Why are forms not 'Alive'?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Fish on! many won't like this, but my target is the few that do.

by Matt Thornton

Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website

Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel 'form', kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.

Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.

Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.

One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of 'form' training.

What about solo training?

That's a good question and one I get asked allot. If you are blessed to have enough extra time after working your stand up, clinch and ground games against resisting opponents, then you should be concentrating on conditioning. Endurance training, resistance exercises, and stretching would all rank high on the list. Even reading a book would be a much better use of your time the memorizing and repeating a dead pattern. If you are grossly overweight then you should be working that endurance training daily. If you lack a good muscular physique, then you should be training that correctly in order to avoid energy. There is always plenty for us to be working on!

Throw all the patterns and forms away. Stay fluid, and stay 'ALIVE'.


Article courtesy of Matt Thornton

[David Jamieson]

I disagree. Simply because :

a: while form does help muscle memory, it is only in context to the form.

b: form contains the systems techniques, which when extrpolated from the form and used in a testing context (sparring/fighting), show the basis for a particular fighting style.

c: form practiced over and over again does lead to fluidity and power issuing at the appropriate points in the techniques.

d: form teaches the motion of combat without risking combat.

e: a form workout is as valuable to an athletic person as any aerobic exercise. especially when done continuously when the pattern is well known.

f: forms are 1 (one) part of Chinese Martial arts training (or any martial arts training really)

g: form teaches correct alignment and body mechanics.

I have disagreed with this guy on several of his articles and i agree with him on some. What I know to be true is so often contradicted by him without any real basis other than his whole my shortcuts are the best!

Matt needs to realize a few things before he starts trying to tear down the tried and true methods of defence, medicine and health as are found in asian martial arts.

His biggest complaint should be regarding those who do not propogate the information correctly as opposed to making his signature blanket statements.

:)

cheers

[KC Elbows]

It's a catalogue of movements, not a guarantee that you'll understand those movements.

However, on behalf of all forms practitioners the world over, I have sent some beef eating kansas red necks to destroy you. Infidel.

[ShaolinTiger00]

KC, luckily for me, I know the habits of rednecks and have laid out a trap.

I've dug a tigerpit and placed a 6 pack of Pabst Blue-Ribbon on the top as bait.

You'll have to do better.

[red5angel]

hmmmm, I can agree with some of it however I don't buy that it doesn't help build muscle memory. Any action performed over and over again will become second nature, whether there is resistance or not. That said you still have to work on timing and such.

[KC Elbows]

Very clever. However, you failed to account for their wives and daughters. I have told them that your single, and of good breeding stock. You will never know peace again.

BTW, I will say that I dislike systems that create endless forms for no apparent reason. If you can't fit it in one form, to me, it's not really one style, it's multiple styles being taught under on flag. I think that's sometimes used as a method of control: practitioner X only learned up to form Y from me, so he is unqualified to teach. Even though he was one of my best fighters. And he knew his stuff really well. But he's unqualified. Did I mention I've got copyrights on supposedly traditional forms?:rolleyes:

[ShaolinTiger00]

a) true. much like one memorizes a dance routine.
b) a pre arranged fighting style is again, just a stylized dance.
c) no they don't. he just told you why.
d) :D only you would make "lack of combat" a plus for a martial art.
e) agreed. its an anaerobic dance. I recommend contemporary wushu for a real workout in flexibility and workout.
f) the largest part in which valuable time is spent.
g) so will good coaching and "form" of movement. forms don't have the market cornered on this.

Good luck with your dancing
;)


*note* I do not totally agree with the article either.

[dnc101]

I agree with Kung Lek.

Additionally, forms teach transitions and applications. Ours teach us to flow from one technique to another and to rearrange moves within techniques.

Forms were not meant to be memorized and performed. They should be broken down, tore apart, examined and changed. Many moves in forms have multiple uses with only slight modifications. This is true in most styles I've seen. I study American Kenpo and Tai Chi Chuan and it is certainly the case there. But I've seen it in TKD, PMAs, and Aiki(Chin Na).

I'd say if your forms are dead it is because you never gave them life.

[Braden]

Not only does the author not have any experience with the topic, but he is fundamentally hypocritical: even within this very article he recommends non-alive training methods, while attack formwork on the sole basis of being non-alive.

What else is there to say?

[ShaolinTiger00]

forms teach transitions and applications.

I believe forms are excellent sources of showing transitions, but horrible at showing applications.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The following interview with Matt Thornton was conducted September 8th 1999 by Derrick Cox for use in an upcoming video series:

Matt. . .you talk alot about "Aliveness" this seems to be your main theme or point whenever you are teaching. It was also the main theme of your last video series. Why do you place so much emphasis on this point as opposed to others?

Aliveness is everything. If an athlete grasps the principle and truly understands what I mean by it. . then they can never be bull****ted again (laughs) thats why I emphasize it so much. I am also constantly being asked....whats better.... this or that. . this style or that style....why don't you do this drill anymore...why do you say this doesn't work.... The answer to all those questions is ALIVENESS.....you see...so once they grasp what that means then about one thousand and one of their questions are answered for them. It's everything.

Do you think most people get it.... do they understand aliveness?
Depends....most combat athletes get it right away... in fact to them it would be common sense....by combat athletes I mean Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, wrestlers, boxers, etc...people who train for real, against real resistance and real opponents. Most "martial artists" don't have a clue what it means. They think they know....they think "well what we do is for the street, not sport! Of course we are training with aliveness". But then you see what they are doing and its all dead patterns, flash, one and two step sparring, reference points, and nonsense. In short, its all dead.

What about other JKD people.... don't they understand the principle, seems like they above all others would "get it"?
JKD people are some of the worst! (laughs) I have seen some articles and things on the internet where they discuss the word aliveness and its laughable....big words, pseudo philosophy, didactic speech.....but you can tell right away that the simple truth of it is lost on them. Look.....all you have to do to see if someone understands aliveness is watch them train. 99% of the JKD people I run into....be they "concepts" or "original" guys, are still doing one dead pattern after another. No footwork, no timing, and always, always, always, patterns. NO....I know of only a few JKD people who really grasp what aliveness is all about.

I am still confused.... give me an example of where a JKD person might think what they are doing is alive but its not.
Alright.....lets take Jun Fan guys. Most still practice endless hours of reference point trapping. They dissect their "entries" against a static man who is standing with his lead arm in one or another "fixed" position. Thats about as dead as it gets. So many JKD people dog traditional martial artists like Karate and Kung Fu guys... but then you watch their class and they are teaching people out of a high outside reference point! Its nonsense.

Well I understand what you are saying about the reference points.... but what about someone who says that those are just training methods..... that they are meant to teach options and reflexes to beginners.... which will eventually lead them into a more alive energy drill such as chi sao?
Consider their assumptions. First off is the assumption that you need to begin a brand new student out with a dead pattern. Thats a false assumption. Its not necessary! You can train people with aliveness on day one....their is no need to begin with planted feet....fixed positions, and contrived resistance. Second is the assumption that you COULD develop reflexes using a dead pattern.....you cannot.....train with a dead pattern and get a dead response.... their are no reflexes to be had there....no resistance.....nothing. Its a waste of time. Third.....you said leading into an energy drill such as chi-sao.....which essentially means going from one dead pattern to another. Most people who practice chi-sao do it with planted feet.... no footwork....or contrived silly footwork....footwork thats rehearsed....its a pattern! Nobody fights like that! No fight on planet earth will ever resemble a chi sao match......in a real fight guys grab you.....they grab for your head.... they punch you....and not with perfect "centerline" punches either, but with giant Tank Abbot "I am gonna knock your friggin head off" punches.....they tackle....and hug...
and knee....thats a fight....a pigeon toed dead pattern wont help you much there.

