Effectiveness of tai chi.

[Killagorrila]

Hey ppl,

I was wondering what people's opinions are on the effectiveness of tai chi in real-life combat situations. Does anyone have any experiences of it being really useful and effective? I myself had two or three lessons about a year ago, but then the club I was in stopped running.
A while later a friend and myself were engaged in 'friendly' combat and as he went to hit me in the face, I saw my arm arc out and block the attack automatically, without me even thinking about it. Is this the sort of way tai chi can work in real situations?
Although, of course, this was not a 'real' confrontation - but has anyone found that tai chi can prove useful in that the practioner finds it easier to remain calm when engaged in real-life combat, and does it really make you extremely fast when you are well experienced in this martial art?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Well there are NO BLOCKS in Tai Chi so maybe what you did what more likely to be a reflex action.I have limited experience in Tai Chi and it has saved my bacon a few times. I feel comfortable with it as a martial art and as self protection in life.

[Killagorrila]

Thanks for the response, Repulsive Monkey.

It is a while since I did those tai chi lessons, and I can't even remember what style it was - I think it was Yang, and I was doing a 16 move short-form.

Anyway, there is one particular move that I was told was designed to allow you to grab the arm of an attacker, as they go to strike you, and divert their energy away form you - or something like that. The block that I found myself doing (the way my arm arced) was exactly the same as a segment of this particular move. Do you think that although the move was not originally designed as a block, a small segment of that move proved perfect as a block for me on that particular occasion? I ask this because I have never found myself blocking a punch in this way before, reflex or otherwise.

[jun_erh]

I have a tape (in chinese which I don't speak) of a guy who does a tai chi movement like 10 times then shows the application on this fellow in a yellow sweatsuit. The applications themselves are sort of mediocre by modern standards, but you can see where he's coming from with it. Wish I could tell you the name of the tape!

[Non-Combative]

As a newbie to the forum I'm not sure how economical I need to be with the advice as I see a lot of styles on here, many proclaiming to be self defence orientated.
What I can tell you my friend, from personal experience at least, is that Tai Chi is one of the most lethal yet passive of the Chinese arts.
All the moves in Tai Chi are combat effective but require years of learning to nurture.
I have been a practicioner for 8+ years and believe that I have learned the true basics, namely: The art of warding off (some may call this blocking but I liken it to a re-direction of force), strong legs and an almost 'root like' stance. A powerful punch, strong grip, and a 360 degree defensive security which is difficult to break.
We have 'crossed palms' with many other styles and have found the Tai chi art to be very effective against other schools of the chinese arts.
The main plus against other styles (including a self defence class we 'played against') was that their aggression was easily neutralised.
As an example we once crossed plams with a Sensei of Ju-Jutsu (yep I know it's Japanese :) ) who played attack almost as a shoot fighter. This man simply had nothing to grab hold of; as fast as he thought he was, he wound up cartwheeling and running out of steam whilst Sifu barely broke a sweat.
In the short term, and for self defence, Ju-Jutsu is classed as almost street fighting, so I can say on this occasion that this 3rd Dan didn't fare too well.
The effectiveness of Tai Chi Chuan will only become apparent after several years of training, but if you are prepared to stick with it you will reap a fine whirlwind if and when the time comes to use it.
I have been lucky, I've never had to use mine in the street, but I've thrown people around in the kwoon and can testify to its effectiveness.
Kind Regards.

[iron thread]

without me even thinking about it. Is this the sort of way tai chi can work in real situations?

Every martial art works like this. Long, boring repititions of the same basic movements make it so you can automatically apply the movement without thought.


does it really make you extremely fast when you are well experienced in this martial art?

The idea is sung makes fast. Sung roughly means relaxed, but not completely relaxed. A major part of taiji is being sung, so yes.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Well there are NO BLOCKS in Tai Chi so maybe what you did what more likely to be a reflex action.I have limited experience in Tai Chi and it has saved my bacon a few times. I feel comfortable with it as a martial art and as self protection in life.

How do you define a block?

[Laughing Cow]

As far as I know TJQ does not practice blocks as blocks.

Here is a theory I once heard, don't know if it is true though:
Chen TJQ was developed against armored opponents thus Chen TJQ tends to twine around the limbs and not do straight attacks & blocks.
Chen members did protect Caravans heading do the middle east.

Yang TJQ on the other Hand was modified for the imperial court where NO armour is worn and thus is more linear than Chen TJQ.

But than we don't really know all the Arts that YLC really studied either before and after Chen Village and what impact they had on the final Yang style.
Also at the imperial Court he would have come into contact with many other MA Masters & styles being taught there.

Just some views.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm if i remember rite Yang changed his style to suit Imperial court so rite now this is known as Imperial Yang style.
anyways...
effectiveness of tai chi is always been talked about, not much ppl can utilise it , those who can are surrounded with controversies...
frankly i havn't seen anyone by myself...
i do taichi too n i hav found that i hav used some of it's principles while sparring(warding off, soong(hopefully)) with some Taiji QinNa but i won't give exact credit to taiji about my fighting ability.
i m kind of person who can make TaeBo(no offence :D) works,
but i think if u learning Taiji as Martial art then u should fight with it(no matter how many times u get squished, crashed)
may be adapting to taiji principles will take time but still if u can't learn fight then u shouldn't say that u r learning a MA.
-TkdWarrior-

[Repulsive Monkey]

Well the reason wht Tai Chi doesn't have blocks is based upon it's first principle of NOT to use force against force. By doing this one loses sensitivity and its just brute Li against Li. Tai Chi advocates joining sticking following and then issuing. A block doesn't fit in with this idea due to it truncating the whole unbroken operation.

