My Burning Kung-Fu question

[fa_jing]

In Wing Chun, we are taught to move the shoulders and hips as one unit. Twisting power comes from the legs and feet and sinking into the stance which moves the hip. Advancing power is added as the whole body steps as one unit. The torso is tensed at the right moment, including the abdomenal muscles, to assist in transferring the energy. Even as I hit the heavy bag, I practice these principles. My Sifu punches like a freight train and punches this way, even if he is throwing Boxing-style punches his shoulders and hips rotate as one unit. We generally don't move the shoulders past the hips or distort the plane of the torso more than maybe an inch or two, just enough to engage the musles and transfer the force. The punches come out short and crisp and are powered by the legs and hips, and of course the pressing muscles (shoulders, triceps, etc.)

While in northern Shaolin, the shoulders move past the hips, more waist twisting is used. This feels less solid to me, but more muscles are engaged and there is more potential for reach.

I've seen Western Boxers that exhibit either of these two ways of throwing a punch, depending on their style. The more straight-ahead guys seem to punch the first way. But generally, I'd say that Western Boxers keep a strong, stable base and use more of the waist twisting to generate the power.

So my burning question is, which way do you guys think is better?
Rotate shoulders past the plane of the hips, or do not?

[Budokan]

If you do rotate the plane of your shoulders past the plane of your hips, doesn't that generate a little more torque than if you kept both planes (hips and shoulders) parallel? And wouldn't a little more torque be desirable since it would allow more energy to be transmitted into the punch...?

[fa_jing]

Yes there is more potential for torque - but it's the connectedness that I'm not feeling. Of course I don't train this way. I also wonder if defensivelly, it would expose more of your structure?

[red5angel]

I think the ideas for which you speak fa_jing are more suited to wing chun then say some other arts like Muy Thai. In wing chun it's integral that you keep your structure solid and I believe the way you learn to do things in wing chun pivots around these ideas.
For me, shoulders first then hips gives me more snap in my kicks and my kicks feel more powerful, but we both know wing chun kicks are as all things, based on structure and the generation of power through that.

[ShaolinTiger00]

for real power you have to twist.

classic example.- a right cross from the orthodox stance.

[yenhoi]

Eventually you learn to link and unlink in WCK, allowing you to swing the shoulders past the hips and maintain structure. (actually just regain structure.)

Also, In the clinch/trapping distance, rarely dou you have the room for long arm whipping type mechanics. This being the distance that WCK would ideally want to be fighting in. (From a style perspective.)

The limiting factor is experience, Im sure at some point you just do whats necessary, which might mean "breaking" some sort of principle or what not. Specifically speaking, looking at our WCK sayings, the principles are just a starting point, not a square hole you fit in.

IMO.

[MightyB]

My Burning Kung-Fu question

Penicillin will clear it right up.:)

[norther practitioner]

Of course I don't train this way.

I think thats it right there.

[fa_jing]

ST00 - yes you have to twist, but the movement that takes you through that twist can occur from the hips downward, instead of in the waist. Example: Lifting your back heel off the ground along with your right cross, keeping the hip more in line with the shoulder.

Also, I'm realizing that if you move the shoulders past the hips, it may increase your torque, but may detract from your stepping power.

Red5 - I'm not talking about round kicks, just punching.

[red5angel]

yenhoi, I have to disagree with some of your ideas beihnd WCK. First of all unlinking shouldn't happen unless it absolutely has to.

"the principles are just a starting point, not a square hole you fit in."

This isn't necessarily true and sort of gives your JKD background away. WC relies on its principles at all times. Without proper alignment, structure and root you don't have wing chun.


fa_jing, sorry, didn't finish what I was getting at! I think punching is more powerful with more torque. That's why in wing chun you don't hear about finishing blows so much as blasting through defenses and pouring it on until they cave. The punches aren't as powerful as you might be able to generate buy winding up, so you drop a few more in there.

[fa_jing]

You guys need to see my sifu throw hooks on the heavy bag - I've got it on tape. Not WC straight punches, but clearly using the mechanics and linking I described. It helps that he's strong, but his power is just amazing.

