How long to achieve black belt/sash in your art ?

[Samurai Jack]

Yesterday, two of my Sempai achieved shodan (first degree black belt) at the Eugene Aikikai. (Low bow to them). It took them nine years of training between four and six days a week.

Now, I understand that shodan is considered a beginner's rank in many traditional martial arts, though in our school the shodan are treated as advanced students. I must also add that nine years was an unusually long time to wait to recieve this honor, but one of my Sempai explained that it took him so long because he began training late in life, and it therefore took longer for his body to adjust to Aikido practice.

When I was training Kung fu San Soo in the nineties, it took about three and a half years for me to get my black belt. I was training about six days a week though, which greatly accelerated the process of learning. Having a black belt in san soo hasen't made learning Aikido any easier though, LOL.

So what style do you guys train in, and how long does it take to achieve a black belt or sash in your school?

[MightyB]

You must be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, and walk in the land of Bhudda before you can wear the coveted black sash. It takes about 1000 lifetimes.

Dude,

TCMA don't have belts. You's good or no's good. Tat's all.

[apoweyn]

in my eskrima school, the average was about 5 years, i think. but i started out in taekwondo. left that school without testing for my black belt. so by the time i got the black sash from my eskrima instructors (yeah, i know; there generally aren't ranks in eskrima), i'd been at martial arts for about 10 years.

all that said, i have to agree with the sentiment that it really doesn't mean a whole lot.

but if anyone makes some pithy remark about holding up their pants, so help me...


stuart b.

[red5angel]

I got a black belt a few days ago but it's only to hold up my SHORTS!!!!!! ;)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
I got a black belt a few days ago but it's only to hold up my SHORTS!!!!!! ;)

alright, that's it! as soon as the travelocity site comes up, your arse is grass!

[MightyB]

If you're wondering about becomming a Sifu...

At least--- LEAST--- 10 yrs of HARD CORE practice in a reputable school with a reputable teacher. That's if you want to be Legit.


Oh yeah belts are only good for keeping your pants up.. Wax on --- Wax off!

[red5angel]

come get some pretty boy, not only am I drinking milk, but also the blood of my enemies, and I am getting stronger!!!!


besides, I said shorts, not pants.

[rogue]

Here's the black belt Red5Angel bought. (http://www.henryandjune.com//Assets/products/020417/4751.jpg) :p


come get some pretty boy, not only am I drinking milk, but also the blood of my enemies, and I am getting stronger!!!! The reason he switched from milk to blood is R5A is lactose intolerant.

Hows them there shins toughguy.:D

[red5angel]

you crotch cricket!!! I am at work here!!! It was funny though....

My shins are fine, my forearms are kiling me though!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
come get some pretty boy, not only am I drinking milk, but also the blood of my enemies, and I am getting stronger!!!!


besides, I said shorts, not pants.

er, i'm drinking the coke... of my cafeteria.

...

i got nothing.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
you crotch cricket!!! I am at work here!!! It was funny though....

My shins are fine, my forearms are kiling me though!

well, i laughed out loud at you and rogue. so the circle of life continues. hakuna matata. pay it forward.

crotch cricket. man, that's funny.


stuart b.

p.s. i really pity the poor sod that started this thread. we're giving him f-ck all to work with.

[MightyB]

my forearms are kiling me though!

Too much monkey spank'n again, eh Red5.

[red5angel]

"p.s. i really pity the poor sod that started this thread. we're giving him f-ck all to work with."


Yeah I feel kind of bad but thats what he gets for bringing up 'belts' on the KFO. I bet he won't make taht mistake again!!

[red5angel]

"Too much monkey spank'n again, eh Red5"

TOO MUCH?! What sort of girlie man, spank it once a week and recover kind of guy are you anyway MightyB?!

[rogue]

Here's something for those forearms R5A (it's clean) (http://www.goantiques.com/search/images.jsp?id=398)

[red5angel]

My sparring gloves are just like that!!! Except sort of a cream with a little more lace at the top....
besides if you are wearing them while spankin it it feels like MightyBs' mother is doing it....

[MightyB]

Only spank monkey until he's about to cry... never make him cry. Restraint builds chi.

[rogue]

Duck and cover!!!

[norther practitioner]

Well, 2.5 years into my training at this particular school, and I have a red sash (it maches my pjs). Actually, a funny story, wearing that sash at a local karate tourney almost got me in trouble. They kept saying I was in the wrong division, etc. etc.
The guy who was pointing this out never even approached me, but did try to talk to the judges during my form...err, so I gave him some words afterwords, and blah, blah, blah, some dude comes up to me that was in my division and gets in my face. I started laughing, and just said, if you are upset that I am wearing a red sash, please realize that it is rediculous, and I only have it to match the uni, we don't use belts or sashes at my school. This seemed to confuse this guy he started yelling for the guy who was interupting me earlier, man, what a bunch of goons. Anywho, I beat there team in the forms, so it all turned out hunky dory.

