Su Dong Chen and perspective on Chi

[Merryprankster]

I've no idea who Su Dong Chen is, and I cut and pasted this from MMA.tv

I was lucky enough to train with Su Dong Chen for a week. Su is an internal stylist- he does hsing-i and bagua, and tai chi, and is known as a "fighting" practitioner- he'll fight anyone , or at least he would in his younger days, and he was known as a dangerous street fighter. After training with him, I was very impressed, he could hit VERY hard, in fast combinations while moving, when he was extremely close to you.

SU was also a serious drinker, and one night afdter training he polished off half a fifth of Jack Daniels in about half an hour. I asked him about chi, and he straight up told me that almost all the "chi" crap you hear is bull**** (this from an internal stylist). He said that chi was real, but to think that one could hurt someone with it, or make iron body, or do any of the crap you see, was just nonsense. He then showed me a bunch of tricks that , if I hadnt been shown what he was doing, would look like chi was being used, but it was just magicians tricks.

Su had only disdain for the kind of people that use chi to make themselves look like theyre superhuman.

I thought this was interesting. Comments?

[Braden]

Yes.

Some mpegs of Su Dong Chen were posted here a while back. You might remember one of him throwing a judoka who shot at his legs. He's one of very few people who I thought have looked very good on video.

He shares teachers with another famous practitioner, Luo De Xiu, who taught Tim Cartmell who you may know (he recently published a book on BJJ). People speak very highly of Mr. Luo as well.

Also, internal styles are where it's at. :p

[taijiquan_student]

I've heard Su Dong Chen is supposed to be a real bad-ass. He sounds like it, and the vids on his website are nice too.

Maybe this is something that doesn't get explained very well by a lot of internal stylists. Of course there are a few wankers and jokers here and there, but for the most part, I don't think many people are claiming that they can hurt people with their qi. I know for myself that qi exists (I practice with it everyday), and other people do too, but that doesn't mean we believe in all the BS that gets thrown around by so-called "masters".
I think what Su said is very good and down-to-earth, but it's also something that people have been trying to say for a while. When I say "Qi exists" I don't mean I can be cut by knives without sustaining injuries or that I can shoot balls of plasma out of my palms. That would be ridiculous.

[Braden]

BTW, alot of people get confused about this... both external and internal styles traditionally have spoken about qi and practiced qigong methods. They simply differ on aspects of their approach and principles. In general, the 'body hardening' skills you hear of (like iron palm, iron body), and similar infamous methods, are associated with (some) external styles, not internal ones. Mr. Su's comments convey the same attitude held by most skillfull internalists historically.

For instance, the famous iron palm practitioner, Ku Yu Cheung, was a Shaolin stylist, not an internalist. Internalists are often warned against practicing these skills. If you consider the taoist philosophy that inspired some famous internalists, you might note that ideas of the middle path, balance, and macrocosm-microcosm would suggest philosophicaly a training method that focuses on general skill and health, rather than achievement through a highly specific and isolated skill. Conversely, the stories of Buddhist monks (and Indian yogis) seeking enlightment through the practice of a highly specific and isolated achievment might encourage these approaches in 'external' styles like Shaolin.

This is usually misunderstood.

[Braden]

OT, was it a kungfu guy or an MMA guy who made that post?

I remember when Mr. Su was coming to teach in the States, there were some people on mma.tv trying to encourage MMA guys to check him out... I never heard if any did though.

Would be interesting to hear their impressions.

[count]

I had a class with him last week and found him to be really practical. He had really modern methods and pulled the power out with a simple way of explaining things. comparisons with modern warfare in terms of offense and defense and comparisons with modern sports and modern fighting styles. Not to say he didn't teach traditional methods, he just explained them in a modern way. His bagua is amazing. Here's the deal though. Most teachers who are the real deal are not teaching mysticism or magic. The ones who don't know tend to fill in the blanks with fantasy. Su Dong Cheng is a teacher worth studying with.

