bridging the gap

[nickle]

.i was doing some sparring today with a couple of friends of mine, and found it increadibly hard to bridge the gap. im quite short and one of the people i was sparring had a massive reach advantage. i do wing chun in addition im thus quite good at close range, but when he was in elbowing range i was just closing past punching range, and i found it very hard to effectively close in on him. when i did i managed to kick some butt, but otherwise i was getting killed. i tried some destructions on his lead hands but only one really worked and a lot of the time he would just move his arms out the way of my destructions. basically ive naturally got an advantage at close range, and im training in a close range system, so i need to know how to bridge the gap... the main problem really is that if i try to circle when he is attacking im always on the backwards foot because his range was so huge, and if i try to circle him when he is not coming forwards he just readjusts before i can close in on him.anyway, i hope you can forgive my terrible grammar and help me out here guys.thanks...Nickle.

[Grendel]

Hi Nickle,

He is making the bridge for you. Take advantage of it.

Stay low in your horse and make him reach to hit down at you thereby diminishing his reach advantage. Unless his Wing Chun is better than yours, you should be able to stand your ground, not circle around.



Regards,

[Martial Joe]

As far as I know closing the gap means just making contact.

[yenhoi]

Yeah man, you dont always have to go and build the bridge yourself... most people throw them at you willingly.

:eek:

[nickle]

ok... well how do i take advantage of the bridge he is throwing at me... the problem is that becuase he is so longarmed i dont get my hands even to his elbow when he "builds the bridge" also btw he does longfist not wing chun... i like to spar different styles so that i dont fall into the "play by the rules" trap... i can bridge well enough when i spar with my wing chun buddies...they play my rules...

thanks for the reply's... keep em coming...

nickle.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by nickle
ok... well how do i take advantage of the bridge he is throwing at me... the problem is that becuase he is so longarmed i dont get my hands even to his elbow when he "builds the bridge" also btw he does longfist not wing chun... i like to spar different styles so that i dont fall into the "play by the rules" trap... i can bridge well enough when i spar with my wing chun buddies...they play my rules...

thanks for the reply's... keep em coming...

nickle.

I am working on this now.

Man, Longfist - exact opposite of WCK, that's a good style to work out this problem with.

I understand it's not always as easy as reading from the Kuen Kuit. There are a number of theories regarding this but IMO not all are compatible with WCK theory. I would be interested in hearing from some truly ADVANCED people but I think there are very few here. The JKD people have some interesting ideas, but again not all are WCK compliant IMO like using kicks as fakes or initial attacks.

One suggestion I would make is to bait him with distance. Try staying just outside of his range: He comes in - give him a little distance. Do that once or twice and then when he tries to take up that extra distance with a big step in SHOOT IN on him and hit to the center.

You should be able to get contact with his attack by meeting his tool. Once this happens you could try working off it. Bottom line is you will need to close that gap so if all else fails GO IN!

Would be interested in hearing more opinions.

YC

[yuanfen]

Nickle sez(Reply in brackets):
ok... well how do i take advantage of the bridge he is throwing at me... the problem is that becuase he is so longarmed i dont get my hands even to his elbow when he "builds the bridge" also btw he does longfist not wing chun...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(IMO- you problem is a lack of sufficient wing chun footwork.
Right after touching that long arm- you should be in)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yc sez;I would be interested in hearing from some truly ADVANCED people but I think there are very few here.

(some mun sao some obiter dictum))

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by YungChun
One suggestion I would make is to bait him with distance. Try staying just outside of his range: He comes in - give him a little distance. Do that once or twice and then when he tries to take up that extra distance with a big step in SHOOT IN on him and hit to the center.

Why wait?

[YungChun]

Originally posted by burnsypoo


Why wait?

In this case the original poster is having trouble getting inside. Baiting with distance means setting up the attacker by changing distance. The changes (more than one) don't happen instantly - and there's the 'wait.'

We are all open to new, different, good ideas in this area that don't begin and end with comments like "You're not doing it right," or "use the form," etc, etc. Students are aware of the theory and the forms - it's putting them to use in practical situations that can sometimes be tough and NOT by the book. Ideas that help bridge the gap between the material we all study and dealing with the UNEXPECTED are what's needed.

YC

[nickle]

thanks yung chun, that is exactly the reason i use this forum at all.

one other thing (doh it seems like i keep withholding information) we were doing hands only sparring. obviously this is not realistic and all that jazz but in the context of hands only sparring i couldnt get him. when doing hands and feet my problem is a bit less serious cos i can usually get in some low line kicks, which often frustrates people to come within 1 step of my range..then i get them.

one of my objectives is to be able to use wing chun in sparring and not revert to kickboxing type stuff. im always happy when i pull off proper wing chun structures in sparring. thats why im not really interested in using jkd ideas or whatever. i want to be able to use wing chun fully before i start to mess around with other ideas...not the most open mind but hey...

my fotwork is not great, in fact my sifu always tells me its crap...will work on it

also, chum kui. where are the bridging applications? help me out?

thanks again for all the great reply's

nickle.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by nickle
my fotwork is not great, in fact my sifu always tells me its crap...will work on it

also, chum kui. where are the bridging applications? help me out?



