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Rage
12-05-2000, 07:04 AM
I'm new here and I just wanted to get some overall opinions. Just recently I have become fascinated with Kung Fu, almost everything about it. I have tried looking for certain styles but there are so many that provide different uses that I have a hard time choosing. I've narrowed it down to pretty much Northern Shaolin. Could anyone give me some insight on some of the various Northern Shaolin styles? I would appreciate it a lot.

Kung Lek
12-05-2000, 06:15 PM
Hi-

There are five main "families" of Northern Shaolin Kung Fu.

Cha and Hong are the most prevalent today.
(Hong being Sil Lum).

Bak Sil Lum or North Shaolin of Kuo Yuo Cheong is said to be most intact with its system maintained in entirety. it contains two preliminary sets and 10 core sets.
The system takes about 5 to 10 years to learn dependent upon the students adeptness and about another 5 or 10 years to gain mastery of.

Bak Sil Lum is the system I am most familiar with as it is the Northern system my Si fu is giving me.
It is quite difficult to perform even the 2 beginner core sets (Tun Ta and Moi Fa) but there is a lot of info that is good in the prelim sets which are Lien Bo Chuan and Tan Tui (10 row).
Lien Bo and Tan Tui introduce the practitioner/student to some of the concepts held further into the system.

The sets are performed fast and fluidly and contain many difficult moves. Tun Ta is the beginner core set and you are introduced to the Tornado kick in it (right off the hop!) this kick is an aerial 360 degree inside crescent kick.
It also contains front inside broom sweep followed by back broom sweep.

So, it is a fairly demanding system of Kung Fu when measured against other systems.

Many of the techniques in Bak Sil Lum are "disregarded" by other ma practitioners because of the level of difficulty but over time North Shaolin is really quite combat effective.

When one learns it along with a "shorthand" system, you can acquire quite the arsenal of fighting techniques.

There are of course other northern systems but I cannot speak to them as I do not practice them.

peace

Kung Lek

Ironpig
12-05-2000, 06:58 PM
Wow, its great to hear another northern style practitioner talk about thier system and mention exactly the same sets and principles!

I also study Bak Sil Lum, also in the lineage of Kuo Yuo Cheong, the only difference between what Kung Lek posted and the version that I practice is out Tan Tui is 12 step.

He is right about it not being easy and taking a long time. The time frame he stated seems reasonable to me...im only at the beginning sets through Mei Hua, working on basics and focus in training..

Thanks for making my day Kung Lek!

IronPig

ShaolinMantis
12-05-2000, 07:47 PM
Greetings

I am in agreement with Kung Lek & Iron Pig.
As with Iron Pig I also learned 12 step Tan Tui.

the rest is the same.

Our training sets go:

Ling Po
Small Circle fist
Lohan 1
Shaolin 6
Shaolin 7

The 10 Main sets increase Shaolin 1-10 add complex moves with each set. The sets themselves are not learned 1 - 10 but more like #6, #7, #5, #4, #2, #3, #10... I do not remember the exat order but #9 is learned last.

We combine this long arm style with Mantis training, both 7 star & Taiji Mantis to round out our training.

MonkeySlap Too
12-05-2000, 07:59 PM
The 'Northern Shaolin' I learned isn't really Shaolin, but schools of Long Fist. The Long Fist is from the Central Nanking institute. Yang Jwing Ming has a good book on the style. I learned from another guy from Taiwan. Not my major style though, haven't practiced it in years.

I have also been exposed to Mei Hua or Plum Blossom style from my Shuai Chiao teacher. He described plum blossom as a 'villiage art' with an emphasis on blades and blunt weapons. Empty hand being a last resort.

Again, the long fist material I learned early on, and has not been my 'major' so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Cheers. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Jaguar Wong
12-05-2000, 08:13 PM
If it ain't 10 road, it ain't worth it's salt. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif j/k, my sifu started teaching my brother and I the 10 road, but he switched to the 12 road because it seemed more systematic and easier to teach larger groups. He recently said, "screw it", and started us on the 10 road again (man the rust is pretty thick on my 10 road /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

My school also does the same prelim sets as Shaolin Mantis:

Lohan 1
Lien bo (ling po)
Small circular fist

Then we start the core sets. The order I learned them in was:

6, 7, 8, 4, 5, 1 (he skipped a few of us ahead for personal reasons /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), 9. I just finished 9 a few weeks ago, and I'm gonna start 2 or 3 next. I'm not sure which. He's going to wait for a while before he teaches it, though. That's cool, cause 1 and 9 are still kickin' my butt.

I was curious when you guys started weapons in your schools. I learned some staff stuff (basic set, plus Fire and Water staff set) after lien bo, and after small circular fist I started the spear. I'm pretty slow when it comes to weapons, because I wanted the empty hand stuff first, so right now, I only know a few staff sets, a spear set, a heavy staff set (we do that with the Kwan Do, or Monk Spade) and a broadsword set. I've been doing this for about 6 years now, and there are a few guys (been there between 2-4 years) at the school that aren't as far with the empty hand sets, but know pretty much the same weapons as I do (I don't really complain about stuff like that, unless they have an ego about it /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

Shaolin Mantis,
Bei Shaolin sounds familiar. Isn't that where Sifu French teaches? We also incorporate 7* and Tai Chi Praying Mantis as a part of our cirriculum. the styles really blend well to enhance the fighting abilities. Of course there's also Tai Chi/Chi Gung as well as a couple of other internal styles. So we're not all riled up and aggressive all the time /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

Ironpig
12-05-2000, 09:52 PM
I was told that ten step Tan Tui is the muslim version of the set. The Shaolin Monks altered the set to add two additional lines and stramline the training regimen. For a good discussion on other Muslim styles try:

http://www.taklamakan.org/uighur-l/archive/6_5_1.html

Its a discussion about Muslims in China, they mention the martial styles as well.

Here are the sets taught in the school I go to:

Our beginning sets are:

Shr Ehr Lu Tan Twei - 12 Line Spring Leg
Lien Bu Chuan - Continuos Step Fist

the ten core sets are:

Duan Da Chuan - Short Hit Fist
Mei Hua Chuan - Plum Flower Fist
Ba Bu Chuan - Shuffle Step Fist
Shuan Shin Chuan - Pierce Heart Fist
Wu Yi Chuan - Martial Art Fist
Kai Menn Chuan - Open Gate Fist
Ling Chiu Chuan - Leading Fist
Dso Ma Chuan - Seated Horse Fist
Lien Miann - Continuity Fist
Shu Fa Chuan - Skill and Technique Fist

The four basic weapons, broad sword, staff, straight sword and spear are taught after a handset.

so starting with Lien Bu, you learn broadsword, then Duan Da Chuan, then staff, then mei hua chuan, then straight sword, then Ba Bu Chuan, then Spear

That gets you through the four basic weapons.

And that is the beginning of the curriculum within our school.

I guess that different schools teach the sets in different order.

Just a few pennies from a pig.

IronPig

Kung Lek
12-05-2000, 10:24 PM
Hi-
IronPig, most schools that teach the core sets of Bak Sil Lum will teach them in the order of

Lien Bo
Tan Tui

shaolin #6,7,8,4,5,1,2,3,9,10

some teachers will include a weapon set between the hand sets so as to not confuse the essence of the patterns for the student.
also, there may be a slight variation in the way the forms are taught in sequence due to individual reckoning.

usually though you learn the short sets first IE: 6,7,8, (tun da, moif, bot bo)then a little bit longer sets, 4 and 5 (chum sam, Mo I) and then the long sets 1,2 nad 3 and then the most difficult sets 9 and 10.

cantonese and mandarin names differ slightly and even some of the aspects of the forms and the spirit they are performed with differs from schoo to school, but I think that the overall essence exists in all forms of all schools of Bak Sil Lum.

