Kung Fu! Backwards or forwards?

[AndyM]

A while back systems of Kung Fu evolved as people found better methods for doing the same thing, or got beaten by people with better methods.

Seems to me that most Kung Fu people seem to be scrabbling backwards in an attempt at Historical recreation of something that 'might' have been, rather than learning and evolving. War-Gaming?

Look at JKD. Some of the guys are continually shifting and stripping things down to rebuild them much the same way as early Kung Fu people did. Yet some JKD guys have been caught up in trying to recreate what Bruce did or Inosanto did 20 years ago.

Where are we going to be in 20 years?

Still trying to remember stuff other people learned a thousand years ago for the "arts" sake, or working hard, progressing and doing Kung Fu?

You can train BJJ, or Thai, or Karate, or Tae Bo, but it will always be part of your Kung Fu won't it?

Tell me I'm wrong!

[diego]

i personnally believe the masses havent even matched up to good kungfu from even a hundered years ago...as one for instance does bjj guys have history of triads using thier methods in gangwars...two does anyone today even have that type of realistic experiance...something tells me my multiple opponnent techniques from my classical forms would be that much more potent if i had the type of experiance the original techniques creators had...wheras i havent foughten on tightclosed boats with 6 of my guys vs how many of thier guys and we all have hatchets...i imagine if i had that type of experiance all my socalled classical techniques would be trained beyond my current level of theoretical practise to i would prolly see these techs as just tricks wich from my prior experiance and understanding of the hardcore dimensions of gangfights would be viewed by me as formulas and solutions.

dont know if this is what you want to here, but i think many public kf peeps lets just say dont have the guts to fully understand the depths of kungfu...compared to say a oldschool head of a hardcore tong orginization who put together a system of kf for his soldiers based off his studies and lifeexperiance.


basically saying, imo these mma's think good but they havent worked out the total fight game yet, and many socalled kf men dont have a clue what thier doing and just like chirstians and the story of jesus the myths make them feel good...and just like we as people should strive to be like jesus and help the peeps and not kiss his butt...What does that really do for them.

sorry for the runon and incomplete sentence structure but this is how i feel!.
peace

[AndyM]

I think that's pretty fair Diego. When you have a Meat Cleaver coming at your skull with no recipe in mind then traditional forms are put in perspective somewhat.

I'm just playing 'Devils Advocate', and asking people to quesion themselves about these things.

[Felipe Bido]

You can train BJJ, or Thai, or Karate, or Tae Bo, but it will always be part of your Kung Fu won't it?

If you go to the meaning of the term "Kung Fu" (Skill over time) , then, yeah, everyone is doing Kung Fu.

[Sho]

Martial arts should be used as a dynamic tool, similar to different compounds used to create Linux (GNU). If you are skilled enough, you have the privilege to customize the source code to suit your own aims. I think this is very natural and people who seek efficiency integrate aspects from other fighting arts into their art. Therefore you should think openly and learn from other sources while focusing on your chosen art. On the other hand, if you think like Microsoft and don't allow any external customization, your field of wisdom on fighting will be very inadequate and limited compared to Linux, even though you still have your own strengths and advantages. Now, when talking about popularity Microsoft is the leader, because of its user-friendly applications for the general users. However, once you cross the border of built-in tools, you'll not be able to go beyond the border and supplement the tools yourself. In Linux you have the option to make unlimited add-ons as long as you have the appropriate skills to do so. We're not living in the 1800's anymore, but that doesn't mean that you should move on and change to a more modern art, instead you should try to seek for improvements yourself that could complement an art that is more "up to date". I mean, the Linux kernel itself still has the core principles in it even after ~30 years of development and improving - why should it be recreated right from the beginning to run according to modern standards when it can be freely customized (I'm not comparing it to Microsoft this time). Therefore also traditional martial artists should stick to their art and find improvements to stay "updated" if they feel it's necessary.

[ZIM]

I suppose it depends on what the focus of your training is.