[red5angel]

"Anywho, I beat there team in the forms, so it all turned out hunky dory."

Yeah but could you beat them in a real fight?! ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Black Belt.

Hmm, till you got to the shop, put some money down and buy your Belt.

Than wear it to class and get laughed at as we don't use Belts or sashes.

;) ;)

[norther practitioner]

Err, don't know, one of my boys I used to spar with matched up against him in both of the sparring divisions, mopped the floor with him (shut out in the point, almost knocked him out in the other division). We used to go about 60/40 with each other, depending on the day. So we were a real close match, as seeing them go at it, he had no clue what was going down so I would like to say yeah, I would have killed him, however you never know he might not fight like he spars. I know my targets change slightly in the priority list when I'm in a real fight (well first priority, whatever is exposed).

[red5angel]

NP, I was just teasin you a little, since all these TMA vs MMA threads have been around as of late. :)

[Leto]

At my old karate school, it would take at least four years to reach shodan. Most styles that use the 'dan/kyu' system would consider the dan ranks 'advanced', I think. Though in all of them, shodan would just be the beginning. Reaching shodan would be like being accepted as a real 'disciple' in the Chinese traditions. Or it was like that in my school. We engaged in more interactive training, more experimentation and 'research', and class was generally less structured.

But I know in some systems, the black belt or sash is the 'top' level, when you're there it signifies you know everything in the style.

[Samurai Jack]

Leto and apoweyn, thank you for your gracious replies.

As to the others, I have been duly humbled, and I will think twice before foolishly attempting to interupt your adolescent and vulgar banter with a question pertaining to martial arts training.

What was I thinking? :confused:

[David Jamieson]

My kungfu teacher used a sash system.

your sash level would be dependent upon the criteria to be met.

some guys were 10 years and no black sash, other guys about 3 yrs and a black sash.

some guys came in with previous skill and would gain it even faster.

But, although they were used, they weren't of great importance compared to what you really knew and could do.

In Tae Kwon Do it took me 2 years to get my first black belt.

In Isshin ryu Karate it took me 4 years to get to Brown belt. I didn't have the opportunity to continue.

Generally, the belt ranking system is used in Japanese styles due to the traditions inherant to that body of styles of asian martial arts.

Equally as general, many traditional Chinese martial arts don't subscribe to the use of belts or sashes as a ranking method and instead adhere to filial piety. grandfathers, fathers, older sons, younger sons, uncles, small uncles(lower classmates of the sifu) and so on.

These days, many martial arts are not traditional (yet) and have no filial piety and no belt ranking heirarchical structure.

In the end, it really has to do with your own hands.

cheers

[rogue]

TKD, 5 years to BB. One person did it in 2 but was real talented.


As to the others, I have been duly humbled, and I will think twice before foolishly attempting to interupt your adolescent and vulgar banter with a question pertaining to martial arts training. No you asked about belt rank, if it was a MA training question you would have started with, "A guy goes for the double...." :p

And as far as out banter being adolescent and vulgar, nyuk, nyuk nyuk.:D

[Laughing Cow]

Samurai Jack.

Crappy cartoon by the way.

You asked how long it takes to reach BB or BS.
CMA are known for not using a system similar to the I-Dan system.
Heck most JMA been using it less than 100 years.

Sashes are even newer in the CMA scene and some finish with a BS othres start with a BS and finish with golden sash or similar.

Same as the I-Dan system the ranks are designed normally per school not on a style or even overall system.

Thus having a BB or BS has only meaning within the style/school that handed it out.

Example:
In Chen TJQ and similar styles we can spend years if not our whole life working on 1 or a few forms.
In my kwoon we got Guys working the same form now for 10+ years.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

there are guys in my bjj class who have been training consistently (read 4 nights a week for 2.5 hours) and still have not gotten a black belt.

In judo, I think it takes 4 - 5.

In shuai chiao, there are no ranks.

[joedoe]

Our school has a sash system but it isn't too heavily relied on. Mainly worn by the instructors & assistant instructors so that the students know who is able to answer their questions.

There are 3 grades before black, with black signifying that you have learned the fundamentals and are now ready to learn the real stuff. Usually takes people at least 3-5 years to achieve black.