[RAF]

In some of the advanced practices of traditional Northern Chinese martial arts, the action taken or technique becomes both offensive and defensive. The block also is the strike and requires great ting jing skill and chan si jing skill. Flexibility becomes much more than holding your leg up high and touching it as is so often seen in the performance of Yang's taijiquan.

None of this is necessarily unique to Yang taiji. In upper levels of bagua the the strike and block become one.

However, taiji roots are grounded in long fist and at lowever levels of practice blocks are utilized. Yun shou, wave hands clouds is an good example.

Yang taijiquan is but one of many fine systems developed as a Northern Chinese martial art system. You might be surprised to find that its high level techniques are not unique and found in other arts. The uppper levels of other arts have all received far less exposure than taiji (or at least what has been written about Yang's taiji).

There is no "mystery" in Yang's taijiquan, just refinement of basic skills into advanced levels.

[Liokault]

RAF


However, taiji roots are grounded in long fist and at lowever levels of practice blocks are utilized. Yun shou, wave hands clouds is an good example.


An interesting statement that I would very much like you to back up.

[RAF]

Liokault:

You don't believe the best historical evidence or you don't believe that wave hands like clouds can be used for a block?

[taijiquan_student]

How do you see it as a "block", RAF? I see it as ward-off (moving forward of course, even though in the form it is moving sideways).

[Liokault]

RAF


However, taiji roots are grounded in long fist


This part.

[RAF]

The blocks are in process to open up the chest and heart area and the final move is a strike to the heart. It requires you to use both sides but moving forward. Its technique is very similar to that found in a particular pi gua movement.

But, you know what? Its impossible to do this over a post and I can see this is going to turn into a discussion as to what constitutes a block and whether its "really" applicable and who used this in a fight and who is the tough guy etc. etc. etc..

Its not that important and its best simply to let a sleeping dog lie.

[RAF]

Lioukault:

I buy the Chen story line with full knowledge that the historical evidence will never conclusively prove the origins of taiji.

Jarek's site has a comparision of longfist pao quan and Chen's movements, I have seen some of tai zu quan, the posts are a couple of other places and I swallow, hook line and sinker, Henning's writing on the inablity to prove Zhang Sang Feng's existence. I also accept Jiang Fa's relationship to Chen Wang Ting fully knowing that there may be other explanations.

However, after reading through JAMA, Chen Style research Journal, TaijiquanJournal, China Review I conclude its the most probable explanation. Beyond that, I find no reason to attack any others beliefs and I am still open to some finding that completely overturns it.

But like I posted previously, its really not that important. I happen to like Chen and Yang taiji a great deal. Although I have walked through Wu style, long form, I can't say I know it. Wang Pesheng's material strikes me as being a very good represenation of Wu style. I believe you practice the Wu style of Dan Docherty (?) and his book was also very good regardless of what he may or may not believe about Chen, Yang or the origins.

I have no more bones to pick with anyone's theories on the origins of taijiquan but for me, the longfist (tai zu quan, pao quan , hong quan and the 32 postures found in General Qi???) Chen Yang Wu whatever, suits me well and I just don't find taijiquan to be as unique as I once thought it was.

Besides all this, most of my time is now spent in trying to understand and practice the basics in bagua. However, I still have a great deal of respect for all of the taijiquan systems.

But what hail, maybe I am wrong.

[les paul]

Wardoff or block...I think your both talking about the same thing.


In an age where Taijiquan is infected by hippy loving peacenicks who think Taijiquan is only good for making their gonad's warm, people should be getting the word out on just what it is.


Maybe this way the anti-war, veitnam protesting, dope smoking, ex-communist proffessor wanna-be's, will drop the word quan from their taiji.

Taijiquan in all styles possess just about the same techniques as Bagua or Xingyi. It is also just as mean and nasty. No, it isn't a Quanshu based on the rollback principles or absorbing the attacking force. Nor is it a defensive art like some percieve.

So, to the poster of the original thread. Taijiquan is very effective. To an outsider, in its truer forms (regardless of style) its looks a lot like greco roman wrestling with a lot of wicked kicks, strikes, sweeps and throws going on. Tactics normally are based around attacking then closing the distance through some sort of bridging technique. Or deflecting an attack in a way where the distance has been bridge by the opponent for you. Here at this close range taijiquan excells because of toushou and chin-na (not to forget the use of fajing in the close quarter striking and kicking to include elbows and knees etc....).

It's an in-close nasty way to fight, period. No other way to say it! Somebody figured out that most fights are prone to clinching and devised a nasty system around this concept.


If half the story is true about Yang Luchan walking around Beijing (the mecca of martial arts in the east) with a sign around his head, saying "Bring it!" to anyone who dared. Hmmm... This doesn't sound like a peace loving guy to me. If the story is even a 1/4%true....He must have been a real bad azz and knew it, and was out to make a name for himself.

Yes Taijiquan is effective. You just will have to go down the rabbit hole to find this out. Don't worry about the fat soccer moms and the wanna-be know it alls, they won't follow. ****t !!!Most of their instructors don't even know where to look for the rabbit hole..................This includes most of the Han Chinese instructors that I've incountered too.......

[Fu-Pow]

So, to the poster of the original thread. Taijiquan is very effective. To an outsider, in its truer forms (regardless of style) its looks a lot like greco roman wrestling with a lot of wicked kicks, strikes, sweeps and throws going on. Tactics normally are based around attacking then closing the distance through some sort of bridging technique. Or deflecting an attack in a way where the distance has been bridge by the opponent for you. Here at this close range taijiquan excells because of toushou and chin-na (not to forget the use of fajing in the close quarter striking and kicking to include elbows and knees etc....).