[yenhoi]

First of all unlinking shouldn't happen unless it absolutely has to.

Kind of. There are alot of good reasons (scenarios) you might choose to unlink. Then there are things like hiding your center, which at times has alot to do with unlinking.

This isn't necessarily true and sort of gives your JKD background away. WC relies on its principles at all times. Without proper alignment, structure and root you don't have wing chun.


I was refering to the WCK 'sayings' - a list of which you can find on Augustine Fong's website (not my lineage), or planet wing chun, or wing chun kuen.com (I think... the place where RR writes...)

"WC relies on its principles at all times. "

One WCK principle is that of 'breaking' all the other ones. The #1 principle in both WCK and JKD is to take the other guy out.


I prescribe more chi sao for you! :D


Anyways, good JKD is WCK. :eek:

[red5angel]

"I prescribe more chi sao for you!"

I got your chi sao right here! ;)

"One WCK principle is that of 'breaking' all the other ones. The #1 principle in both WCK and JKD is to take the other guy out. "

I wouldn't applky too liberal an interpretation to that rule of breaking however. If WC is not done properly it fails. Visit most WC schools and you will see what I mean. :)


"Anyways, good JKD is WCK."

I understand the efficiency similarities, however I recommend you lay off the cold medicin in the middle of the day... :D

[yenhoi]

'Unlinking' is a WCK principle. You just cant learn it until you can 'link' properly. Also, unlinking doesnt mean you abandon the entire structure, its very possible to retract the energy from one part of the structure and still have a applicable structure - tai chi guys could write book upon book on this (probably have...)

WCK structure is very easy (and handy) to manipulate.

;)

It would be very sad if you got your ass kicked because you purposely did not tweak your shoulder that one time...

An example of unlinking for you - chi sau (luk sau?): When you 'switch' (huen sau) your fook to a tan, or your tan or bong to fook. Notice the energy and structure change in not only the hand/wrist/elbow/arm - but the entire application of your structure and stance.

WCK people would be really easy to deal with if the better individuals refused to unlink unless they had to.

[fa_jing]

guys - this is getting too theoretical here. I don't want to restrict the topic to Wing Chun.

translation: you're talking over my head :) :) :)

[yenhoi]

fa_jing: i think you should learn the merits of both, how to apply both, and be capable of either. When the situtation pops up, you will do what is required, or what you have been training, and hopefully they are the same thing.

However, training time and what Sifu says might be limiting. So do what Sifu says and train smart.

:D

[Braden]

fa_jing: Do you do any standing qigong/post holding?

[fa_jing]

Braden: no, why? Unless you consider Sil lum tao and one-legged sil lum tao to be standing post? I know the "embracing the tree" pose but I don't practice it.


Yenhoi - I feel comfortable with the way I was training. I don't want to spread myself too thin. I'm just dabbling here in another way of doing things at this point, and I'd like to know more about what makes other arts work.

Some nice replies, so far - thanks everybody

[dezhen2001]

red5: i disagree slightly... one exercise we do is that someone attempts to move your arm by pulling (not a lap a pull), and we just let go with that arm. it keeps the rest of our structure and they cant really do anything with that arm... as we hit :D

its very useful. ive found that if i DO keep my structure, im not good enough to move in properly yet so there is a light jerk/momenteraly loss of balance, which is when the person can take advantage of me.

just some of my experiences there.
dawood

[Braden]

What's one-legged sil lum tao?

Do you practice deep relaxation, sinking the stance, and deep abdominal breathing in sil lum tao?

I ask because the "feeling of your belly" you develop through these things (at least, as part of a post standing regime) greatly facilitate the "problem" you're facing.

While [I think] you're correct about the idea of structure maintaining; through various other mechanics, structure should have a certain pliability to it. When you have a "feeling of your belly" (as a sort of discrete, moving area), the relation between your hips and shoulders (within the context of maintaining structure) gains this sort of settled, relaxed pliability... the solution to the paradox of "your body moves all at once, but not all at once."

This is certainly something I struggle with in my practice.

