Training one side or the other

[red5angel]

When you ladies are training, do you tend to focus on your strong side, weak side, or try to split up training between both sides?

[yenhoi]

I train both sides.

[ShaolinTiger00]

a one armed bird only flies in circles.

[red5angel]

Yenhoui, ST00 - would you both say you train both sides equally?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Nope. don't even try.

[yenhoi]

No, because I sparr the majority of the time with a right lead Not to mention it is naturally my strong side.

Most of the time I drill both sides the same amount as much as possible, sometimes I drill the left a little more (just cause it takes longer sometimes to catch on...)

[Kaitain(UK)]

I train all techniques on both sides but I emphasise different things when it comes to putting them together.

I prefer to fight southpaw as a hangover from MT when I could let rip with rear left kicks much better than rear right. I can fight orthodox pretty well, but I use different techniques from there. I think it's a standard issue - if Im in orthodox stance I am a little more open-bodied (squarer) as I'm weaker at throwing rear-right kicks so I need to rely on my right-arm a lot more (being squarer gives me more room).

For example, if Im in southpaw I will train to setup my left leg round kick - standard r jab, l cross, l kick stuff

If I'm orthodox then I train to close instantly rather than kick - so I do more l jab, r hook/elbow, l elbow

Once at grappling distance I train everything exactly the same as there's less room for choice and I find little difference in aptitude for techniques on each side.

It's important to clarify that I train my weak side as hard as my strong side - the difference comes when I put it together. If anything I train my weaker techniques much harder - I'm actually getting a respectable left jab and left lead hook now :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

No, because I sparr the majority of the time with a right lead Not to mention it is naturally my strong side.

I've never understood this. Why do people fight like this? JKD?
I understand that if you have a weapon such as a knife, sword etc, then you want to fight "power" side. Comming from my persepctive where years of orthodox stance were pounded into me, I'm facinated by the fact that a right handed person would put his power hand forward and leave his speed behind.

What is your strategy in this? It probably gives you a crisp, powerful jab, but what follows?

I'm not judging, I'm genuinely curious! to me, it makes no practical sense.

[yenhoi]

Not all JKD put strong side forward. My teacher doesnt. I fight strong side forward (during sparring where you square off at long distance........self defense etc aside..) because it works better for me. At longer range I like having my more powerful weapons closer to the opponent. Once the gap is bridged (after combat has started at all..) I have no side pref. Whatever works.

I'm facinated by the fact that a right handed person would put his power hand forward and leave his speed behind.

My 'left side' is not faster then my stronger 'right side.' Im faster in general then any of my regular training/sparring partners so speed has never hit me obside the head so-to-speak.

Are you saying putting the weaker side behind, that we are making it even weaker (slower?) Ive found its a good way to augment the weak sides power.

In the end its what feels better, and speed and power are more a function of timing and time in then how you stand when you are stationary.

[apoweyn]

shaolintiger,


I've never understood this. Why do people fight like this? JKD? I understand that if you have a weapon such as a knife, sword etc, then you want to fight "power" side. Comming from my persepctive where years of orthodox stance were pounded into me, I'm facinated by the fact that a right handed person would put his power hand forward and leave his speed behind.

What is your strategy in this? It probably gives you a crisp, powerful jab, but what follows?

I'm not judging, I'm genuinely curious! to me, it makes no practical sense.

i'd nearly forgotten that. you brought it up when we got together recently. i think i mentioned the weapons thing. perhaps not.

in any event, it started for me as a result of my rabid JKD fandom. (it wore off.) but it was solidified by the eskrima training. we lead with the primary weapon and keep secondary weapons back, generally speaking. that doesn't mean the secondary weapon is inferior. far from it. in something like stick and dagger, the dagger may well be the 'big gun' in that combination. but it's often the stick that paves the way.

anyway, i wanted a consistent framework as i went from weapon to empty hand. and the lead was part of that. now, years later, i'm only really comfortable that way. but i still believe in the idea. i want my fast, strong hand up front where it can pave the way. the less adept hand is in the back, where (as yenhoi mentioned) the power differential can be made up for a bit by the extra hip rotation.

orthodox boxing reasoning makes sense to me too, mind you. it's just not how i ended up training myself.


stuart b.

