Knees and Elbows!!!

[S.Teebas]

Id like to start a topic on elbows and knees. I think these are pretty effective tools when it comes to combat. Who here like practicing using these in sparing or training or whenever? Or who thinks these are low level techniques ( I think I read someone here say that) as opposed to using a punch over an elbow for example.

I think elbows can be good and powerful, but I think id like to mix up the ranges in the fight by confusing the opponent with different tools. I’ve heard people say that when you get to a certain skill level you could probably juts punch your way though (keep changing angels of attack etc.) But I think going from elbows to punches keeps people that bit more guessing. What’s you opinion on this?

[Marky]

Hiya,

I've been taught (and I agree with this notion) that there is a punching range, and their is an elbow range (although some short-range punches are used in the elbow range). Some elbows come off of techniques (such as bong sao), others are used as replacements for punches when you're too close and the angle is right for an elbow.

On a side note, I get yelled at for conciously trying to use elbows. For example, I'll be in punching range, and I'll step in just so I can use an elbow. So as I've been taught, I shouldn't try to move in and use an elbow, but when conditions bring me close, an elbow is a useful weapon.

[Losttrak]

Elbows and knees are very handy and useful infighting tools but they can get you DQ'ed in San Shou.. oops

[OdderMensch]

Elbows and knees are very handy and useful infighting tools but they can get you DQ'ed in San Shou.. oops

so?

Elbows and knees, god's gift to the little guy!

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi S.Teebas

In my lineage, elbows and knees are indeed extremely important, but not so much for their direct striking abilities. Rather, we use them to help "connect ourselves to the floor." I believe every motion, technique, strike, etc. involves using our elbows and knees in this manner. That is not to say we can't or don't strike with our elbows, but rather, they play a much deeper role than striking tools for us.

That is of course, unless I am wrong, and in which case, my seniors can correct me. =)

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[John Weiland]

Hi Zhuge,


Originally posted by Zhuge Liang

In my lineage, elbows and knees are indeed extremely important, but not so much for their direct striking abilities. Rather, we use them to help "connect ourselves to the floor." I believe every motion, technique, strike, etc. involves using our elbows and knees in this manner. That is not to say we can't or don't strike with our elbows, but rather, they play a much deeper role than striking tools for us.

LOL! :D I originally read the thread to see if there was any hint of such awareness. Elbows and knees linkage are what good Wing Chun is all about. Striking with elbows and knees against the real deal is impossible without the former condition being met. Without structural awareness, this might as well be another thread about chain punching or grappling. :p :p :p

[OdderMensch]

Elbows and knees linkage are what good Wing Chun is all about.

I have to agree with you, the connection between elbows and knees are where it's at. My sifu is alway harping on that, pointing out the conection(or lack of in my case ;) ) at every oportunity. The thread starter seamed to want to disscus knees and elbows as strikeing surfaces, but thats never stoped us from going on to importnt (or unimportant) topics before.

How many of you disscus the "6 harmonies" in class?

[aelward]

I definitely think that elbows and knees are nice striking weapons at super-close range; however, I think they are hard to train in a random chi-sao/sparring situation without hurting your partner.

I was told that WT lat sao has an entire elbow and knee section, though it would be impossible to take out of the entire lat sao context.

[Stevo]

In my lineage, elbows and knees are indeed extremely important, but not so much for their direct striking abilities. Rather, we use them to help "connect ourselves to the floor."

That's how I do my pushups when I'm a bit tired.

[fa_jing]

I'm a huge fan of the knee and it is one of my best weapons, capable of ending the fight with one blow. Elbows, I'm not so good at - never can seem to get the range correct and it's not my first instinct to use them.

[fa_jing]

BTW, I don't think the 6 harmonies work the same way in Wing Chun as they do in other arts. For instance, we don't always point our feet in the same direction as we strike, like they do in Northern Shaolin. Furthermore, to me there is more like 4 harmonies when punching, the shoulder should be in line with the hip. Again, this is different than some other styles that twist the torso at the waist.

[AndrewS]

Hi John,

there are some nice teaching cycles in WT for working knees and elbows fairly early, hence they become pretty good tools for us, fast. Chi sao and the elbow stuff blur pretty quickly at the outset, because they're learned at similar times, and collapsing your structure in regular chi sao leads to working with elbows a lot. Ironing out this mistake can take a while. Oh well, each training approach brings with it limitations and bonuses.

Elbows play a significant role in our chi sao from early on in subtle ways (i.e. the transformation of an indoor pak into a lan control), and are later explored in Biu Tze sections.

Personally, I work elbows from everywhere I can, to make them a tool. While I prefer whole body strikes, striking with just the upper back and shoulder apparatus giving power can be a very effective strategy (and possibly the only one workable) in certain situations (i.e. midair during a belly to belly throw if you can snake an arm out). A few quick local shots in the face have proved useful for some people using this tool under those circumstances.

Later,

Andrew

[mtod1]

OdderMensch -- i've never heard of the 6 harmonies 8 methods before. I found this website

http://trinity.psnw.com/~dlmurray/6h8m1.html

is this a good description of what the 6Harmonies and 8Methods? and can you give me your own 'take' on what they are.

Thanx in advance
seeya

[OdderMensch]

when we talk of the harmonies we only use what they call the "outside harmonies" ie hips and shoulders, knees and elbows, hands and feet.

As Fa_jing said, I don't think we use the harmoines in quite the same way other systems do, but I doubt many sytems use them in the exact same way.

look at the "chor ma" stance, there is a box that can be formed between the knees and elbows, both stepping and stikeing modify this box, thus altering the relations betwen the harmoines. Proper use of this structure allows for power and stability. Many of the throws & takedowns I know come from attacking the other persons harmoines. ie pulling someones wrist while locking of kicking thier ankle.

[TjD]

lately ive been finding that a good forward knee is real useful in regaining the lower centerline or the inside of your opponents legs (not to mention its a good hit).

sideways knees work real well against larger guys.

elbows are just all around good things :D


*edit: spelling