We dont spar and I got bashed, what do I do now

[Phisker]

I would like to share a little experience with you guys.
About 6 ,months ago I started sparring regulary with some amatuer boxers from a local boxing gym.
I do kung fu and wanted to know how I would do against these guys, which led to an experience that I feel I am lucky to experience before it was too late.
The first time I sparred with these guys we wore head gear, groin guard and 12 ounce gloves.
The very first guy I sparred with, I tried to use what I learnt from kung fu and quite literally another guy watching said I got jab in the face about 30 times at will by the other guy.
At round two I threw several punches and all of a sudden I remember being on the floor with some guy giving me the count, I got up then saw a punch come and suddenly my head was all dizzy, the next thing I remebered was that some guy was helping me out from the ring to take a seat.
Within the next 6 months I sparred with about twelve other guys from that gym and out of that twelve all of them when I sparred with them knocked me down at least once.
Inaddition during those six months I practiced kung fu at home dilligently for an hour every morning and 3 hours after Uni and every time I tried to use the stances and punches from kung fu I just couldnt hit them not even once out of all those times I sparred with them.
Now ive taken up boxing for about five months and the funny thing is every time I box with these guys I never get knocked down not even once, Ive been hit badly but not knocked down.

But what I would like to ask you people out there with experience in all aspects of martial arts is this.

1: I feel like ive been disloyal to my kung fu school and my friends there for training with these other guys, but I just want to learn how to fight. I dont wanna be a figther or an instructor I just hope that I know how to fight so that when I have children I can teach them a few tricks and kung fu has not provided this for me as yet, because of our lack of sparring, is it wrong for going some where else to find this?

2: Some of my friends from kung fu have founded out that I have been sparring and training with other people and do not talk to me that much any more, they dont want me to come with them when there is a lion dance perfromance, and I feel that there is alot of animosity towards me because of this and I am thinking about quiting kung fu because I dont find it interesting anymore and I realistically dont see myself using any thing ive learnt in a fight, so im thinking about quiting, IS THIS THE RIGHT CHOICE?

3: How do you learn to actually hit some one in the head I dont want to sound brutal or arrogant but how I have no trouble in kung fu at hitting the bag or the focus mits right on the dot, but when I spar with these guys I cant touch them once with what I learnt?

I hope some of you guys out there dont think im saying that kung fu is crap, im not saying that, im just saying kung fu is not suited for me.
I just need a little advice from guy with experience.

[Felipe Bido]

Your signature spells something....and it starts with TROLL

(But Sakuraba is the ****...)

[Felipe Bido]

But if it's real...

Send your KF partners to hell, and take boxing classes. If you don't try your KF techniques against a resisiting opponent, you'll get killed next time.

[SevenStar]

*sniff sniff*

I smell a troll too.

If this is serious though, you need to be in a school that spars.There are many CMA schools that spar. Also, nothing is wrong with cross training, so there's no need to feel disloyal.

[Phisker]

im not a troll im being serious.
kung fu and boxing both put together are cheaper for me than one BJJ class I do boxing at a youth club that is goverment funded thats why it's so cheap.
Serioulsy im not a troll.

Ohh ok you guys are talking about what I say at the bottom can't I be a MMA fan that trains in kung fu?
Why is that so hard to believe?

[David Jamieson]

Phisker-

If you don't know how to hit, or how to fight with what you've learned in Kungfu, then you gotta analyze what it is you are doing wrong as a learner.

Why aren't you learning how to do these things?

It's always easy to blame the style or your teacher when it is in fact you who aren't doing well.

Pehaps you should pay more attention in class and try harder with your lessons then you won't be so bad at what you are doing.

cheers

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Phisker


Ohh ok you guys are talking about what I say at the bottom can't I be a MMA fan that trains in kung fu?
Why is that so hard to believe?

That's not hard to believe. many of us here are mma fans, and several of us also train bjj, boxing, etc. myself included. It could be unintentional, but your post doesn't sound genuine, and your points 2 and 3 are hilarious, IMO.

If your kung fu training could not allow you to stay on your feet after being hit, however, you either need to

1. change schools
2. train harder
3. find out why you don't spar. It could be because you've only been training 6 months.