Lien Bo is a seperate set that Master Kuo Yuo Cheong included in the curriculum and in fact gave this set to the chinese military as its basic martial training routine. The ,military of the pRC still to this day uses the Lien Bo set as given them by Master Kuo Yuo Cheong (by all indications of the material I have read on the matter).

Tan Tui is indeed a muslim originating set and was included with the system.
I am not familiar with 12 row and have only been taught 10 row by my Si Fu.

The 10 core sets are all Shaolin though through and through.
It really is a great system and the adept at this Shaolin Art is doing some real good Kung Fu.

Watching my Si Fu perform the North Shaolin stuff is real neat as he is a Master of the system after all and the form is exceptional as are the applications.

North Shaolin does include some of the more "unusual" techniques in application that is for sure."steal a step" for instance as found in Moi Fa is a very interesting movement and difficult to get a handle on in application.

It is good to see you all that practice this system, I know from personal experience that to do North Shaolin is no small undertaking in the world of MA practice. Thos of you who have chosen to do so have chosen one of the more difficult systems to become good at.

Good Luck and Train Hard, I'm still learning and loving it!

peace

Kung Lek

Buby
12-05-2000, 11:36 PM
You mentioned five families of Northern Shaolin, but only mentioned two. Would it be to much to ask for the other three? What are the differences? Are they different styles of northern shaolin? Would these be the styles that are/were practiced by the monks(ex.shi yan ming, shi goulin, shi de yang or monks of the past)?

Please give as much info as possible. I apologize if you feel that I'm asking for to much.

Thanks in advance,

Buby

Kung Lek
12-06-2000, 12:20 AM
Hi buby-

the five main stems are Wa, Fa, Pao, Cha and Hong (Hung or Shaolin).

cha is also known as ZhaQuan and there are aspects of this system taught in and around Shaolin temple today.

I believe that the ZhaQuan or Cha system of north Shaolin contains "small red clan fist" and "large red clan fist" and a few ohter forms, not 100% certain of what they are but it is this style of north shaolin that has been modified into the contemporary Wu Shu routines we see today. So the "monks" at the temple study this long fist style along with modern wu shu and chi kung as well as buddhism from a strictly philosophical standpoint.

reason being that Buddhism is accepted as a philosophical study in communist china but not religious buddhism. communism as a philosophy does not tolerate religion to much.

The Hong (Hung or Shaolin) style of North Shaolin is the most complete of the five stems and still contains all the sets as they were originally with the addition of sets and weapons sets.

This means that the 10 core forms are as they evern were in essence.

The other three stems, Wa, Fa and Pao are said to have been diminished in content due to masters dying or being killed after the revolution and so on and not having disciples to pass on the knowledge.

These three are the hardest to find and are missing sets in the curriculum.

There may be teachers out there who know what they know of these systems and they may have grown them in their own schools and included material to make up for the missing sets.

I really am just a beginner in this art and do not have a whole lot of information about the other stems of North Shaolin.
So I cannot speak to them in a full way.

I've only been doing Bak Sil Lum for about 6 years
and I can't say I know a lot about it either! ha ha.

But anyway, those are the other branches of north Shaolin and what little information I know of them.

peace

Kung Lek

Shaolin Master
12-06-2000, 01:24 AM
5 Northern Systems

This has been covered before in the Cha kuen (Zha Quan) thread....look there all the answers you shall find and if there are more questions after then ask.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

Buby
12-06-2000, 07:07 PM
Kung Lek - Thanks for your time and info, it's truely appreciated.

Shaolin Master- Thanks for pointing me to the cha thread. If you don't mind me asking, What are the differences between the 5 branches? Where all 5 branches taught in the shaolin temple at the same time or were they taught in different periods of shaolin?

Thanks,

-Buby

[This message was edited by Buby on 12-07-00 at 11:22 AM.]

12-06-2000, 07:20 PM
Jaguar Wong :
Are you with the Lohan School of shaolin?

"FuRenChu - was ShaolinMantis"

Jaguar Wong
12-07-2000, 02:38 AM
FuRenChu,
Why, yes....Yes I am :)

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

beiquan
12-07-2000, 03:46 AM
i also practice the bei shaolin system of gu ru zhang, good to see so many other practitioners here...

as stated before, this is a very physically challenging style, but well worth learning. i am 6'4" and skinny, and i feel that for my body type this is an ideal style.

i learned the forms in the order lian bu, tan tui, 6, 7, 8, 1, 4, 5; i think this was because i could do the splits by the time i finished #8 and my sifu was teaching #1 to another student at the time. also, as far as weapons, we usually start with broadsword or pole (not 9 province though, our beginnign pole set is a mantis set called 5th son pole).

i have a couple question for the others here who practice this style:

-in our #5, right before the jumping side kick, we do (from cat stance) roundhouse kick, double palm strike, 360 sweep. i have seen other schools do this form with a front kick instead of roundhouse kick, just wondering how you guys do this sequence. actually we do a roundhouse kick elsewhere in the form too, towards the end; i haven't seen this kick in any other of the forms.

-do any of you learn the names of the moves in the forms? i have seen, for example, in wing lam's book on #7, he gives the names at the end; however, my sifu only knows the names of a few of the moves (i know my si-gung knows but i have never had a chance to ask him). maybe this is "secret" info or something...

-do you guys practice the 18 hands? we do them, however, i have seen the wing lam video where he teaches the 18 hands as a "form"; in our school they are just 18 different techniques which are not linked together.

looking forward to some discussion
beiquan

PS Jaguar - i think i've visited your school (sort of). i was in Vegas a few weeks ago with my sifu, si-gung, and some classmates (we were competing in a strange karate tournament in Primm) anyway, we stopped by a Lohan/northern shaolin/praying mantis school, because my sifu and sigung know the teacher there, but no one was home :(... can't imagine there are too many other lohan schools in las vegas

[This message was edited by beiquan on 12-07-00 at 08:02 PM.]

cha kuen
12-07-2000, 11:39 AM
Cha kuen is another famous northern shaolin style. I haven't seen too many sifus in the States teaching it. Jason Tsou, Paul Eng, Wong Jack Man and Master Zhang know sets from the cha kuen style. They are different from the hong or shaolin style. I've learned #6 and #7 from the Hong or shaolin style. I'd have to say that the Cha Kuen forms that I have learned are more advanced and smoother.

Ironpig
12-07-2000, 05:56 PM
BeiQuan:

Yes, we learn the names of movements in the forms. Like "kicking up dust" "suppress the earth""monk carries the pole""cannon mounted on a beam" and so on. It can be confusing to learn the names with the form.

We practice individual "hand techniques", but I have never heard it called "18 hands". Maybe I am not advanced enough in the system.

I have learned Tan Tui, Lien Bu, Darn Dao, Duan Da Chuan, king of nine provinces staff,Mei Hua chuan (with every set the original sets seem smaller)

I have not heard them numbered before like that.

My staff set is out of order for us, normally it is Sil Lum Gunn, or "shaolin staff", which I have been told is fairly common to the style.

I have a web page with my notes on it, but I think it is fairly incomplete, as I am only a junior student. ;) and I would like to get better information on it before making it available to the world.

I really appreciate the history lessons being posted lately in this and other forums. Especially the history of the forms from the Hung Ga practitioners and northern shaolin people.

Heh, I think I answered some of your questions.

Just some more pennies from a pig

IronPig

ShaolinMantis
12-08-2000, 02:09 AM
Jaguar Wong :
Ah I thought so. I was not sure if your Sifu was still teaching. Good that he is. Oh BTW that would make me your Sibak. Is your school going to Lomita-shaolin school this weekend? Just curious.

you can reply offline so not to bore everyone

sibak@shao-lin-dao.com

ShaolinMantis-I
aka FuRenChu

ShaolinMantis-I

NorthernShaolin
12-09-2000, 10:25 AM
It is exciting to see so many people practicing Northern Shaolin. We are all cousins, brothers and uncles. I would like to share some info about our style that I have obtained over the past 35 years.