[count]

Who was the poster? seems to me, someone with a mma background who posts here said they learned from him a while back. I just can't remember who?:confused:

[Shadowboxer]

Braden, I remember watching those videos and was impressed as well. The one with the judoka "inspired" some deabte about the quality of the shooting technique, but whatever. It was also cool to hear him smacking his students around in the freestyle one.

I believe in Chi/Ki/Qi but not to the extent that one can do "magical" things. I believe it exists but is hard to describe and must be felt. When I was traing in Aikido, my Sensei of 25 years martial training in boxing,judo, jujitsu,karate was showing us some groundfighting about the time the 3rd UFC had come out. He called me to demonstrate some ways to submit from the mount. He was the same size and weight as me pretty much. But when you grabbed him, you could just feel some sort of energy that wasn't there when you grabbed other advanced students. Anyways, he was in the mount and was explaing something and I could just feel his "heaviness" is the best way I can describe it, flowing downwards through me. Others (who weighed more)would be in that position but it didn't feel the same.

[Lao_Peng_You]

I think it's pretty well put. The author made the point that I tried (poorly) to make on another thread, and that is Qi and/or Qi Gong is not super hero stuff, and should not be taken out of the context of the martial part of martial arts. It's specific training that is not seperate from martial arts from my experience. For example, many professional athletes use visualization as part of their training regiment. Certain CMA have specific visualization, mental and physical techniques that help your martial arts. If you take these specific exercises out of the context of martial arts, then they most likely become new age fantasy stuff. If you think it is bad or wrong to use your martial arts in any venue, like competition or sparring practice, then you might be in the wrong place. As the author put it, "he'll fight anyone". The people I have met that do "internal" MA never practice their art out of the context of being "martial", and they fight a lot in order to become better.
I don't think I've been on this forum enough, but here's a question MP, why does this seem so strange to you (if it does at all), and why are some people so closed to the idea that martial arts exist only physically? By that I mean why is it so far fetched to think that the mental and emotional self is important to train as well in order to achieve a better and more efficient physical expression?

[Xebsball]

I liked the vids on Su's site, and i hear he got fighting skills wich are hardly found on todays most cma praticioners.
I think the message is that a lot of the magical mystical stuff is boosheyt, but saying theres no such as real iron skills is incorrect indeed. There are peeps who can take strikes, no doubt bout it -> but of course, doesnt mean they are invulnerable/unlimited/indestructable/uncutable/unkillable/undefeatable -> it means they got some extra resistance thing going on, kwon what i mean?


Originally posted by Braden
Also, internal styles are where it's at. :p

Braden (who is lucky to pratice the 2nd most best style of all best styles) is correct.

[Braden]

No, you're confused Xebs, I study bagua, not xingyi. :D

[Xebsball]

LOL :D

I'm starting the campaign "Fight the Bagua, Take the Santi back, Santi to the people" (Fight the powa, take the powa back, power to the people)
It is clear the vast superiority of the 5 elements over the 8 trigrams dude.

[Braden]

Santi is pretty sweet.

You just need to coil yourself up a bit more, shift your weight back a bit, and you'd be really set. ;)

[count]

I'll take my San Ti with a twist.:p

[Xebsball]

sum***** circle walkers :D

[Braden]

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/liujingru.html

The top two pics below the banner are what we're babbling about, for those unfamiliar. :)

[dezhen2001]

great thread MP! :)

this is what i cant understand... why is Qi seen as something magical and that u become invincible with it or something? if you ask anyone who practices TCM they will tell you its not really something special at all... just the core of things.

Even in regards to things like hard qigong - its also not something magical, but can really be done. it takes a LOT of practise and training - my skill is 4 hours a day on that alone, not including the wing chun and other qigong i do, and im only a beginner! yet it makes me healthy and stronger and my body denser and conditioned. im sure there are other ways that do a similar thing too, no big deal... nothing special.

i have been to a few demonstrations and seen a few people doing things that are really just tricks like you described... but then again there are genuine examples of skill out there - and they tend to look the least impressive.