[yenhoi]

sounds like mountain bikeing elite-ism to me.

:eek:

[X1liquidreamzx]

One thing about sparring, is doing 2 man sets.
over and OVER. it must be built into your muscle calculations

its quite funny because i used shaolin techniques and eventually they just kick in naturally, not like the form itself but like sa imiliar movement. people said, ahhaha i can hit you, and my natural reaction got them in a split second.

i got one thing to say

when you havee to think about it, it won't work.
when it becomes a thoughtless process, you are THERE. thats discipline.


and another thing, gloves in boxing.. is not kung fu.
our forms are not meant to be done with huge overblwon hands.
therefore it would be difficult for us to change tactics.
boxing is a sport, there are rules..real kung fu ther earen't.

[SevenStar]

Then use mma gloves. then you can do palm changes, strikes and anything else you want to do. Real kung fu isn't a sport, but you you practice full force eye gouges? what about full force groin strikes? a full force leopard's paw to the throat? Nope. One of the main advantages of the sport is that it allows you to fully practice your techniques fairly safely. That's a big plus, as it allows you to find out what you can really do and what you can't. what you need to work on, etc.

[dezhen2001]

man ur up late 2nite 7* :D

do u think they should make a FAQ section or somehting so ppl can check it when they join? coz im seeing a cycle here?:confused:

dawood

[SevenStar]

agreed - maybe we can do one and have KL make it sticky.

I'm usually up pretty late - I hate to sleep for some reason. during the week, I usually go between 1 and 2 am, then get up for work at 7:30am

on the weekends, I may not sleep at all. I am feeling kind of tired now though, so I may go soon.

[dezhen2001]

ah ok... i was just thinking its EST its around 3.30am and PST is around 00.30, thats all... :eek: lol

yeh thats a good idea for the sticky... maybe they could combile some good info from various threads and see what happens?

dawood

[SifuAbel]

Has anybody bothered to check this trolls profile yet?

Birthday March 3, 1980
What's your MA style? MMA
How long have you trained? 5 years Biography Tito Ortiz is an MMA god I worship him
Location Huntington Beach, California, USA
Interests Bashing BS black belts
Occupation Unemployed

[Scythe]

Give Phisker a break it doesn't sound like a troll question to me, people are all to quick to call another a troll because they say something contraversial.

Phisker, my advice is this: Boxing is a good art in itself and theres no doubt it will improve your punching skills and accuracy, but you have to remember that boxing sparring is formatized it is not a real fight! Because these guys managed to pound you in the ring when you first went along doesn't mean that they could have if it were a no rules street fight. Boxing will get you fit and improve your chances in a fight but it would need to be crossed trained with other methods to be fully rounded.

As for you kung fu club (what system is it by the way?) I think you should quit and go else where, if they are so blinkered as to not allow one of their own to go and try to better himself by practicing things that they are lacking then you don't need them.

Theres too much of this BS in the martial arts of people finding a system they are happy with and then scorning anyone else for wanting something different...Go get yourself a more open minded
Kung fu club and keep up your boxing!

By the way I'd scrub the BS black belt bit from your profile that is a bit troll like..you ain't gonna win any friends like that.:confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Has anybody bothered to check this trolls profile yet?

Birthday March 3, 1980
What's your MA style? MMA
How long have you trained? 5 years Biography Tito Ortiz is an MMA god I worship him
Location Huntington Beach, California, USA
Interests Bashing BS black belts
Occupation Unemployed

ROFL, no I didn't check. Just knew his post struck me as suspect.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
ah ok... i was just thinking its EST its around 3.30am and PST is around 00.30, thats all... :eek: lol

yeh thats a good idea for the sticky... maybe they could combile some good info from various threads and see what happens?

dawood

Sounds good to me.

Mods, what do you think?

I'm in CST - it's about 2:45 here

[yenhoi]

phisker: do you know Brent Downy?

I enjoy "HB surround sound...."

:eek:

[yenhoi]

12:49 am.