And rogue is right about the MA questions - didn't you know that grappling and MMA are the only real MAs? :D

[ricksitterly]

at one tkd school i trained at it took 4 yrs for black belt
at another tkd school it took 6
at another, if you had the money, it only took two yrs (plus you get to join the happy-suck-the-life-out-of-you payment plan)

For a lot of tkd schools, ( i dont know about other styles, but as my experience goes with tkd), belts are a huge money making device, and symbolize little else than a nice chunk of money you're gonna have to pay in another 3 months. (That's why some tkd schools have like 17 belts --- one actually had a "camo colored belt"!! - a stage between orange and green)

Although my style recognizes belt rank, I do not agree with it at all. At some schools, you will find yellow belts who will beat the living p*ss out of so called black belts from another school... of the same tkd syle! I've seen it at tournaments and on the street. In tkd, someone's belt gives almost NO indication of wether or not they're any good ( in any aspect of the art ). This is partly why tkd fully deserves its watered down, commercialized reputation. Yet, because of that reputation, there are some very hard core tkd schools out there that deserve respect but don't get it.

It took me 5 years to get black belt, party because I moved around a lot, but it wasn't until I'd been training about 8 years that I felt somewhat knowlegable in the art. Now that I've been training for 13 years in tkd, and crosstrained in other styles, I can say that I have a nice basic grasp on hand to hand combat in general, but I have a ways to go before I would consider myself to have reached the level of skill that the term "black belt" implies.

I think true rank is determined when you're in the ring, or when you're students are in the ring (or on the street I suppose). One's skill level should be apparent enough not to need a belt to indicate it to others... hmm maybe I should change styles :) anyways sorry for the rant, just kinda venting my problems with tkd here lol bye

[Oso]

5 years to black sash
5 more years at least to a Sifu title

[red5angel]

Samurai Jack, let me give you a piece of freindly advice. Your going to have to lighten up if you want to interact here. There are plenty of people with alot of knowledge here but somedays we just can't seem to get focused. Sooner or later one of us who posesses more sanity then the rest will steer yout thread back to its original subject.
Trust me on this, I have had more threads hijacked by these jokers then I Can count!

[Oso]

r5a's real lesson is to just post a heck of a lot so at least some
of your threads aren't hijacked.
:)

[yenhoi]

:eek:

belts :(

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ricksitterly
at one tkd school i trained at it took 4 yrs for black belt
at another tkd school it took 6
at another, if you had the money, it only took two yrs (plus you get to join the happy-suck-the-life-out-of-you payment plan)

For a lot of tkd schools, ( i dont know about other styles, but as my experience goes with tkd), belts are a huge money making device, and symbolize little else than a nice chunk of money you're gonna have to pay in another 3 months. (That's why some tkd schools have like 17 belts --- one actually had a "camo colored belt"!! - a stage between orange and green)

Although my style recognizes belt rank, I do not agree with it at all. At some schools, you will find yellow belts who will beat the living p*ss out of so called black belts from another school... of the same tkd syle! I've seen it at tournaments and on the street. In tkd, someone's belt gives almost NO indication of wether or not they're any good ( in any aspect of the art ). This is partly why tkd fully deserves its watered down, commercialized reputation. Yet, because of that reputation, there are some very hard core tkd schools out there that deserve respect but don't get it.

It took me 5 years to get black belt, party because I moved around a lot, but it wasn't until I'd been training about 8 years that I felt somewhat knowlegable in the art. Now that I've been training for 13 years in tkd, and crosstrained in other styles, I can say that I have a nice basic grasp on hand to hand combat in general, but I have a ways to go before I would consider myself to have reached the level of skill that the term "black belt" implies.

I think true rank is determined when you're in the ring, or when you're students are in the ring (or on the street I suppose). One's skill level should be apparent enough not to need a belt to indicate it to others... hmm maybe I should change styles :) anyways sorry for the rant, just kinda venting my problems with tkd here lol bye

good grief. i'm stunned. after some of the asenine nonsense you've posted...

this is brilliant. one of the best looks at ranking systems i've come across. nice!


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Leto and apoweyn, thank you for your gracious replies.

As to the others, I have been duly humbled, and I will think twice before foolishly attempting to interupt your adolescent and vulgar banter with a question pertaining to martial arts training.

What was I thinking? :confused:

no worries, samurai jack.

and don't take this too hard. as red5angel said, sometimes we have a hard time getting focused. sometimes people get riled up unnecessarily. and sometimes you have to fire a volley or two back in order to be heard. but hang in there. there really are some extremely knowledgeable people around here. in the long run, it'll be worth your time, i think.


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

KFO = 99% filtering bs, 1% yenhoi.

