstance of its birth? I can understand that things that belong to one ethnicity or another holds special significance to them. But this is more an issue of preserving some ethnic identity and national pride rather than the actual teaching of the body of knowledge.

I hate to break it to the world but Kung fu ceased being strickly chinese the moment a non-chinese person learned the art. As far as I'm concerned it is now as much a Cuban art as it was Chinese. So from now on I am Maestro Abel. We do "patadas" and "punos" and "garras" and "posisiones" and "palmas" . When we spar we are "peliando". When we do forms we are performing rutinas. And when we do "rutinas" they will be indistinguishable from your forms. And judging by our performance in competition the last ten years or so, we will still look better than you. When we are "peliando" we will still kick your but.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[This message was edited by MaestroAbel on 10-05-01 at 02:19 AM.]

[SifuAbel]

If the above were not so, then Bruce lee had no business doing the cha cha.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[azwingchun]

It's funny I had this same conversation with one of my students not to long ago. She was asking what a certain word meant from a Wing Chun site was, and to be honest I had never heard it used before, in fact I couldn't tell you what the word was now if you asked me. I tend to teach in a mixed way, the terms I use are the basic terms, whether I know them or not (ex: I will say double frontal Gum sau and not seung jeung gum sau), I think that's it? I told her that I teach with the words I was taught, and that even if I knew all the exact terminology (which seems to be slightly different from school to school) I don't speak Cantonese and probably don't say it exactly correct anyway. I gave her an example of a video on Wing Chun that I purchased several years ago, and the Chinese terms he used had a Texan accent (since he is from Texas) to it and I am sure this is similar to a Chinese speaking person would feel if he/she heard me use a Chinese term. I am sure that with my American accent it isn't completely correct anyway....LOL. Though I am not opposed to learning the terminology. Though I might add, I do not feel knowing terminology or not makes you any better or worse than the next guy. ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

My Sifu was from Brazil and he doesn't speak chinese at all, his sifu did but barely(he was from Brazil to) Now I can already here alot of people go ugh 3rd generation out of china he must suck. Well since we know of more people that are Brazilian that know this paticular style of shaolin kungfu would it then be Brazilian? Yes when Brazilians practice it, it is chinese when a chinese practices it and it is american when an american practices it. The chinese names to them are simple, to them Mabu means the same thing that horse stance means to us. You see alot of MA schools teaching students the language of the country the art came from but to me this is just for novelty purposes, ability in the art is more important

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[SifuAbel]

At least I'm not alone in my views. :cool:

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[hasayfu]

You guys are so polar. You asked a question and I answered it. I gave another question and you change it.

No one here has said that you HAVE to learn the native language of your style in order for you to learn you style. What has been said is that choosing to ignore it is your choice and can slow or completely impede further progress. The orignal poster merely asked if anyone knew the names (which BTW, no one has given him). Then he gets a lecture on the "evils" of learning in a second language and how he should ignore the guy for even suggesting it.

Maestro Abel, I can't tell if you are serious or just being argumentative. Why ever visit your Si-Gung? Respect is the first thing that comes to mind. What about going to see others within your Kung Fu family? Why even bother to be on this forum since you can get everything you ever need from your immediate teacher and fellow students?

To stumblefist, I don't get your point? Just because he moves to Slovakia or Minneapolis it means he forgets his native tongue? And yes, if the native tongue of my lineage is other then english or chinese, I should learn that language too.

I'm not trying to stereo-type but are you saying because YOU are in the US everyone should learn to speak English to you? In Europe and Asia it is very common to be fluent in more then one language and familiar in many more.

As for learning kung fu vs. language, they are not mutually exclusive. You can learn the most by speaking the terms as you practice so it motivates both. For context, I'm 3rd gen American and grew up only speaking English. Heck, I used to tease the "FOBs" for not grasping English while they have moved to the US.

It's only been in the last 8 years (well after college) when I've traveled that I've discovered that English is useful but you get much ****her in relationships when you can communicate in other tongues. I also appreciate anyone who can speak english as a non-native language more.

I wish someone had really instilled that in me growing up. That's why I get on this high horse. This is about kung fu. A skill earned from hard work.

[SifuAbel]

Ethnic identity and natioanl pride, you can't escape it.

Not knowing chinese can only impede my learning if the teacher is FOB as you say.

My si gung speaks english, I still don't need chinese except to humor the trads out there. If your teacher can't teach you what you need to know, the si gung won't do much better. It's still a student ego trip to "seek out the grand ultimate". Like they are something special beyond their teacher. Chinese to a non speaking student is a novelty. If just more fun to say "yat, yee, sam" than "one two three".