[Losttrak]

As far as striking, I train both arms equally. When it comes to blocking I do tend to keep my dominant side forward as my lead side kicks/foot hooks are killer. Plus I can hit pretty **** hard and fast with my lead hand. In my mind, its better to be a master of one side, than an expert at both. He who hits first usually wins... so I "put my best side forth."

[ShaolinTiger00]

Well I certainly can't argue with either of your rationales for the reason. "because it feels right" is the deal-sealer.

[yenhoi]

"Well I certainly can't argue with..."

Should be in someones signature.

_Should_ the begginer drill both sides?

_Should_ the intermediate drill both sides?

_Should_ the so-called 'advanced' be able to switch leads with ease?

What are the benefits of a weak side lead?

Just curiosity for the thread... :eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Well I certainly can't argue with either of your rationales for the reason. "because it feels right" is the deal-sealer.

yeah. the only downside to that was when i was more of a kicker. (i used to be, essentially, just a kicker actually.) i was always more comfortable kicking with the left leg, so i usually kept it in front. so there was a long time there when you could tell what i was going to do based on which foot was forward. not so good, that.

so i ended up training my lead right kicks to match my hands a bit better. results to be determined at a later date.

:)

[fa_jing]

Hey ST00 - I'm with you. I fight orthodox, because I want to be able to punish them if they come in on me. Plus if I fought the other way I wouldn't have a real knockout punch. I strive to develop both arms, of course - and I realize that the lead is probably more important overall than the rear hand, thus I train it more- but this is the combo that works best for me.

I was told that the disadvantage to the orthodox stance, is that the opponent can keep moving away from your power side. I try to use good footwork and turning to face to make up for that.

P.S. I noticed that a lot of western boxers move their feet to parallel stance (neither foward of the other, although the torso is still angled) when they have their opponent on the ropes. Just like good Southern KF. ;)

[MightyB]

Weak side lead is more offensive,

Strong side lead is more defensive.

It depends on how you feel and who you're fighting. If the guy is an offensive maniac who leads with strong kicks, it's probably better to lead with the strong hand and wait for him to make a mistake and open himself to a counter puch or throw. If he's more of a counter puncher and defensive, go with the jab hand/weakside lead and pick him apart.

[ShaolinTiger00]

opponents keep moving away - cut them off with footwork.

why more square on the attack on the ropes? - bringing up the back leg gives the uppercut more power. ropes= lots of infighting and digging.

[red5angel]

interesting replies. I think for now I am going to have to stay orthodox. My strong side, right side, isn't any faster or slower then my left side and I feel more comfortable with a left lead.

[ShaolinTiger00]

What are the benefits of a weak side lead?

Because although it be be weaker, it can provide you with the quickest punch (the jab) - It sets up more powerful shots, keeps your opponent off balance, can be used to dictate the pace of the fight, and buys time for you.

And you still have your stronger punch behind that. jab /power. jab /power. jab /power /hook /power. jab /power.

[red5angel]

"And you still have your stronger punch behind that. jab /power. jab /power. jab /power /hook /power. jab /power."

I think this is intuitively why I like the weak side lead. So far anyway.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I think it depends on what punches you feel strongest at and use a lot

the jab is an entry (attacking) or stopping (defensive) technique - if on entry I want to hit hard enough with it and then close quickly. If it's stopping I want it to have enough to do the job.

I also throw most punches in three's before getting out again (or closing to clinch). So to me power lead, strong left cross/hook, power hook works better than ok-ish lead, power cross, ok-ish lead hook

Obviously I've trained combinations that suit though - and my left is a lot weaker than my right (missing my pinkie on that hand which has taken a lot of the 'oomph' out of it). Hey - I should get a disability parking permit...

It's interesting that some of you advocate putting your strong leg forwards - I guess if it's same side as stronger hand it makes sense. I have opposites so I choose between strong lead leg and rear arm or weak lead arm and rear leg. I only use my lead leg for stop kicks, knees or stamp entries to clinch - anything offensive comes from the rear leg (there are rare exceptions if i think the inside leg of my opponent is available to kick). The taiji I train enourages this - the form trains the right leg a lot more in stop kicks to the shin (off of every Brush Knee sequence) - the left is all about heel kicks and so on. I know there's probably eighty hidden left stop kicks - please dont tell me; where I am at the moment there's none :)

I was going to say you can't really choose what limb you're going to have to use, but obviously you can and do. If someone comes to my left I'm more likely to try and block and wrap with my left arm and use my right for strikes and I'll usually go for the inside. If it's to my right then I will try to get outside and use my left to stick and my right to deliver - or I'll go inside but slip and strike with the right. I'm less confident on the inside if my left is going to be doing the majority of the work. When in doubt, elbow - it's always hard enough :) I'm much happier at grappling range, it's easier to feel what's going on and launch some serious damage.

