Hakka "Hay Gong"

[gwleachiv]

What is the origin of the term "hay gong"? I have only seen it used in reference to certain exercises in the Hakka fist styles, where it seems to indicate a form of breath work (qigong). In one instance I have seen it defined as meaning "hard qigong", or some sort of isometric tension exercise.

If anyone knows what Chinese characters are used for the above mentioned phrase I would be interested to know what the "hay" in "hay gong" stands for. For Hakka kuen practitioners, can anyone elaborate on the meaning of the term, or how it is used to specifically differentiate the exercise from a qigong exercise? Thanks all.

-Grady

[BearBear]

Hi.

Someone correct me.. but

as far as i have always known Hei Gong to simply be the cantonese version or Qi Gong which is Mandarin .. there for "southern arts" us the term "hei gung"

hay & Hei are just different ways to romanised.

the characters are the same \, i dunno how to post image on this forums...

[BearBear]

but onto hei gong and nei gong, gen powers etc in hakka arts

anyone want to share information, methods, theories and so on about this aspect of hakka arts?

thanks

BB

[gwleachiv]

Thanks for the info, BearBear. Can anyone confirm that "hay/hei" is simply a romanization for the cantonese term for breath, as "chi/qi" is for Mandarin? That would make for a rather succint answer to my question. Would still love to hear anyone's take on specific examples as well.

-Grady

[BearBear]

to be more exact and i think
http://cgibin.erols.com/mandarintools/cgi-bin/ugif/6C23.gif
http://cgibin.erols.com/mandarintools/cgi-bin/ugif/529F.gif


qi4 gong1
hei3 gung1

the numbers show which tone to use..

other common words (mandarin & cantonese) would be

Gong fu and Gung Fu
Wu Shu and Mo Suet

BearBear

[BearBear]

weired... the images came out as urls ...

but if u click on them u'll see the character for qi/hei and gong/gung

take care

BB

[Sho]

Yes, because you're not allowed to post pictures in this forum. ;)

Hakka is so close to Japanese onyomi pronounciation that I'd want to cry. Hehe. It's a really cool dialect.

[David Jamieson]

hei gong = chi kung/qigong.

yes it is a different spelling of the same thing.

cheers

[Sho]

Yea, hei is Cantonese and qi is pinyin (Mandarin).

[buddhapalm]

From my understanding (or lack of it :-) , the term Hei in Hei-Gung meant literally "Air/Breath Work", whereas Chi-Gung meant "Chi-Work" and Noi-Gung meant "Inner-Work".

These are the Cantonese dialect versions and Mandarin would substitute Qi for Chi etc. But Hei, Chi and Noi are different words focusing on different things, yet very similar or related things.

But as is usual in the mystical world of MoLum, the more descriptions there are, then the harder to pinpoint and solve the mysteries withheld, but that is a whole different discussion.

"Hei" is used a lot in Cantonese. For example the term for courage/determination/backbone is "Gwut Hei", literally "bone-air", air meaning as in "air of quality" or atmosphere. Also the term for the "air of a killer" is "Saht-Hei". They say he has the air of a killer, the look of a killer, he has "Saht-Hey". You probably all know the term Yi-He" meaning "Rightiousness-Air" or air of rightiousness. Those people in the martial circle (MoLum) are expected to exude the air of rightiousness - Yi Hei. When they say he is "Ho Yi Hei" then he is very rightious and takes care of his brothers. A good and loyal brother. This is the major teaching on the path.

This is just a little Cantonese I picked up on the road for those interested.

Now what does "Gung Hei" mean in Gung Hei Faht Choy ? Is it the same as "Hei Gung" ??? ;-)))

It seems to mean something like "Work Air Rich Luck" which implies work hard and reap luck and money. I am sure it means this, but I would like to really know, because I am guessing on this one.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Diamond Talons]

BearBear not much chances of anyone who knows posting such stuffs on open forum & some ways I think this is right & some ways I think it's wrong but that just opinion & not fact. For what it's worth it's just words that really mean different things to different Pai & some say yin mostly & some say yang mostly & some say both practices needed to make it right. I don't speak for any hand but mine & I say & teach that Hakka Tong Long plenty hard as is & mostly stuffs you ask about should be soft & you can say yang for hard & yin for soft if you want as it's just words. Certain stuffs for real power in most Hakka Tong Long I've seen really tears the craps out of you shoulders if done too much & seems most young guys do too much for some stupid reason I don't know so soft work helps put the shapes in the body without tearing up the body & just another side to same coin & coin needs two sides to be complete you know. Now stuff tied to heavy kung & mostly with killing hands & nothing soft about any of it no doubt but this done for limited time & not life practice just to get it in the body & then keeping it much much easier on the body but getting it plenty of pain & hell no doubt. You ever play your hand in set work with shapes made hard or soft by your mind then you do this thing to some measure allready with key to soft being mind tied to breath to make shapes with no thought of muscles so body like water & key to hard is mind tied to breath to make shapes with all thoughts on muscles so body like iron & this fact & not opinion I think okay.

[Sho]

buddhapalm,

Qi and Hei (in qigong and hei gong) are the same character which is used for example in the word weather; tin hei. And the hei in Gong Hei Fat Choy means joy or happiness.

[buddhapalm]

Hi Sho,
I had no idea that the written character for Chi and Hei were the same. It was explained to me that Hei meant Air and or Breath, and that Chi meant Chi-energy. If the Chi is the breath/air circulating through the body and cosmos, then it makes sense. But with the above explanation given to me I would never guess that the written character would be the same for Chi and Hei.

I do not read too many Chinese characters, so that is interesting.