Why am I on this forum? Did I come on this forum to learn kung fu? That would be sad..

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Stumblefist]

"To stumblefist, I don't get your point? Just because he moves to Slovakia or Minneapolis it means he forgets his native tongue? And yes, if the native tongue of my lineage is other then english or chinese, I should learn that language too."
.......
Yes, Hasayfu you have trouble seeing it.In the future the si-gung will not have MOVED to Slovakia or whatever, he will BE Sloviakian or whatever, like his father and his father's father before him the more into the future we get.
You're confusing language issues with assumptions of ownership. Ownership is changing with propagation into the world. BJJ was once JJJ.
I really don't think it's necessary to lose the chinese language/terminology. I hope it's not. Just a question of how to use it or attitude. Some words have been adopted into English by usage. "Sifu" may be one of them. I don't think it's necessary to get "politically correct" about the terminology.
...
Anyway, not a great deal of language is needed to practice CMA. I have praciced in Asia in CMA society when my knowledge of chinese was at a very low level. It didn't matter much. I prefer non-verbal teaching. Of course there were lectures, dicussions and fine points but that's another story. I don't want to go into a general theory of learning here.
Requiring students to learn all foreign terminology like Aikido societies do is practicing ownership. It is formalized into their tests.
......
Actually, i heard chinese on the mainland and taiwan refer to "HK Kungfu" and "American Kungfu".
..
The original poster said he was satisfied with WWW.thousandbuddha.org (http://WWW.thousandbuddha.org) to answer his questions. I can't raise that server.
I found: www.martialarts.com/dictionary.wushu/indexst.htm (http://www.martialarts.com/dictionary.wushu/indexst.htm)
This dictionary is indexed by Pinyin with english translations. There is a search function for entering English but it is a little cumbersome. And still...I can't find translation for "sidekick" either.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-06-01 at 10:31 AM.]

[Kung Lek]

words are not the teaching of Martial Arts.

Aristotle said -"That which we learn, we learn by doing" -

This is most true of any martial arts training.

communication in kung fu training can be almost entirely tactile. the need for words is most definitely secondary to the tasks at hand when it comes to martial arts of any kind.

chinese teachers have no "deeper" knowledge of martial arts and haven't for many many years.
Those who practice their art diligently and with Intent hold the knowledge.
If they give it to you, then you have it also and it is your duty to maintain the knowledge and honour your teacher and art by doing so.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[SifuAbel]

Cool,

I've got the Lek on my side!

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Stumblefist]

I finally got through to www.thousandbudda.com (http://www.thousandbudda.com)
Nice information
......
Side kick is "Chua Tui".
...
I don't know what he meant as "turning kick"? ...tornado kick?

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[SifuAbel]

so much for deeper meaning

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[South Paw]

When I went to Hong Kong, for the first time in 1980, to learn Hung Gar, my knowledge of Chinese (Cantonese) was limited to the words for the different techniques of Kung Fu. As my Sifu did not speak English this enabled me to communicate with him on the sets he was learning to me. It made learning a lot easier.

Later in learning the words for the different techniques there was a great deal of poetry involved. I would not miss this. And sometimes it's hard to replace those words for dry technical terms, as sidekick, etc.

South Paw

[SifuAbel]

With all respect, I'd like to pose another question or five. Did you really NEED to go to china to learn Hung Gar? And, did learning the term make your sidekick any better? What part of the poetry gave you a deeper insight to performing a sidekick? If so, then is your sidekick of better quality than your american counterparts?

Isn't it, afterall, just a descriptive?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Kung Lek]

ok

the words for techs and forms are nice to know in a historical sense and because much of the information originally came from asia, it is good to acknowledge that these arts were so well developed within those cultures.

However, my experience with direct transmission of martial art from master to student is that when learner you do exactly what your teacher shows you to do and to accept and work on the corrections that your tecaher gives you.

after time the set is developed further by practice and correction or the refinement process.

master will teach student to fit the form to his body. the only difference in performance will come from body shape of the two, master and student but the essence and body mechanics and principles behind each movement should be the same.

after a time of this type of ingranation, applications are shown and these are practiced, some applications can be harmful if practiced on a partner willing or otherwise. the warning against this comes from the teacher without much "poetry" but more out of urgency for the student to know this.

and that can all be done up to the warning without uttering a single word.

also consider, exchanges and refinements in entire systems and styles were made frequently over time. sometimes from one person to another without strong understanding of each others language. But the body and it's mechanical attributes are universal even though language is not.

sadly, the western paradigm is one of the causes of this breakdown in understanding of martial arts and it can be directly attributed to "language".

but if you watch, then try to do, then do, you have learned. over time and with a lot of practice you will develop the art that has been taught to you.