[Braden]

Bagua tends to change "leads" so often, it's almost meaningless... so I guess both.

[myosimka]

One of the Inosanto lineage wrote an interesting piece on this a while back.(Cass Magda I think) If you wanted to do a google search.

One way you put your power side back and use the jab as a set-up weapon for the crushing strong side cross. The other is that you get your stronger side in between you and your opponent and also the faster side closer to the target. Makes for quicker lead side hits. Plus you still end up with a strong reverse attack because the hip movememnt compensates for the weaker side. So you have 2 strong weapons instead of one weak one and one superstrong one. Both ideas seem pretty valid to me, just different choices.

I tend to favor orthodox after MT and karate but as I am moving to kali, I am trying to switch. Seems simpler to practice one side dominantly rather than switching based on whether I have a weapon or not. Plus southpaw is seen rarely enough that it makes life tougher for other people if I use it. And that means one more thing in my favor.

[red5angel]

Myosimka, why is it you are switching leads now that you are getting into Kali?
Currently I am training in Kali and MT, and haven't had a chance to address this same question yet in class.

[yenhoi]

In some FMA, red5, you train weapons with power side forward, and empty hand weak side forward. Some dont care either way, and train both, some are opposite, etc. Some train one way for awhile, and then train the other for a bit, then .... Eventually in most FMA you would be exposed to both, and forced to experiment with both.

[red5angel]

I noticed Aps comment on switching in Kali as well and I think he even mentioned because of the weapons so he wanted to stay consistant. I haven't done any weapons training yet, just the empty hands stuff so far and so far no one has discouraged me from weak side first.

[apoweyn]

yep. i also did a little fencing in that time, to shed some more light on eskrima (some of which is derived from western fencing). and, of course, fencers lead with their dominant hand as well.

my teachers tried to emphasize that the value of an art that includes weapons isn't just being able to fight in different modes (empty hand, armed with a knife, armed with a stick), but to go from one to the other relatively seamlessly. to my thinking, that was easier if i was structurally consistent from one to another.

of course, there are always exceptions to the rule.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

with fencing it makes more sense to me, or knife work etc.. since you want the poke-type weapon in your strongest hand, to as HOL puts it, "make sharp things go through soft things that scream and bleed."
I think I just feel better about jabbing with my weak hand, since the jab is a "weak" shot anyway and being able to really deliver a decisive blow with my strong hand.

[apoweyn]

well, i'm not trying to convert you, obviously. but my thinking is this:

my left hand is my weaker hand. that doesn't mean that it's just weak. i'm pretty comfortable with the power of that hand now. i'm less comfortable (because of the specific way i've trained) with the accuracy, speed, and versatility of that left hand. and those are all attributes i would want honed in a lead hand. if i'm going to use something like the jab to dictate range and pace, create openings, etc., then that jab better be accurate and versatile.

i guess this is what it comes down to: we've got a dominant hand and a nondominant hand. if the nondominant hand is going to be at all useful, we need to train into it certain attributes. many people opt to train speed, accuracy, etc. into their nondominant hand, leaving their dominant hand to provide power. other people opt to train power generation into that nondominant hand, relying on the dominant one to control the environment enough to get the nondominant one delivered on target.

either way, there's training involved. right? the nondominant hand is generally not particularly coordinated in any sense, so any way you look at it, you're going to have to deliberately work on that hand.


stuart b.

[David Jamieson]

It is a precept of Southern Shaolin CMA to gain balance, strength and equal ability with both sides of the body.

Particularly the Hung styles adhere to this precept.

All the southern Shaolin forms I was taught have both sides worked equally with the same techniques.