Most teachers who are the real deal are not teaching mysticism or magic. The ones who don't know tend to fill in the blanks with fantasy.possibly the truest thing said about this in a long while :)


Santi is pretty sweet. not as good as the wing chun stance my friends :cool::D

dawood

[count]

not as good as the wing chun stance my friends
Isn't that just simplified southern mantis? How can you compare your centerline to bagua with 360 degrees of center line?:D ;)

[swmngdragn]

I've seen Su's vids, and it's clear he has a *ton* of fighting experience. I was impressed with his use of space, and timing. Personally I like to think of him as "Choi Lite", though. :D

[Matt Irvin]

For those who don't know, Su Dong Chen is an martial arts master whose emphasis is on the prinicples of the so-called "internal arts." He seems to be known by IMA stylists in this country primarily because he was the number one student at the famous Taiwanese master Hong Yi Xiang's school back in the '70s--Master Su made a name for himself as a teenager with limited training who won several major national tournaments in Taiwan. Up until recently he had been living and teaching in Japan, where he was named one of the Top 11 "Underground Fighters" in a book that came out a couple of years ago. He has a reputation there for spanking pretty much anyone that is up to the challenge. He's met and exchanged knowledge with a lot of big name masters in the martial arts field, including the founder of Kyokushinkai Karate Mas Oyama, Krav Maga's Imi Litchenfield, Shuai Jiao's Chang Dong Sheng, Chen Taiji's Chen Xiao Wong, etc. Master Su's current endeavor is to promote his Essence of Evolution martial arts philosophy, which you can read about HERE (http://www.evolutionary-systems.com). He's going to be living in Los Angeles, though he will be in Japan from February through March, filming some new videos: "Inch Power" and "Taiji Fighting Tactics."

Referring to Master Su as anything "lite" is a pretty substantial claim given his level of ability. He's been in Japan doing what most martial artists just run their mouths about--fighting on the street and winning--for years. However, if your teacher is as good as you say, I'll have to check him out.

The crazy thing about Master Su and "qi" is that he's one of two people I've ever seen make the hair on his arms stand up when he was doing some movements. I still don't quite understand his explanation for it, but I've got a substantial way to go before I have that level of sensitivity. But the original poster was dead on--Master Su HATES all this qi nonsense that floats around in the internal martial arts communities, and I do too. Whenever people can't explain something, it's qi. Whenever you can't do the technique, you're not using enough qi. Qi this, qi that, blah blah, and not a one of them can fight.

As someone pointed out, Master Su has modern methods of explaining the internal arts, as well as excellent training methods with enable him to do what a lot of skilled people can't: pass on his knowledge. However, his major emphasis is on avoiding the classification of style. All this stylistic business about whose stance is better and whatever is exactly the kind of thing that keeps people from realizing possibilities. That's why Master Su doesn't teach "Xing Yi, Ba Gua, and Taiji." He teaches the principles of the internal arts, as they relate to movement and strategy, because he has found them to be the most effective for real fighting.

For anyone that is interested, he will be coming back to Los Angeles from Japan on March 18th. We'll be doing a two-day seminar the following weekend, and then he will begin teaching regular classes in the L.A. area. If anyone wants to know more, please e-mail me at:

matt@evolutionary-systems.com

[count]

Hi Matt,
I enjoyed the class and hope to see you there again soon. Maybe we can invite Master Su for a workshop too. By the way, you would like Choi very much. :eek: He's also a living treasure. If you ever have the chance to get to Chicago, look him up. Man, it would be really cool to get Choi out here for a visit.

[Braden]

Thanks for the post, Matt.

BTW, we're all kidding about the stylistic/stance stuff. :D

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Matt Irvin
But the original poster was dead on--Master Su HATES all this qi nonsense that floats around in the internal martial arts communities, and I do too. Whenever people can't explain something, it's qi. Whenever you can't do the technique, you're not using enough qi. Qi this, qi that, blah blah, and not a one of them can fight.

Totally agreed.


Originally posted by Matt Irvin
All this stylistic business about whose stance is better and whatever is exactly the kind of thing that keeps people from realizing possibilities.