Well personally I know some JKD concepts people who use these drills only as shells.... to add things like you mentioned.... knees, elbows....as their student progresses. Don't you think that would be a valid training method?
Perhaps....but certainly not the most efficient, realistic, or helpful training method. Why do you need the pattern? I don't understand the reason for it. Why not just fight for control of the body while putting in punches, knees, elbows....like a Greco Roman wrestlers pummeling drill.....or Muay Thai's neck control drill...you dont say "alright. . .we are going to fight for control of the neck.... on every 3 and one half rotations through this cycle I am going to insert an elbow....ok, GO." That would be silly....there is no TIMING there. You see fights.... real fights...are all about conditioning, and timing. No.....instead you simply wrestle for control of that neck.....and as you go you randomly put in your strike.....no pattern....you FIND the place to put it in out of that mess that is real resistance. Thats Alive. I simply do not see the need for a pattern. Even a raw beginner....on day one.....he can drill without the pattern and begin to develop real attributes, right away, without getting hurt. If an Instructor says he needs those patterns for beginners so they don't hurt each other, then he is just ignorant about coaching athletes. And you know what.... its probably not his fault....he was trained that way and he is just repeating. Thats what most humans do. You don't need patterns.... and the JKD/Kali & Original JKD world are full of them.

Why? What you are saying seems like common sense.... so why is it so prevalent, why would they do it that way for generations.... if, as you say its "nonsense"?
I don't know? Who knows. Why did it take a well publicized no hold barred fight, an open challenge, and countless.... countless challenge matches by a family from Brazil to teach people the obvious.... that fights often hit the ground, and you better know your **** down there when it does? Think about it.... I have to give them all the credit in the world.... before the Gracies came to our Country everybody just said.... "ah, you don't want to be on the ground....you just hit him when he comes in, you just boink him in the eyes, or kick his balls.... or bite him.... they cant take me down". Why did it take the advent of full contact kickboxing in the late 60's and early 70's to show people that the best place to put their hands was near their face and not on their hip? People become enamored with the mystery that surrounds the Asian martial arts.... people are often gullible.... they so badly want to believe that their is some 75 year old 110lb Chinese master who can throw people without touching them.... or administer a death touch.... whatever... .it feeds the fantasies they have about beating up 5 football players at once in a parking lot in front of their girlfriend. Its silly. Its a fantasy... but they seem to need it.... as far as JKD goes. I think long ago a decision was made somewhere that looking "cool" being able to do 75 knife disarms.... or some flashy compound trapping with crisp, snappy sounds passed for having "good form". And the pursuit of that "good form" and knowledge of endless variations from multiple dead patterns.... took precedence over the pursuit of what it is truly all about.... increasing PERFORMANCE. But.... I am just guessing.... Who cares anyway.... its what YOU can do... and how YOU train that counts.....let the rest of the world do whatever they want.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
forms teach transitions and applications.

I believe forms are excellent sources of showing transitions, but horrible at showing applications.

ST00,

My point is that they don't just show you anything. You have to dig out the principles and applications. Don't just memorize it, play with it. Tweak it. Break it down and work the moves with a partner. Even the transitions are wasted if you only learn the one application in the form.

[Losttrak]

Bah to each their own. I think forms are VERY necessary. I dont need to explain why cuz I know their benefit and those who arent on the same page wouldn't relate or understand anyways. Most who post already have their mind made up and arent seeking to learn anything. They just like to throw general statements out because.... sometimes this forum is boring without a good argument or debate.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Does anyone else find that last post incredibly ironic?

:p

I dont need to explain why cuz I know their benefit and those who arent on the same page wouldn't relate or understand anyways. Most who post already have their mind made up and arent seeking to learn anything.

and this forum is boring without a good debate, what better debate than trying to convince kungfu'ers to see the light..

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
The following interview with Matt Thornton was conducted September 8th 1999 by Derrick Cox for use in an upcoming video series:

'It's the artist, not the art.'

I took the liberty of paraphrasing that entire interveiw. That is pretty much what I got out of it.

Some artists are willing to dig out the principles and applications that make an art alive, some are not. Some artists are willing to work and develope their art, some go through the motions. Some are willing to pad up and test their understanding and skills with contact, others prefer the safety of tag games. But nothing in there provides evidence that forms are useless.

Dead forms are useless. Therefore, you should bring your forms to life.

[guohuen]

If your forms are horrible for teaching application, someone is teaching you cr@p.

[ShaolinTiger00]

It's the artist, not the art.

If the art holds back the artist then he won't grow to his potential.

[dnc101]

Find an instructor that will help you bring the art to life- different school. You don't have to throw the baby (art) out with the bathwater.

Edit: I still think it is more likely the fault of the practitioner than the art or the instructor. But I acknowlege that a dead instructor cannot teach a living art. I don't agree that all arts not geared for the ring are dead, and certainly they aren't dead just because they teach forms.

[Braden]

"aliveness" = "chi" for MMAers.

No one trains all with aliveness. Not boxers, not muay thai-ists, not wrestlers. It's a neat idea to try to vindicate what you do to others though.

[Black Jack]

I guess I am going to be the bad guy.

I agree with some of the philosophy behind Matt Thornton's viewpoints, I also disagree with other aspects of it, for one it seems very sport focused to me in nature, though there is nothing wrong with that as those methods have been proven to carry great merit.

To me the philosophy of training should mean more than just technique. It should be about the end results.

For adrenaline stress training RMCAT has a website and from what I hear a highly rated program. The concept is easy enough to steal for any group of joe's.

[KC Elbows]

Somewhat onto a tangent here, but one thing that makes me kind of nervous for the future of kung fu is that so many of its practitioners cannot cope with the idea that some things are not as effective as others.

i.e. every martial theory is the best martial theory, any failure is on the part of practitioners.

I don't think this is a good trend. I think the TMA vs. MMA argument ends here often, and so that's where the thinking for many traditionalists ends.

What's ironic is that these same people often think their art is the best.:D

I just don't see this to be so. Some things are ineffective. I'm not gonna make a list on the forums, but the fact is, some techniques and approaches are less effective at fighting than others.

It reminds me of art. There are artists who try to make all sorts of chaotic looking stuff, but are incapable of drawing reality. Then there's people like picasso, who start by learning how to draw reality, THEN turn it on its ear. The same with good kung fu fighters. They understand fighting, then the approach of their style can be placed in a context.

My goal is to make my art everything it can be. I refuse to blindly assume that the ones who had it before me were flawless people, and that never, ever, could a flaw have been introduced. I've seen plenty of practitioners perform flawed techniques. I have no reason to believe this is a new phenomenon.

I mentioned this somewhere else, but just about every one of the old kung fu flicks has some skinny dude who is telling people he's the greatest teacher, has some super duper method, but his character is actually just a peddler or something like that. Given that chinese floklore has such characters, isn't it safe to assume that some fake kung fu got mixed in the overall process that brought kung fu to us today? Or, at least, to safeguard against such a thing by CRITICALLY examining your techniques once you've come to understand them?