Yep....good description. Taiji as I know it is all about joint locking/breaking. The key is not resisting your opponent and just let him tie himself up. You just lead him into it. In addition you can escape Chi Na because you never resist. Its like the old story of the snake avoiding the eagle. And on top of that you have the "Short power" strikes with the elbows, fists and knees. And also throws and crowding/breaking your opponents structure.

The key to all of this though is that it is never done using muscular force against muscular force.

Simple on the surface but very difficult understand and pull off properly.

Many people don't realize that Taiji is as violent and nasty a martial art as they come. In some ways worse for the opponent than other more well known "kicking and striking" arts.

It's just a different way of using your body to do it.

The "hippy" Taiji you guys describe is more beneficial in a Chi Gung kind of way.

[Laughing Cow]

I have found that Tjq (Chen in my case) contains a myriad of possible attacks, defense moves, etc.

If you can find a good teacher than can show you all the possible applications it will open your eyes to the effectivness and versatility of TJQ.

Cheers.

[les paul]

When I posted the above, I thought I was sure to get flak about Taijiquan being a non- agressive art.


It seems the more someone does not know about Taijiquan, the more they try to cover up the fact by citing ****t about health improvent or fixating on postures to the determinant of all else.

Nothing new.........


I can't wait when these people start showing up in Bagua or Xingyi. Concidering how they up and start teaching or writing and publishing books with little or no experience.

With Bagua being the new flavor of the month, it should be anytime now.


YEP!! ANYTIME NOW........

I can see it now


a 333 page Bagua manual on the health and stress relieving benifits and not one word of bagua being a martial art.

Next will be a quarterly magizine on Bagua that doesn't talk about anything but postures and Qi. They would fill it from cover to back with great articles on stress reduction.


Oh wouldn't it be grand.......

[Walter Joyce]

Hate to speed up your schedule, but they are already out there.

You can't save everyone, so why worry about the deluded or misguided, just practice what you know to the best of your ability, then practice some more.

[Kaitain(UK)]

ward off/ block

if a block is defined as nothing more than stopping an attack from hitting you, then of course taiji has blocks

if a block is defined as using resisting and opposite force to a strike (shodan, gidan type movements), then Taiji shouldn't have it

ward off by it's nature should be diverting incoming force away and allowing one to strike by spiralling up the incoming arm. That's a crappy explanation :) Stick, adhere, connect and follow type stuff

It's fair to say that at higher levels Karateka should be developing something similar. It's just a different route to take. Taiji starts soft and concentrates on developing correctly - makes some of it worthless to start with though. Karate starts off with hard external movement and (sometimes) softens it later - upside is something more useful at early stages.

[Fu-Pow]

It's fair to say that at higher levels Karateka should be developing something similar. It's just a different route to take. Taiji starts soft and concentrates on developing correctly - makes some of it worthless to start with though. Karate starts off with hard external movement and (sometimes) softens it later - upside is something more useful at early stages

Good point. All martial arts, especially chinese martial arts have the idea of non-muscular "internal" power generation and techniques.

Especially at the higher levels.

Southern kung fu has float, sink, spit, swallow. Taiji has Peng, Lu, Ji, An.

The basic is of "an iron thread wrapped in cotton."

My Choy Lay Fut stresses twisting and stretching out the ligaments and tendons to generate this type of power.

However, in an art like Taiji (when done correctly) there is zero muscular force. Yes, you read that correctly ZERO muscular force.

Its very hard to get to this level.

So the external arts have a distinct advantage as far as actual applicability (especially if you're already strong) because they can be used without having developed this "steel wrapped in cotton" quality.

[les paul]

In Taijiquan whenever someone say's Block, I automatically think "Parry."

Shoot! When anyone say's Block, I think parry...."Now what type are we talking about?" I'll reply.

I assume they are thinking the same.....

An actual block in the external sense isn't in Tajiquan vocabulary.

I try to be like African Bushmen who don't have a word for snow.

While at the same time also trying to become like the Eskimo's who have 23 meanings for snow.

I.e. (I'm refering to the many words and definitions for parry in Taijiquan, we seem to have quite a few if you think about.


Just some thoughts

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Why is it that so many threads insist on relating "hippys and peaceniks" to poor Tai Chi? All things considered, i may well fit that description, however.. i have also spent over 30 years developing my Martial Arts, the last 15 almost exclusively internal.. i teach applications, i teach controled and free-sparring.. and, i can't help but wonder why people who profess to be Tai Chi players engage in such blatant prejudicial commentary.. Sure, i look for a peaceful solution to any confrontation, i only use enough force to control an agressive person, but i assure you that when the game gets "full-on" i and my students are prepared and capable...

Here's a short story.. When i first started working (many years ago) my crew-chief was a retired Lt. Colonel, USAF. We were driving past McCoy AFB and the sign out front read "Peace is our Profession".. i laughed and asked, "how is a plane full of nukes peaceful".. The Colonel said "son, there's nothing more peaceful than a bunch of dead folks".. Moral: even peace is subjective..

But, to address the subject of the thread, indeed, Tai Chi is effective.. it is effective as a martial art, as a meditation, as a health exercise, and together with its Taoist philosophy it is effective as a way of life.. i started Martial Arts in the late '60s with a hard Japanese system, Yoshukai and bounced around until i found CMA in the '80s.. today, i can say without hesitation that the Internal Martial Arts are by far the most effective self-defense of which i am aware (at their highest levels).. unfortunately or fortunately, you be the judge, much training and dedication over a substantial period of time is required to acheive these higher levels.. I also augment my training with QiGong and ChinNa.. i have developed a fondness for the efficiency and compatability of ChinNa.. it seems that Tai Chi effectively sets-up an opponent for ChinNa applications..