We were joking on the stances thing mkay :cool: plus me and Braden have an inside joke thing of bagua vs xingyi, sorry if it that wasnt clear.

[swmngdragn]

Matt,

I believe that Su, and Choi have more in common than you may want to admit. To be honest I wouldn't admit it without proof either. However you can be assured that Choi teaches in the same manner as Su. Plus he's been doing it for around a decade, or two longer than Su. You can draw your own conclusions, but I truly believe that Choi would be just as surprised as Su.

I can, in all earnestness, say that Su is excellent, but Choi is incomparable. At their level(s) it becomes a matter of degrees in minutae as it relates to their respective skill level(s). I don't know if they'd be friendly towards one another, but I believe that they would both benefit by their meeting one day.

It would be interesting..................... To say the least. ;)

[Felipe Bido]

I remember that thread. Jimmy said that he tried a double leg at Su, and he just stepped back (exactly like a sprawl), and told Jimmy that "It's the most natural move to do" (This coming from a guy that doesn't know BJJ). Jimmy also said the strikes that Su used "came from Xingyi...they are somewhat strange, but they're very effective and powerful".

That's what Jimmy said, but I could be wrong. I read that a long time ago.

That reminded me of a time in the chatroom, when I was asking Merryprankster about the "buckback" technique, and I found that the principles and steps were very similar to the "stepping back with smooth steps" found in Xingyi...

I don't know if MP remembers...we ended up talking about food afterwards :p

[Matt Irvin]

swmngdrgn: It's not a matter of whether I want to admit it or not--I don't know anything about the teacher you're talking about, so I can't judge him one way or the other. Bug your webmaster to get some video files up on your website--I don't think I'll be making it out to chicago anytime soon. ;) If they met, Master Su would probably be extremely happy. There aren't a whole lot of people out there with a high level of ability. Once we were in Minnesota and we met this guy who had learned wing chun, but had a lot of ideas of his own and had seen Master Su's tapes--the guy's movement was amazing. Master Su was saying there was probably 3 or 4 wing chun guys in all of Hong Kong who were at his level. :eek: I've never seen M. Su as happy as he was that night.

Let me give you an example of how Master Su tends to look at things. If that guy Jimmy said that M. Su's hits "came from Xing Yi," M. Su would probably get on his case. It's true that the old Xing Yi masters documented certain fighting tactics, but their movements all come from a utilization of physics and body mechanics. These are things that athletes use without ever having heard of Xing Yi, does does it really "come from" that? If you talk to M. Su about movement, you will hear him talk about things like relative balance of pendulum motion, relative balance of elastic motion, etc, etc. Not a whole lot of "This is the wood element," and so forth.

[Mr Punch]

Sorry, can't access your site right now for some reason...

do you happen to know if he's giving any seminars/classes when he's back in Japan? Anywhere near Tokyo?

Is this the guy who lived in Tokyo until last year?

PM me if you'd prefer, but don't mention horses or college girls or anything like that in the subject cos I don't tend to see those...

[Kempo Guy]

Mat,
I believe he may still have a school (if not one of his students) in Shinjuku. Don't know his conact info though...

KG

[MightyB]

I love this guy...


He has a reputation there for spanking pretty much anyone that is up to the challenge.

and...


Master Su HATES all this qi nonsense that floats around in the internal martial arts communities

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Chi Hippies.

-------
Finally, an internalist that I like.

[Felipe Bido]

Can I also add this part thet I remember?

"He drinks and smokes like there's no tomorrow"

The drinking part gets my vote

[Matt Irvin]

That part is definitely accurate as well. I've known him to put away a whole bottle of Johnny Walker in less than two days. One time after class he went out side, lit up a cigarette, looked at me and said "Qi Gong," and then took a huge toke on it. Drinks, smokes, and he's funny as hell.

[Laughing Cow]

Getting back on topic.

Get the recent issue of "T'ai Chi" magazine and read the article about

"Chi usage in T'ai Chi"

it looks at the issue from both sides.
i.e.
The Body mechanics Guys
The Guys that say Chi is important.

Was an interesting read I thought.