To illustrate, is there anyone on here that is unaware of chinese mores against rolling around on the ground? Anyone? Well, do you also believe that you can prevent ending up fighting on the ground WITHOUT FAIL, 100% OF THE TIME? If not, then don't you think the old masters might not have addressed the issue sufficiently in many styles?

And losttrack, before you decide whose mind is made up, look at your own view. My view on this has changed drastically in the last two years. That is not a strong sign of rigid thinking. Has yours ever changed at all?

The fact is, forms are cool, I like them to an extent, but I think people need to be a little less touchy about their sacred cows.

[MightyB]

They also give you something to do when you're too old to fight. :D

Actually, forms are a unique challenge and are part of CMA. If you don't do forms, you're not doing CMA.

They are not a substitute for fighting or sparring and that's where I think all of the misinterpretations come from. Too many people think that doing forms is going to make them a superior fighter. They won't. But they do have a certain elegance and grace that will help you in a fight if you develop it through practicing the forms. Forms are about patience, personal reflection, and perfection of movement. In a way, I guess that the best description is that they are a moving meditation. I don't agree with the thought that doing forms will hurt your fighting ability. That's just dumb thinking. It would be like saying practicing ballet is disruptive to bowling efficiency.

In summary:
Forms are part of CMA. Practicing them helps develop positive attributes that you can carry over into fighting. They are not a substitute for fighting.

[Losttrak]

If truth is ironic then it cannot be helped. Notice I didn't mention anyone in particular when I said that people's minds may be closed yet people chimed in defensively... hmmm. I'll let that speak for itself. As far as my own openmindedness, only I can look into myself and see how I have changed. I believe that goes for anyone else reading this post as well... and if my comments act as a catalyst then... woohoo? I just have to wonder what motivates a post like this... Granted there may be some useful into gleaned from this discussion but it seems this is another debate that involves soo many variables that anything states is mere speculation/opinion. So if this was posted in the spirit of "how have forms influenced your training?" then good attitude. If it was posted as a detraction, then... pffft.

[KC Elbows]

MightyB

"If you don't do forms, you're not doing CMA."

Not true. There are styles that do not have forms, and I've heard from a number of people that many old tai chi teachers taught the movements separately, and only bothered with the form with those who wanted the catalogue of moves for teaching people.

However, I agree with the rest.

[rogue]

I'll state up front that these days alot of my training is kata and heavy bag. It's not by choice.

I think forms as a catalogue of a styles techniques is outdated. It's the 21st century for Pete's sake and we have technology that let's us see a technique performed in 360 degree. We have the printing press and Barnes and Noble, not to mention the internet for storing this information. I can think of many uses for kata but that isn't one of them anymore.

Also pulling moves out of kata takes more work than watching a video by a Gracie (pick one), Jim West or Vlad Vasiliev and the return is debatable.

Other than that Thorton makes some good points, though I like Scott Sonnons delivery better.

BTW, Does Thorton ever give a definition of "Aliveness"?

[David Jamieson]

st00-

on point c).
there is only proof that this is what occurs with practice, particulalry of motion. To assume or surmise otherwise is simply incorrect. Provide an argument where improvement does not come with repitition.

on point d).
well why don't you just go and run out and beat the hell out of a teenager? Shouldn't he learn by taking a beating? Like everyone should learn, just beat the hell out of them and see if they figured out how you did that. Dude, practicing combat, without actually being in combat so you are prepared for combat is exactly what martial arts are all about. yeesh!


on point e).
really? you would recommend wushu? so you practice wushu and you know how good or not good it is enough to state that you recommend it to those seeking aerobic exercise? I'm being sarcastic here btw.

on point f).
I dunno where you went to cma school, but that is not true of the school i attended. nor of the kungfu i practice now.

on point g). Is that how you see it? a cornered market? Whatever.
all that is old becomes new again. The human body has been virtually the same as it has been since the codification of combat tactics. training equipment isn't as crude as it once was, but to sell the older generation short on h2h combat skills is myopic. You've never had to fight with only steel and your wits. IN fact most military guys likely haven't seen the enemy.

So why do any of it? Why bother with ufc, sparring, san shou, any of it? You think there is one better than another because it is different?

If it ain't broke don't fix it. There are no shortcuts. And about a million more cliches worked into the english language because they are truisms.

The truth is that people who train hard on a disciplined path will succeed in that path.

cheers

[KC Elbows]

Losttrack, stop being a nincompoop. You got all huffy because someone dared question forms, then didn't substantiate a thing you said, then made accusations about other people being stubborn. You added nothing to the discussion except a bout of PMS, and utterly failed to make a single positive point about forms, which other members have done very well. Basically, you got upset because you felt your sacred cow was under attack. pfft.:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Forms are by no means necessary but I do think they can help. I look at them as akin to shadow boxing really. They don't have to be done in slow motion obviously. It just seems that the guy is too much on one side without really understanding the issue. If all you do is forms, then of course you will be missing quite a bit and probably won't be able to apply technique very well, but I definitely don't think it hurts to use them, especially for individual practice when you do not have a partner. They can definitely be a useful tool.

Some things I learned and benefitted from doing forms - Body unity, I began to learn how to unite my body behind every action. This in turn helped my co-ordination, etc.
Forward intent, doing some of my old forms slowly helped me to deveolpe solid, sturdy forward intent.

[KC Elbows]

Rogue,
That forms aren't just about cataloguing techniques now does not change the fact that that was the role they served primarily. Now that they don't do that, what martial role do they serve, since pracititoners don't use the whole catalogue in fighting, but more their core moves? Thus, all the important transitions and such are better served by practicing short combos(which I'm differentiating from forms for this discussion, as we're really talking about long forms here), and not by doing a bunch of moves that you aren't going to use.

BTW, your average martial artist does not have the ability to capture forms in 3D. You merely have the advantage of practicing a very common form. Some of us only have books with line drawings and mandarin notes to work off of, if even that. My style would be dead without the form.

[Losttrak]

KC Elbows: Lol I can see your are trying to draw me into some silly verbal bout. lol I won't accomodate you. My post involved reason. You post is 90% invective. So regardless of what you may say, you still havent disputed anything my post involved.

[KC Elbows]

Good post, red5. However, couldn't you learn body unity by doing the moves separately? Or doing them in sparring?

In my opinion, forms are cool, they are good solo practice in, as red5 stated, body unity, but they can also be a trap, especially when you are doing a lot of different forms. Now, if you just like doing different forms, that's cool, but I'm sorry, no one is doing 50 forms and fighting 50 different ways, odds are they've got one core style, one or two others they're competent in, and the rest is for the fun of it/meditation of it/exercise of it, so somewhere along the line, either you are drawing the line and saying 'this is my fighting form(s)', or you have to admit that you're not necessarily doing it for martial reasons at all, which is okay too.

And those who use forms as a way to keep good people from teaching because they don't have the ultimate brand X form are dishonest, and opportunistic, and, unfortunately, far too common in the US.

So, few forms good(IMO), many forms bad for fighting(IMO) but okay for fun, exercise, or meditation(IMO).

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Losttrak
KC Elbows: Lol I can see your are trying to draw me into some silly verbal bout. lol I won't accomodate you. My post involved reason. You post is 90% invective. So regardless of what you may say, you still havent disputed anything my post involved.


Sorry, I didn't realize I was dealing with the voice of reason here. Beg your pardon sir. Care to share that reason with the rest of us, or would that be too reasonable?