I think there may be subtle differences between blocking and deflecting, sometimes too subtle to define.. except by looking for the connectiveness and redirected use of the opponents energy, returning it to the opponent while adding some of your own..

anyway, just another perspective.. Be well..

[Robert]

Does anyone have any suggestions to videos that show tai chi (chen/yang/whatever) in it's true nasty-combat-effectiveness? Are there any trustworthy sources for effective application?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Robert
Does anyone have any suggestions to videos that show tai chi (chen/yang/whatever) in it's true nasty-combat-effectiveness? Are there any trustworthy sources for effective application?

1.) There are Videos out there that show and "teach" applications.
Try a place like Wayfarer publications or similar.

2.) Trustworthy sources for effctive application??
I would say any good Sifu should do.
Keep in mind that TJQ is not that rigid and fixed thus we can get multiple applications both defensive and aggressive out of the same movement.

3.) If you want to learn the applications forget Vidoes & Books and go study under a good Sifu.

Cheers.

[Robert]

But one of those masters must have shown some variation of applications somewhere on video...

Does anyone have a specific vid they can recomend, rather than a look online?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Robert
But one of those masters must have shown some variation of applications somewhere on video...

Does anyone have a specific vid they can recomend, rather than a look online?

Then don't look online but don't expect other people to do your research either.

As I mentioned there are Tapes that deal exclusively with applications, which ones those are I can't remember as I learn from my Sifu not Tapes.
Plus, most of those Tapes are for different TJQ styles.

[Nanking '28]

thank you TaichiBob...the reason hippies have gravitated toward tai chi is to learn to defeat the attitudes of people wrapped up in the masculinist aggressive **** that leads to denouncing TaiChi hippies....we'll still beat your ass, we'll just let you do most of the work!!!
In my school we train in locks, throws, chiin na, and in sparring drills...we also, in the historical vein of Yang Shr and the teachings of Master Chen Pan Ling concentrate foremost on physical and mental health...

LP- you seem to be degrading the primary health benefits of Taichi training...sure, the style is mean and nasty and I think that rabbit hole is what keeps most of us coming back, but at the same time wouldnt you rather solve a conflict in the least confrontational way possible? We are taught properly- to deflect before checking, to check before striking, to strike before maiming, to maim before killing....

You did raise a great question though- Was Cheng San Feng a nice guy??? I doubt it...
thanks guys....

[Robert]

laughing cow,

I'm not looking for you to do my research. And I'm glad you learn from your sifu, not video. Fine. But a few members in the forum seem to have a lot of experience with the martial side of Tai chi. I thought why not ask someone with experience about a video choice. Obviously that is NOT you since you don't learn from Video, therefore there is no need for you to respond to a question about a quality video with a fact that you don't learn from video...

[Robert]

Wujidude,

Thank You!

[Laughing Cow]

Robert.

If you had gone to Wayfarers piublication as I recommneded you would have found quiet a bit.

BTW, Wujidude gave you the link to it in his reply.

We don't know what sub-style or even style you study, what your Tjq experience is so it makes it hard for us to recommend things.

There are also lots of arguments about who is good and who isn't.

My guess was that you are still fairly new to the TJQ scene, as your inquiry was very generic, and thus I recommended a bit of research rather than relying on other Peoples opinion.

Cheers.

[looking_up]

Wujidude,

I have seen Zhang Zhijun's Xin Jia VCDs. If you are familar with Chen style xin jia, maybe you could answer a few questions for me:

* Is this "standard" chen style xin jia? Is this the way Chen Zhaokui performed his Xin Jia?

* Have you seen Chen Zhenglei's xin jia? Is it more or less similar to this one?

Any other general info you may have or could point me to would be appreciated.


Thanks,
LU

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't teach any of the known Taijiquan sets, but . . .

I've got a student who finished off an opponent using "Cloud Hands". That was performed as a double strike - head and groin simultaneously.

I have another student who used "Ward Off" to break a joint lock and then subsequently create space between herself and the attacker. She then used "Golden Rooster" to threaten him with her kick before she got the space to get away.

Another student used "Fair Lady Shuttles" to deflect a high incoming punch. He then slapped the attacker in the face, ending the fight right there.

[Robert]

sounds fierce

[Laughing Cow]

Yep.

TJQ applications are nasty.
Many movements like cloud-hands or similar could be seen as miniature MA systems in themselves.

Warriors attendand pounds the mortar "actually is a simultaneous attack on 3 points also referred to as the "Three pounding mortar".

I think it was YLQ that usually used "Grasp Sparrow Tails" to win all his fights."

TJQ has many applications that are not immediately visible to the untrained eye.
As each move can be used offensive or defensive in multiple ways.

[Subitai]

....because when you are approached by a "PERSON" wearing a colorful, furlined or flower decorated chengsan robe, smelling like incense and arguing in your face that they never knew Tai Chi could be used as a martial art.

--Or having a student quit your TC class because she said it was too martially focused...stating "I thought TC was only about inner exercises and getting healther"

Yeah, to me in these such cases, they branded and how!

The point is, even if your focus is only the Health aspect. You practice for the Martial to get the complete health. We all should know this.

"O"

PS. In CT. At Harkness Park. April 12th, 10am. World Tai Chi Day will take place one again. Guaranteed, i'll see a few hippies there, just like last year.