[dezhen2001]

lol 9am here :D

ah i dont think its too suss... i mean i was born in 1980 as well. sure i would like to bust some bs black belts too, we can all live the dream right? :D

could be wrong of course.

dawood

[SevenStar]

yeah, it could be a sincere post, which is why I did post an answer, but my first mind says it's a troll. I'm watching "The Pirates of Dark Water" right now. remember that?

[dezhen2001]

pirates of dark water... d.amn the name sounds familiar but im not sure what its about? is it animated? :confused:

dawood

[SevenStar]

http://www.yesterdayland.com/popopedia/shows/saturday/sa1537.php

[yenhoi]

I have all the action fiqures for pirates of darkwater, somewhere.

That was a wonderful show

I was born in 1980 also.

:eek:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maybe you are like that guy in kung pow ... your sifu teaches you everything wrong as a joke cause no one really likes you.

[Nichiren]

Phisker, don't be upset. Did you really belive you would have any chance against a boxer on his homeground? Its quite natural but why not ask them to sparr with KF rules, i.e. on your homeground!

I did boxing before I started KF (Wing Chun) and I got beaten badly by elbows, low kicks etc. But if we put on 12oz gloves and sparred with boxing rules i killed my KF brothers.

Lol, I still remember the horror when I went in low and got an elbow smack on top of the head. Or the first kick in the groin... :D

/Cheers..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I have all the action fiqures for pirates of darkwater, somewhere.

That was a wonderful show

I was born in 1980 also.

:eek:

yeah, it was a good show. So was "Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future" remember that one? The last few minutes of the show was interactive! you could shoot at the enemies and they would shoot back at you. If they hit you, your pilot would be ejected from his ship. That was always really cool to me. The guy that made it went on to make Babylon 5

[omarthefish]

The question didn't get me in a huff. You guys a little insecure maybe?

My initial response was:

Your gong-fu school sucks! They obviously aren't teaching you how to fight and you should get out. There's more to life than fighting but your comments about there resentment and not inviting you to their tea . .er. . .lion dancing party, would seem to indicate that they are petty and pathetic. If you like boxing more, go for it. If like the traditional stuff, take both classes. If you want to save money or are on some sort of mission to beat boxers at boxing while only training in a gong-fu school, switch schools.

Whoever brought up the tired old "oooh! scary gong-fu isn't for playing, it's for KILLING ! ! ! is a retard and their gong-fu sucks too. If you can't adapt what your doing to the level of seriousness of the encounter than you are living in a fantasy world.

Sparring a boxer while wearing open fingered gloves would be a big advantage for me. The ability to grab is a big deal. never mind "deadly" panther fists and what-not. Anyways, a lot of gong-fu schools train sparring pretty much the same way as boxers. Footwork, punching, not much difference. At a southern style school there's often hardley even any kicking. I also find one of the best ways to get people used to sparring is to limit the techniques like, right now we will only punch...now we will only kick... Now I will only defend while you attack and then vice versa.

Anyways, it gave me somthing to post about. It's spring holiday and I'm bored out of my brain. Did you guys know that China is "closed" this week. There's not a restaurant, not a gift shop, not a bank or even a **** house of prostitution open during the week of spring festival.

:o

[Ryu]

You sound like a putz.

[No_Know]

You don't want to do Kung-Fu if you're doing boxing. so (needle-and thread) just box...less money than boxing And Kung-Fu.

Kung-Fu being really great and even it working for you when you stick with it doesn't matter. You are impatient. and won't get good at Kung-Fu until you get more humble. Twenty-two? The way Kung-Fu works is sticking with it you get better the older you get. The focus shifts with age. But that doesn't deminish their skill. Kung-Fu is a process.

Boxing has what long term play? Used for doing other tasks?

Your so called friends at the Kung-Fu place? Re evaluate your definition of friends.

You children? Six months? Not getting it yet? You might have time to get passonablestuff to your children on your way to getting the children. You'd wait to do big stuff until they were two. And philosophy until then? Try Kung-Fu for two more years.

You will throughout your life use stuff you got from Just Kung-Fu and that is perhaps it's greatest value. Everyone can get something from it and it has uses throughout a person's lifetime.


g2g

[Royal Dragon]

Question (Hypothetically of course). Were you fighting under the very restrictive rules of Boxing?, or were you allowed to do your own thing?