In 1902 in Chiang Su Province, Kuo Yu Chang was first introduced to Northern Shaolin by his father, Kuo Li Chih, and he started to learn 10 row tam tui. However, two years later, at the age of 14 years old, his father past away before KYC could finish. In his death bed, he told KYC to finish his school and then to seek out his classmate, Yim Chi Wen in Shantung province, and finish learning Northern Shaolin. KYC could not wait and left school two years later at the age of 16 and went to seek out Yim Chi Wen (nickname Great Spear Yim). For the next eleven years he and his cousin Pa Ching Hsiang learned from Great Spear Yim. KYC returned home only to find his mother passed away.

Originally KYC learned the 10 Northern Shaolin sets in its numerical order, one to ten. Before Kuo Yu Chang learned the 10 Northern Shaolin sets they were known by their names only and were not numbered. Many of the students got confused and so the sets were referred by numbers as they learned them. Hence the first set they learned in the series was number one because the name, Open Door, implies that the set is an introduction to the style and Northern Shaolin is about using various leg techniques. What better way to be introduced to the style than to learn all the kicking methods in the style. As all of you are aware there are 36 kicks in this set. Each set has a specific name because the essence of the set is demonstrating specific attacking techniques of the style. For example, in number four, Chest Attacks, the set teaches one how to attack the opponent’s center line. In number two , lead the way, it demonstrating how to attack your opponent by side stepping , angling your attacks and sliding into your opponent.

It was not until KYC started teaching in KwangTung in 1929 that he realized the his students were having a difficult time learning NSL. He then reorganized the sequence of teaching the sets and came up with the current sequence of 6,7,8,5,4 1,2,3,9 and then 10. KYC also added Lien Bo set (from Wu Chih Ch’ing) which was a standard set in the National Martial Arts Provincial schools and since KYC was one of the head Instructors, he added it to his curriculum. His top two disciples Lung Tzu Hsaing and Yim Shan Wu continued the sequence. YSW developed his own set, Sil Wah which is patterned after Ching Wu’s Kung Lic, and added to our current curriculum. Wong Jack learned from YSW and was the first to bring the NSL to North America. Because Wong Jack was affiliated with Ching Wu Association he replaced 10 row tam tui with Ching Wu standard 12 row. He also added to the curriculum some of Ching Wu’s sets such as NSL Lo Han, and other various weapons. Over a period of 36 years he has modified the sequence order to 6,7,8,5, 4, 3,2,1, 9,10.

The NSL sets are divided into two levels with 6,7,8,5,4 composing the lower level and 1,2,3,9,and 10 consisting the upper level. Over 50 years ago many NSL disciples regarded the upper level sets as their prized sets and always demonstrated them. Today we see NSL students demonstrate mostly the lower sets.

The 18 hands form is a set that is usually taught after the ten NSL sets are taught. Most NSL students were glad that they finished the 10 sets and felt no need to learn the 18 hands set since it was just a repeat of techniques from the 10 NSL sets. Most of YSW students regarded the 18 hand set as KYC’s favorite techniques and that he composed it to capture the essence of NSL. Many disciples believe this because there are no records or documentation on this set before KYC ‘s time. Personally, I feel if you are given a chance to learn it, do it because if what they believe is true then we, who are living today, would at least have an insight of what techniques KYC preferred.

Hope this will give everyone some reasonable historical background of why sets are taught in a certain sequence. I believe it all depends on when your sifu learned from who and during what time period. Almost everyone here in the North America can trace their heritage to two sources: Wong Jack (who taught Paul Eng, Kam Yuan, Wing Lam, who later went to YSW in HK to finish, and Peter Ralston) or Ma Ching Fung (whom has since has stopped teaching NSL and Lo Han for a long while). Most of Lung’s disciples are in Hong Kong with a few of them living in the USA.

As for the five northern stem styles, it is believed that they were all taught at the temple at the same time. Remember the 10 sets of NSL are composed of what are regarded as the best techniques from these five styles.

Hung style originally had six sets that were based on Tsung Tai Jo style. It was regarded as a fierce style that appeared hard and explosive in power in comparison to the other four styles.

Pao style originated in the yellow river valley and was very similar to Hung style. This style had 10 sets and only five sets were fully documented in manuals. And uses suppleness as its core and hardness as its application

Wah style originated in the Yellow River Valley in Hopei and Shantung provinces. It is characterized by its long strides, low stances, high kicks with well connected movements. The style had 12 hand sets which only 4 sets are documented and possibly only six hand sets exist today.

Hua style or Flower style consist of rapid altercations. The stances and strides are shorter than Wah and Ch’a but like Ch’a and Wah, it requires flexibility, agile and suppleness. The style was known to be close fighting techniques and originated in the Yellow River Valley. It also had 10 hand sets but only four survived because they are documented.

Ch’a style is the most popular in China today and is the most complete within China. The stances are not as low as Wah but are lower than Hung, Pao and Hua. Techniques are graceful, continuous and generates its power on the same principles as Wah style.

Since the 1700’s Ch’a Style has divided into three branches with each having 10 sets:
Chang Branch : Chang Shi is the founder of this branch and is known for being quick, fast, compact, agile and has a reputation as being good for defense after the Ching Dynasty, Chang Hsi Yen and Chang Chen Fang taught this branch in Honan Province.

Yang Branch: This branch is known for it’s upright stances, and graceful moves. For many years the branch was represented by Yang Hong Xiu who was born in 1864. Later he taught Wang Tzu Ping and Chen Chan Sheng who shared the style with Kuo Yu Chang. Yim Shan Wu taught the Ch’a style but in his later years stopped teaching the style save one set, number four. Sets number four and number six are the most popular because it is thought that these two sets contained the best fighting techniques.

Li Branch: This branch is known to be more powerful than the other two. It is known for its continuous and masculine techniques and is represented by Li Szu Chu who taught at the Ching Wu Associations in Shanghai and Kwangchow.


Hope this helps,

:cool: :) :)

reemul
12-09-2000, 01:36 PM
Ling Mo Fa QI has survived entirely intact. It is however slowly rising from obscurity. It takes a bit longer to achieve mastery then the previously mentioned system.

This system is Northern Shaolin Tiger system of the Ling family. The "Mo" in the name is representative of the Mohist (a retired military class) of which resided in the Honan provice since
before bodhi dharma showed up. This system predates the Black tiger system, and the two are not the same. Ling Mo Fa Qi encompasses external, internal and weapons and consists of form sets of shaolin chuan, chang chuan, and tai chi chuan exclussive to this particular system.

Kung Lek
12-09-2000, 07:57 PM
Hi-
as I stated, having only 6 years of experience with North Shaolin, my knowledge is not so robust.
I make no claims to knowledge of northern Shaolin in a full way at all.
However, this is a really great thread with a lot of really good information. Wow! I'm eatin' this stuff up! ha ha.

Reemul- Are you a practitioner of Shantung Black Tiger? I am curious about this system in a superficial way in that I have only ever seen a single book on the system.

NorthernShaolin- That is some comprehensive information you have given, thanks! I always enjoy a read on Master Kuo Yuo Cheong, truly a great Practitioner in the timeline!

peace

Kung Lek

NorthernShaolin
12-10-2000, 09:58 PM
Beiguan: I once asked my sifu why our sets do not contain round house kicks, especially in number one. He stated that it was determined in the distance past history, this particular kick was not effective as compared to the other various kicks in CMA and was thus not incorperated into our sets. Today we see this kick in other martial arts such as karate and TKD but not really in CMA.

I remember one of my students telling me in the mid 1970’s that he had visited Johnny Sole, who was one of Yim Shan Wu last students, and he witness these kicks in number 5. When he asks why the change, the answer he was given at that time was that TKD kicks were added to some sets to appeal to tournment competition in the L.A. area.