Working on footwork should pay dividends, enabling you to get your hands within effective range.

As far as I can tell chum Kiu is full of bridging applications...footwork, arms intercepting and deflecting while turning, etc.

[nvisblfist]

against opponents with a reach advantage and experience try not to be the aggressor. They will pick you off while you try to get in. Once the make a bridge then you can walk up the bridge using a variety of techniques, usually they will show you which technique to use. The object is to shorten their arms to your attack length. You have to be more patient.

[fa_jing]

You may hear advice to the contrary, but I think entering with a quick front kick is good training for entering. Not very committed on the kick, using it to draw attention downwards then follow up with the hands quickly. Try it out and see if you like it.

[yuanfen]

Opinions can vary--- mine: a wing chun person should be very careful about entering with a kick-- pretty good chance of ending on the ground by being taken down or knocked down--- depending on the competence of the other fella.

[Savi]

Hey Nickle,
Closing the 'gap' is one of the most dangerous ranges of combat.

In a forum setting, it is quite difficult to tell anybody EXACTLY what techniques to use; too many possibilities and wholey unrealistic. If someone tells you to do one thing, and then you go and try it in a combative environment, that particular condition you look for may never happen - thus never being able to apply advised technique and perhaps ending in serious injury.

Rather than offer to you what techniques to try and close the gap, I think you should look for strategy and tactic to find the answer to your question. IMO this will bring more clarity to your mind, and more order (inside you) to the chaos (outside you).

I do not know what skill level or experience you have, so I will try to be general, yet informative with this. Here are some thoughts I think might helpful to you, as are the other posts before this.

1) Try to maintain a flanked position to the opponent; stay to the outside of their lead side, and don't go toe to toe. As Yung Chun stated, which is also what many 'expert' level people do, is set up the opponent. This can be your greatest advantage, and the most important because it is the start of the engagement. Keep in mind this option may not be available to you.

2) Ignore their hands. Hands decieve and move too quickly. Track the bigger body joints for telegraphed intentions, but never lose your centerline focus. Your goal is to Go to and Occupy center, but not down the dragon's throat! Enter or engage from the side...

3) Intercept the larger joints (ie. elbows). By either jamming their elbows to their body, or keeping them extended from the body puts you in greater control than they. Learn to push, pull, jerk, sink, and raise their elbows in all directions (up, down, left, right, front, back) to your will. The world of Chi Sao and Chum Kiu applications should show you the proper ways to do this.

4) When far away, Mobility is high priority. Move, move, move! But not too excessively. Root is not essential, but balance is. When close (bridged) to the opponent, Stability coupled with mobility is high priority. Root is essential, and so is maneuvering.

5) Strking should not be done from a stationary position. Footwork must accompany every hand movement. When striking, you must pass through the centerline AND control the center of gravity. An off-balanced opponent is an ineffective one. If kicking, only kick if their leg ENTERS your center space and it must be committed as is every technique, otherwise stay to the sides.

6) Recognize when your opponent controls space or time. If they control the space on the battlefield, you must control the Time factor. If they control the timing of the fight, you must control the space (occupy the proper spaces.) Ultimately, it is you that must control both.

The sixth point is one of the most important to understand, and not just because it addresses your question. You have a long-range fighter. If he is fast, you must be able to take the flank and attack; get into short range and control his elbow-to-shoulder range. If he is slow, but has position, you must use speed to your advantage. Many variables to consider, but keep in mind some of the points listed above. All are part of a greater picture and do not work alone. Do not expect to get fast or immediate results. These pointers come with time and practice.

Take care,
-Savi.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Opinions can vary--- mine: a wing chun person should be very careful about entering with a kick-- pretty good chance of ending on the ground by being taken down or knocked down--- depending on the competence of the other fella.


Joy,


I would like to clear my path with continous low round horse kicks target at the inner or outside of the opponents' leg.

and waiting for reaction to get into the center door with a push kick, penetrate heart kick, or knee and/or elbow. :D


Hendrik

[yuanfen]

Well Hendrik-

My experience is different. I used to do some of that with kicks but I left it behind- as being unnecessary.
joy

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
You may hear advice to the contrary, but I think entering with a quick front kick is good training for entering. Not very committed on the kick, using it to draw attention downwards then follow up with the hands quickly. Sorry, but I disagree strongly with this approach. An entry kick is a risky proposition at the best of times, but especially when considering the idea of an "uncommitted" attack. No offence intended, but this is a Tae Kwon Do type approach. Take whatever approach you want, but do it with intent.

Your mileage may vary,

Matrix

P.S. Before someone comments on my TKD comment, I'm speaking from years of TKD experience, not simply casting aspersions.

[KenWingJitsu]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The best way to bridge the gap (esp for wc'ers) is with interception. Works every time.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The best way to bridge the gap (esp for wc'ers) is with interception. Works every time.

Yes it is.