If you do not do, and only postulate and think about it, your body will not remember How to do it. Even though you may be a fountain of information in a linguistic sense and be very convincing in regards to historical knowledge, it does not speak to developed skill through hard work over time. ;)

or, what if the great master was mute? what then?

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[South Paw]

To Sifu Abel:

- Hung Gar was not available in Europe at that time, as far as I can recollect.
- I already had a (back) side kick that made me vice champion all style in 1974 and European champion all style in 1975 (IBF).
-"Looking in the Mirror" gave me a better insight in myself. Hope you know these techniques yourself. LOL.

South Paw

[hasayfu]

To answer the question, did going to china improve my sidekick (or kung fu), directly no, indirectly yes.

Seems like a cop out answer but as i said before, only practice will give you better technique. Did I need to go to china to get the understanding I have now? No. In fact, going to China (Asia actually) showed me just how much my sifu really taught me.

On the otherhand, visiting and listening to the old stories and fine points made me see things that I had overlooked. Sure I may have eventually come back and found out these things without any verbal communications but having the communication probably saved me months if not years in heading down the right path.

This is especially true at the higher levels with internal aspects. Externally, it's hard to see the difference. Words like toss vs. push and twist vs. spin. I know this because a si-hing who went that didn't speak the language came back thinking one thing but I was taught the same thing with a different emphasis.

See we both had done that technique many times from our Sifu but Si-bak highlighted an aspect we overlooked. After the realization, we see that Sifu has taught us that but with the millions of other things we are learning, that one was misunderstood until we heard it from an outsider of the kwoon. (hope that makes sense)

But besides that, learning kung fu terms has opened the doors with many martial artists. It has also opened the ART to me far more then a myoptic view from personal kwoon could ever had.

If you never plan to exchange with martial artists outside of your school or languge, then the chinese terms will do very little for you. But remember, the if you decide to expand in this direction, your success will be determined by the effort you had put in thus far. Yuan Fen.

[Stumblefist]

"If you never plan to exchange with martial artists outside of your school or languge, then the chinese terms will do very little for you. But remember, the if you decide to expand in this direction, your success will be determined by the effort you had put in thus far. Yuan Fen."
...
Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe. Perhaps one can exchange more by speaking less.
------------------------------
Kung Lek: Really well said!

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[GeneChing]

"Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe. Perhaps one can exchange more by speaking less." - That's a funny thing to say on an Internet forum. I like it.

Why wouldn't you want to learn the Chinese Terms? It doesn't take that much effort, does it? Not nearly as much as learning the technique itself. To me, learning the term is the easy part.

I can never accept the denial of knowledge, especially when is serves to bridge between different cultures.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[hasayfu]

"Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe." So true. And this is good?

Kung Lek, we usually agree and in fact I'm not arguing because if you don't choose to learn the language, it won't lessen your art but this statement, "watch, then try to do, then do, you have learned. over time " What if what you "watch" is not what was shown? Over time you learn the wrong thing. Fantasy? Then why can't you learn from videos? Sure you can get so far but there are things you will miss or worse, misunderstand. Of course language doesn't make you the all powerful master but why throw out a valuable learning tool?

Language "can" open up your art. It's like the many immigrants who come to the Americas but choose not to learn the native language. They can proceed with a satisfactory quality of life but what has been closed to them due to language barriers?

And as Gene said, it's not that hard to learn. In the end, it's up to you. I'm not trying to convert anyone but do want to give food for thought for those who may think about learning the language and wonder why.

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't think this is about the language itself anymore guys but more how people feel the need to go to the "motherland" to be good. I have never been to asia but when I practiced capoeria i went to brasil. While there I did notice I got better and I was only there 2 weeks. When I got back I thought to myself why were they better than us and why did I gain more in 2 weeks there than in a month here? The answer was really simple, competition among more skilled practitioners. If I am right people feel like they improve tons when they go to Shaolin for short periods, is it because the Chinese are superior at kungfu? Not really, it's because that area has thousands of practitioners who are at a constant competition to be the best. Even those who don't want to be the best(doubt there are any) are forced to work hard just to survive. If you have that enviorment here than you don't really need to go to China to advance your skills, I would like to go but for the cultrual experience. I don't have access to lessons in Chinese does that mean my Kungfu will never be any good? My sifu didn't learn and he turned out great also his teacher trained in Taiwan for 3 years and learned lots of kungfu includeing light body training but could barely speak the language so it is not the top of my prioritys

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Kung Lek]

hasayfu, true, your point of "watching not what is being shown" is a good point.

but still, that can be corrected on the spot with hysical and tactile adjustment and generally in martial arts, that is exactly what is done with a student.