If you train with an emphasis on techniques, then maybe you'll wind up with a hodgepodge.

If you train with an emphasis on 'gung' or skill, then the qualities of the KF should connect thru-out any techniques you do.

This is kind of the difference between learning 14 ways to throw a punch versus learning iron palm. If you've got iron palm down, then it shows up in any punch you do...that, to me, is kung fu going forwards.

Just changing techniques around is going backwards, IMO.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Stumblefist

Isn't it odd that the Japanese also have a history of warfare like the chinese, but they have a much more solid reputation for tried and true technique?
..
Why is that?

Ninja and samurai. seriously. They are icons that give people some frame of reference. Everyone knows about feudal japan and about samurai warriors. Not everyone knows about the royal bodyguards, or any other renowned sect of chinese fighters, except the shaolin monks, and well... look at the monks now.

Also, some people will judge soley based on what they perceive. When you see a wushu form, or even various other CMA forms, you can't see the power in them that you can see in a japanese kata.

[SevenStar]

I've seen 4 types of people in the martial arts

people who train hard

people who will always half arse train and still hope to obtain excellent skill

hippies

those that want the spirituality, history, philosophy, etc. primarily. These are the ones that are trying to "rediscover" kung fu, it's "secrets", etc. Things that they may never find because they are a totally different breed from their ancestors who fell into category 1.

These days, it seems like there are increasingly fewer people who fall into category 1.

As far as JKD goes, they are the ones who ould least of all fall into the re-creation category, IMO. They aren't trying to recreate what bruce did, they are carrying on his ideal - evolution. Before the UFC era, JKD propenents preached trapping, jun fan kickboxing, etc. Now they also enthuse grappling. By constantly stripping, they are able to stick with basics and train them - it's those basics that they repeatedly train that they will use in a fight anyway.

as far as where kung fu will be in 20 years, my guess is in the same place they are now, for the most part, as it seems to be the most resistant to change and evolution.

[Sho]

The reason for people not being familiar with Chinese "history of warfare" (that Stumblefist and SevenStar were discussing) is because China was basically closed all the way until President Nixon's visit. Westerners' knowledge of Chinese culture was very limited until then, which is still affecting much of the uncovered and less apparent aspects of Chinese culture. But we're getting there; popular contemporary movies such as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon convey the yet unrevealed parts of Chinese culture to the West.

[MightyB]

Bruce Lee was a farce. People worship him, why? Did he ever really do anything other than act? He clung to legit champions and took credit for everything. He has never earned any real legitimacy and people stick to hearsay and conjecture to try and back up any of his claims. His methodoligy was all wrong. It's not classical kung fu. He promoted values that are against everything that a good martial artist should strive for. It's like the ol' if I fight a grappler, I'm going to scratch, pull hair, and bite. Has anybody else here heard of blood born pathogens? Do you really want to bite and draw blood on a person who could possibly be carrying hepatitis or HIV? And, is it necessary or a symbol of being a good martial artist to cripple, blind, or kill some drunk in a meaningless bar scuffle? I don't study Aikido or Karate, but they have two iconic people (Ueshiba, Funakoshi, and you could even add Oyama) who did prove their stuff in actual documented combat who strongly promoted that a true martial artist should never hurt somebody more than what was necessary and that it was failure to seriously injure an untrained opponent. Let's look at BL's technique. Strong hand lead-- it'd get you killed in the ring. Oh yeah, the ring is different than the street-- BullSh_t. The ring is all you got to measure the value of what you're learning against a real skilled opponent. Twenty or thirty years from now somebody will say "Was Cung Le, Royce Gracie, Frank Shamrock, Tito Ortiz ... etc. etc. etc... a good fighter?" you can watch a tape and answer it for yourself. Bruce Lee wrote books and made movies. Is the JKD theory good?--- Actually it is if you look at it as seeking to find your limits through hard training based in proven methods, so the theory is good, the system as it is today as taught as a system is crap.