In response to this, it has always been an acceptable tradition that any qualified master of the NSL style can add but never eliminate moves from a NSL set. Usually a master would add one or two moves to his favorite set. Orininally all 10 sets were of the same length but as you can see many past masters favored numbers 3, 2, and 10.

Names of the moves were originally taught as one learns the set, just like Iron Pig is learning it. And he is right, many students get confused and really do not learn the moves correctly because they concentrate on the names. Today many sifus just want to make sure our sets are passed to the next generation and tend to forget about teaching the names of the moves.

Another reason the names are not transmitted is because many of the traditional names are lost and insteat very descriptive names are used such as Raise left arm, strike with right punch in a right bow stance. However, some fancy names did survive and were handed down. What I found is that techniques with the fancy names usually were the very simple or plain techniques.

Listed below is the names for number 5 as document from Lung Tzu Hsing manual, HK, (late1940?).

Shaolin Number Five - Military Move

Name of Technique
1. Ravens Spreads Its Wings
2. Seven Star Fist
3. Second Brother Carries up the Hill
4. Pair Fist, Form a Flower, Single Hook Hand (Right Palm)
5. Cross Kick (Right Hand Slaps Left Foot)
6. Vicious Tiger Comes Out of Mountain Crouches and Grabs Leg (Single Hook Hand)
7. Grab Hand, Attack level Fist (Left Bow)
8. Spike the Ground, Pick an Onion
9. Turn the Body Left, Left Stomp Kick (Green Dragon Whips Its Tail), Right Kick(Toe), Sit on Horse & Strike Tiger
10. Step Up, March Fist, Hook Step, Three Consective Steps
11. Turn the Body, Spike the Ground, Pick the Onion
12. Left and Right Back Step, Attack Fist (Three Consective Steps)
13. Loosen Hand, Grab Leg with Fish Hook
14. Turn the Body Quickly Around, Hook Hand, Greet the Face Palm (Left Bow Step)
Also Called Phoenix Turns Around Quickly like a Tornado
15. Turn Back the Body, Hands Out with Left Stomp Foot
16. Grab Hand, Attack Level Fist (Left Hand P'ao Fist, Left Bow Step)
17. Right Single Circle Kick
18. Left Single Circle Kick
19. Double Raise Kick
19a Rear Basin Kick
20. Tornado Kick
21. Spike the Ground, Pick Onion
22. Green Dragon Whips Its Tail (Heel)
22b.Turn Back, Grab Hand Attack Level Fist.
23. Spike Ground, Pick Onion
24. Take Body, Jump & Grab Leg, Block & Hit
25. Steal a Step, Grab Hand, Right Stomp Kick
26. Pull Hand, Break Leg (Hook Shave Kick)
27. Shake Leg, Hands Grab Papa (Close Little Door)
28. Right Slaps, Left Wipes, Fall to the Ground, Double Push Palms(Right Bow)
29. Left Foot Back Sweep
30. Grab Hand, Attack Level Fist (Left Bow)
31. Right Cross Kick (Raise Right Foot)
32. Shake Foot, Ready for Stomp Kick (Raise Left Foot) Also Called White Horse Offers Its Hoof
33. Grab Hand, Attack Level Fist
34. Right Cross Kick
35. Turn Back the Body, Hook Step, Block & Hit (Left Bow) (Yim’s disciples do this)
35a Turn Back the Body, Lion Opens Its Big Mouth (Ling’s disciples do this instead of #35)
36. Double Lift Clock, Block Kick
37. Left Hook Strike Shape (Yim’s disciples do this)
37a Lion Opens Its Big Mouth (Lung’s disciples do this instead of #37)
38. Lift Fist Empty Kick, Suddenly Kick Forward, Strike Fist, Right HookStep
39. Turn Back the Body, Chop Fist, Left Sustain Step
40. Turn Back the Body, Left Stomp Kick, Also called Green Dragon Whips ItsTail
41. Right Step Up,Sit on Horse & Strike
42. Left Step Up, Sit on Horse & Strike
43. Turn Body, Form a Flower & Sit in Bowl (Front Palms Hook)
44. Grab Body, Fall to Ground, Double Fists Seven Star
45. Back Step, Through the Palm, Close Form

Jaguar Wong: When you state that you do a heavy staff set, I assuming that it is a very long set. It is not the usual NSL staff set, nine island, but the set’s name is called Gound Demon Staff set which is usually taught after Fire and Water Staff sparring set. These two sets came from Sun Yu Fung via Ma Ching Fung, via Wong Jack Man.


:) :) :cool:

beiquan
12-10-2000, 10:33 PM
wow, another great post. that's very interesting about the 18 hands, i had not heard that before. it seems like the wong jack man lineage has a great deal of information about the history of this style, hopefully someday they will choose to make it public for the rest of us :)

i was not aware that wing lam was a student of his, i had always heard that he claimed to be a student of yim shang mo?!

our school's lineage is actually from johnny so, the gentleman which your classmante described visiting, so no wonder we do the roundhouse kicks :)

once again, thanks for sharing this information!

peace
beiquan

[This message was edited by beiquan on 12-11-00 at 02:49 PM.]

Ironpig
12-10-2000, 10:47 PM
Hmmmm

I noticed that none of the sets I know have a round house kick in them. I was told a similiar thing about them not being included in the sets, there is a side rising heel kick which is similiar to a roundhouse in the kick of nine provinces staff set..but it still is a heel kick

just a few more pennies from a pig

IronPig

Jaguar Wong
12-10-2000, 10:50 PM
Yes it is a very long set, and yes, I did learn it after the Fire/Water two man set :) I also learned the Northern Long staff (the staff is the normal size, but the set is long :)) around that time as well. I'm not sure which would be considered the Ground Demon set, cause I'm not all that knowledgable of the real names. The long staff set has some ground rolling in it, but the heavy staff has some moves where you plant one end of the staff into the ground. So which one is the Ground Demon set?

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

mantis108
12-10-2000, 11:15 PM
NorternShaolin,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. If I may post a question. Where would Gung Lik Kune and Jeet Kune fit in the NSL system. These sets are said to be taught in the Ching Wu Schools among other forms. Many Mantis practitioner who took Mantis had to take these prior to the Mantis forms. What is your view on taking these first? If you don't mind also sharing your view on the concepts and techniques that formulate these 2 forms.

I have learned both sets. The applications that I have learned are some what different from Dr Yang's. Anyway just like to get your opinions on them. Appreciate your comments and enjoy your posts.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

reemul
12-11-2000, 05:58 AM
I think you misread my post, but to answer your
question, No I don't study Black Tiger, here is what I wrote:

>Ling Mo Fa QI has survived entirely intact. It is however slowly rising from obscurity.It takes a bit longer to achieve mastery then the previously mentioned system.This system is Northern Shaolin Tiger system of the Ling family. The "Mo" in the
name is representative of the Mohist (a retired military class) of which resided in the Honan provice since before bodhi dharma showed up. This system predates the Black tiger system, and
the two are not the same. Ling Mo Fa Qi encompasses external, internal and weapons and consists of form sets of shaolin chuan, chang chuan, and tai chi chuan exclussive to this particular system.

As the passage says our system predates Shang tung
Black Tiger and they are not the same. There are no books on our system either(sorry) Wu fut Ling was head of the Fukien monastary before leaving China, however, as stated this is a northern system. The Lings left the Shaolin Temple at Honan during the cultural revolution and took residence at Fukien. They subsiqently left the country haveing been targeting for assination by the government

Shaolin Master
12-11-2000, 07:16 AM
-Songshan Shaolin did not practice the so called 'Northern Shaolin' System.
-18 Hands contain a single routine (2 lines only to the left then back again) and a Dui Lien, 2-man dual practice set [Thus practicing single techniques maybe from here].
-Of the 5, Pao Quan & Hong Quan are Shaolin Temple originated/Descended arts. The others are not so related (may have been influenced through time but what hasn't but not a direct consequence of shaolin).
-The Bei Shaolin System that all are practicing is a culmination of those 5 arts but not necessarily a temple development. In Olden times many arts were developed by gathering masters of differing styles and composing the essence of them into a system.
-Other Northern Arts include
Chuo Jiao
Fan Zi Men
Duan Quan
PikuaZhang
TongbeiQuan
Shaolin Specific
Da Jing Gang Quan
Wu Zi Quan
Lohan Quan
TanglangQuan
etc...........