It seems if you were trying to "Make" your stances work, then you don;t know how to yet. The stances "Work" when you are taught techniques that happen to use them. You need to know how to enter, how to use distance, (Or lack of it :D ), and you need to know how to follow through. The Stances support your actions. If your thinking about them, then you don't have any actions yet. If you don't have any actions yet, you can't fight.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

royal makes points needle in eye.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ish

[joedoe]

LOL GDA/No_know ... -ish :D

[DragonzRage]

Hey kung fu dudes...

This guy is trolling yall

[Royal Dragon]

I don't really care if he's trolling, I've taken over the conversation now, and I say we talk about why kung fu is superior to everythig else. :D

[David]

Phisker doesn't seem like a troll to me.... so far. But, Phisker, you haven't answered the question about which style you're training. MMA? Has it GOT any kungfu in it? Explain, dude!

6 months = nothing in many schools. There's so much re-programming of your processes to go through...

Know no, refreshing to see you speaking more or less plain English these days. I'll try to follow suit.

:D

-David

[Lowlynobody]

Train harder.
As a side note it sounds to me like you were boxing. Like other people have said - you were playing the boxing game. Its like a kickboxer starting on the ground and staying on the ground with a person who does BJJ. Who do you think will win?

[Serpent]

Royce.

[SevenStar]

yeah, Royce would choke him.

[Serpent]

Hmmmm. Is there anyone that Royce couldn't choke?

I've an idea for a thread.

[Felipe Bido]

Royce can't choke a Lei Tai platform; his arms are not that long...Rickson, maybe

[BaldMonk]

Six months is nothing. I've heard people say that you should be able to defend yourself using kung fu after only six months of training. I don't think that's realistic. It takes longer than that to be able to move your body in the kung fu way and generate power. Additionally, without taking the proper steps to be able to use techniques against a resisting moving opponent, it would be impossible to deal with a classmate in a cooperative school setting, much less a boxer, fighting under boxing rules. Your kung fu arsenal has to be limited after six months and to expect to do well after such a short time...

That being said Kung Fu isn't for everyone. It takes time and a lotta hard work to be proficient. Boxing may be a better fit for the short term. But, who would you rather fight a boxer or a kung fu practitioner (A real kung fu Practitioner) who has been training for thirty years? Let's make them 50 years old. This is easy because that's about the age of my Sifu. I don't know too many 50 year old boxers. But I know my answer. Your answer might make it easier to decide what art is for you. Besides there's no reason you can't return to kung fu later.

But I'd go to another school, your so-called friends sound like a buncha suckers.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my sifu still boxes at 50. just with a couple students but its full contact.

[Sho]

Royce couldn't choke Helio!

[MightyB]

So somebody else could have said it.

But, I don't think this guy is a troll. Also, I don't think that you guys have ever seen or experienced real boxing. It's an eye opener-- cuts 'em and dots 'em too. ;)

This guy's story is actually pretty real. If you step into a ring with a boxer and try to use traditional kung fu, chances are that you'll get killed. I've just started getting into boxing and real boxing training techniques-- thanks to Ringside. (http://www.ringside.com/)

Eye opener. Boxing is definitely for real. San Shou, MMA, Thai, and BJJ guys would do well against boxers, but traditionalists will get killed for a bunch of reasons: Too defensive and lack offensive combinations, inadequate jab and inadequate and unrealistic training for defense against real boxing technique, no slipping bobbing or weaving, no experience against real opponents, taught unproven techniques that won't really work, and not in proper condition to fight.


Dam_n it! I'm becomming a troll... must fight the dark side...

[Felipe Bido]

Royce couldn't choke Helio!



...but he could choke on Helium...

[MightyB]

Bet you wouldn't say that in front of Royce!

[Felipe Bido]

That one is for special occasions

[Royal Dragon]

Royce couldn't choke Helio!

Reply]
I bet you he could!!!


This guy's story is actually pretty real. If you step into a ring with a boxer and try to use traditional kung fu, chances are that you'll get killed. I've just started getting into boxing and real boxing training techniques-- thanks to Ringside.