[les paul]

Originally posted by Nanking '28
thank you TaichiBob...the reason hippies have gravitated toward tai chi is to learn to defeat the attitudes of people wrapped up in the masculinist aggressive **** that leads to denouncing TaiChi hippies....we'll still beat your ass, we'll just let you do most of the work!!!
In my school we train in locks, throws, chiin na, and in sparring drills...we also, in the historical vein of Yang Shr and the teachings of Master Chen Pan Ling concentrate foremost on physical and mental health...

LP- you seem to be degrading the primary health benefits of Taichi training...sure, the style is mean and nasty and I think that rabbit hole is what keeps most of us coming back, but at the same time wouldnt you rather solve a conflict in the least confrontational way possible? We are taught properly- to deflect before checking, to check before striking, to strike before maiming, to maim before killing....

You did raise a great question though- Was Cheng San Feng a nice guy??? I doubt it...
thanks guys....


I have found people usually get upset with the "Hippie talk" only when it hit's close to home.

Go flower power!!!!!!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well.. it seems that some people are narrowly focused on only one aspect of a many faceted Art.. I applaud the prejudicial attitude that "hippies" are only in it for the peace, love and happiness.. because many of us will surprise you when the game gets full-on..

How is it that some people profess to be Tai Chi players yet assign values observed of one person to anyone that shares the same "appearance".. Now, if someone exhibits all the characteristics that you dislike, that you define as a Hippy.. if they don't care for the Martial basis for Tai Chi but find comfort in the health benefits, if they find that it enhances their meditation practices.. does that make them less qualified to receive instruction?.. In my opinion, one of the great values of Tai Chi is that it offers something for almost everyone.. I am even considering having a seperate class for the feel-good group.. oddly most of my "martial oriented" students are interested as well.. When i chose to teach Tai Chi i didn't choose to break it up into my personal favorite parts, i accepted the obligation to offer as much of it as i could.. What a shame if someday we reduced it to simply another martial art..

WuWei.. the middle way.. be there and every aspect of Tai Chi has equal merit.. be there and every person has equal value (even if they don't have your personal set of values).. Perhaps, if people didn't dismiss certain types of people, they may find their way to the martial harmony of the Art, but.. some people never give them the chance, their minds and attitudes are already closed to that option.. Much wisdom and value in living is lost to prejudice and assumption..

Be well.. do good deeds (deeds define us)..

[jon]

Maybe Tai Chi is just a skill and how one chooses to apply it is an individual pursuit?

Im personaly into the whole beating people about the head and body aspect of it. However i do know some very nice old Chinese ladies in a local park who seem to be doing a fine job of using it to keep themselfs healthy and social - who am i to tell them there wrong? I guess i *could* go and beat them up and 'prove' to them they have it all backwards? Then again some of them are technically much better than i am and i really wanna learn that fan form one of them is teaching, oh what a dilema:(

I know pleanty of people in Tai Chi who are much better than i am in form and i can spank easily in most forms of contact. Then again i seem to spend half my life talking about, practicing, testing - fighting. Its silly to think that someone who makes there focuss somewhere else will be as good at 'fighting'. Thats not to say they will be hopeless, just they will not be as skilled (in fighting)as someone who does focuss on fighting based skill.

Its a dumb and often brought up point, you get good and what you train at. Train to fight you will improve your fighting, train for health you will get healthy. Train for your weak knee and it will improve.

To be honest i get more offended when i see someone who is totaly rigid like a stone and going though the form like a karate kata, breathing heavily though each strained movement. Then professing to be using the 'fighting side' of the art.

[les paul]

Taiji is Yin and Yang. The Yin side is for good health and the Yang side is for pugilisim. They combine into one. You can't have Yin with out Yang. Most of the Classics were written about pugilism, and how it relates to health. Not the other way around. Yet, when you point this out to people who think Taijiquan is for health with a little martial on the side, your narrow minded and full of masculin ****. yea right! pigs fly too.


However........

In the De-Dao Qing
Chapter 11
It say's

Thirty spokes unite in one hub. It is precisely where there is nothing, that we find the usefullnes of the wheel. We fire clay and make vessals; It is precisely where there's no substance, that we find the usefullness of clay pots. We chisel out doors and windows; It is precisely in these empty spaces, that we find the usefullness of the room.

Therefore, we regard having something as beneficial; But having nothing as usefull.

This passage eludes to the things we hold dear that no one can take away from you. Things that have no physical substance, (i.e knowledge, experience your honor etc...). These are things very usefull to you and no one can take them away once built.

If your Taijiquan fits into this category (something you hold dear) ........then who cares what the **** I have to say..........

And on that note.......go do Taijiquan!


:O

[Shooter]

jon, nobody can argue your points. The problem is with all these so-called 'teachers' who pretend to be offering TCC as a fighting art, yet have no knowledge or experience in how to structure the training for the real. Very few 'teachers' know what they're doing. All you gotta do is read the forums to see that. They all think they're hard-core, but that's relative, and most of the time, not the case at all.

[Nanking '28]

Great posts you guys...just saying thanks for all the great conversation and pearls of wisdom everyone has to share. What a awesome medium...maybe one day we'll all have electric suits and be able to prove the effectiveness of taichi over all other cyber combat styles!!! later

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

i haven't seen any one here even imply that Tai Chi is more about health than Martial skills.. in fact, being healthy includes the ability to defend one's self.. What is interesting, though, is that if health is even brought up the Hippy Haters and tough-guys get offended (with hints of paranoia).. It seems that many on this forum believe that there is only one perspective, theirs.. Maybe there's simply no concern with the Taoist roots of Tai Chi, the QiGong, the medicine, the higher states of meditation, the other aspects of Tai Chi that support the Martial basis of our Art..