FLAME ON!!! :D

[ZIM]

I'm beginning to think that BL was interpreted wrong by his heirs.

I mean, look at what he was saying: "avoid the classical mess" [he was talking about the wing chun lineage arguements] and "absorb what's useful" [he was not saying 'grab what works in any art', he was saying 'if you're opponent throws a limb at you, use that'] :D

FWIW, I think that the JKD ppl haven't 'stripped down' KF so much as did san shou before san shou was created. Anyhow, it might not be KF anymore, depending on your definition.

If you want a true-r version of a stripped-down-to-essense KF that still IS KF, you'd probably find it in I Chuan, IMHO.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Okie, this might make a lot of you scream but i believe this: there is nothing new we can invent when it comes to unarmed combat. We have had 2 arms and 2 legs and one head (complete the rest of the body parts) for so long now, that every working methods and tactics you could use to fight other humans has probably been already invented waaayyyy before you were born. Of course, you can always have many different looking flowers, but the roots are the same. There are not 1000000000000 ways for a human with 2 arms, 2 legs and one head (and the rest!) to fight another human with two arms, two legs and one head unarmed, and probably they have all been tried some time in History.
It's up to us to not confuse form with essence, and way with goal, whatever art we train...

[MightyB]

True.

I'll drink a beer in your name tonight.

[Crimson Phoenix]

In my name?? Well, make it two beers then...and get laid too ;)

[apoweyn]

Strong hand lead-- it'd get you killed in the ring.

aw, mightyb. you know it hurts me when you say that.

:(

if i survive, i'll let you know how it goes.


stuart b.

[MightyB]

The strong hand lead is too defensive for ring fighting. It's ok to switch it up between standard and south paw a little, but you should start training orthodox with your strong hand in the rear if you want to fight in the ring.

[apoweyn]

mightyb,

you're quite right of course. the right side lead is too defensive.

blast that small alien organism that lives in the base of my spine and demands that whenever i go right lead, my offense goes all to hell. d-mn the puppetmaster. d-mn him to hell!


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

Neat.

Why ap?

[apoweyn]

i'm sorry. why what?


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

Why does your offense go out the window with a right lead? (Strong hand lead?)

[yenhoi]

Lol, maybe I just didnt read your whole post.

:D

Why does strong hand lead dictate weak offense MightyB?

[MightyB]

I read your other post on the which side thread, if you train with a strong hand lead and it feels good, you should go with it. IMO, it's more difficult to throw offensive combinations with a strong hand lead. I see a tendancy for people who use strong hand leads petering out after 1 and 2 strike combos only because they've used up the big gun on the opener. It's just my observation and experience. I'm sure that being super-human gives you obvious advantages over us mortals that I can't begin to comprehend.

[apoweyn]

yenhoi,

i was being sarcky. honestly, i find the idea that your offensive or defensive tendencies would be undone by which foot you have forward to be a bit silly.

i've trained with a right lead for, what, 13 years now. and my offensive and defense are built around that setup. i'm as offensive as i want to be with my right foot forward, because that's how i learned my offense. now mightyb's issues with the right lead are presumably based on his experiences. and perhaps his offense gets hung up that way. i can't say.

in short, i'm with you. right lead.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Lol, maybe I just didnt read your whole post.

:D




;)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MightyB
I read your other post on the which side thread, if you train with a strong hand lead and it feels good, you should go with it. IMO, it's more difficult to throw offensive combinations with a strong hand lead. I see a tendancy for people who use strong hand leads petering out after 1 and 2 strike combos only because they've used up the big gun on the opener. It's just my observation and experience. I'm sure that being super-human gives you obvious advantages over us mortals that I can't begin to comprehend.

being superhuman.