Reply]
Sorry, no way. Boxers are VERY vulnerable to pretty much most of Kung Fu's (Any style) arsenal. All you have to do is Kick the living daylights out of them untill it's safe to get close and trip, uproot, or throw them on thier heads.

A boxer does not train to defend against kicks, sweeps locks or throws. Why wold they know what do do if presented with them in a fight? Try this, when they are in thier boxer's guard hold the ball, and just step up to thier arms so your left is pressing against thiers at the elbow, or just slightly above. That neutralises thier ability to jab as you have

1. covered the jabbing hand
2. you are circled to the outside of their center, so they can't fire it anyway.

Now, just Bagua around and wallop 'em in the back of the head and kick thier leg out form under them. Let 'em "try" and step out of it, they will just walk into your tripping foot and help you drop them faster.

The key is to contact and stick to thier hands. Once you have contact, you cna feel them before they do and it takes all the speed out of thier jabs, totally neutralising it.


Either that, or you could use the old "Bar room" trick and pull their shirts over thier heads. :eek: :D ;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

pppppffffff of course i would say that in front of him...the guy doesn't choke you unless there is at least 1M dollars at stake...and since there's no way I can gather all that money, he won't do any harm to me...shhheeeeeeesss

BTW, he does sound a little trollesque though...or at least he trains gong fu without liking it LOL

[MightyB]

I disagree with pretty much everything that you stated, except for the bagua since I know next to nuthin' about bagua.

You can't stick to them (complex trapping is martial fantasy anyway) and a good boxer's footwork is just as good or better than any kung fuers.

A good boxer's hands aren't just fast, they're hellafast. If you do open up the option of kicking, it's true that they don't train to defend against leg kicks, but they'll be able to block pretty much every kick you aim above their waste. If it's below the belt, if they're half intelligent, they'll maneuver out of anything that carries too much pepper.

Throwing is going to give them some problems if they are fighting somebody who can actually do combat throws. Problem is that those people are few and far between and any boxer will quickly and instinctively learn to sprawl or drop their weight to prevent being thrown. Try san shou and you'll see that it's tuff to throw somebody who doesn't want to be thrown. Watch NHB and you'll see that the most common throw is the form tackle aka double leg take down and that's considered bad form in traditional CMA.

Besides, we're talking about traditional CMA trying to fight a fighter. The fighter will win. The traditional guy just doesn't have enough experience to even hope to compete with him.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! You act like a traditional Kung Fu guy isn't a fighter or something. I got news for you, traditional MEANS fighting. I know there ar lots of modern newagey kung fu schools "Claiming" to be traditional, but if you look at the history, all the great masters were hard core fighters. if you not doing that, your not traditional.

As for what I said, you are on thier outside driving in against thier elbow. They can't hit you because they have to go through your arms to do it. You have them tangeled up with your arms in contact and controlling thiers. There is no way they can even pull back and disengage because you have thier guard pushed in tight against thier body, which turns them a bit thus prevening the other hand from making an effective attack. That, and thier vitals exposed, especially the back of the neck and head. They would be very vulnerable to Tai tzu's "cutting slice", as it enters from behind them in this situation. Unless they have eyes in the back of thier head, noway they could see it comming, let alone do anything from that position to stop it.

Bagua's footwork will easily enter you into the position needed, the rest is found in just about any Chinese art. It is a simple technique, and very effecitve because of that simpicity.

If it looks like it is going to fail, then you just use some of those deep stances, and duck under thier Guard, step through and toss'em. Diagonal cut from Shui Chiao is low enough to do it, and you'd already be angled to go in for it. It would be hard not to throw them if something went wrong.

The only way a boxer can dominate a traditionally trained Kung Fu fighter would be if the rules were restricted only to Boxing rules.

[ZIM]

MightyB is correct re: boxing's effectiveness.


You can't stick to them (complex trapping is martial fantasy anyway)
Boxers have a version of sticking, don't they? A clinch or something?? Anyways, agreed re: trapping- I would only go as 'complex' as elbow/shoulder lock/throws in this situation, no wristlocks, ever- they are the stooopidest things!

Also, it looks like some underestimate a boxer's ability to take truly punishing damage- they do that every day of their training.