Another interesting observation is how often we see people making sweeping generalizations about the quality of teachers and students..


jon, nobody can argue your points. The problem is with all these so-called 'teachers' who pretend to be offering TCC as a fighting art, yet have no knowledge or experience in how to structure the training for the real. Very few 'teachers' know what they're doing. All you gotta do is read the forums to see that. They all think they're hard-core, but that's relative, and most of the time, not the case at all.

So, how does one acquire the skill of discerning the quality of ability through this medium? I, personally, reserve that determination until i have actual experience, until i visit a school or cross hands with a player.. What a pity it would be to alienate yourself from possibly a really good teacher simply because you don't like their interest in the health benefits of Tai Chi.. My training was such that whenever we were injured in sparring class, we were taught how to fix the injury with herbs, massage, and rehabiltative exercises.. you know, health stuff.. We were taught how to use Qigong to build chi and regulate our energy systems for maximum expression of the Martial aspects of Tai Chi.. We were taught how to meditate in such a way as to calm the mind in the face of chaotic situations (physical conflict included).. we were taught about diet and the best eating habits to maintain a strong and efficient body.. And, although these training methods were intended to support the "effectiveness of Tai Chi" as a martial system, they also improved overall health.. why not market health as another benefit of Tai Chi?

It is my opinion, however unpopular, that we do Tai Chi an injustice by presenting it as only a combat sport.. We can't change peoples perspectives if we don't let them in the door, if we chase them away because their interest is not fully on whuppin' a$$.. some of these people professing "health interests" may well need only to be gently exposed to the Martial aspect Tai Chi to embrace it.. Theres plenty of places to get combat training, Tai Chi can be so much more than another just another one of those and still excell in the combat arena as well.. We are each entitled to our opinions, but i respect those that are based on experience, not prejudice..

Just my two cents.. Be well..

[les paul]

I don't get offended when someone brings up health issues related to Taijiquan and I'm guessing I'm one of those so called tuff guys.

I differ from many health gurus as well as others on this net too. Taijiquan to me is first and foremost is a martial art. Not just any martial art, it's an Internal martial art!. Taijiquan was not created by a bunch of beaten down farmer Samurai as in Ryu kyu Tode Jutsu, nor did a bunch of recluse Buddhist monk’s ala Shaolin Quanshu create it. As a degree holder in philosophy, I know Buddhism runs in many cases counter to Daoism…. heck, anyone who knows of the famous tea sipping prints/pictures know this. (just about every Han Chinese does)

So for me, Buddhist monks going up to the mountains of Honan to practice Daoism and in the mean time create a health art are a serious stretch. I.e. (Wudang Mountains and a Shaolin orgin are a stretch)

Taoist priests yes, Buddhist influence no. Taosim with its belief in natural philosophy (way of nature in realation to force etc...) is a great platform for martial arts, more so than Buddihism. This is not to say these external arts are not effective nor of substance.

My point is that warrior scholars created most of the internal arts. Neither priest nor farmer invented it. They are the thinking man's intellectual way of fighting. They are high tech and extremely efficient as martial arts go. Along with the high tech martial art come Chinese apothecary skills


For me it's not the "The warrior doctor? " But the warrior scholar.......


Again, usually when people get upset about generalizations there is something to it with them. With the information age at hand, (i.e. more and more information coming out of China) fakes, frauds and wann-be hippie masters are being exposed in the internal arts. Waving a Taiji gim dao around doesn't make one a master of sword, nor does knowing a few application in the Quan, Nor exstensive experience in wushu gymnastics. I've seen that too.

It seems to me that if one is into health, why not go to a Chinese doctor and apprentice under him/her? If you’re into the health benefits look there, you will learn much more than any Taijiquan instructor can teach you. (Including great chi-gong!)



It's always the same when someone starts talking about Taijiquan as a martial art, healthy happy hippies start yelling about making it a competitive sport! I like competitive tou shou and I think it's a great thing. I like full contact sparring too!



Most of the Paisley people” found in Taijiquan refer to the martial side of it with the opinion that its just another martial art bla.... bla.... bla...there all the same.

I guess it comes from being clueless and never stepping into an external Kwoon or never in a real physical fight (not because you wanted to fight, but because someone forced you to defend yourself). Naked aggression can't be reasoned with.

Some of the most health knowledgeable internal artist is extremely proficient on the martial side, because they pursued both wu as well as the nei side with passion. One misses the major message if you don't study the martial side. (My opinion only) It's fine that people believe in their convictions, but some the public is becoming aware of what an Internal art is and are not buying what hippies are preaching anymore. From my prospective it appears that people who get upset which such martial talk are the ones have the most to loose. (i.e. face)

[Shooter]

hey Bob. In response to your first paragraph:

Discerning the quality of one's training and ability to teach through this medium is based on results and/or what ideas are being disseminated. Also, the broader one's experiences and exploration into the martial aspects, the greater the sum those avenues of exploration equate to. As one very important part of that sum, I asked about IMAs and knife-fighting once and aside from one person applying sound methodology to their training, I got nothing. Actually, the absence of info forthcoming from the IMAs instructors here on a wide range of topics pertaining to the real speaks volumes.