[Losttrak]

*silence as KC Elbows continues to prove Losttrak's point*

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Losttrak
*silence as KC Elbows continues to prove Losttrak's point*

well, i suppose that beats phoning up your girlfriend from beijing with all the martial artists in her family and asking her to back you up on your point. eh, kip up?


stuart b.

[red5angel]

I don't think so. maybe if you were gifted you could anyway but look at it this way. I did WC for 3 years and improved at a normal rate. I picked up Chen Taichi on a recommendation, and I made huge leaps in skill and power delivery over about 6 months to a year. Over that same time period I became more co-ordinated and so had to attribute my increasing skill and power to bette rbody unity.

I guess what I should say KC is that you probably can get body unity from doing single motions over and over again, but I think what forms do is also concentrate on this, through not only the moves but the smooth transitions.

I just hope I am clear in saying that although I think they can be useful, they aren't necessary really, and you can get fighting skill without them.

[KC Elbows]

Losttrak,
Have a nice day, good practice to you, etc.

[Losttrak]

apoweyn:

lol I can admit when I am wrong. =) When it comes to determining if it had some origin from an actual Chinese term there could be no more credible source (that I had access to...).

KC Elbows: Same to you.

[KC Elbows]

Red5,
I think in tai chi, push hands was when the individual moves were linked, but it is true that, by yourself, working the form can be good that way. I've had the same experience from the chi kung in my system that you did with the chen form. Essentially, our whole form is in the chi kung exercises, though the form does take the chi kung some unexpected directions.

Ap,
You are a tribute to the symbiote-collective-gestalt.

[apoweyn]

except the dictionary. :)

look, i haven't got anything against you personally. but you have this knack for righteous indignation. this conversation has been relatively civil. no reason why it can't stay that way.

[Losttrak]

Kip Up is in the dictionary?!?!? *looks at Webster Dictionary site* Doh.. dont see it. =)

[apoweyn]

Ap,
You are a tribute to the symbiote-collective-gestalt.

well, i do what i can. and god knows dezhen has been carrying his weight. but that other guy...

:)

[red5angel]

KC, yep. I think the concept of qi and exercises that develop it are really developing that, an unusual amount of body control. I personally don't think there is a mystical energy involved, just that by a concentrated effort to control every muscle in your body and focus every fiber into one action, you become capable of doing things that seem pretty incredible.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Losttrak
Kip Up is in the dictionary?!?!? *looks at Webster Dictionary site* Doh.. dont see it. =)

'kip down' is in the dictionary. that, at least, established the fact that it was a term derived from english not chinese. it would've been the right track.

but that's not really the point. the point is that there's no real need to get bent outta shape. (that goes for me too.)


stuart b.

[Losttrak]

"One entry found for kip.


Main Entry: 3kip
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): kipped; kip·ping
Date: circa 1889
British : SLEEP -- sometimes used with down <kip down on a spare bed -- Alice Glenday> "


I knew the British were behind this conspiracy...
*dropkicks the nearest crumpet*
JK all you Anglophiles

[apoweyn]

oh great. first, thomas makes off with all our muffins. now this.

[KC Elbows]

Ap, We've also got your toffee. Submit to our demands. We have a simple list of demands:

-armour is heretofore to be spelled armor


That's it.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Ap, We've also got your toffee. Submit to our demands. We have a simple list of demands:

-armour is heretofore to be spelled armor


That's it.

LOL

[Braden]

Ap has meters of grey-coloured armour in his skilful sulphour centre, but it sometimes gets stuck on his moustache when he ploughs.

[MightyB]

Forms = Superb balance and coordination in movement.

[apoweyn]

that's true. but it's all made of aluminium. so it works out.

[KC Elbows]

That's it, the toffee and muffins get it if you don't start taking this situation seriously. Don't believe me?

[EATS TOFFEE]

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

Did someone say something about forms?

[diego]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[i]

Why did it take the advent of full contact kickboxing in the late 60's and early 70's to show people that the best place to put their hands was near their face and not on their hip? People become enamored with the mystery that surrounds the Asian martial arts..

this is the most ***giest statement...wich i think well points out what his marketing goals are...to be that next newage scientific tony power-bruce lee mother****er :D

that was karate who places thier fists strictly at hips...talking about lameass kickboxing in the 70s...i know for a fact hop gar from two hundered years ago would place thier fist above thier head, or at thier face or at thier ribs or at thier groin or really depending on wherever you want to trick someone. blah dont care about what hes saying i just felt like pointing out his pomposity or however thats spelled if its even a word.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
That's it, the toffee and muffins get it if you don't start taking this situation seriously. Don't believe me?

[EATS TOFFEE]

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

Did someone say something about forms?

LOL

again.


but now i know you're bluffing. if you'd really eaten an english toffee, you wouldn't have been laughing. at best, it would've been a muffled MMWUFFMMWUFF...

hmm... perhaps that's why british people's teeth are so buggered up.


stuart b.

[Oso]

I have really enjoyed most of your posts where you are discussing
throwing and fighting. You definitely know what you are talking
about.

But, I have to ask what is behind the continuous assault on
cma? forms in particular.

Why can't cma people keep doing what it is they want to do
without having to defend their methods. Don't get me wrong,
having to defend your process makes you critique it and that
usually makes something better. But, this is a 'kung fu' board
and 'kung fu' systems are mostly, but not always, concerned
with forms and the principles built into them. Everytime I turn
around there is some bjj/mma guy attacking cma and it's getting
a little old. I know is a free country (and board) but how many
times do we have to see it. Why do you hang out reading and
posting here if there is nothing here for you to learn.

OK. BJJ/MMA folks think CMA people are stupid for waisting
there time working from forms. Point Taken. I'll stay over here
and play my forms till I can't stand up and you stay over there
and roll till you puke and won't we both be happy

What I'm curious about is what prompted your deep seated
derision of forms?

I know, I know you're tired of all the cma types that claim that
all they need is their forms and that their art is too deadly to
take into the ring. Granted you can run into those people but
I don't think I've read anyone claiming that at all. Not lately
anyway. I think most of the regular posters here are giving
you guys your just due. I know I have in my posts.

so, what's up? I'm honestly curious.

Also, have you ever learned a form?
How long did you work it?
Was it from someone who know what they
were doing? or a hack?

[MightyB]

All I need is my forms and my art is waaaayyyyy too deadly for the ring! :p

[rogue]

KC
"Some of us only have books with line drawings and mandarin notes to work off of, if even that. My style would be dead without the form."

So now is the time to break those suckers down and get them on tape and disk. Then get into a photo studio and take some pictures.

I've never seen a karate fighter keep their hands at their hips when sparring. I have seen them keep their hands parralel to the floor chest height, I've seen one hand high one solar plexus height, I've seen many hand positions but never the dreaded hand on hip guard.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by MightyB
They also give you something to do when you're too old to fight. :D

Dang it, MB, you've been watchin' me work out! :)

I do disagree with a couple of assumptions made by some posters here:

a) that forms are just a catalog of moves. They are much more, which has been pointed out in several posts here. If that was all they were then yes, they'd be of limmited use. I have a Martial Arts Mart catalog. That doesn't mean I have all the gooddies I want (someone tell Gene to settle down- I don't have all the money I want either).

b) that those of us who work with forms don't do contact fighting. Some don't, I'm sure, just like some don't do forms. Some don't do either. I personally think that to short either part of your training is to dilute the art and loose several of the benifits of studying martial arts (those have already been listed here also).

