T.Niehoff/anyone: Practical weapons training.

[Mr Punch]

Hi Terence, noticed you on the board and thought you may not have noticed this question...



Originally posted by t_niehoff
Although I have rather low-level skills, I've used the knives against longtime kenjutsu practitioners and escrimadors in application successfully. ...Terence

Hi Terence. I'd be interested in some description of how you did this, which movements/strategies you used, and some info about the number, styles and pedigree of the kenjutsu practitioners... plus what you mean by 'successfully' (I assume you didn't chop anything off them! :D ) . If you don't want to post here, feel free to drop me a private... I appreciate I've asked a lot of questions, and I appreciate any time you spend on the answers.

Thanks.

And since you seem to have a few things to say on the subject, how about taking a stab at this one...:D :rolleyes:

Sifu John D, welcome to the board, I was training under Embrey for a year or so. One day I hope to come out and visit your kwoon.

Could you just help me out with this one... given that


John D
both the Kwan and the DO are no longer used for personal survival in the modern world

how do you go about


practical/coherent/realistic weapons training


and what kind of experience as a WC teacher would you say makes a good WC weapons teacher?

Didn't want to hijack the other thread either... any ideas/info?

[t_niehoff]

Hi Mat,

Mat wrote:

I'd be interested in some description of how you did this, which movements/strategies you used, M

If you want to properly learn the weapons (or anything IMO), you need to find someone that has trained them and can use them. There is much more to it (though those are important) than movements/strategies -- like using the body and not the arms for power - regardless of your movement or strategy, if your power in WCK doesn't come from the body, it won't work against real resistance; what would they tell you about it anyway? TN

and some info about the number, styles and pedigree of the kenjutsu practitioners...M

This was a kenjutsu school in my area that I think descends from Larry Renosa (?); the guy I dealt with was a some sort of black belt. I've also met with escrima practitioners from Pekititi Tersia, etc. FWIW, I'm sure there all kinds of good folks that could destroy me with weapons (or empty hand); I don't claim to be anything but a practitioner trying to get better. But my point was that our ability to use WCK's weapons - or empty hands - depends on our individual skill and, or course, the relative skill of our opponent. Effectiveness in fighting, empty hand or with weapon, is determined by the training methods you employ, not by the style or technique you perform. TN

plus what you mean by 'successfully' (I assume you didn't chop anything off them! ). M

For me, success means that I could control the opponent and thus the encounter. TN

If you don't want to post here, feel free to drop me a private... I appreciate I've asked a lot of questions, and I appreciate any time you spend on the answers. M

No problem. TN

Terence

[John D]

Hi Matt,


Both WC weapons are an important (but not the most important) part of my practice schedule. At my age (headed to 49) I am interested in passing what I have to the next generation of WC people. In my three decades of WC experience, only one-in-hundred stay around long enough to learn the weapons. Most people don't have the time or interest (real need) to learn a practical system like WC.


In answering your question - the weapon are complete systems in themselves and can be practiced sperately by themselves. To generalize a bit....the weapon sets check only body mechanics and the simple positions (angles) but have no reflex value. It is not until you begin to apply (start at walking speed) the various parts (sections) in proper progression that you begin to feel the extended timing and forces.

Timing...timing...timing....when you practice with the weapons your skill will grow and you will notice how SLOW your partners move when they move fast. Yes, things move slower...! If you can understand why things move slower you have already have a good track of experience. - John D.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Hi Mat,

Mat wrote:

I'd be interested in some description of how you did this, which movements/strategies you used, M

If you want to properly learn the weapons (or anything IMO), you need to find someone that has trained them and can use them. There is much more to it (though those are important) than movements/strategies -- like using the body and not the arms for power - regardless of your movement or strategy, if your power in WCK doesn't come from the body, it won't work against real resistance; what would they tell you about it anyway? TN

Completely agreed on your mention of power generation.

And on finding a useful teacher.

However, as we can't demonstrate what we mean/cross hands over the net... I was interested in how you used which movements from the form for success against these people. Or if not moves from the form, any other drills you practise to keep the weapons aspect of WC alive.

I've been practising long enough to know the basics of power generation in WC... so the specific movements and strategies would tell me quite a lot.

It would also tell me how much you know/can accurately assess the skill levels and skill sets of your opponents, and thus be objective in your analysis of your success as opposed to their failure.


Originally posted by t_niehoff
and some info about the number, styles and pedigree of the kenjutsu practitioners...M

This was a kenjutsu school in my area that I think descends from Larry Renosa (?); the guy I dealt with was a some sort of black belt. I've also met with escrima practitioners from Pekititi Tersia, etc. FWIW, I'm sure there all kinds of good folks that could destroy me with weapons (or empty hand); I don't claim to be anything but a practitioner trying to get better. But my point was that our ability to use WCK's weapons - or empty hands - depends on our individual skill and, or course, the relative skill of our opponent. Effectiveness in fighting, empty hand or with weapon, is determined by the training methods you employ, not by the style or technique you perform. TN

Again, agreed. So what training methods do you employ which you consider to have been useful in these encounters?!


