BaguaZhang and XingYiQuan

[dre_doggX]

We know the both complement each other, but which do you like more(or slightly more)

and which do you think is closest to Tai Chi.

Lets just talk about their similirates and differences, oh and vote.

[Laughing Cow]

Dre-Doggx.

Can you define what you see as Tai Chi?

Are we talking more common Yang or Chen, Wu, Wu Hao, Sun, Li, etc??
Liao Jia or Xiao Jia (I know Yang Xiao Jia is pretty unknown).
Do you include the Beijing Forms and similar.

Sory, for being picky, but I feel that thee are too many different styles out there to simply say Tai Chi.

[count]

Let's just say for the sake of argument, Tai Chi Chuan is soft on the outside and hard on the inside, Hsing-I Chuan is soft on the inside and hard on the outside, Baguazhang is both. Bagua is superior and compliments either style. ;)

[Xebsball]

everyone knows that the 5 elements steal the lunch of the 8 tigrams all the time

[iron thread]

How did this turn from a "what you personally like", to a "what style is the best in general", in a matter of the first couple of posts?


By the way, Xingyiquan is superior.

[shaolin kungfu]

I dont know either, but have seen both performed. I like hsing-i better just because it looks more forceful and seems like it has alot more power. I'd have to say that ba gua is closer to tai chi(wu style).

[Waidan]

Bagua would choke out xingyi.



Sorry, someone had to say it.:cool:


p.s. If you're going to be picky about the taiji reference, then I think it's reasonable to be equally specific regarding the other styles. For example, I know my 'Fu is leet, but I'm not gonna go vouching for those Yin Fu guys ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Waidan.

Valid point.

[wujimon]

I'd say it really depends on what aspect you're wanting to train on. I think xingyi is very good at learning how to differentiate energies, but then again bagua palm is pretty sweet too with the evasive manuervering. I'd say train in all in due time. To me, there's something about the continuous flowing nature of bagua that gets the groove going. I would definitely train in bagua more but right now it conflicts with my LHBF training.. uggh! Sometimes I wonder if they did that on purpose ;)

Just b/c of the flowing nature, I'd say that bagua is closer to taiji. Xingyi is a very difficult art to train and takes a lot of time b/c a lot of the movement coupleds with the use of gravitational pull is foreign to a lot of people. All personal preference I guess.

[wujimon]

oh yeah.. be sure to check out this forum

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing

as well as the main site for xingyi info:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html

One of the best xingyi sites around if you haven't already stumbled upon it. I'm still trying to look around for a really good bagua site. Maybe someone can post some links :)

[HispanicPalm]

Personally I like both styles and I feel it depends what you want from the training cause Hsing-I I think will be easier to learn and apply for a person who has never done Internal Martial Arts whereas BaGuaZhang I feel is a more complex form of combat and requires at least a basic knowledge of another form of combat truely benefit.

I Guess that why from what I read " Dong Hai Chuan only taught Martial Artist who already had an extensive backround in another art"

That pretty much gives me an Idea of BaGua's complexity cause back then if I'm correct BaGua only had two palms the single and double palm change.

Just my thoughts!

PEACE

[dre_doggX]

but Wu could apply to I guess

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by dre_doggX
but Wu could apply to I guess

In that case I can't comment much, primarliy a Chen stylist.

:(

[dre_doggX]

In praticing my Yang style Tai Chi, I found that I could more Bagua Zhang like movements, as more of the movements are circular and fulid. But when I used to practice Chen style, I guess it was Xingyi Quan that look more silimar. I am not qouting Erle, but I read in Tai Chi Magazine, saying that Yang style was probably closer to the orignal Wudang forms, and that the Chen family learned these forms, however put there styles where more shaolin.

XingYiquan, definately is Shaolin influenced. General Yuei popurised it, and but made Eagle Claw but even he created the five elements and XingYiQuan, to someone else.

Does anyone know the story of BaguaZhang.

[HispanicPalm]

The story I know of BaGuaZhang tells that it also has shaolin influence since Dong Hai Chuan was a highly skilled lohan stylist and he added a circle walking meditation taught to him by taoist priest so that tells me it has wudang influence as well. The combination of the circle walk and his lohan backround is how I think he created the single and double palm change.

PEACE

[iron thread]

" Dong Hai Chuan only taught Martial Artist who already had an extensive backround in another art"

From what I learned, Dong Hai Chuan did this to add flavor to his art. He had a martial art system based on his previous martial arts experience and taoist circle walking. Dong Hai Chuan decided to only teach martial artists already established in other styles so his students can each incorporate his student's previous styles. Examples of these students are Cheng Ting Hua, and Yin Fu. These two examples apparently seperated into two schools of pakua and are based on Dong Hai Chuan's original style with a flavor thrown in from the student's previous martial arts experience.

[omarthefish]

[i]Originally posted by count Bagua is superior and compliments either style. ;) [/B]

:D

[dre_doggX]

Interesting....


will which is closer to orignal Wudang boxing, not that it matters that much, seeing that its common for shoalin and wudang to borrow each other.

[Crimson Phoenix]

it seems bagua is leading!! ahhh bagua brothers unite!!!!