But in this case the original poster is faced with an opponent who trains the outside and has much longer reach because he is bigger and longer. Some things are easier to do when you are closer to the same size as the opponent. When your facing a big guy with arms much longer than yours and potentially a stronger guy too, things can go wrong fast.


Originally posted by crimsonking

This is not good wing chun, nor is it an advisable strategy for a real fight. This is the sort of stuff that contaminates your wing chun when you play the sparring game.

Actually the distance bait I suggested is interception - it makes him over commit his step to make the intercept easier. Not all fights are going to be with stumbling drunks that don't know how to fight. If he knows how to use distance, then you had better too - 'just chi saoing him' doesn't always work.....

When on the outside before any bridge exists I don't think it's 'bad wing chun' to step back or step out - using distance as a weapon can mean many things. Taking a small step back in "fear" only to viciously attack a moment later and cream the guy as he steps in is quite sound in my book. The idea is to close when things are favorable - it makes no sense to close if the position, angle or distance is not in your favor. Some things will work most of the time but NOTHING works ALL OF THE TIME.

-------------

I also dissagree with the 'close the distance with a kick' notion. That is a sport karate move and Southern Shaolin just doesn't give up it's base unless there's a good reason. WCK normally kicks from close range or to intercept a kick.

YC

[yuanfen]

Agree with KWJ on this one- the key is interception.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Savi,

To chime in on one point . . .

Savi writes:

Rather than offer to you what techniques to try and close the gap, I think you should look for strategy and tactic to find the answer to your question. IMO this will bring more clarity to your mind, and more order (inside you) to the chaos (outside you). S

I agree with you w/r/t "entry techniques." A major problem IMO with "how to" (how do we bridge, how do we deal with an hook, etc.) questions is that they assume there is an answer that fits everyone ("the answer"). When, in reality, *our* (individual) answer ("our answer") depends on what we bring "to the table." So, with this perspective, I think we need at least four things all working together to skillfully (not relying on luck) and effectively "close the gap" from non-contact to contact: well-honed technical skill (the tools), a firm grasp of WCK's approach (objective, strategy, and tactics), well-developed attributes (for lack of a better word), and situational awareness (judgment). How well we have developed and understand these four aspects will determine what we can actually do -- not theoretically ("you should do this or that!"), but practically (can *you* actually make it work). For example, someone highly skilled can appear to "walk in" with a simple jik chung choi that joins and cuts-off the opponent's offense. To do that requires splendid timing, an acute sense of distance, great power, etc. Others without that level of skill will need to do something else; if they try to do what a person of higher skill did ("well, Yip Man did so-and-so"), they will fail. We need to start with "what we bring to the table" and determine how those things can be used to effectively "bridge the gap"; as we develop and grow, so will what we "bring to the table" and consequently what we can do. TN

Try to maintain a flanked position to the opponent; stay to the outside of their lead side, and don't go toe to toe. As Yung Chun stated, which is also what many 'expert' level people do, is set up the opponent. This can be your greatest advantage, and the most important because it is the start of the engagement. Keep in mind this option may not be available to you. S

From my experience, you'll not be able -- unless your opponent is of extremely low skill relative to you -- to get the flank off the bat; and even if you do, it is very often just a momentary advantage (most folks instinctively face). WCK's method is to join (dap/jip) and cut-off (jeet) the opponent's offense; how we implement that strategy depends IME on the opponent (what he does or doesn't do) and our relative skill. Typically, if he gives us the flank we take the flank; if he gives us the center, we take the center. Since our opponent tells us how to defeat him (by creating his own weaknesses) -- we need to remain flexible, mentally and physically, enough to act appropriately. To "look" for anything specific, like the flank, IME actually impedes our ability to act appropriately; like the water pressing on the dam -- it doesn't look for particular cracks ("take the crack near the sides") but takes whatever crack presented. TN

Terence

[teazer]

Well, here's one of the big differences between sparring & fighting. Unless you’re trying to mug someone, getting close isn’t usually so much of a problem. In sparring though, many opponents prefer to be cautious & will maintain that distance, so you get a chance to work on some things you wouldn’t normally.
Generally due to this range you’ll find yourself kicking more often. It’s good practice, so long as you don’t get carried away & incorporate kickboxing stuff, or rely on it more than your hands.
For people that persistently run away, you might have to be devious – wait for them to step forward or kick & move in then.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by YungChun
Actually the distance bait I suggested is interception - it makes him over commit his step to make the intercept easier. Not all fights are going to be with stumbling drunks that don't know how to fight. If he knows how to use distance, then you had better too - 'just chi saoing him' doesn't always work.....
The problem here is that you seem to be counting on him to over commit. Sure they're not all stumbling drunks, but if they know how to use distance, then they may also may know better than to fall for the bait. Then what are you going to do? Unfortunately, this type of discussion can quickly degrade into a series of "what if" deadends.

As for "just chi saoing him" that comment makes no more sense than "just sparring him". ;)

Matrix

[nvisblfist]

once again Terrence is right on target. Your opponent will tell you which way to bridge the gap.