[sigh]

mightyb, here's the deal. you can't make some sweeping assertion about the nature of reality and then get all sullen because it doesn't jive with my experience. i'm not superhuman. i just trained a certain way. and how i throw my big gun, how my combos are organized, etc. are all designed around a power lead. therefore, it's entirely conceivable that i've made some adjustments so that the right lead makes sense.

obviously, it doesn't make sense to you based on the way you move. but i move differently. based on a choice of lead foot. why is it so difficult to believe that maybe, just maybe, i have some degree of control of that situation?


stuart b.

[MightyB]

I'm in a particular randy mood today and have had a tendancy to flame and troll a little. It happens every now and again.

[apoweyn]

i know precisely how you feel, mate. no harm, no foul. cool?

:)

[red5angel]

from all the dress talk last week I think Ap has a tendancy to 'flame' as well ;)

I think leading with either seems reasonable if you train that way. I am leading so far with my weak side but working on both and I imagine that I could learn to lead just fine with my strong side, although it may take more time.

[MightyB]

I'm actually sitting here trying to analyze how I fight because we train in class with a strong side lead which is a pretty standard KF fighting stance. I like to switch it up, but I will approach with a right hand lead. I usually open with a diu sau and Ying ming chit don (pluck the opponents lead hand and punch straight to the face with the left hand) but sometimes I'll make contact to their arm with the right, deflect with the left (Tu Sau) and fire a right hand at their stomach. This is without gloves. But, with gloves, I approach south paw, make contact when I get to hand range, and fight orthodox-- left hand lead. I limit kicks to push kicks and round kicks to the thigh and calf because I'm not big into kicking leads. I practice leg catch sweeps so that's conditioned me into not liking above the waist kicks. Hmmm...

[yenhoi]

"Back in the day" training traditional WCK it was a big deal to train both sides as equally as possible, open and closed guard with either leg forward.

[joedoe]

What if you train to stand front on? :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
"Back in the day" training traditional WCK it was a big deal to train both sides as equally as possible, open and closed guard with either leg forward.

when I think of open and closed guard, I think of grappling. What is it in terms of wc?

[yenhoi]

Its like this:

your in a boxing stance:
right leg forward, right arm forward - open guard
right leg forward, left arm forward - closed guard
and so on with the left leg, etc.

Everything was trained in all four of these positions. Eventually you kinda just flow from one to the other, when its better to be in that particular position.

Kinda like open and closed four count combos in thai boxing if that rings a bell in your school.

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

Having read all these posts, I can only tell you:

-Kung Fu is not for the impatient.

-You can learn to fight quickly in any martial art, all you need is the "heart" to do so and it doesn't take years.

-You don't need to strip anything away. This action comes from impatience and inability to understand what is there.

-There are poor teachers in every field of study

-The are poor students in every field of study.

-The Truth of Kungfu is found in the doing.

cheers

[AndyM]

Kung Fu! Backwards or forwards?

A while back systems of Kung Fu evolved as people found better methods for doing the same thing, or got beaten by people with better methods.

Seems to me that most Kung Fu people seem to be scrabbling backwards in an attempt at Historical recreation of something that 'might' have been, rather than learning and evolving. War-Gaming?

Look at JKD. Some of the guys are continually shifting and stripping things down to rebuild them much the same way as early Kung Fu people did. Yet some JKD guys have been caught up in trying to recreate what Bruce did or Inosanto did 20 years ago.

Where are we going to be in 20 years?

Still trying to remember stuff other people learned a thousand years ago for the "arts" sake, or working hard, progressing and doing Kung Fu?

You can train BJJ, or Thai, or Karate, or Tae Bo, but it will always be part of your Kung Fu won't it?

Tell me I'm wrong!

__________________________________________________ __

Thanks KL,

That almost brought things back on track.

Do me a favour guys, flick yourself in the baLLs, brush away the tears, and read the original post (above) again.

There are plenty of people out there with the will to make a difference, but where's the direction coming from?

Are we evolving or dissolving?

Someone kick my soapbox :)

[MightyB]

You're Wrong! ;)