As for the high stress/reality training, I'd love to attend a RMCAT course. I think they'd be extremely bennificial and informative. But for now I'll have to settle for us ametures trying to stress each other while sparing or working out. I also agree that you loose a lot of your finer motor skills in a high stress situation. But the fewer skills you've learned, the greater the impact of loss of even a low degree of skill level.

[red5angel]

Rogue, I was at Kali class the other night, and the instructor was talking about always keeping your guard up. He said he was talking to someone while back, and the guy he was talking to got into position throwing a cross. Then he took each defensive aspect of the shot away and it looked just like that karate hip/punch deal!

[rogue]

Whoops, just thought about it and I have seen the hand on the hip (kind of). But the front hand was up about chin level, the body was in a back stance and the back hand was down around hip level but in front. And I got hit in the gut by that hand, came in under the radar.

[SifuAbel]

To add to what has been said, This article is loaded with self serving contradictions.

Such as the repetition of movements. When you only have the choice of four punches total, then repetition is unavaoidable. You will eventually throw the same combo again sometime. In most kung fu forms, the moves consist of many different types of attacks that are not limited to just box striking. You will not repeat the same move again until you do the form over.

The use of the word "dead" is self serving as well. It is only dead if the person doing the form does not have an idea of what the potential applications are and does not have force behind it due to a lack of intent. If you find something in forms that is not applicable, more times than not, its the fault of the student to understand. Don't blame the form for your lack of understanding of it. I tell my student that my fighting is a brew of the totality of the things that I have experienced. You don't use your form verbatim. Meaning, that it is a waste to try and make the situation your in to fit the form. Its the other way around, flowing with the situation is key. BUT, you have to have the discipline of movement behind you as a foundation. I wonder how many of you can actually name those moves you feel can't be used. And, honestly ask yourself if its just because you don't understand them or can't see the potential in them.

This article is obviously made by someone that has never actually practiced form work in the CMA sense.
Timing , Impact , and reflex are very present in forms work. He's never seen a two person weapon set apparently. You don't have good timing there, you get cut.

The aliveness isn't something that is devoid of form. The aliveness lives within the form. "Form" is the shape of something. Not even boxing is without form. Bruce Lee talked about this aliveness. But he had definate form. The rudiments of his moves came from somewhere. Unfortunatly, people took his idea in an exclusionist way and decided that cutting down whatever they did was enough. Where BL was the ultimate inclusionist. He wanted his students to learn from, but not be trapped by, the things they had already learned. Technically, he wanted his student go beyond his rudiments and go on to INCLUDE and grow in experience and potential movement.

Physical conditioning, at least in the KF forms I do, is also very present in an extreme way. In our school all manner of conditioning was done along with form work. Hard sparring was also an important ingredient in our "mix". So I agree that forms alone are not the answer but they are part of the formula.

Bottom line this is an attempt to make oneself seem bigger by cutting others heads off.

RMCAT is cool too. But again, if you don't have a good foundationm behind you. You'll be spending your time in the equivalent of a white belt class learning how to FORM a fist.

[cogg]

I dont have bad teeth!

[red5angel]

"I dont have bad teeth!"

Right! Just look at his avatar!!:p

[KC Elbows]

I just figured out what I stepped into on this thread. Didn't realize there was an ongoing fight with shaolin tiger.:D

Forums are so funny.

[red5angel]

"I just figured out what I stepped into on this thread. Didn't realize there was an ongoing fight with shaolin tiger"

He is a hard worker man! If he isn't out training martial arts he is here training in mouth boxing! :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

Aliveness = training against a fully resisting, unscripted opponent.

No one trains all with aliveness. Not boxers, not muay thai-ists, not wrestlers. It's a neat idea to try to vindicate what you do to others though. = The stupidest thing written today.


I have really enjoyed most of your posts where you are discussing
throwing and fighting. You definitely know what you are talking
about.

Thank you very much.


But, I have to ask what is behind the continuous assault on
cma? forms in particular.
cause forms are defunct.

Why can't cma people keep doing what it is they want to do
without having to defend their methods. Don't get me wrong,
having to defend your process makes you critique it and that
usually makes something better.
f you're going to practice something so ridiculous and consider yourself "deadly" then you better be able to justify it!

What I'm curious about is what prompted your deep seated
derision of forms?

Because we find your ignorance to reality, practicality, sensibility, and logic, facinating

You are a bug in a jar and I'm a guy with a stick prodding you to see how you react.

Wait a minute!! This is how you invented the deadly style of Praying Mantis KungFu!!!
consider me a founding father...


Did you, have you ever learned a form?
How long did you work it?
Was it from someone who know what they
were doing? or a hack?

I've learned dozens of forms. (Jowbacca's jaw dropped when I listed the Jow Ga forms that I knew). virtuallly the entire catalog. How long? - 8 years. A hack? LMAO! Hoy Lee (JowGa)and Michael Barry (Shaolin lineage to Ark Yuey Wong) are both USAWKF hall of fame members and highly respected.

[ShaolinTiger00]

When you only have the choice of four punches total

Incorrect and flawed logic.

[KC Elbows]

This is strangely reminiscent of PeeDee.;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

Amazing.

My first words "FISH ON" in bold letters and you still jump right in the boat.

I love you naive, sensitive, dancing *******s! :D

[SifuAbel]

yes both of these guys are too high on themselves.

so what other punches then?

[Oso]

ST00

so, you didn't learn anything in 8 years of form work?

Did that 8 years of Jow ga precede your bjj/judo/san shou work?

[Laughing Cow]

Why aren't forms alive??

You as the practicioner have to bring them to live?

Forms are like a recipe, it is up to the cook to use that recipe to make a good dish.

Naturally recipes can be modified, ingredients changed and adjusted.

Nuff said.

[joedoe]

We have a training tool for our forms. We call it checking. What happens is one person (the checkee) does the form. Another person (the checker) resists their movements in the form. The checker can resist with various different aims in mind - strength/power training, balance training, sensitivity training etc.

Does that qualify the form as alive?

[Oso]

Amazing.

My first words "FISH ON" in bold letters and you still jump right in the boat.

I love you naive, sensitive, dancing *******s!


so, I guess we got played. funny.
love you too.


man, I'd love to see a serious kung fu thread on this here
kung fu forum.

but, again, that's just me

[Laughing Cow]

We do something similar in TJQ for stances, and than of course there is Push-hands which trains exactly those points.;)

[red5angel]

"man, I'd love to see a serious kung fu thread on this here
kung fu forum."

Oso, the problem is they have split up the forums to seperate styles. Most of the martial talk on this general forum is, if not OT, about particular techniques, uses, style differences etc...

[Oso]

r5a, true.

But, I wouldn't mind debating the validity of forms (obviously)
but if it's a sincere debate. IF ST00 was just trolling then
I got caught, my bad not his. Trolling is silly. I don't have that
much extra time to waste here (none actually).


anyway, my mother is waiting for you.:D

[red5angel]

your mother has been waiting for me for a long itme ;)

I don't think ST00 is outright trolling so much as trying to get a discussion going. He is usually pretty reasonable and pretty knowledgeable and while he shows some angst when it comes to TMA or CMA, I think he is just lookig to discuss with some of those TMA/CMA people. It just so happens that it probably gives hima few chuckles as well.