Shouldn't see this screed as denying TCMAs effectiveness in some situations. I don't deny it can be. I just have a very healthy respect for the art of boxing. It, like TCMAs has also evolved and not all of that is sport-oriented [you just don't see the non-sport stuff].

[Royal Dragon]

double leg take down and that's considered bad form in traditional CMA.

Reply]
Really?? Who says?? I've seen similar at Shui Chiao seminar. it has all the elements of good Kung Fu, even the deep stances.

[Royal Dragon]

Also, it looks like some underestimate a boxer's ability to take truly punishing damage- they do that every day of their training.

Reply]
Yeah, Boxers do develop quite a bit of the "Iron Body", very similar to the Chinese arts, only they don't have single man exercises to develop it. They get it from taking hits from thier training partners.:eek:

[Crimson Phoenix]

Well...

Its quite blank: underestimating anyone, boxer or not, is just plain dangerous...

however, it is my personal experience that boxers have a very hard time dealing with well done sticking hands. However it is also my experience that you don't have ANY room for mistake when playing the sticky hands game with a boxer, because by instinct as soon as you let go the fist is shooting.

double leg take-down? since when is it considered bad form?? It is one of the oldest wrestling techs ever documented, there are, if I remember well, chinese drawings and greek statues depicting it...

[dezhen2001]

RD: i would rather hit myself, as partners dont wanna train with me much after i tell them to keep hitting me :(:eek::D

As for boxing, yup i have a great respect for it. i trained boxing for over 5 years before meeting my sifu.

it all comes down to experience in applying your skill in a chaotic situation and being able to adapt to what happens.

for example: i train with mates who do boxing, kickboxing and muay thai. i do wing chun. yet i can apply the little skill i have effectively against them, though i sometimes have trouble with their hooks as im not used to them yet.

Also i have done aikido for around 5 years, and can apply some of that skill also - irimi nage and tenchin nage for example, as well as variations from them. i guess some is similar to what i imagine the san shou guys do against round and straight kicks.

As for trapping - this always confuses me!:confused: in wing chun we go for your centre... if theres something in the way we a) go around it or b) move it, why chase hands - id rather chase the head!

the more you practise your skill with a partner the more you learn how to apply it.

dawood

[Scythe]

Its all a bit theoretical to claim one is better than another anyway, surely it depends on the skill of the Boxer and the skill of the kung fu guy, you can't say a boxer will definately kick a kung fu guys ass of vice versa.

As for the sticking hands if done properly it will give a boxer some trouble in landing his blows.

[MightyB]

LOL!!! You act like a traditional Kung Fu guy isn't a fighter or something. I got news for you, traditional MEANS fighting. I know there ar lots of modern newagey kung fu schools "Claiming" to be traditional, but if you look at the history, all the great masters were hard core fighters. if you not doing that, your not traditional.

Too many traditional schools don't teach fighting. Just a sad fact of life. Follow this board, read the magazines, talk to the masters-- traditionals don't emphasize fighting and they create bizarre rationalizations as to why it's wrong to train like a fighter. Fighting skill is treated as a consequence of MA training, not the emphasis. IMHO it's the wrong attitude to have.

"but if you look at the history, all the great masters were hard core fighters". Re-he-ee-eally, how do you know? Did somebody tell you that? Did that somebody witness that fight? Who were the opponent's? Were they as skilled as the supposable master? Was it an ambush or did the other person have time to prepare to fight? Is it all hearsay and conjecture? Where's the Beef? If it was so hard core in the past why isn't it representated properly now (plenty of opportunity for representation-- MMA, San Shou, Submission Wrestling)?

[dezhen2001]

Mighty B: yup, youve already turned in to a troll mate. :rolleyes:

dawood

[fa_jing]

Where's WaterDragon? :D


C'mon, guys - you've been around long enough. Maybe we just haven't had one of these in a while? If you WANTED to write a troll post, wouldn't it be exactly like this one?

LOL at the KF crowd dissin him at the lion dance - good one.

[MightyB]

I've been waiting for a good flaming troll thread. Even posted flaming inflamatory remarks about Bruce Lee and nothing. Dam_n it! I'm bored. I had one meeting today and nada for the rest of the day!