:D

[apoweyn]

LOL :)

[Suntzu]

Samurai Jack.Crappy cartoon by the way. u trippin… that joint funny as he||… the 3 episode I've seen… anybody see the one when he was crossing this bridge… joint was so long he had to sleep on it… thaan he had to fight this irish dude coming the other way… anyway… soory no belts or sash here…

[red5angel]

"Samurai Jack.Crappy cartoon by the way."

LC, I usually have some respect for you until, well, you open your mouth. You should work on your socialization skills....seriously man...learn to get along...or something.

[ewallace]

Who needs a sash or belt for any reason other than to hold up silly uniform. Those who have black eye - no good. Those who have no black eye - good. Now that's a ranking system.

[apoweyn]

d-mmit ewallace! you were warned!! :)

[yenhoi]

classic signature material.

[red5angel]

I like exallaces ranking system.

[ewallace]

They were initially wrapped around the waist in order to prevent your lower organs from jiggling around during practice.
Just take a cold shower before you start training. Problem solved. :)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by red5angel
"Samurai Jack.Crappy cartoon by the way."

LC, I usually have some respect for you until, well, you open your mouth. You should work on your socialization skills....seriously man...learn to get along...or something.

Oh, you do care. A tear rolls down my cheek.
;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
KFO = 99% filtering bs, 1% yenhoi.



:D

[red5angel]

exallcae, ghthomason - I think the sashes were to keep you from tripping over your "organs", or am I the only one with that problem?

[Serpent]

So many people have so many reasons why sashes were worn, it's funny. Since when did peasant farmers wear sashes at all?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ghthomason


I think a lot of people fail to realize the importance of wearing a sash as a sort of kidney belt. They were initially wrapped around the waist in order to prevent your lower organs from jiggling around during practice.


That being said, my answer to this question is usually: It takes as long as it takes. No more, no less.

I have been given a similar reason for wearing our belts as well. That is also why we are told to wear them tight, especially when we are practicing vigorous breathing techniques.

[Samurai Jack]

Yes, we basically wear the obi (or belt) in order to protect the organs from the jarring impact they would otherwise recieve as we take our falls. Also, as a point of clarification, there are only two belt colors in our Aikido lineage: white and black. Indeed, the Yudansha (black belt holders) are considered "disciples" of a sort.

My original query was certainly intended to pertain to martial arts training, as our grading system dictates not only which techniques are introduced to the student, but also actually represent a level of skill in applying the techniques. That is presumably why my sempai recieved thier shodan so late, and also why some students may never achieve black belt ranking.

I am aware that grading systems have been abused over the years for financial reasons, and also simply by virtue of being adopted by arts which are ill suited for such a system. After all, if your system makes no distinction between material taught to beginners and advanced (as my San Soo training did not, for example), then it is quite possible that a powerful or talented beginner could learn to excel beyond his seniors.

On the other hand, how could a beginner possibly master a technique he has never been taught, or match the ability in a technique his sempai had practiced thousands of times before him? I cannot hope to defeat my peers who have trained for nine years or more when I am merely starting.

As to the argument that "fighting ability" cannot be measured by a belt grading sytem, I must again disagree. When one enters a Kwoon or Dojo, one expects to be taught a certain set of skills. When everyone agrees to play the game according to the rules set forth by the school and it's founders, one is placed in a position where they can actually attain the skills saught.

Certainly these skills are by thier nature limited. You don't walk into an escrima school expecting to ground fight, you don't enter a karate school thinking you'll be taught to fight with exotic chinese weapons. However, within the specialization of the art, you will learn to fight and win (assuming you're involved with a skilled teacher).

If an escrima black sash were to be mugged in an alley with a stick in his hand, I would expect him to fair well. Likewise the brazilian JuJutsuist tackled to the ground.

Now take away the escrima man's stick and tangle him up on the ground with the jujutsuka, we can expect the jujutsuka to come out on top. Does this make the escrima man's black sash meaningless? What about the jujutsuka?

Just my two yen.

:)

[Laughing Cow]

Samurai Jack.

Here is an example:

My style ahs 2 unarmed Forms (roads) and a few weapons forms.

You start on the first form and learn it as you become more proficient your Sifu will show you different things that can be done and developed with the form.

In some cases movements are added to sections and you also learn to move your body differently.
As an exampe:
At the moment I am doing a section that has triple stepping in it, later on those steps will become 3 jumps and we will add explosive power discharge into it.

So yes, a beginner and an advanced student will be doing the same form, but differently.

But where do you split it up into ranks or levels?
Our rough indicator is time spend studying.

Hope this helps.