[Oso]

"your mother has been waiting for me for a long itme"


if you only knew.



I don't think he's completely trolling either. ST00 has said
much of the same thing before about forms and 'traditional'
study of ma. I am truly curious about his views. Besides
simple comments of "forms are defunct"

I am of course feeling a little sheepish for not getting the
'fish on' at the beginning of the thread.
:o but that's life

[red5angel]

I'd feel sheepish for being a sucker too. :D

I too am curious as to what ST00 is all about, trying to figure it out from these threads is a pain in the ass.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Amazing. My first words "FISH ON" in bold letters and you still jump right in the boat. I love you naive, sensitive, dancing *******s! :D

and... Does anyone else think that last post was incredably ironic.?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This was a pretty good discussion up to about that point. So, was your comment about fish intended to intimidate us into not posting, or was it a built in disclaimer for when you inevitably loose this debate?:p

[ShaolinTiger00]

or was it a built in disclaimer for when you inevitably loose this debate?


-
It's hard to lose when you have the overwhelming evidence to prove otherwise.


Was I trolling? Yep. While all my opinions are what I firmly believe,I could have kept them to myself, but.. "I don't think ST00 is outright trolling so much as trying to get a discussion going. He is usually pretty reasonable and pretty knowledgeable and while he shows some angst when it comes to TMA or CMA, I think he is just lookig to discuss with some of those TMA/CMA people. It just so happens that it probably gives hima few chuckles as well."

Immense chuckles.

As I said before, If you're going to spend the majority of your time practicing forms and consider yourselves skilled in martial combat, then you should be able to justify it, because there is a mountain of evidence that proves otherwise.

Can anyone provide me with an example of a kungfu man/woman whom has been successfull in competitions, using no training other than forms?

[Losttrak]

I am a die-hard kung fu practicioner and if anyone says they can kick a$$ JUST from doing forms... I will be the first to disagree. Who has said such a thing?

[yenhoi]

tricsksy hobbit...

I dont think aliveness is the most important measurement for all training methods.

Forms fall into the same catagory as weight lifting, stretching, jumping rope, etc.

Another cool thread to link to this one is Ap's thread on designing a training program to get someone sparring. Some people had their trainee sparring by the end of day one (withen 2 hours for me...) while others would wait upto 6 months.

"...you're going to spend the majority of your time practicing forms and consider yourselves skilled in martial combat..."

Holds true for any training method besides fighting. Forms are relatively low on my list of training methods on the economy scale and wouldent make my cut for a competition fighter.

Good fun ST00!

:eek:

[yenhoi]

I must also say I am a big fan of Mr Matt.

[David Jamieson]

It's hard to lose when you have the overwhelming evidence to prove otherwise.

and this overwhelming evidence is?

c'mon, form is a legitimate method of training someone.
They are hardly defunct. I think that if you look to virtually every pro in the fighting sports and you will find exctly the opposite.

form is form, long or short. whether it is a combination drilled again and again or a long series of techniques trained over a longer period of time, everyone uses it as a method to develop as a fighter.

you can't just press weight, spar and skip rope. THere are many factors related to form in all fighting methods.

cheers

[red5angel]

ST00 - I am with kung lek here, where is the overwhelming evidence?

In my own experience, in the street the few fights I have seen that involved a martial artist were all with oddly enough TKD people, who also did plenty of forms work along with sparring and other training techniques.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
It's hard to lose when you have the overwhelming evidence to prove otherwise.

You forgot to put a big grin after that statement- that's the only way we'd take that seriously! :cool:

OK, you started out dumping on forms in general, now you're down to those that spend the majority of their time training forms. That's a step in the right direction.

Everyone who does forms doesn't major in them. With Kenpo, I probably spend less than a quarter of my training time on forms. And that includes the practical and application work I do on them.

Tai Chi Chuan is a different animal. At my level right now I spend most of my time on just trying to learn the 24. By learn it I don't mean just going through the motions. There is an incredible ammount of detail in the moves, and it will take me a long time to get to the point where I can do them reasonably well without thinking too much. It will be much longer yet before I get to the point I can use any TCC in a fight. But that's fine, I enjoy doing it.

I also do a little grappling and weapons on the side. I have no forms work in grappling, and I'm not very good at it. So if any one knows any good forms that would improve my skills ... (?). Weapons- I doubt that even you would question the validity of forms in training traditional martial arts weapons. Firearms training has no forms, and I am very good with a pistol, extremely good with a rifle, deadly with a shotgun. I also work disarms, which have no forms.

So, my training runs the gammut from heavily forms oriented to no forms. My opinion is that forms are not the only method of training. But they have a definate place and purposes. To discard forms training, or to do it wrong, is to cheat yourself out of an important learning experience. And to try to convince those of us who do forms that there is no bennifit is a bigger waste of time than trolling.

I wouldn't say that sport fighting isn't a good testing and training ground for street fighting tactics. But I could argue that if you aren't destroying joints pr gouging eyes you aren't really in a no holds barred street fight situation. Would that change your opinion on the validity of fighting as training for actual self defense? I doubt it. Like the idea that forms have no value, it's pure foolishness.

[MightyB]

Forms are a great training device for that uncoordinated nerd newbie. They help us to uncover and revitalize some deepseated athleticism that's been nearly killed from years of inactivity accompanied by small bouts of masturbation that occur when they have fantacies of being like Jet Li.

We've all had that student and no matter how many times they hit the pads, they still punch like girls. Forms are about the only way to induce some small amount of coordination to their geekified style of living.

[yenhoi]

dnc: what kind of grappling?

Bjj guys have several solo drills (NOT FORMS :D ) that you would benefit from.

Agree with MB: if you give a form to a complete new guy, the weakling couch potato, the 'lil guy's body will change so much he will think he is Bruce Lee in no-time. But that goes for nearly any form of regular exercise.

Also forms are a management tool for large groups of people (such as a platoon+ of soldiers.) Or as a simple test of a students technical progress. In modern american times there are better methods for these things. Also much changes as far as how you measure training methods when it comes to training a competitive fighter, self defense, or just training, not to mention all the happy hippies out there.

:eek:

[red5angel]

"Forms are a great training device for that uncoordinated nerd newbie"


LOL!

[dnc101]

yenhoi, I don't study a particular style. I work out from time to time with grapplers, ex grapplers, and wrestlers (I know, but this is a small town so you take what you can get). The closest class that does grappling is in a neighboring town. It is a TKD class that does their own mix of grappling and small circle Aiki as an adjunct to their training. Their walk in fees are reasonable, so I go there whenever I feel the need to get my butt humbled.

It's funy- this is a BIG wrestling area. But the only martial arts classes are TKD and Arnis. A Shoto Kan (sp?) school just opened up a block over from the TKD class I visit. But they are a sort of closed group. Won't have much to do with anyone who doesn't belong to their school, so I don't know what they do.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Why aren't you wrestling? some of the best cross training skills that you'll see.

[dnc101]

Way too dang old to wrestle.:mad:
But you're right, they'll push you (or me, any way). I'm not sure a sit out would be usefull in a fight, but if you move the grapevine from a leg hold to an arm lock it is a painful experience. As an added bonus, the victim gets to smell your feet.:eek:

[ShaolinTiger00]

too old? You would be suprised. My high school coach still has a "walk-in" policy and many adult men from the area came to wrestle and my college had the same policy and lots of guys came in. provided they were in decent shape and could show that they knew enough not to get hurt.