Dezhen, do I make you question your unrealistic values? Does that make me a troll. Is it because I would rather ski than play a video game about skiing? Experience is the key... experience dispells myth.

Fighters fight, end of story. CMA could be great. It's not. It could be... San Shou and MMA will deliver us from apathy.

[dezhen2001]

hey mate i was just playin! :D but u have to admit -->
San Shou and MMA will deliver us from apathy. DOES sound like a preacher :D

My values are not unrealistic... i regularly train with people who do boxing, muay thai, kicboxing, shorinji kempo, aikido (GOOD aikido) and full contact karate... were all learning how to apply our skills against other systems, no biggie :)

every day i train for around 4 hours, doing stretching, hard qigong (body conditioning) and my wing chun foundation skills (Siu Lim Tao) for around an hour (or more if i can). right now i cant train so often with partners, usually only once or twice a week on top of what i do above. Need chi sau partners though :(

So, is my training unrealistic? Its getting me where i want to go, and i seem to be doing just fine with those i train against. Its hard to combine serious MA training with university studies full time and 2 jobs, but im doing my best.

Am i worried baout competing 'in the ring'? nope. Am i worried about 'self defence'? Nope. Am i worried about learning and understaning my skills principles and applying them against other practitioners and in my daily life? YUP.

no big deal...

dawood

[dezhen2001]

hey didnt realise u used my words in your sig... 1st time thats happened... it took over 2500 posts too :D

dawood

[MightyB]

Dezhen, it sounds like you got a good head on your shoulders and are training pretty realistically.

I just like to toss people around a little on the boards. I do believe in alot of what I write though. I see the value in cross training and competition when a person becomes ready. What I don't like are these cardboard cut out responses people post about other styles and fighting. It seems like trolling, but exposure, questioning, and experience are fundamental to growth as a martial artist. I think that my Sifu is the greatest, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with him all the time. I also really like 7* Praying Mantis (10yrs now) but I in no way think that it's the end all and beat all of martial combat. What I'm saying is that a person has to experience things and come up with their own decisions about combat and life. And, in the end, make it as fun, open, and realistic as possible. You can't do that if you immediately judge everything as inferior to what you're learning or dismiss something with stereotypes.

[dezhen2001]

no problems man, i agree... i just go about it differently thats all...

i trained various martial arts all at various times: (good) karate for 13 years, boxing for 5, muay thai for a few, as well as shorinji kempo and aikido before finding my Sifu, so ive competed and done full contact (knockdown) etc. plenty of times.

for sure in class we usually do chi sau or application drills... thats where i am shown things and try to understand them. then i can apply them however i like outside, no big deal.

again, i dont train to compete - just for my own interest and health, so im not too bothered about all this ring stuff. i get enough sparring with friends and my skill is developing so no problem.

dawood

[yenhoi]

Well the kali guy would fight the kung fu dude and the boxer at the same time, use his unbeatable triangle and 1 step footwork to just step in and break the kung-fu guy's hands elbows knees and ankles, and in the same motion to just throw knives at the boxer and just kill him.

Lol.

Quote dezhen:

it all comes down to experience in applying your skill in a chaotic situation and being able to adapt to what happens.

--

No way man, it hase to do with just using your superior kung-fu to just crush other styles.

[dezhen2001]

i was being subtle ;)

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

Too many traditional schools don't teach fighting. Just a sad fact of life. Follow this board, read the magazines, talk to the masters-- traditionals don't emphasize fighting and they create bizarre rationalizations as to why it's wrong to train like a fighter. Fighting skill is treated as a consequence of MA training, not the emphasis. IMHO it's the wrong attitude to have.

Reply]
Reguardles of what they "Call themselves" if they are not fight oriented, they are NOT Traditional!!! They are new age modern and incomplete.

"but if you look at the history, all the great masters were hard core fighters". Re-he-ee-eally, how do you know? Did somebody tell you that? Did that somebody witness that fight? Who were the opponent's? Were they as skilled as the supposable master? Was it an ambush or did the other person have time to prepare to fight? Is it all hearsay and conjecture? Where's the Beef?