Those that talked to me using the word Hei Gung also used the term Noi Gung and Nei Gung. Noi Gung meaning inner work (internal) and Nei Gung meaning outer work (external). They implied that the Chi Gung was a different thing, or at least that was my interpretation. But then again I did not ask too many questions of a 70 year old hard core Toisan Sifu nicknamed Crazy Bull.

From my opinion Hei Gung implied hard dynamic tension type exercises, combining breath and controlled tension, similar to Iron Wire and Wing Chun's tension sets. Whereas I believed that Chi Gung meant more of the softer chi circulation trainings, such as the microcosmic orbit and standing pole exercises.

Perhaps I am wrong about my interpretation of Chi Gung and Hei Gung. But I will ask around some more now.

My teacher taught more by demonstration than by using definitions, so my definitions may be clouded and vague. So I look forward to possibly clarifying the terms Chi and Hei a little more.

Since the Cantonese use Chi as the Mandarin use Qi, then why would the Cantonese use the word Hei also for the character Chi/Qi ?

You have me really curious now.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Fu-Pow]

One thing about Chinese is that every character can mean something slightly different relative to the character that it is next to.

Chi in Mandarin or Hei in Cantonese (same character) literally does mean "air. "

But in the context of the Chi Gung or Hei Gung it means "Air Work" or "Breath Work" and refers specifically to breathing excercises.

The other context I've heard "Chi" or "Hei" used in is the term Sha Chi in Mandarin or Saat Hei in Cantonese. It means literally "Death Air." But more accurately means "Killing Aura." It is used to describe the "destructive intent" of high level martial artists when doing forms. .So the definition of Chi has changed slightly here to mean "Aura."

Nei Gung= "Internal Work" and this can mean a lot of different things depending on what style you do.

For example, in Chen Taiji "Nei Gung" refers to "Chan Si Jin" or silk reeling skill. In Hung Ga "Nei Gung" might refer to the "Iron Wire" skill.

In addition, "Chi Gung" and "Nei Gung" are interelated meaning that there is usually some component of "Chi Gung" included in "Nei Gung" excercises.

Then of course there's "Nei Jin" which I won't even get into.

Oh and your confusion lies in the fact that your teacher was using mandarin and cantonese interchangeably, chi and hei are the same thing...... just different characters.

[extrajoseph]

Chi - Mandarin with Wade-Gile notation.

Qi - Mandarin with Pinyin notation.

Hei - Cantonese.

Hay - Hakka.

Ki - Japenese.

All mean the same thing with the same Chinese character.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Chi - Mandarin with Wade-Gile notation.

Qi - Mandarin with Pinyin notation.

Hei - Cantonese.

Hay - Hakka.

Ki - Japenese.

All mean the same thing with the same Chinese character.

Prana - Indian.

;)

[Yum Cha]

Well said DT.

In my opinion, internal strength has yang and yin components. I don't believe in external strength (yang) and internal strength (Yin). You either have internal strength, or you don't. This is my perspective and experience, not what I have read.

Breathing is naturally an important component, but not the only one.

Serpent,
Thanks for the clarification

[Diamond Talons]

YC good to hear you & I hope things okay with you & yes I agree with what you say about internal power & some say gift & others say practice but it either is or it isn't from what I see of this thing. YC yes breath just part & I think at early times of practice very important but in time if a person gets it breath not so important any more & maybe not even mind or intent very important any more it just is like a life of its own. In my hand this leads to a choice in paths to pick & which path a person walks says why he ever really study the hand & once feet on path no way off without losing much if not all skill made over the years.

[Fu-Pow]

Also "Noi" (Cantonese) and "Nei" (Mandarin) mean the same thing ...."internal."

"Wai" in Mandarin and "Ngoi" or "Oi" in Cantonese mean "external."

Maybe you just have your romanizations wrong.

Anways, in summary

Nei, Noi=internal (mandarin, cantonese)

Chi, Hei= Air, Breath

Wai, Oi=external

Gong, Gung= Work, Effort

Jin (Jing), Ging= strength, energy

[buddhapalm]

Thats great,
An official dictionary of terms we can use. Now we can be on the same page. I had no idea that Hei was the same character as Chi.

With so many definitions and dialects it makes it so much harder to understand the concepts, and so much easier for charlitans to take us for a long ride.

I just talked to my Kung fu Uncle and he had the same definitions that Fu Pow/ExtraJoseph had. He speaks Mandarin, Cantonese, Fukienese (I think), Philippino and a little Japanese and Korean (Martial words only).

His opinion is that the Noi Gung was the inner training, the Wai Gung was the external, like dynamic tension training.

For me I have never really made it a point to fully use the correct terminology, but it is a good idea.

Thanks guys.

Buddhapalm

[TaoBoy]

At my school we define hay gung as dynamic tension and breathing exercises. It incorporates exercises that develop the fast twitch muscle fibres.

[gwleachiv]

Taoboy,

Feel like giving us some examples of the sort of exercises to which you're referring (and what style you practice, since I don't know)?

-Grady

[gwleachiv]

I take that back about not knowing your style. I simply hadn't looked. ;)

-Grady

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by gwleachiv
Taoboy,

Feel like giving us some examples of the sort of exercises to which you're referring ...
-Grady


Grady,

It's a little difficult to describe the exercises. Perhaps the easiest way to describe the simplest form we do is:

Imagine doing a push-up while you're standing. You extend your hands and arms away from your body as if you are pushing against a wall. In reality you are pushing against nothing. Of course you perform this movement in such a way as to resist yourself (dynamic tension). You arms actually shake from the tension.


There are many variations on this principle - but I think this answers your question.

Peace.