The North Shaolin I learned does not strictly adhere to this precept in it's forms. At least not those forms that I have learned, but there are plenty of augmentation exercises that encourage the idea. Plus I didn't learn all the North Shaolin forms yet, so perhaps further into the curriculum this is addressed by the style.

cheers

addendum; the ten road tan tui that i learned before starting into the core forms of North Shaolin works all techniques with both sides evenly.

[yenhoi]

Quote ap:

..the accuracy, speed, and versatility...

--

I think this is some of the reason to train the other hand (side)forward, to balance things out.

either way, there's training involved. right?

Buts thats half the fun :D The other half is bashing peoples skulls... lol :eek:

[red5angel]

Ap - my power form my left hand is pretty good, my accuracy could use some work. But that makes me wonder about something. When I was apprenticing to make bows I learned an interesting fact. With the bow, people tend to shoot instinctively with their strong hand, however, you should be shooting with your dominant eye!! (We learned a cool trick with kids if you ever want to find out a small childs dominant eye, give him a tube or a rolled up piece of paper and tell him to look through it like a trelescope or something. They almost always go to their dominant eye.)

I wonder if this idea plays into it at all?

Kung Lek - I know some CMA forms tend to work both sides of the body, sort of getting halfway through and then reversing to work the other side about half way through or so. Some alternate.

My intent at this point is to train both equally for now since I am at the 'beginning' of this type of training anyway and then go from there. Regardless of your subtle attempts to have me do it your way Ap ;)

[SevenStar]

In my kali/jun fan days, we trained strong side forward. I'm comfy with either lead though, and actually like fighting southpaw.

[Laughing Cow]

We train both sides.

[apoweyn]

d-mn you red5angel, for resisting my cunning attempts to lure you to the right lead stance.

:)

honestly, it doesn't bother me much one way or another. i'm used to training with people who use both leads. as i trained in a JKD-type class for a long time, i'm used to working against the right lead. but as i've worked with a lot of people outside that class as well (and most people obviously use an orthodox lead), i've gotten used to that too. no big deal either way.

as for the archery, that's interesting. let me ask you this: the hand you're considered to be shooting with is the one that releases, right? if so, then i learned as a right-handed shooter (ironically resulting in a left lead stance). but when i was a lot younger, my parents bought me this beautiful bow second hand. custom made for a left-handed archer. be interesting to see if i'm left-eye dominant.

hmm...


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Well, for shooting this is how it works for me. I am right handed, strongly, and so release with my right hand. I am also lucky to be right eye dominant ad so it works out for me because that is the eye that is the most accurate for me. That also means that I have a left-lead stance.
Your dominant eye is usually the eye, like your dominant hand, that you tend to use when you have to close one eye. The other thing that I have found personally, is that if I have one eye open and one closed, and then alternate, when I open my left eye and close my right eye, my perception, shifts more then when it's the other way around, if that makes sense.
Some of it just depends on what you are used to if you have already been using one side to shoot. I heard plenty of stories of archers switching sides and eventually getting much better though.

[apoweyn]

interesting.

of course, i haven't shot an arrow in ages (aside from a few at the yearly renaissance festival in annapolis). but i've still got the general idea.

cheers red5.

[red5angel]

LOL! Not sure sure how your rennaissance festival is set up but if it is one of those hit the target win a prize deals the arrows are usually crap. When I was apprenticing out to this bowyer, I met him at a Ren Fest and he wanted me to manage his booth. In colorado we had a archery game right down the street from us. Ironically they would wander down the street from the game in our direction. We had these bows we let people shoot so we could show them how to shoot properly and they would come from this game having barely hit the back wall, much less the target and in about 2-3 shots we had them grouping in about a 4-5 inch area!

Check this out though, the guys sons had been shooting since they were 3! His youngest at the time, about 5 could hit a bullseye 3 out of 4 times. His oldest son, about 8 could hit a pine cone swinging in front of the target!

That was an interesting time for me actually a lot of great stories...hehe, one of these day sI will tell you about the guy wearing the chainmail shirt.....
or maybe the arrow that comes back to you....

[apoweyn]

:)

i could hit a back wall with a pine cone. does that win me anything?

[red5angel]

maybe at the special olympics....maybe not.

[Kinjit]

AFAIK, most people who have experience of knife combat seem to prefer leading with the live hand, as knives most oftenly are employed at clinch-range.