Originally posted by t_niehoff
plus what you mean by 'successfully' (I assume you didn't chop anything off them! ). M

For me, success means that I could control the opponent and thus the encounter. TN

Were you using wooden weapons? How heavy were they? Was the balance the same as the metal would have been? Do you consider this to matter?

Were you wearing armour? Was your opponent? Were you going for strikes or accepting that you could have hit/been hit when an opening arose? Were the strikes powered or loose? Were there any disagreements/problems concerning whether a strike could have been landed/an opening was there?

What were your opponents using?

Sorry, perhaps my questions weren't specific enough. Not trying to be a pain in the A, with respect, just curious.:)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by John D

In answering your question - the weapon are complete systems in themselves and can be practiced sperately by themselves. To generalize a bit....the weapon sets check only body mechanics and the simple positions (angles) but have no reflex value. It is not until you begin to apply (start at walking speed) the various parts (sections) in proper progression that you begin to feel the extended timing and forces.

Sorry John, seems I wasn't specific enough in this question either. Given that you can't and don't use the weapons as a part of personal survival nowadays, how do you give practical training? And practical for what? I can appreciate maybe that it helps with body mechanics and positions, but armed, these will both differ from unarmed... so what practical use is it?

As for forces, do you mean the vertical forces of the weight of the weapons on your arms, or the forces of the weaons as you extend them, or are you talking about cutting into something with the do, or hitting something with the pole? These all seem to be different things to me, and will all involve different forces to unarmed practical fighting skills.


Timing...timing...timing....when you practice with the weapons your skill will grow and you will notice how SLOW your partners move when they move fast. Yes, things move slower...! If you can understand why things move slower you have already have a good track of experience. - John D.

I think I can understand this better through my many years of experience with aikido... but with aikido you are trying to dissipate, redirect or continue a force coming towards you, so practical weapons experience (dissipating, redirecting etc) will help you to blend with the force, or to break its pattern... thus improving critical timing.

But in aiki you use stick/bokuto/unarmed against stick/bokuto/unarmed... so there's a definite crossover. What kind of paired practice do you use in WC weapons? And how does it help in your timing? Only for unarmed vs unarmed? In which case again, what's the point of learning the weapons? Do you mean weapons skill will grow, or unarmed?

Cheers!:)

Sorry again. Awkward answers in writing I know. And it's starting to look like two separate threads!

[Mr Punch]

111 views, 4 answers and two of those are more questions!

Unlike the board to be so quiet!

Anyone else is welcome to join in, providing it's relevant of course...!

[t_niehoff]

Hi Mat,

Mat wrote:

However, as we can't demonstrate what we mean/cross hands over the net... I was interested in how you used which movements from the form for success against these people. Or if not moves from the form, any other drills you practise to keep the weapons aspect of WC alive. M

See my response to the bridging thread for my perspective regarding these types of questions. I can't tell you "which movements" work or don't work since WCK's method is to let the opponent tell us how to defeat him and thus my action will depends on my opponent, including what he is doing or not doing in the moment. The weapons strategy is basically the same as our empty-hand (dap, jeet, chum, bui, etc.) but modified for the weapons (dap to join with the weapon/hand, jeet to hit/cut the hand, etc.). TN

I've been practising long enough to know the basics of power generation in WC... so the specific movements and strategies would tell me quite a lot. M

Would you mind telling me then what WCK's most fundamental method of generating power is? If you understand it, being able to transfer it through the weapons is IME extremely difficult and takes a lot of work. For example, everyone in WCK "knows" that with the pole we strive to hit the opponent's forward hand (on his pole) as a prelude (to set up the next attack); they demonstrate this in magazines, seminars, etc. But hardly anyone I've seen has genuinely developed the mechanics (power) to truly injure that hand (enough to make the opponent release the pole) with their pole strike -- you'd be surprised how powerful a shot someone can take and still hang onto their weapon/pole (since their "life" may hang in the balance). So if you don't have the power (mechanics) and you hit the hand to no effect, your whole strategy falters; regardless of your strategy and movement you will fail. And if you don't have the ability to receive and generate power (two sides of the same coin), you'll never be able to make any movement work (try practicing your movments against someone swinging at you with a corkball bat with a great deal of power to see for yourself). The gung lik is vital, and IMO it is the most overlooked feature. TN

Were you using wooden weapons? How heavy were they? Was the balance the same as the metal would have been? Do you consider this to matter? M

Were you wearing armour? Was your opponent? Were you going for strikes or accepting that you could have hit/been hit when an opening arose? Were the strikes powered or loose? Were there any disagreements/problems concerning whether a strike could have been landed/an opening was there? M

What were your opponents using? M

When I've crossed weapons, I have used wooden knives (and pole) against rattan sticks (single and double, and single with wooden knife), a shinai that had a leather covering (it permits full strength strikes and you only feel a dull thud), pole, and spear (dulled point). No armor or padding (but in some cases we did wear head-gear and facemasks). We went full-power with control. I never had a problem feeling a hit or having my opponent feel one of mine (remember, you're doing this to train and learn, not to argue or compete). Other than some nasty-looking bruises, swollen fingers, and abrasions, we had no real injuries. These experiences gave me a lot of respect for the other systems and MAists I faced. TN

Terence