[Oso]

I must also say I am a big fan of Mr Matt


now, see, I'd like to maybe take that as a compliment....

but it's probably not





keep hammering him guys, maybe ST00 will enlighten us some
more.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
too old? You would be suprised. My high school coach still has a "walk-in" policy ...

It would surprise me. The high school sports here are pretty closed. They'll take volunteer help, if you qualify. I've helped with some of their programs (not wrestling). But working out is another thing.

It is possible to sign up to use their facilities. But the gymn with the matts is almost allways booked. And even when it's not, it's guaranteed you'll get preempted. I'm in the process right now of cleaning out my garage and setting it up to work out in. I'm thinking about finding some old carpet and thick carpet pads and making my own matt. We'll see.

[ShaolinTiger00]

good luck.

[Oso]

If you live in a big wrestling area chances are you can find an
old mat or part of an old mat that some coach would give you or
sell cheaply.

A buddy of mine that I trained with was an asst coach at the
local HS and I would go in occasionally to give their Hvy weight
someone bigger to play with. It was a lot of fun.

[ShaolinTiger00]

resilite.com (http://www.resilite.com/)

great site for getting a reconditioned mat for home use.

[dnc101]

Thanks for the info guys. I bookmarked the Resilite site, but they are still a bit out of my price range. For now I'll have to make do. Any one have a recipe for Dit Da Jow for carpet burns?

[Braden]

ShaolinTiger00

"Aliveness = training against a fully resisting, unscripted opponent.

'No one trains all with aliveness. Not boxers, not muay thai-ists, not wrestlers. It's a neat idea to try to vindicate what you do to others though.' = The stupidest thing written today."

Care to say why? Or are we reduced to just throwing around insults here?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I don't mind at all Braden.

You said that boxers and kickboxer do not train with "aliveness" and that couldn't be further from the truth!

They and grappling such as judo, sambo, bjj are based almost entirely on this training principle.

They work at full speed and power with skilled opponents who are fully resisting and attacking as well.




dnc - DO NOT pour dit da jow onto an open wound! don't use it period, but especially not in that scenario.

[Losttrak]

DNC101: Do you remember those blue mats they always have hanging on the walls in most high school gyms? They are regularly replaced by schools who they sell them off with huge discounts (Third party buys them at $2 each and sells them for profit. One of my friends actually works in the warehouse that takes them when they are no longer needed.) He says that its a first come first serve basis and they really dont care who buys them. If you can somehow get into the loop at a local school you may be able to make out like a bandit and spare yourself paying $25 per cubic meter.

[Braden]

Really, ShaolinTiger?

Cause the wrestlers I know spent alot of time, for instance, doing sprawl drills with a wall-cable. And the boxers I know spent an awful lot of time doing cable duck-and-weave drills and hitting heavy bags. The muay thai-ists I know spend an awful lot of time kicking heavy pads.

Am I unusual? In your area, is none of this true?

[ShaolinTiger00]

You are confusing doing drills for strength & technique with application. While they may work on rills to learn these. From the beginning they are put into application in a contact world.

HUGE difference.

If they did drills and no contact, they'd be no better at fighting than form guys. Its all about the application and constant testing under those circumstances.

[Braden]

Bob-and-weave, sprawl, boxing strikes, and muay thai kicks aren't applications? :confused:

[ShaolinTiger00]

not if they aren't APPLIED in fighting. Without this they are drills.

How hard is this to comprehend?

[Braden]

So how are forms applications?

[ShaolinTiger00]

that is my entire point! They are not applications and since traditional MA do not fight full contact on a daily/weekly basis, their techniques often fail them because they have no "proving ground".

[David Jamieson]

They are not applications and since traditional MA do not fight full contact on a daily/weekly basis, their techniques often fail them because they have no "proving ground".

what are you talking about???

there is plenty of ways and methods developed in traditional martial arts to test the methods as transmitted through form.

it is encouraged that when students of Chinese martial arts learn some techniques that they do there best to test those techniques in open sparring.

The sparring is designed to the level of skill that the opponents have.

More skill in the style, the more freestyle the sparring gets.

The form teaches the techniques, the drills help you understand the essence of technique and free sparring helps you to understand when and where to use a given technique.

do you think because it isn't sportified enough and put on tv for our amusment there is no proving ground for Kungfu?

cheers

[SifuAbel]

"Aliveness = training against a fully resisting, unscripted opponent."

Thanks for the new fancy word. We used to call this sparring. Now we can call it Aliveness training. I wonder what maketing genious thought up this spinneroony.

"and since traditional MA do not fight full contact on a daily/weekly basis, their techniques often fail them because they have no "proving ground"."

This is an over used generalization that is bloated and convenient. Maybe you didn't spar in whatever BS you used to train in. But we did, and so did many of the schools we competered against. Who do you think started this whole san shou thing? Karate guys? nnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"sparring" - traditional martial arts double speak for what they call light contact slapping. Causing a false sense of security and teaching bad qualities of power, timing, motion attributes.

You can keep your foam chops and your glass jaw.

[Braden]

So it sounds to me like boxers, wrestlers, muay thai-ists don't do _all_ alive training. Right? Hey... that's exactly what I said which you replied was stupid.

So what is your problem with forms? It simply _cannot_ be that they're not alive, as we've established here that boxers, etc also do things that aren't alive.

As for _some_ alive training...

I do unscripted attacks with my teacher in every class.

'San shou' is a free-fighting format present in every traditional chinese martial art.

Hey wow... both groups do both alive and not-alive training.

So what, exactly, is the difference?

[David Jamieson]

"sparring" - traditional martial arts double speak for what they call light contact slapping. Causing a false sense of security and teaching bad qualities of power, timing, motion attributes.

uh, this statement can only be a reflection of your own personal experience.

You certainly seem to stick to your views irregardless of the centuries of accumulated and transmitted knowledge of the fighting arts that is still handed down today in "traditional" formats using "traditional" methods, around the world. :rolleyes:

I'm only guessing though :D


cheers

[Ryu]

I like and agree with a lot of Matt's philo regarding training. But not all of it. Drilling attributes and the "techniques" of the game can be found in any sport. Ifwe're talking about sports training then we have to be conclusive to sports training. No baseball team gets its players together and sends them out into games or even mock games with the attitude of "okay, this is a real game, go!"
They isolate different aspects of the game, focus on athletic performance, strength training, cardio, running, etc. If someone wants to work on grounders they will be fed 100 grounders. The drill should still be "alive" in that the person must continually work his way up to catching more difficult grounders.
Football players don't scrimage all the time. If they want to work on passes, they'll throw 100 passes, they'll tackle football dummies 100 times. THEN they apply these things in actual game simulation (sparring). But no football team will EVER win the superbowl if they simply play simulation games all the time. They will develop bad habits, sloppiness, etc. They may win some games with other teams, but they'll never get past the teams who are constantly drilling their attributes, techniques, AND applying these things in open practice.

I think most understand this here though. I am probably preaching to the crowd. The notion that sports people don't do "repetative" drills in incorrect. All do. Baseballers repeat batting 100 balls thrown to them (though its up to them to hit it), footballers repeat throwing passes and catching passes over and over (though its up to them to catch it) Basketballers repeat 3 point shots over and over (though its up to them to make them.)