The idea that meditation is going to help you deal with violent conflict is fine, but what are you meditating on? Are you reflecting on the way your mind navigated a training scenario?...an actual experience of some sort?...or calm blue seas? Meditation as it applies to combative alacrity comes from an empowering mantra of some sort. Whatever the mantra, it has to come from a pertinent and deeply personal aspect of one's perceptive process. That type of meditation doesn't take place in quietutde. IME, it starts out as more of an epiphany which occurs while doing the hard work.

As stated at the top of every bit of promotional literature I've ever produced for my school, "Tai Chi Chuan: Sport~Health~Self-defense": Not necessarily in that order, but the usual progression in the training I offer has one leading into, and, in the case of health, resulting from the other 2.

In response to your second paragraph:

You say you respect those opinions which are based on experience. Mine tells me a lot about how Tai Chi is being trained just by what I read from others. There are only so many ways to fight. If what someone is saying doesn't coincide with the basics, it's not much of a stretch to see where those ideas will lead if they continue to go unchecked and untested in some sort of competitive/non-compliant environment. Sportive-based training (not necessarily ring-fighting) just happens to provide a very fertile ground for one's evolution, and understanding of how their system works on a basic level.

If someone is claiming to be teaching their system for self-defense, they're going to talk about ideas which are common to all reality-based training methodologies. Self-defense is a whole lot more than just "whuppin a$$", but you have to forge the will to whup a$$ first. Whenever I have a group of people training with me, I ask the same question of myself, "What can I give them now, today, that they can take out of here and apply immediately?" This automatically forces me to address the individual instead of the group. The group is symbiotic to the development of the individual's combative training. That means no line-drills or repetitive 'techniques'...no cookie-cutter approach. That's the basic first step in each and every session. I don't see that approach being discussed by very many IMAs 'teachers'.


some of these people professing "health interests" may well need only to be gently exposed to the Martial aspect Tai Chi to embrace it

IME, that doesn't happen. I may be surprised one day though... People come to Tai Chi so they don't have to sweat and bleed and continue to train with broken bones. They quit as soon as they get hurt... The best self-defense training is done when you're injured. It changes your whole outlook and hardens your resolve. It shows you how you'll function under real-life conditions. Try telling that to some chi-hugger though... They've rolled their eyes at me, physcally stepped back, and walked away in "disgust at my lack of empathy", as one guy put it.

Bruce

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Just to be clear.. i greatly approve of "martial talk", i have practiced martial arts for over 30 years.. in the dojo, in the kwoon, and on the street.. the issue, for me, is dismissing the health aspect as unimportant or worse, as irrelevant.. "Tuff guys" are a dime a dozen, teachers that have invested a lifetime discovering the depths of an Art or Arts are few and far between.. possibly, it is all the tuff guy talk that hides the lack of discipline needed to really understand the fullness of Tai Chi..

All in all, though.. it's no big deal.. If your life is enhanced by your practice, good for you.. If you dislike or fear hippies, good for you as well.. but, it would be foolish to suppose that everyone that looks like a hippy is just another passive flower-child.. such is not the case, i assure you..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

You sound experienced, you sound educated, your training approach sounds much like mine... If an actual meeting proved as solid as you sound, we might get along very well.. Thanks for the reply..

I can discuss many of the Martial techniques on this forum, but why?.. i tire of challenges, pitiful misinterpretations, and the general nonsense that abounds.. in short, at least 30 minutes of each of my classes is devoted to basics.. stances, breathing, rotation of the DanTien, flexibility training, etc.. 30 minutes for situational training (ie; how to apply learned techniques to situations) and 30 minutes for form work ( though this usually drags on a bit past 30 minutes), then one day a week for 2 hours +/- we fight, analyze, and fight again.. this is an informal class open to any who wish to attend, even those from other schools..

The Meditation i teach is one of "no thought".. learn to clear the mind so we can be present for the experience at hand, not digging through a bag of tricks.. a clear mind allows our training to emerge.. the time spent thinking in a confrontation is the time it takes to miss an opportunity or a defense.. the well-trained Martial artist simply responds to stimulus, they don't contemplate it..

Anyhow, thanks for the reply.. Be well..

[herb ox]

In support of TaiChiBob, I think the "hippie dance" crap needs to stop. I don't care for "softened" versions of Taiji taught without martial focus, BUT(!) not everyone is a "fighter" or "virtual tough guy". Taiji movement moves blood, lymph and qi. For some, that is simply enough. As such, each person should have the right UNIMPEDED by naysayers to practice his or her martial art. If you practice humility and compassion daily, and don't have the need to prove yourself to others, the chances of you actually needing to fight will be greatly reduced. If you don't realize the yin within the yang, your taiji practice is lacking.

"Alive, a man is supple, soft;
In death, unbending, rigorous.
All creatures, grass and trees, alive
are plastic but are pliant too,
and dead, are friable and dry.

Unbending rigor is the mate of death,
and yielding softness, company of life:
Unbending soldiers get no victories;
The stiffest tree is readiest for the axe.
The strong and might topple from their place;
The soft and yielding rise above them all."

Lao Tzu - Tao Te Ching #76

[Shooter]

herb ox, lol...my "virtual tough-guy/sensei" thing is a parody of a bunch of jibberish some tool posted once as a promo for his website.

I don't have a problem with people practicing for health. When a teacher claims to be offering instruction in self-defense though,... IME, reading the various forums, and training with/visiting other TCC folks, there is very little (if any) structure in what the vast majority of TCC 'teachers' are offering when it comes to understanding TCC's H2H fighting method, weapons defense and retention, and the pshycology of violence.

[herb ox]

Shooter -
Good sir, I did not mean to single out your title to be malicious, and the post was not directed at you, but rather the attitude that I see rearing it's head. The title seemed appropriate to the idea of everyone having his or her own purpose in the martial arts. Especially in times like these, I feel we should be looking for ways to create unity, rather than creating segregation... cultivate virtue rather than war.

