randy williams blitz mag

[russellsherry]

hi guys sifu randy williams is in australian blizt martial arts magizine this is the fierst time an american wing chun teacher has such coverage out here i think , seef sidekick looks the strongesst i have ever seen he has been training very hard for his up coming semminaes dowmunder russellsherry sifu

best regards to tapman and everybody in close range combat

[TwoManSaw]

Hello, you mention in your post that Randy Williams Sifu has been preparing for his seminars downunder. Are you able to give any more information on this topic.
Thanks

[Grendel]

Originally posted by russellsherry
hi guys sifu randy williams is in australian blizt martial arts magizine this is the fierst time an american wing chun teacher has such coverage out here i think , seef sidekick looks the strongesst i have ever seen he has been training very hard for his up coming semminaes dowmunder

First you say RW is a Wing Chun teacher, then you say he teaches side kick. Which is it? :p

Hint: There is no sidekick in Yip Man Wing Chun. It was just an add-on to impress the kids. You make it sound like karate.

Regards,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Grendel
Hint: There is no sidekick in Yip Man Wing Chun. Really? I think you are mistaken. For example, it's the last kick in Chum Kiu.

Matrix

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Matrix
Really? I think you are mistaken. For example, it's the last kick in Chum Kiu.

Matrix
No it isn't. That's just a sop to the popularity of TKD in Hong Kong contemporaneously with the rise of Wing Chun's own popularity. I think Leung Ting was one of the first to add it to what he teaches.

The addition of side kick from TKD/karate is what I meant by the dilution, debasement, or make-over (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=280677#post280677).

Regards,

[Rolling_Hand]

Re: Re: randy williams blitz mag

quote:Originally posted by Grendel
Hint: There is no sidekick in Yip Man Wing Chun.

Really? I think you are mistaken. For example, it's the last kick in Chum Kiu.

Matrix

------------------------------------------------------

Matrix,

Hey brother...I second to that.

Who is this Grendel anyways?

[Rolling_Hand]

Grendel wrote:

I think Leung Ting was one of the first to add it to what he teaches.

--------------------------------------------------------

You are making another assumption!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

Who is this Grendel anyways?
Hi Roger,

Come to the Bay Area get-together on April 27 and find out.

It'll be a good way to get to know each other better.

Regards,

[sagasa]

Once again, it seems when Sifu Randy Williams is mentioned people have to say something. Learn to disagree and get on with training.

Well having trained in wing chun for a number of years prior to studying the Filipino martial arts I was exposed to various lineages. And guess what? There is a side kick. By the way, the masters teaching were students of Yip man

[Wingman]

There are many kicks in wing chun; and they can be classified into 2 general categories: front kick (jing gerk) and side kick (wang gerk).

[black and blue]

In my kwoon we do have a side kick (usually issued to the knee), but this isn't the kick we use at the end of Chum Kiu.

I read somewhere that Yip Man's students in Foshan were taught a side kick at the end of the set, though can't remember where I read this, so I may well be wrong.

But if this is the case, perhaps it's where Leung Ting got it, as I also read he'd ventured into mainland China and learnt a little from Lun Jia in Foshan.

[Rolling_Hand]

Here is the WCK side kick....

http://kevinmartin.moyyat.com/gallery.htm

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Wing Chun has many kicks and included in them would be a type of side kick. In Koo Lo village Leung Jan taught 8 kicking methods so if your WC does not have a side kick perhaps someone was not shown that method but it is indeed part of the WC art.



Regards,

[reneritchie]

FWIW, there is a very low side kick (Wang Ding Gerk) at the end of the YKS/Sum Nung Chum Kiu.

(Not to be confused with all the people here who seem intent on playing 'side kick')

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Hey brother...I second to that.

Who is this Grendel anyways? I'm not sure, but I think he lives under a bridge.

Matrix

[planetwc]

Side kick issued waist high or to the upper chest (ie TKD-style)

OR

A slant kick against the knee or lower leg?

[reneritchie]

planetwc - our Wang Ding Gerk can be used in various ways but targets the lower part of an opponents legs. We do have a kick that goes higher, Fu Mei Gerk (Tiger Tail Kick), which is almost like a back side kick. I believe this was integrated into our system from Fung Siu-Ching's Weng Chun Kuen, and is located near the end of our Wooden Dummy.

Matrix - Did we ever figure out if he was the Beowulf Grendel or the Hunter Rose Grendel??

[yuanfen]

I didnt want to get tangled up in a thread beginning with RW,
or get into lineage arguments.
So- on a matter of substance-
we end up often arguing nomenclature-
There is a "side kick" in Ip Man wing chun- no matter how it is called in English.
Capturing what Ip man did is not easy- given his teaching style.
But in one set of pictures of Ip man on the dummy you can clearly
see a low waist level sidekick on each side of the dummy.