- Hua Quan has 12 Routines 4 documented by GrandMaster Cai Long Yun, which many proclaim only that many remain...however this is not so.
- Zha Quan has 10 Routines and most popular.
- Hong Quan exists in its entirety. The Songshan SHaolin Hong Quan is significantly different!!!
- Hua (Flower) only has 4 Sets but are very long and contain northern and southern flavoured techniques.As mentioned originated in HuangHe valley regions.
- Pou Quan 10 Sets in Tact. More Similar to Songshan Shaolin than the other 3 (ie. Other than Hong Quan).

NSL Staff Set 9 Islands...hehe I think it is best known as 9 Provinces Staff..

Reemul,
Could you put 'Ling Mo Fa Qi' into mandarin or translate it sounds peculiar as a martial name....Fujian Shaolin Temple???!What? if any even in passing it would be in the Fujian Historical Records.


Respects
Shi Chan Long

Brad
12-11-2000, 08:37 AM
Is Fukien Temple the Southern Shaolin Temple? My geography isn't all that great.

reemul
12-11-2000, 09:18 AM
In reference to "Ling Mo Fa QI" loosley traslated
(my understanding which is susceptible to error)it is "Ling Mo organization". That is what it is called today. Ling being the family name, Mo haveing ties to Mohinst philosophy, which by the way, some of its philosophy was adopted by Toaist and Confucius schools and. To be honest I forgot what the Fa Qi traslation is, but we get organization from tong, which is generally left off.

Kung Lek
12-11-2000, 05:27 PM
Hi-
brad, Fukien (Fujian) is the reputed site of the Southern Sil Lum(Shaolin) Temple.
The pRC claims to have unearthed the remains of this temple but it is still debatable, even in the light of the "discovery" if indeed there really was a southern shaolin temple.

as you know or may have heard, there are many temples "associated" with Shaolin in henan at Mount Song.
The northern Temple at song shan(mount sung) is the only irrefutable Shaolin temple.

Many of the other temples such as WuDang shan and emei shan are often times mistakenly called shaolin because the shaolin shared knowledge with these Taoist temples and the Taoist temples reciprocated with sharing knowledge of their own.

As you may also know there are strong ties betwenn ch'an buddhism (the buddhism practiced by the Shaolin) and Taoism. This tie between them may be the cause of the mistaken associations beyond what they really were.

peace

Kung Lek

NorthernShaolin
12-11-2000, 09:09 PM
ShaolinMaster: Thank you for the updated info. As for 9 island- guess I better get another dictionary. Thank you again.

Beiquan: To clarify about Wing Lam, he first learned southern Shaolin, Hung Gar, and his classmate is Y.C. Wong. When Wing Lam arrived in the SF Area, he joined the Ching Wu School and started to learn Northern Shaolin from Wong Jack about 1967. He was willing to give up his southern style for northern. When Y.C. Wong appeared in the area about 1968-69, Wing Lam joined him in a demo which was promoting Y.C. Wong’s grand opening of his school and southern Shaolin. Protocol was violated in the eyes of Wong Jack and thus Wing Lam was strongly advised to leave Ching Wu. Wing Lam made plans to return to HK and learn from Wong Jack’s teacher, Yim Shan Wu. Wing Lam did not return to the states until 1971-72 and open his own school in San Francisco. Is there still bad blood? I do not think so. Wing Lam has tremulous respect to Wong Jack and Wong Jack has never discusses Wing Lam in a negative matter.

Jaguar Wong: After reading your comment, I am only guessing that the staff that is poked into the ground is the Ground Demon Staff set. I do not know the staff set that rolls on the ground. As a side point, I have always been interested in what were our past grand masters favorite weapons because this would offer some insight about them. Here what I found:

Yim Chi Wen - Long Spear (specifically 24 Iron Spear), hence his name ‘Great Spear Yim’
Kuo Li Chih -Staff
Sun Yu Fung - Saber, hence his nickname, ‘King of Sabers of Seven Provinces’
Li Ching Lin - Wu Tang Swords, nickname ‘God of Sword’
Kuo Yu Chang - Raise Blocking Spear, nickname ‘Iron Palm, God of Spear’
Pa Ching Hsiang- Kwan Do and Flying Fork
Wan Li Sheng (Yim Shan Wu’s first teacher)-Spear - Spear (Specifically Lui Ho Spear), later the Sword (specifically Eight Faries Sword)
Yim Shan Wu-Shaolin Sword (specifically Seven Star Sword), later Wu Tang Sword (specifically Tai Yu Sword)
Lung Tzu Hsiang- Shaolin Sword (specifically Dragon Shape Sword)
Ma Ching Fung-Double Chain, later Wu Tang Sword (specifically Dragon Phoenix Sword)
Wong Jack- Double Sabers (Shaolin Ti Tung) and Triple Staff (Continuous Links), currently Wu Tang Swords

Mantis 108: I learned these two sets and I only asked my sifu about Gung Lic. He told me that the set was part of the ten Standard Ching Wu sets that every member are required to learn. These ten sets were developed in the Ching Wu schools to establish a standard for new beginners to build a foundation for before learning higher sets. The purpose of Gung Lic was to develop internal breathing for external styles because the set was designed to alternates breathing:inhale then exhale with every move, i.e. inhale to block, exhale to punch.

I translated a section from a Ching Wu document that may explain more about the techniques involved in the two sets that you are inquiring.

‘As the chief instructor, Chao Lin Ho developed a curriculum that would be regarded as the standard Ching Wu sets. In one of his lecture papers he wrote: “Our Chinese Wu Shu (Martial Arts) is composed of many styles. Long ago, sifus were very selfish. They kept their own styles very secret, teaching no one their real kung fu except for a select few disciples. Eventually good styles died out. Huo Yuan Chia organized the Ching Wu Ti Yu Hui in Shanghai for the express purpose of creating a National Martial Arts free from stylistic jealousy and secrecy. Good techniques from the co-operating styles were grouped into ten Ching Wu hand and weapon sets. These ten sets will be the standard sets for our school.

1. Twelve Rows of Tam Tui
2. Gung Lic Kung (Work - Strength Fist)
3. Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist)
4. Big Battle Fist
5. Eight Trigram Saber
6. Shepherding Staff
7. Five Tiger Spear
8. Tam Tui Sparring
9. Set Fist
10. Saber verses Spear

Within these ten sets are elements of numerous styles from throughout China. It does not stress one style over another nor any particular region. Those techniques which are considered good and useful were included. This program takes two years to complete. Any instructor who wishes to teach at the Ching Wu Physical Cultural Association must learn these ten sets.

Any student who completes the ten fundamental sets may proceed to other styles. The ten sets, in encompassing good elements of many styles, will give the student a knowledge of principles of Martial Arts in China.” ‘

Mantis 108:As far as some of your Praying Mantis classmates knowing some Ching Wu sets, it is probably because many praying mantis sifus either taught or learned at the many Ching Wu schools in China and incorporated some of the standard Ching Wu sets into their curriculum as in the Northern Shaolin Eagle Claw schools of Lau Fat Man. As head instructor of Ching Wu, Chao Lin Ho hired four instructors, who became the Four Elders of Ching Wu. They were Chen Tzu Ching of Northern Shaolin Fan Tzu Eagle Claw. Lo Kwang Yu of Northern Praying Mantis (Seven Star), Wu Chien Chuan of Wu Style Tai Chi and Keng Kai Kuan of Hsing -I.