Let my vote be cast thus:
IMHO Taijiquan as taught by many clubs, community centers, colleges, etc (i.e. not coming from a martial master) is not taught as a fighting art, thus, is not practiced as such. While some classes may be inferior from a purely martial perspective, one should appreciate the health benefits, the mental quieting, and increased bodily awareness. I know people in their late 20s who suffer simply because too much inactivity lead to a state of sensory / motor "amnesia". TCC keeps you movin'...

Personally, I've practiced the Sun Lu-tang Taijiquan form for about 5 or 6 yrs. now, and I strive to extract it's martial meanings for useful application... however, I admit I have not reached the level of mastery in this form, either, so the battle continues, and I would not yet use it for street fighting. However, I do volunteer for a fine organization (http://www.rockmed.org/) where I often am required to restrain unruly patrons (i.e. drunk, tripping, violent) and extricate them from the crowd for the safety of all involved. I find TCC principle to be quite effective in subduing without harming, like if my drunken uncle was getting out of hand at the party and I needed to get him home with all his teeth intact.

[les paul]

I was all prepared to stuff some more flower power crap down someone's throat.

Then I looked down and saw my copy of the De-Dao Ching open to Chapter 24

One who boast is not established
One who shows himself off does not become prominent;
One who puts himself on display does not brightly shine;
One who brags about himself gets no credit
One who praises himself does not endure.

In the Way, such things are called:
"Surplus Food ( i.e. a waste) and redundent action"
And with things---there are those who hate them therfore, the one with the Way in them does not dwell.

I think the first verse I'm dangerously close to, the second verse is how I feel about what I've been talking about.

I'm done, no more will be said on this subject by me

[No_Know]

Killagorrila and psychic RAF on calling it a block...

I think your arm didn't stop. It went out and brushed the attack. You probablly bent your elbow or twisted your body--stepped in leaving your intercepting hand there while attacking with the other side.

The lables won't matter the moves will. Let's talk enough to understand what happened or what's being said. But let us not quibble that you No_Know what is the Proper name.

The balance and interplay of rigid and yielding soft and hard. And the such has greatness to effectiveness.

I was possiblly doing T'ai Chi Ch'uan since before I ever heard of it even. If I at all learned it really well, I hope I cannot recall any of it with concious thought. This I comprehend to be the purpose.

I have not been in what seems to be a "real "fight. I might think that this non-fighting might be a result of whatever I got out of Kung-Fu. I got it good enough that I get out of situations unharmed physically. Every day is a possibility of physical confrontation. If you don't ever get into an appearant fight that day perhaps you can thank your skill at Kung-Fu (T'ai Chi Ch'uan branch) for being successful at fighting and you make it to another day.

[Vapour]

This martial arts versus health/meditation is something which pop up occasionally in taijichuan. My view is as follow.

I often use swimming as a good analogy to taijichuan. Good swimmer swim gracefully without seeming to do much but they generate such power and speed. That is to do with correct posture, breathing and cordination, which is very much like taijichuan.

There is no doubt that swimming is great exercise to improve your health. But anyone who do swimming know that the purpose of swimming is to swim fast and if you are very good, get into competition. This does not mean that swimming community should exclude people who practice swimming just for health. But there is a huge problem if swimming instructor cannot swim in decent speed or not be able to swim even 50 meter.

Similary, taijiquan is great exercise to improve your health. But anyone who practice taijiquan should know that purpose of taijiquan is to provide efficient combat arts. This doesn't mean that one have to perticipate in fight. It's simply means that one recognize what the art is about. Any instructor of taijichuan should be a good fighter, this doesn't mean he get into fight all the time or any at all. But there is a huge problem if he can't fight because this imply that there is dificiency in his arts.

If someone say "I'm doing taijichuan for health but I don't want to learn how to fight", this is akin to saying that "I want to learn how to swim for health but I don't care if I can't swim even 50 meter." This is, in my view, why quite few masters comment that those who come to learn taijichuan for health is the one who gain least health benefit from the art.

I think it is very o.k. people practice taijichuan for health as long as they know what the art is.

[Laughing Cow]

Vapour.

TJQ gives the best health benefits if practiced as a martial art.

The same way your H2H skills are incomplete unless you do the weapons too.

Too many people look at TJQ and see it as effortless and easy.
But they would literally die of they had to do the form 10times a day correctly, or would leave if asked to stand for 10 minutes in "Hug the Tree".

It is the correct training of the FULL curriculum that generates the Health benefits.

Training TJQ lite wil result in Health lite.

Just my opinion naturally.

[Knifefighter]

It's not so much a question of "is Tai Chi effective", but more so of how is whatever you are learning taught and practiced.

Whatever the martial art, if most of it is done with forms, without partners, without resistance, in slow motion, and/or without sparring, it will be pretty ineffective.

People who spend most of their time doing slow motion forms in the air are deluding themselves if they think they are developing any fighting effectiveness. Teachers teaching this as figthing skill are either themselves deluded or are liars.

For a martial art to be effective, the majority of the training must be done in "real-time" speed, performed with a training partner who gives resistance and kinesetic feedback, and must include sparring. This is the key to the effectiveness of many grappling-based arts.

[No_Know]

To be fair and anybody Do your, as-you-are, fast and tough. To be excellent do it like you might not comprehend.

[HuangKaiVun]

Taiji is a great grappling art as well as a striking art.

There are some really sweet chokes and ground maneuvers in that form.