[Waidan]

"Original Wu Dang Boxing"

I've always been a bit unclear on that concept. Is (was?) there actually a Wu Dan Chuan (or whatever) style? A few people have asked me if bagua is a "Wudan style", and normally I just tell them it's taoist to the core, but beyond that I couldn't comment.

[Xebsball]

you guys are just lucky i didnt call the emptyflower peeps to come vote here

[dre_doggX]

which is closets

[nvisblfist]

doesn't Sun style TC incorporate elements of Bagua, Xingyi, and TC.
I've been told that putting the five animals of Xingyi with the eight palm changes of Bagua gives you the TC thirteen

[count]

Sun Lu Tang's Tai Chi does not combine three systems. Well, maybe a little bit of Hsing-I stepping but that's about it. And the thirteen postures come from 8 energies and 5 directions. Anyway, I just wanted to say, Bagua is still leading.:p

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Xebsball
you guys are just lucky i didnt call the emptyflower peeps to come vote here

I'm an emptyflower peep and I still say BAGUA RULES !

p.s.

Wudang is more of a geopgraphical location than anything else. It's a very large classification of styles. It's a mountain and all the various styles of distinctly daoist flavor which were developed on and around Wudang Shan (Wudang Mt.) are wudang.

[CD Lee]

I'm an emptyflower peep and I still say BAGUA RULES !


Omarthefish - How could you man?!??!?!? Everyone that is anyone on Emptyflower KNOWS that Xingyi Rules Baby! You must turn in your Emptyflower card right now. :)

I am in an applications class right now that uses elements from both systems. I have got to say, that some of our apps that use Bagua's spiraling energy are really hard to combat. This is where I have a little trouble, continuing to spiral. I like to root and bamboo step people. However, so many concepts are the same, just a different way to express them.

Logic also says, that if you only have to consider five elements, versus eight, then you have removed three extra things from your mind, further freeing your mind, and must be considered 'superior'.

We all know what this means of course, Xingyi is winning...

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by CD Lee


Omarthefish - How could you man?!??!?!? Everyone that is anyone on Emptyflower KNOWS that Xingyi Rules Baby! You must turn in your Emptyflower card right now. :)


Really? Between xing I and Ba Gua, I'll vote ba gua, between the three biggies, I'll focus on taji, chen of course.

:)

[CD Lee]

Walter, I stand corrected. :D

[dre_doggX]

BaguaZhang does have straight punches, does Xingyiquan equal palm strikes.

Oh, I was studying Feng Shui,, and the Bagua Engeries do have the five elements in them.

Heaven is Metal
Earth is Earth
Water is Water
Fire is Fire
Wind is Wood
Lake is Metal
Thunder is Wood
Mountain is Earth.

Correct me if Iam wrong.

Xingyiquan is believed to of been influence by Shaolin, but BaguaZhang was influence from SHaolin Lohan and Toaist Circle Walking, the Wudang do Circle walking, even before it was martial.

Lohan by itself is still a powerful martial art.

combined wit Taoist theories,
BaguaZhang is something I have to try.

however, wit Xingyiquan, its seems not to be the moves, but the internal will power behind them.

But this can be applied in Bagua Zhang.

I will take both
But I think I will study Bagua Zhang first.

[GeneChing]

I wouldn't say any style is better than another. I might say a particular style is a better fit to a given individual, but the beauty of CMA is its diversity. Still I voted for xingyi, just because that's what I'm studying right now.

I used to study Sun style - I even studied with Sun's daughter Sun Jianyun. To be honest, at the time I found it to be great qigong but not much for fighting. I'm rethinking this now that I'm studying xingyi.

As for the original Wudang fist, the Wudang curriculam is actually divided into several subsystems - I want to say 8, but don't quote me on that. I'd have to dig through my notes to be sure. I think I posted this on this forum a while back too, so you can dig if you really want to know. Tai Chi, Xingyi & Bagua are three of the eight, if it is eight.

[Prairie]

I practice neither bagua nor xingyi, but from my outsider's view of both I appreciate xingyi more. That view may change if I had some experience in both.

[cvp72]

If you want to go through a rock, use Hsing-I.
If you want to go around a rock, use Pakua.
If a rock is coming at you, use Taichi.

It's not the style that is important but one's understanding of a particular style :)



Originally posted by count
Let's just say for the sake of argument, Tai Chi Chuan is soft on the outside and hard on the inside, Hsing-I Chuan is soft on the inside and hard on the outside, Baguazhang is both. Bagua is superior and compliments either style. ;)

[count]

Originally posted by cvp72
If you want to go through a rock, use Hsing-I.
If you want to go around a rock, use Pakua.
If a rock is coming at you, use Taichi.

It's not the style that is important but one's understanding of a particular style :)


Ha! Bagua isn't about going around any thing! It's equally important to know your enemies style!

It might be said, Tai Chi is like a rubber ball,
Hsing-I is like a metal ball,
Bagua is like a ball of string, winding and unwinding around you.

Bagua is a system with the most options.;)

Welcome to the forum, cvp72. You wouldn't be in Chicago by any chance? Your profile doesn't say much about you. I've had some lama myself. :cool:

[count]

I'd say 7 star Mantis and Tai Chi are both like springs but Mantis and Bagua also share many concepts. Especially your 8 step. Next time your in LA, come play with us, Andy. ;)