Also Chao Chu Chi (Chiu Chuk Kai) of Tai Chi Praying Mantis taught at a Ching Wu school and hence, he has incorporated at least one set, saber verse spear, into his curriculum.

Ironpig: 12 row tam tui was developed by Chao Lin Ho who was a Chinese Muslim. 12 row Tam Tui was not practiced or developed by the Shaolin monks.
:) :cool:

beiquan
12-11-2000, 09:25 PM
i did not know that yim shang mo had a teacher before kuo yu cheong, i guess that explains how he could pick up the style so easily at a more advanced age. what style did wan li sheng teach? wasn't he also one of the "tigers from the north" who came to teach at nanjing with kuo yu cheong?

Shaolin Master
12-12-2000, 12:00 AM
KL,
Unlike what others may say (Something Do), Fujian shaolin related temples were not necessarily called 'Shaolinsi' like that of Henan.
The Fact that the site PRC are trying to ascertain is the Putian Shaolin Temple, Though another was said to exist in Jiu Lien Shan as well. The other temples that were associated with shaolin for ch'an and martial arts were places like 'Guang Lau Si', 'Ching Xi Si', and the like. Also in other so called places where arts existed Ermei, Wudang...etc same thing no shaolin temple as such just other temples that also were associated borrowing and sharing teachings as well as developing on their. However as shaolin is so popular today many peculiar people have stated oh there is a 'shaolin' named temple here and there...not so.
As descendants of temples teaching arts in these areas in the shaolin method we may refer to those temples as shaolin without incorrection as such but it is conjecture of a name. It happens in many things......

Of course now there is a flash brand new Nan Shaolin Si in Fujian ....thanks to the PRC and there attempts at marketing shaolin as Disneyland but I have no comments on those undertakings.

Yim Sheng Mo would have studied Hung Quan previously.
GrandMaster Wong Lai Sheng Studied Shaolin LiuHe and ZiRanMen (Natural School).

Regards
Shi Chan Long

Kung Lek
12-12-2000, 12:11 AM
Hi-

I would also like to add that in Fujian there are also other temples that have been around for a very very long time.
One in particular is quite old and has survived intact to this day.

I found this curious that one buddhist temple would be destroyed and another would not in close proximity to each other.

curious isn't it? and I hear ya on the "disneyland" comment, that is so totally true of the state of Shaolin temple today. Although, I have heard good things and bad about what is going on there. The Russbo.com site has some good stuff on modern shaolin temple happenings.
As far as I know, there is still some strong Kung Fu being practiced there and it is mixed with a good helping of contemporary wu shu.

anyway, i can't speak about it with any authority because the big and small of it is that I really don't know the absolute truth about it and I can only go by what i am told, what i read and what i see in papers and newscasts.

peace

Kung Lek

word
12-12-2000, 12:13 AM
AS YOU CAN SEE WING LAM DID LEARN FROM WONG JACK MAN. AND AS YOU CAN SEE HE ONLY LEARNED FROM YEM SEUNG MO FOR 3-4 YEARS. DO YOU REALY THINK HE WILL LEARN A LOT IN 3-4 YEARS? THATS' BEGINNERS LEVEL. WHAT GRANDMASTER IS GOIGN TO SHOW YOU EVERYTHING IN 3-4 YEARS? USUALLY IN 3-4 YEARS YOU ARE STILL A PIECE OF DIRT IN THE SCHOOL AND HAVE NOT ADVANCED INTO THE ADVANCED CLASS.

ShaolinMantis
12-12-2000, 12:56 AM
Northern Shaolin: Xiexie Shisu, great posts a wealth of knowledge! I am very curious now what line you are from. At first I thought from Wong Sigung's ( like shaolinmantis )but, you said you did not know the Northern Staff set with the ground rolling, Jaugar Wong spoke of. His Sifu learned it from the Wong Jac Man line. I saw one of Wong Sigung's student's do it at the Taiji festivel in S.F. this year. A little different but mostly the same.
So respectfully I inquire your lineage...

Jaguar Wong: The ground demon staff may have come from Johnny Sole's teaching. Your Sifu studied with him before coming to Kam Yuen Sifu

Mantis 10: Shixiang, I asked Eng Sifu about Jeet Kune this summer he said also it was from the same Ching Wu teachings as Gung Lik Kune. I was told at the time I learned Gung Lik from a Sihing that is was a breathing set. It flowed from slow to fast moves with the strikes and blocks. I have not seen everyone do it this way as yet.
Ling Sisuk said that many schools use Gung Lik Kune as their foundation form these days. eg: the Eagle Claw school also uses Gung Lik.

My feelings on the use of Jeet Kune is that adds more of the Northern Shaolin feeling to the Mantis study. One understands more of the use of high kicks as well as the weakness of them. It also helps with the "lightness" that is needed for the Taiji Mantis sets. I noticed many of the younger players without the Northern Shaolin training stuggle with some of the kicks and sweeps. If they had not been exsposed to that , when encountering kicking fighters, they could have been unbalance by the attacks.

my respects...

ShaolinMantis-I

beiquan
12-12-2000, 01:40 AM
... not Johnny Sole. chinese name is So Bin Yuen.

i am from this branch (my sigung is Ken Hui, one of So Sifu's senior students from the old Los Angeles school); never seen a ground demon pole but... there's lots of stuff i haven't seen :)

[This message was edited by beiquan on 12-12-00 at 05:49 PM.]

NorthernShaolin
12-12-2000, 03:33 AM
I am at the same level as Shaolin Mantis with Paul Eng as our only senior classmate that is left. Your original assumption is right. I was at the Tai Chi at the park demo in SF. You were behind the video camera and we talked about our Tai Chi set and the book you saw overseas.

I guess I got confused. The set performed in the demo is Ground Demon but there is no rolling on the ground. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall that there was talk that Kam Yuen may have added ground rolling techniques like in the double sabers to the staff set when he left Wong Jack for LA in the early 1970's. If that's the case then I got it backwards and mislead Jaguar Wong...sorry. :cool:

NorthernShaolin
12-12-2000, 03:34 AM
I am at the same level as Shaolin Mantis as he is my equal, with Paul Eng as our only senior classmate that is left. Your original assumption is right. I was at the Tai Chi at the park demo in SF. You were behind the video camera and we talked about our Tai Chi set and the book you saw overseas.

I guess I got confused. The set performed in the demo is Ground Demon but there is no rolling on the ground. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall that there was talk that Kam Yuen may have added ground rolling techniques like in the double sabers to the staff set when he left Wong Jack for LA in the early 1970's. If that's the case then I got it backwards and mislead Jaguar Wong...sorry. :cool:

beiquan
12-12-2000, 10:00 AM
I am curious about the form Lok Hap Kune/Liu He Quan as practiced in the Northern Shaolin system. I know there are other styles which call themselves "six harmony", anyone know if this form is from another style or particular to the Kuo Yu Cheong branch?

sorry for asking so many questions :)

Jaguar Wong
12-12-2000, 06:18 PM
Shaolin Mantis,
Yes, he did study with Johnny So, but I think he said that Ken Hui (senior student) taught most of the classes he went to. I'm not sure, I'll have to ask him.

NorthernShaolin,
Yes, the long staff set I'm talking about has the double sabre-like ground rolling in it. Wow, now I know the name of it. thanks man. No sweat about misleading me. I was confused to begin with :) That rolling stuff is pretty hard in that set, though.

Man all this stuff I'm learning is just plain cool :)

beiquan,
Was the school next to a bar (Barking Frog's)? If so, then yes, that's our school. And no we don't get into a lot of bar fights :p. There is a Shao-Lin Center (Shaolin Do) somewhere here in Vegas, but as far as Lohan/Praying Mantis schools go, I don't think Vegas is really a hotbed of Shaolin.