The student is most responsible for his/her learning in many ways.
Often people improve by going to the source because this verifies and validates what they may have alreday been considering. Also, it is further learning and further fortification of the endeavour.

So, yes, the names and the verbiage surrounding a martial style or system does indeed lend itself to teh intellectual understanding of an art.

On the other hand, language is not the only learning style that we have and seeing, doing take prominence more often than not.

how many excellent kung fu players have you met that can "do" it very well, but have said "I can't remember whatr this is called, but it is this. At that point, they attach the common language to the technique and show you how to do it. making adjustments physically.

words can also help you as a practitioner remember sequences of sets you have been physically taught, ditto on the videos.

but still, "doing" is the most important aspect to learning a martial art, or anything. even speaking :D

I am not against it, I have just observed a few people who can speak quite well about chinese martial arts but when it comes to demonstrating, it isn't there. so I don't attach a lot of imporatnace personally to the names of things in cases such as that.

Kung Fu is done differently from school to school, never mind country to country. THere are masters here in the west who are very well qualified in Kung Fu and training methodoligies of chinese martial arts.
Some of them do not speak the language well at all and still manage to teach those who do not speak their language.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[friday]

Sorry I have to disagree with some of u. The reason why there are names to different techniques is partly as a formula. When learning kung fu forms there are names for the whole set. This act as a means of remembering each technique. Sometimes these formulas are written in text. A traditional kung fu practitioner might forget the form etc. by looking at the book and reading it it will be easier to remember the move.
it acts in much the same way as ppl use videos now. One might now say that this purpose has been negated by a means to record the moves etc on video etc. However, My sifu is teaching me the poetic names out of my insistence in learning "everything".

Another reason why names could be important is an internal technique that i learnt. the reasoning behind the flow of chi (which i feel) in that technique was explained to me by my sifu. The name actually is given because of this reasoning. anyway its hard to explain without telling u how to do the technique.

regardless of all this...i believe that the 'poetic' terms may in your style actually have usefullness as a learning tool. for ease of comprehension for your students who do not know or understand chiense is perhaps to translate it.
if u know the chinese terms for it.

regards,

888

[Stumblefist]

I keep thinking the topic is finished and it pops back up again. It's got more life han i thought. I think Kung Lek had the most definitive words on physical learning.

"Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe. Perhaps one can exchange more by speaking less." - That's a funny thing to say on an Internet forum. I like it."

It's not words but their usage, not travel but the traveller. Since it's not immediately obvious? it will take some explaining, but Kung Lek already said the second part well.
outoftime.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[GeneChing]

Here's a true-life adventure that happens regularly here at our office, at least twice a month. It requires a little set up so bear with me.
TC Media, which publishes Kungfu Qigong, is actually a branch of Tiger Claw, wholesale only distributors of martial arts gear. Tiger Claw is the hidden tiger of martial arts, since only resellers buy from us directly and we frequently put their school name on our gear. This means we work with a lot of school logos on a daily basis. Our graphics department can work with designs, create new ones or restore old ones, and make shirts, uniforms, sparring gear, mugs, medals, you name it. Our office does maybe 1 to 6 logos a day.
Anyway, we regularly get submissions like "Please write Da Fey Kee Kung Fu in Chinese characters" and neither the clients nor us have a clue what it means. "Uh, it translates into flying fist... or something like that." We have native Mandarin and Cantonese speakers on staff, as well as seasoned veterans of the martial arts world, not to mention visiting masters everyday who are always happy to help, and invariably we still have these problems. Even if it's in pinyin, which it never is, it's really hard to figure out the characters sometimes. It's weird to me - People don't even know the name of there schools - names that they bear proudly but naively.
Now the intriguing part - this only happens in the Chinese styles, never Korean or Japanese (and Tiger Claw does far more business with those communities - we have a full staff of Korean speaking phone operators, but then if they speak this is not a problem.)

Chinese is a challenging language, but it is a part of kungfu culture. When I studied Kendo, I had to learn some Japanese. When I studied fencing, I had to learn some Italian, French and German. When I studied Yoga, I had to learn some sanskit. By each of those disciplines, it was required. Now that I study Kungfu, it's not required, probably because the translation is more challenging and chinese styles are less formally organized. Personally, I think it's a weakness in our style when compared to the others. And like I've said before, learning some chinese is hard, but not that hard, not as hard as a long horse stance.