Reply]
All the legands, all the books everything I have ever seen sugjest the arts were born out of brutal combat. Take my style, Tai Tzu Chang Chaun for instance. The founder was abrutal war loard who conquered FIVE neigboring states, thus uniting them into his empire. Don't tell me a sucsesssful warlord like that couldn't fight. It's not reasonable to bevieve he was just a wuss interested in "Enlightenment".

If it was so hard core in the past why isn't it representated properly now (plenty of opportunity for representation-- MMA, San Shou, Submission Wrestling)?

Reply]
I'm not sure. I think part of it has to do with the fact that fighting was considered an under society, criminal sort of thing, and all the health and fitness stuff was just a craze to market to the upper class and thier $$$. it was so succsessful, that it sort of buried the real Traditional arts like a title wave crashing onto the beach.

In the USA, we like fighting, we respect fighters, so it prospered more, where as in China, it died, or went under ground. I think it is slowly comming back as they become more competitive with us, but it's going to take time.

[MightyB]

The decline of traditional martial arts school's value as a fighting form is a recent thing due to peace. Without competition or life and death struggles, the arts decline into acts of showmanship and feats of strength. This is in an effort to attract students and their money. When you start talking about a style's start, you are talking about different times and I would say that any art at those times and under those circumstances is lightyears beyond anything that we've come to know and is represented by the modern art in name only.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I have to aggree there. That is why I am always looking for the ORIGINAL forms. At least they contain the raw movement for a truly effective combat system. It's kind of like a "Compressed .Zip file". If you can figr out how to extract it, you can use it.

In the absence of war, I think we need to look to modern competiotns, like Kuo Shou or anything that lets you use a large amount of your arsenal, with minimal protective gear and few rules.

[Scythe]

Royal dragon: I agree with your statement on forms, Have you ever looked at Saam chin?

[Golden Arms]

We train sparring and techniques on a resisting opponent EVERY night that we do a class. Several people in the school are also bouncers, security, police officers, formers grapplers, etc. Yet we have no more problems using our styles techniques and applying the movements under pressure than a boxer or grappler. IMHO, the key is being in good condition, regular practice, PATIENCE, and the like. What I dont understand is why any kung fu schools DONT have you work with a resisting opponent. The way I learned it, the whole reason that kung fu is not taught with single clear definitions of applications, is because when you start working with other people, you start to just see them for yourself as you advance, and depending on your body type, power generation, stance, etc, these applications could vary completely even though they may be working off of the same basic movement..."tiger coming down the mountain" for example, can be a couple strikes, a throw, and elbow technique followed by a throw, the beginning of a stand up armbar or grapple, etc... Not sure why some schools dont spar, but if you do, and you stick to your kung fu, it works just fine, regardless of format...

[dezhen2001]

when you start working with other people, you start to just see them for yourself as you advance, and depending on your body type, power generation, stance, etc, these applications could vary completely even though they may be working off of the same basic movement... agree totally! my wing chun is not my sihings wing chun which is not sifus wing chun - but its still wing chun skill :)

dawood

[Golden Arms]

I hate to say this because it is not really 'Politically Correct', but with fighting, and especially kung fu, the rule "there are no bad teachers, only bad students" is more often true than not. If you dont know how to fight, you should jump into a ring, or play with someone that will school you repeatedly until you start to figure out how a fight works in the first place. Then start trying to use your kung fu, and if you think it sucks, dont learn it, learn something you like. Also, most people on here talk of the major weakness of the "internal styles" and how they dont spar, etc. Well, the natural progression for many talented "internalist" fighters, was to learn how to fight, kung fu or otherwise, and THEN LEARN the internal arts, after they already knew how fighting worked. This could be compared to something like the following:

A person that has never used a sword is a threat with a very sharp blade. A person that has trained to use weapons..even dummy weapons for 10 years that is given a sharp blade is someone you just dont 'F' with. Same idea...if you already know how to punch, take a hit, are not clumsy anymore, know your right from left, how to throw and use different ranges, then an internal art is just like forging yourself into a much nastier self. But taking high level skills without developing your base is like building a skyscraper on sawdust. Its just not going to stand up in the wind, let alone a storm.