[dezhen2001]

hi Braden... from my own experience of doing wing chun and qigong i kinda know what ur talking about...

doing Siu Lim Tao creates a similar feeling, but its not of course exactly the same as its used in a martial context. Baihui and Huiyin in line, sink the weight, centre, balance... relax use intention (siu lim tao = little idea form in english)... some people use certain breahting on certain movements but with us it is natural and not forced.

so to me its similar to zhan zhuang, but not quite. Also training on 1 leg is great! it really helps you learn to sink your dantian and relax! :)

dawood

[fa_jing]

1-legged SLT = SLT on one leg, the other is knee up foot hanging down loosely.


I can see what you're getting at, but in Wing Chun we strive to more everything as a unit. But not stiff as a board, there is a small movement as you say, but not like a baseball swing where the hips lead the shoulders significantly.

Our way of hitting is trained by our side to side stance pivoting drill usually on the heels. Although this kind of stance shift is rarely used in combat in my school, it trains you to move the shoulders and hips as one unit.

I hit pretty hard for my size, and my power is not out of proportion to the rest of my skills. So I don't have a problem per se, just a question.

[Braden]

I understand what you're saying and agree. I'm just saying you can add another mechanic to that without losing it. :)

Circlewalking is all one-legged btw. I agree that it helps alot.

[red5angel]

dezhen, I am not sure what you mean but we used to do a rooting drill where you pull on each other while trying to maintain your root. Often you unlinked, however, in application you were suuposed to moce forward. It was a drill designed to teach you one basic application and focus on that.

Wing chun people seek to destroy their opponents structure for a reason.....

[dezhen2001]

hey buddy, its hard to explain... the thing is, we ARE still rooted, just for example my arm isnt. that way we can hit or move more easily without the 'jerk' and loss of balance you get when someone pulls your arm. its bloomin hard to do! Ive used is successfully against some friends who do aikido and jujitsu and it seemed to work pretty good... no matter if i had to move, turned or stayed still.

it was just my attempt at giving an example... dont worry about it :)

dawood

[red5angel]

dezhen, no problem. I think I know what you are talking about. In my old school when we did drills like that, mostly just trying to relax or go soft against resistance instead of resisting, we were breaking that link.
For instance, in the drill I was talking about it, the person feeding in the drill pulls on both your arms away from you and down. You are supposed to stay in your stance. I was getting really frustrated because I couldn't stay in my stance and I couldn't stop myself from stepping forward to leaning over. Eventually my instructor revealed to me that no one could. You had to step forward in reality, not breaking the link.

fa_jing, ultimately I still believe you get more power with torque, punching or kicking, but in the framework of wingchun, keeping your shoulders and hips linked works well.

[fa_jing]

Probably more important than which of these two methods of delivery, is leaning into the punch to transfer the energy.

[red5angel]

fa_jing, what do you mean?

[fa_jing]

Well, my sifu showed us a way of generating a transfer of power, using the focus mitts or Thai pads. Try standing and throwing a straight left - a certain amount of power. Now try leaning, so that your heels are coming off of the ground and you are sort of falling as you strike. BAM! Same goes for a shot with the rear hand - step out and foward and transfer you're weight to the front foot as you bring the back up, so that you'll fall past the point of contact as you follow through. I think this is a similar type of power that is generated with a falling step, as well as the principle of having your body move behind the weight as in Wing Chun stepping. But my thing is to combine the Wing Chun stepping, with a little lean at the end to really whack the target. Because you can't always take a long step to generate the power - sometimes it is inch stepping or no stepping.

[red5angel]

I see what you are saying. It makes sense, however, you sacrifice your connection to the ground and your rootedness by throwing your weight forward. Leaning makes you vulnerable generally speaking in my book.

[fa_jing]

The whole point is that you connect on the shot, which keeps you from falling over. If you don't connect for some reason just keep stepping foward. This is only for a power shot, anyway, where you are reasonably sure you are going to connect with something.

[red5angel]

Well, like I said, it sounds reasonable, just not wing chun like. Of course you know me! :)