BTW, I'm taking applications for the Da Fey Kee Kungfu Kwoon - I'm sure there are plenty of interested people on this forum... ;)

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[Shaolindynasty]

I see the benifit, and this is one community that could definatly use some organization of any kind. I would have to say though on a more personal level it may not mean as much, after all I believe martial arts is an understanding and cannot be understood through anything less than experiencing it. For instance if you are like me and place chan theroy and martial arts as the same than it could be that you don't need words at all to reach "enlightenment"

New classes New online Catalog
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[honorisc]

""Da feiji" means "shoot the plane" (like with a bazooka.) "

To ejaculate (hard).

"There is also "chui xiao" "play the flute."

Mastebation or the action of the male member during sexual intercourse.

"And "Tui you" (push oil)"

To ejaculate.

"And "Luo guan" (something about a pipe or tube)."

Sexual intercourse.

"and "pin yu" savor the jade (for the woman.)
..."

If you can't be with the one you love; love the one you're with- from a song.

Relevat, yet different.

If people were told Horse Riding stance, instead of transliteration, horse step or translation horse stance.That might be significant. It seems there are at least some people whodon't like to be handled (tactile) or Do without knowing why or what it's for or proof that it works.

You all seemed to have worked some things out here. Hopefully, I am not saying anything.

Even those who have hypocracy don't necessarily know how much of it they have...I doubt that the word Form is standard classical Chinese. Rutinas=Forms= (whatever the Chinese (whatever dialect)is)

If you learn the Chinese, the action is the translation, not a native language. You learned the Chinese to call the action. You defeat the purpose to call it in non-Chinese.

I could read poetry and see names of techniques or moves. The words in between these tellme insights to the techniques. I could also tell you a good combination if we know the same terminology. Learnthe names does make for the better martialartist. If you haven't gone over the technique in some way, you might not understand the wealth of information you have.

The technique: "Take a Crap in the Bushes," translate that into whatever language and mostly all are going to assume the same position.

"Baby Pooting" Some will squinch their face, somewill just smile and some might give a chuckle. This is a bad name, because there is too much variation. But whether you ride a motorcycle or a horse all would do a general horse-riding stance--ma bu(or whatever dialect you use~).

"Cloud Hands," might be better descriptive of the move to call it, "Brush the Reeds, Stroke the Water." But if you don't swim in a pond or go frogging (frog catching) this wouldn't make sense to you.

It is cultural which can be helpful to know more than you think you'll need, in this ever mixing life.

People like to be remembered. So Respect for those who've passed. Learn their terms/concepts and when you make some use terms your studnts would associate to it. Also remane the old stuff but always present the old name so that it can be traced--consider it like treating a Copyright.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Stumblefist]

No! No-know
ALL of the folowing mean hand-job with 2 people (man and woman) invloved or involved :).
"Da feiji"
"chui xiao"
"Tui you" (push oil)"
"And "Luo guan" (something about a pipe or tube)."
-------------------
except this which we sometimes refer to as "muff-diving".
"pin yu" savor the jade (for the woman.)
------------
and of course lets not forget
"Ji Jian" "chicken rape" (greek style).
...
I hope you guys don't go to the chinatown and order the wrong dish. :D :D :D

"Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah...
This is the end, My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

[Kung Lek]

Mind you, it would really help if I could "read" chinese well. :D

All these books are really, really, really sloooooooooooowwwwww for me to decipher.
:D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[JasBourne]

Da Fey Kee - hey, I think I studied at that mcKwoon once! ;)

[Yuen]

Your sifu's name sounds like a Mandarin name, so are you sure he is using "southern terms"? Just tell if he is using some of the the following stance terms: sei ping ma, ding ji ma, diu ma, quai ma, nau ma, tau ma, sie ma. Those are southern terms which are for example used in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut.

[lausan]

I think pheonix Eye practices Southern style (Lau Gar),hence the cantonese names. Shi Yanzi is indeed teaching in Manderin as he is originaly from Shaolin Temple.

Lausan :)

[phoenix-eye]

Well done Lausan - give that man a fat cigar!

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[Kung Lek]

phoenix eye, are you sure the Buddha even smoked cigars? ;)

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Hahahah, Gene, keep the application, I "hit the airplane" as seldom as possible hehehehehe
Really, da fei kei (whatever the spelling) means "to masturbate" in slang...Jas, still sure you studied at THAT kwoon?? :D