The point here is that even "repeating drills" can be done "alive" in some sense.

I do not believe that a martial artist has to spar full contact everyday for the rest of his life, and anything else he does is taking away from his fighting ability. Like MightyB said, that's just dumb thinking :rolleyes:

I do think the skills and techniques you work on HAVE to be tested in sparring conditions. Good sparring conditions where everything is legal. But you don't have to do this everyday.

You can work on hitting the heavy bag, flow drills on the grapplingdummy, groundpound drills, focus mitt training, shadowboxing, and isolate slipping jabs, sprawling on takedowns, clinching, etc. WITH a progressively resisting partner.

This is what has to be done. When I first started BJJ, my training partners at the school didn't just refuse to let me apply the moves. They allowed me to apply them with increasing levels of resistence, then try them out in all out sparring at the end.
That's the way we did it for as many years as I was there. That's how we did it in judo for the 2 or 3 years I was at that school.
That's the way it should be done.

You can definitly train solo. You can shadowbox, drill combinations on the bag, work on your jab by throwing 100 full power jabs to a bag or manaquin bag, etc. Eye jabs, pre-emptive hits, the whole deal.

But after a while you NEED to see where you're at. It's time to get training partners together, and go at it full out no consent. Test your stuff always under full resistence.
But it just doesn't have to be tested every waking hour of your existence. :D

Ryu

[ShaolinTiger00]

You certainly seem to stick to your views irregardless of the centuries of accumulated and transmitted knowledge of the fighting arts that is still handed down today in "traditional" formats using "traditional" methods, around the world.


That's the irony. This "forms = a way to fight" mentality isn't centuries old. It's in the last few generations that this crime against CMA occurred.

[SifuAbel]

""sparring" - traditional martial arts double speak for what they call light contact slapping. Causing a false sense of security and teaching bad qualities of power, timing, motion attributes."

"uh, this statement can only be a reflection of your own personal experience." Good one KL,
I agree totally this is a bloated generalization.

You seem to be confusing karate point tournament with kung fu again.

You ask me to show you where you are wrong. I think others already have. The majority on this thread thinks you are mistaken. Maybe you should heed the advice, its not just me.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

That's the irony. This "forms = a way to fight" mentality isn't centuries old. It's in the last few generations that this crime against CMA occurred.

And I guess you got proof of this.

It really amazes me how people know what was thought and done 100 yrs ago when we even can't agree on some things a few years back.

Remember what is writen down is not neccessarily what happened or the gospel truth.

[SevenStar]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been said...

There is value to forms. They are used to teach you the principles of your system - how to move properly. you can spar all day, and you will not once move like a mantis stylist, for example, if you do not know how you are supposed to move. that is what drilling and forms are for. In addition, I think that they are good for muscle memory. Do you place your knee past your feet when you go into a bow and arrow stance, or do you do it properly? are your feet pointed correctly when you go into a horse stance, or must you correct yourself? on the same token, bad habits can be formed.

is the repetitive solo technique drilling in judo and bjj useless also? according to this article, they would be.

[joedoe]

I feel hurt now - ST00 ignored my post :(

[red5angel]

Well ST00, I do have to say that so far, alhtough your argument is good your stance (no pun intended) seems a little weak. You say that because no one can offer solid proof that forms are a benefit, they must not be. However, you have not put forward any solid proof against.

[ShaolinTiger00]

joedoe, - truly sorry. I'd much rather talk to new people than argue with the narow-minded ;)

Does that qualify the form as alive?

No Joe, the form is still scripted and is thus labeled a "drill". but its an improvement imho to a form.



Redangel,

Proof for my side of the argument? I literally have hundreds of thousands of examples of boxers, kickboxers, judoka, wrestlers, sambo players, bjj, MMA athletes who win against other very skilled opponents by using this principle of training. None of those athletes uses forms to enhance performance and if forms did make them better, surely they would use that training method because bottom line: they use what works.

[red5angel]

I understand what you are saying, and what you have said, but I propose that it isn't the forms that is the issue, it's the people doing the forms.

In all those sport fighting MA you mention, I haved run into plenty of people who have been willing to work hard for what they want. In my experience in CMA or TMA, it is usually not the case. For some reason most TMA people have this realiance on skill alone and not on getting into shape, addressing all areas of combat etc..... It's like some guys want to look at it realistically and the majority of those in sport fighting are like that, and some guys want to look at it like hollywood, and those guys get into TMA.

[diego]

to bite a qoute from a rap forum

if kfo had a g-a-y post forum this would be the first thread.

seriously like 6 pages relating to nothing but conjecture

to bad we dont have any yawn smilys...but this guy will do:rolleyes:

[diego]

oh fuc-k its at page 9 and not 6........JOY

[Royal Dragon]

Proof for my side of the argument? I literally have hundreds of thousands of examples of boxers, kickboxers, judoka, wrestlers, sambo players, bjj, MMA athletes who win against other very skilled opponents by using this principle of training. None of those athletes uses forms to enhance performance and if forms did make them better, surely they would use that training method because bottom line: they use what works.


Reply]
And just How many of these guys originally came from a traditional school and practiced countless hours of forms in thier formative years??

It seems to me, that in the beginning, and intermediate levels, forms practice has great value, especially for building and arsenal, and developing good structure and body mechanics. Even working out the applications to the forms in a two-man drill type of practice is very good for building tour arsenal. Every style of fighting has forms in one way or another. boxers Shadow box for instance. They don't have all that much to remember, so it's easy for them to go right to working random combo's, but in Kung Fu, we are supposed to do this with our techniques as well. It's actually part of forms training. We just have lots of techniques, and ways of entering and applying them, that is why our forms are longer.

You see, the form is actually the curriculum for the level your at. it contains all the techniques, as well as much of the exercises needed to really excel with those techniques.

Once you have the form memorized (or at least a section of it), and you can do it with proper structure and mechanics, you move to pre arranged two-man practice. Then once the techniques are well etched in your subconscious, and they work without having to "Think" about them, you start free fighting them. Even this free fighting is part of mastering the form, even though it is more formless.

Once you get to the free fighting part, you really just do the form as a warmup, or to look for new techniques to incorporate into your arsenal.

Training the form correctly requires doing the set form beginning to end, but it is also broken up into individual drills and trained just like the individual drills seen in MMA gyms, Boxing Gyms, and anything else physical that is taught. Gymnastics is a good example. I have seem my daughters coach drill her in her floor routine over and over again, as well as individual components of it. Kung Fu does the same thing, only it goes one step ****her, and teaches you to apply it in a free form environment because of the unpredictability of combat.

I really don't see MMA gyms NOT doing this. If all they did was throw two guys together and say "FIGHT" there is no way they would learn anything. They must first have some skills to practice before they just free fight. In THAT phase of MMA training, they are doing forms work. Without it, they would NEVER be able to develop a "Live" game because they would not have an arsenal to play the game with in the first place.

Kung fu forms are just longer, that's all. In the end, you end up training the same way, one little bit at a time, only instead of having the "Gracie CD ROM" to reference, you have a memorized, choreographed routine to reference that does not require electronic equipment to access.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
joedoe, - truly sorry. I'd much rather talk to new people than argue with the narow-minded ;)

Does that qualify the form as alive?

No Joe, the form is still scripted and is thus labeled a "drill". but its an improvement imho to a form.

<snip>


But it is not exactly scripted - you don't know what the checker is going to do.