Thanks a lot guys. It's nice to know that the internet can connect so many people like this :)

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

mantis108
12-12-2000, 11:02 PM
NorternShaolin and Shaolin Mantis-I,

Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it.

About the curriculum:

1. Twelve Rows of Tam Tui
2. Gung Lic Kung (Work - Strength Fist)
3. Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist)
4. Big Battle Fist
5. Eight Trigram Saber
6. Shepherding Staff
7. Five Tiger Spear
8. Tam Tui Sparring
9. Set Fist
10. Saber verses Spear

In your opinion, are they taught in that particular order? is #9-Set Fist a 2 men form? I have learnt 2,3 and possiblely #10 (a very nice set) if TCPM's version is that of Chin Wu? Also have you any info on See Fung Do (Blade Testing Saber)? I believe this could also be one of Ching Wu form which features the essential techniques of Saber. It is a Sun Yuk Fung's form also? This form seems to have modify into a Lung Ying (Dragon Style) Saber form as well. There was a exchanging of sons to teach deal went on between Lung Ying's GM Lum Yui Kwai and Lohan's GM Sun Yuk Fung. Lum's son got weapon training and Sun's son got empty hand training. Could anyone shed some lights into this.

Sigung Chui Chuk Kai taught at a Macao's Ching Wu and then in a Vietnam's Ching Wu branches. So that would explain alot of where some forms and some methodolgy is from. It would seem that the Mantis masters who taught at Ching Wu all agreed that Northern Shaolin is a good foundation for Praying Mantis (I think Dr Yang in his book expressed the same view). Intersting...
They were more open minded than we have thought.

Thanks

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

Shaolin Master
12-12-2000, 11:37 PM
BeiQuan,

Liu He Quan is from the LiuHeSchool. Best known representative during Gu Ru Zhang's time is Wong Lai Sheng (Another of the 5 Northern tigers heading South). The routine there is the First routine of the system which is actually called LiuHeQuan....other routines include HeiHuQuan(Black Tiger), QingLongQuan(GReenDragon), etc....

Regards
Shi Chan Long

ShaolinMantis
12-13-2000, 12:50 AM
Northern Shaolin : Ah...As I thought it is you Sisuk. Greetings

Ground Demon pole: That would make sense about Kam Sifu adding it. He added or changed several things in misc sets. There is that same roll in the 3 section set along with a similar underbody move as in the whip chain set. Well it can not be said they were added to make it easier, they certainly don't do that.

ShaolinMantis-I

NorthernShaolin
12-13-2000, 08:09 PM
Mantis108: During the time, Ching Wu schools were very sucessful and it was one of the highest honor to teach inthe Ching Wu schools. Living in China with many of its people were poor and starving and with other countries invading its land, it was difficult to establish their own school. Many sifus felt their style’s survival was in danger of disappearing in one generation. They realized that they needed to re-think and be more open minded.
To the best of my knowledge this is the order that Ching Wu teaches the sets. I have either learned or observed all of these sets except for number 9. I have yet to observe or locate any written document on this set.

These is only one weapon that has its roots associated with Tai Chi Praying Mantis, that is, the Nine Ring Saber. The saber set, Testing the Blade, is a very unusual saber set and is unlike other CMA saber sets (meaning techniques of one person verses many). This set consist of many strings of battle proven individual saber techniques (one against one) strung together. The original concept surrounding this set is that it was designed to trained the foot soldiers in quick fighting techniques. It is well known that Chui Chuk Kai borrowed many weapons from Tai Jo Men and this might be the original source of the set.

Sun Yu Fung did not teach Testing the Blade but did teach five other sabers.
Pa Kua Saber or Eight Trigam Saber (required by Ching Wu):Foot Solider Saber, Plum Blossom Saber, Split Door Saber (Sparring Sabers), Loose Wrist Saber (Sparring Sabers). Sometimes he would teach two additional sets: Swallow Pierces the Clouds and Snow Flakes.

As to your question about exchanging of sons to teach with Lum Yui Kwai, I do not have any info. However it was a common practice between GM’s to do this out of respect for each other. Later Sun’s son, Wen Yung, joined the army and became the General Martial Arts training Officer. He was killed in battle between 1934 and 35, when the Nationalist made the big push northward. This effected SYF to a point of deep depression and he quit teaching at the Ching Wu Association. He went to his teach with his top disciple’s school, Hwang Hsiao Hsia (His nickname is Iron Forearms, Yin and Yang Hands).

Beiquan: More on Wan Li Sheng
Wan Li Sheng and Kuo Yu Chang were very close friends. At the 1928 First National Tournament, the contests were ferocious and bloody. Wan Li Sheng had beaten all of his opponents and was in the semi-finals. In his last contest, Wan Li Sheng fought a White Crane opponent. Wan Li Sheng struck and broke his opponent's jaw. However, to Wan Li Sheng's disappointment, he also injured his hand and reluctantly dropped out of the tournament His hand received major cuts from his opponent's teeth when he struck his jaw. Wan Li Sheng ended up placing number forty eight (48). As the number of contestants got smaller, the fights became even more violent and brutal. Many of the contestants were taken away on stretchers with broken bones and other injuries. The government stopped the tournament when there were only thirteen contestants left. The audience was angry because they wanted to have one single champion of all China. The government officials announced to the audience that if the fights continued, many of the results would end in death because of the high degree of skill among the contestants that were left. The thirteen champions of all China were declared and the tournament was over. Among the thirteen champions were Kuo Yu Chaing of Northern Shao lin style, Fu Chen Sung of Pa Ku style, Li Hsin Wu of Northern Shao lin and Tan T'ui styles, Keng Te Hai of Monkey Style, Ma Cheng Hsin of Seven Star Praying Mantis style, Wang Shao Chou of Northern Shao Lin and Cha styles, Chu Kuo Chen, Chu Kuo Fu, Chu Kuo Lu, etc. Out of the thirteen champions, Wan Li Sheng felt that he was better than twelve of the champions. Wan Li Sheng decided to test the other twelve champions. He traveled to their home province and fought each one in their home schools. He believed that they were not that good and therefore did not deserve the title of Champion of All China. He believed that only Kuo Yu Chiang deserved the title. Wan Li Sheng challenged many of the champions and won. Wan Li Sheng felt that the populace were ignorant of true martial arts and were easily fooled by fake masters. Wan Li Sheng wanted to expose them and continued to challenge masters across the country. Soon everyone was familiar with Wan Li Sheng's reputation. Either the people hated him because of his attitude and arrogance’s towards the many masters that he fought or they loved him because he exposed the fake masters.
Once, Wan Li Sheng went to the Yang Family to try the famous Yang's Style of Tai Chi. Chang Ch'ing Ling, who was trained by Yang Pan Hou, came forward to meet the challenger. Yang Pan Hou was one of the sons of Yang Lu Ch'an, the founder of Yang Style Tai Chi. Chang Ch'ing Ling was a classmate of the famous Yang Ch'eng Fu , who was the grandson of Yang Lu Ch'an. It was said that Chang Ch'ing Ling could "root" his feet so well that they sank into the ground. As Chang Ch'ing Ling and Wan Li Sheng fought, observers noticed that both men were of equal abilities. The fight ended in a draw because both men injured their hands. Wan Li Sheng went as far as to challenge the famous Yang Ch'eng Fu. In this challenge, they both agreed to use Tai Chi pushing hand techniques. To Yang Ch'eng Fu surprise, Wan Li Sheng pushed him up into the air. Yang Ch'eng Fu at this time weigh three hundred (300) pounds. To many martial artists, this was real proof of how strong and how good Wan Li Sheng really was. Up to that time, no one had ever uprooted Yang Ch'eng Fu and more impressive because Wan Li Sheng had beaten a renown master using his opponent's own technique.
After the 1928 First National Tournament, the Kuo Ming Tung, under General Chang Chih Chang, appointed five (5) masters who became known as the Five Tigers From The North. These masters were Kuo Yu Chiang, Wan Li Sheng, Fu Chen Sung, Wang Shao Chou and Li Hsin Wu. Also included were three (3) well known masters who were Keng Te Hai, an expert in Tai Shan Style or monkey Style, Tung Yin Chieh, who was a Tai Chi master, and Sun Yu Fung. The Kuo Ming Tung requested the Ching Wu Cultural Association to send four (4) representatives: Chen Tzu Sheng of Northern Shao Lin Eagle Claw style, Lo Kwang Yu of Northern Praying Mantis (Seven Star), Keng Cha Kuan of Hsing I internal style, and Wu Chien Chuan of Wu style Tai Chi. Together they were ordered to discuss and develop the best techniques of each style and to put aside their prejudices of different styles. As a result they developed a diverse style called Long Fist which became very popular. The Five Tigers From The North were ordered by the Kuo Ming Tung to go south to Canton. They were ordered to meet with southern masters to form martial art schools and combine their styles together to form new and effective techniques. General Li Chao and six (6) southern masters were to form a new Kuo Ming Tung Association in Canton. The six (6) southern masters were Lin Yin Tang of Mo Gar style, Tam San of Ts'ai Li Fut style, Lin Yao Kuei of Dragon style, Chang Li Chuan of White Eye Brow style, Lin Shih Jung of Hung Gar style and Wu Chien Chuan of White Crane style. As a result, many new styles developed. Of these "new" styles, the most popular was North Wind Ts'ai Li Fut.
The defeat of the twelve (12) champions of the 1928 tournament by Wan Li Sheng was recognized by the Kuo Ming Tung. They appointed Wan Li Sheng as director of the Kwangsi Province school and gave him the rank of Major General. Many masters
became jealous of Wan Li Sheng's accomplishment and of his young age of thirty five (35). As a result many southern masters challenged Wan Li Sheng but each one fell before the superior skills of Wan Li Sheng. Many of the defeated masters acknowledged Wan Li Sheng's skills and described his abilities: " Wan Li Sheng's hands moved like ropes and his fingers were like iron hooks. He rushes forward like a hurricane and backed away like a torrential waters." Wherever he went, he was always surrounded by admiring followers who came from various parts of the country to learn from him. By 1930, Wan Li Sheng was very famous and many people regarded him as the symbol of Chinese Martial Arts. Since martial arts and Wan Li Sheng's fame did not "bloom" until after the 1928 National Tournament, many people call Wan Li Sheng the "Flower of the National Arts".
The Chief Army Officer was Li Chi Shen and he appointed Wan Li Sheng, who was a graduate from Peking University, to be head of both National Arts Provinces school in Kwangsi and Kwangtung and Kuo Yu Chang to be in charge of Kwangtung Province. WLS instructed everyone to assist Wang Shao Chou in developing a standard curriculum and they all decided to use the set, Lien Bo, from Wu Chih Ch’ing as the basic set. While KYU was there, he met Ch’ien Chan Sheng who taught him Ch’a style.
:) :cool:

mantis108
12-13-2000, 09:38 PM
NortherShaolin,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, your sharing of knowledge is truely a treasure find for me. Those legendary figures, whom you have mentioned, were known to me. Yet, I have a hard time of put them together. Events and people sometimes don't seem to be related. Now, I can see the threads between them and see how things developed. If you have a book or if you are considering writting a book please let me know. I would be honored and interested to own a piece of important history of Chinese martial arts.

A few more questions, if you don't mind. You mentioned the 9 ring broad sword form. What is the full name of the form in Chinese? The foot Soldier Saber, is it Bo Chin Do? I think this form seems to be quite famous of his. Would you have info on Taijo Men? I think Taijo Men was quite popular and active in Shantung province even during the late Qing dynasty. Sigung Chui believed to have trained in Taijo Men when he was studying MA in his youth in a temple. Taijo Men seems to have Cheung Kuen ( Long Fist, forms) and Dune Da (Sau Fa, applications). Weapon wise I think the WhipChain and Rope Dart are remarkable. It is my believed that Tai Chi Praying Mantis has more influence from Taijo Men and 7 Stars Praying Mantis has more Eagle Claw influence.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us all. You are leading an inspirational role.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

NorthernShaolin
12-17-2000, 01:33 AM
Mantis 108: I’ve have converse with my classmate, Shaolin Mantis in SF and he states the name of the nine ring saber is Lan Mon Do with the name Lan being a name of a family. I could not secure a Chinese character so I do not know what family it is.

The Foot soldier saber is exactly what you said it is and is was one of SYF’s famous sets. I’ve seen my Sigung, Li Hon Chia, demonstrate it once some years ago but I do not know anyone teaching it anymore.

What I do know about Tsung Jo Men is not much. General Chao K’ang Yin is credited for developing the style for his army and the style was named after him. The style is also known as Long Fist in the ancient times (Sung Dynasty?) and it is record as to having four original hand sets: Thirty two move in Long Fist, Six Step Fist, Monkey Fist, and Flower Fist. Other than that, I do not know if these sets still exist or if they have evolved or merged into other sets. Today Tsung Jo Men has more than four hand sets.

As to the influence between two style of Eagle Claw and 7-star praying mantis , I believe you are right. Two major GM’s actually interfaced between 1930 and 1931.

In 1929, one of the founding fathers, Chen Tzu Ching, had to return to his home villiage and requested Ching Wu HQ to sent Lau Fat Meng as his replacement. LFM was appointed Dean of Instructions for Hong Kong Ching Wu school. In 1931, a Ching Wu school open in Wang Jung and LFM left to teach there.

Meanwhile, in 1929, another founding father, Lo Kwong Yu went to visit his good friend, Sun Yu Fung in the Ching Wu school in Canton. He taught his 7-Star Praying Mantis until 1930 when Ching Wu Board of Directors decided to send LKY to HK where LFM was teaching. He spend the next six years teaching his 7*PM and it became the second most popular style next to Shaolin and Tai Chi
:) :) :cool:

mantis108
12-17-2000, 04:20 AM
NorthernShaolin,

Once again great info.

It is interesting about Lan Moon Do. I thought that the full name was Pagua Lan Moon Do (8 Trigrams Blocking Door saber). It is believed to be a Tai Chi Praying Mantis original form created by Master Leung Shui Sheung (4th Generation). I have seen it perform with a 9 rings broad sword. Nowadays, it is performed with a heavy broad sword instead. Well, this is interesting...

About the Foot Soldier saber it is a shame this set is not being taught anymore...

Thanks for the info. on the GM's exchange knowledge.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

PalmStriker
12-27-2014, 07:56 PM
:) Fifteen Years Later: :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM8_MXFvc6I

PalmStriker
01-09-2015, 09:31 PM
:) Lohan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGIyf9HDCwo

N5Animals
01-20-2015, 05:22 PM
Hi-

There are five main "families" of Northern Shaolin Kung Fu.

Cha and Hong are the most prevalent today.
(Hong being Sil Lum).

Bak Sil Lum or North Shaolin of Kuo Yuo Cheong is said to be most intact with its system maintained in entirety. it contains two preliminary sets and 10 core sets.
The system takes about 5 to 10 years to learn dependent upon the students adeptness and about another 5 or 10 years to gain mastery of.

Bak Sil Lum is the system I am most familiar with as it is the Northern system my Si fu is giving me.
It is quite difficult to perform even the 2 beginner core sets (Tun Ta and Moi Fa) but there is a lot of info that is good in the prelim sets which are Lien Bo Chuan and Tan Tui (10 row).
Lien Bo and Tan Tui introduce the practitioner/student to some of the concepts held further into the system.
Kung Lek

It is acutally the Cha style. Of course Cha Quen is considered a Northern Shaolin but it had been developed for hundred years and it is generally considered a seperated style or even a shool. It is also called Muslim Style as it was mostly practiced within Chinese Muslim Cummunities.