You can see the pics labelled by Leung Ting as #33 and #35
in the Ip Man on the dummy pics in "the Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun" book. There are oodles of self serving LT/WT materials in that book- but it is nevertheless one (among others) important source of information. Leung Ting did not invent the side kick(its not there in his original WT Kuen chum kiu if memory serves)
and the wc sidekick is not a tkd, jkd, karate or thai sidekick. It has wc specific body mechanics and is a "natural" wc movement.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


Leung Jan's Koo Lo teaching also has the Fu Mei Toi! It is a sort of back side kicking method. Besides that there is the Wong Gao Au Liu and Chong Gai Gerk! Wong Gao should be more similar to your Wang Ding and Chong Gai is something more similar to the Chai Gerk concept.


Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Here is the WCK side kick....

http://kevinmartin.moyyat.com/gallery.htm

This page shows Moy Yat doing a kick labeled "side kick," but that wouldn't be my term for it. I would perhaps call it a "slant kick" as PWC does. Moy Yat's head is down in the way that kick was taught to me. Just for added discussion sake, note the different head positions of the two in the photos.

The second photo, "Sifu Martin performs a Ving Tsun side kick at Buddhist Temple in China, 1994," looks like a karate side kick and would get him hurt if he tried it against Wing Chun. It extends far beyond Wing Chun fighting distance. Can anyone suggest its application?

Rene,
If it's Beowulf's Grendel, wouldn't it correspond to Argent's Grendel. :p Don't get me started on Canadians again. :D

Cheers,

[anerlich]

TWC has low level sidekicks in CK and BJ.

It has a mid-section sidekick and several low level sidekicks in the dummy sets.

Grendel is incorrect (though IMO that is unusual).

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Grendel
This page shows Moy Yat doing a kick labeled "side kick," but that wouldn't be my term for it. I would perhaps call it a "slant kick" as PWC does. Moy Yat's head is down in the way that kick was taught to me. Let's see, I can use the teminology that you use, or that of GrandMaster Moy Yat. Would you care to guess which way I'm going? ;) Besides, why get hung up on the terminology. I think we can agree that what you are calling a slant kick is the same thing as our side kick. True?

Also, I do agree with you that the second photo looks like something quite different.

Matrix

[Rolling_Hand]

--This page shows Moy Yat doing a kick labeled "side kick," but that wouldn't be my term for it. I would perhaps call it a "slant kick" as PWC does. Moy Yat's head is down in the way that kick was taught to me. Just for added discussion sake, note the different head positions of the two in the photos.--Grendel

**I'm sure that Tom Cragen or Chango can help you out with this one.

--The second photo, "Sifu Martin performs a Ving Tsun side kick at Buddhist Temple in China, 1994,"--Grendel

**That old building is called "King Fa Wui Kwoon" in Foshan - a theater designed primarily for operas. Trust me, that's not a Buddhist Temple.

--looks like a karate side kick and would get him hurt if he tried it against Wing Chun.--Grendel

**Huh...???

[Chango]

Hello Rolling Hand and others,
I have had the pleasure and privilage to have had personal and private experiences with my late Sigung Moy Yat. Knowing his view on technique based discussion. I would have to ask the question " what does the system ask you to do?" He would always make it a point to make sure the student does not just do what the Sifu says. Yes there is a side kick tward the last section of the Moy Yat Chum kiu. However This brings the big question
"Why" being the side kick? I have had several explinations brought to me on this one. One being that in that particular situation when changing your facing the side kick would be the shortest Kick. Another being along the lines of the side kick forces the player to put his/her weight on the kicking leg while doing the the gum sau. I have also heard of it later being adapted from the dummy form. I cannot say that I found it odd to have a side kick in the chum kiu so I never actually went looking for this particular answer. But let's keep in mind Sigung would find it odd that I use my time with him asking a question that I could get from my Sifu or siboks or Sisuks or Sihings even. Those who knew him would understand what I mean buy this one. ;) As GM Moy Yat would say "Now repeat to me what I just said"! man I used to hate when I was the one getting put on the spot. But now I see why he would do this and how it was for my own good. It's funny how the more we learn the more we understand our elders actions.
God rest his soul he really made a difference in so many peoples lives. As a matter of fact he still does.

Chango (saat geng sau)

[Grendel]

Hi Matrix,

Originally posted by Matrix
Let's see, I can use the teminology that you use, or that of GrandMaster Moy Yat.

I wasn't aware that I was discussing this with Moy Yat. I've been extremely conciliatory in my posts in attempting to understand the English terminology that others use. The web site cited was not designed by Moy Yat, was it?


Besides, why get hung up on the terminology. I think we can agree that what you are calling a slant kick is the same thing as our side kick. True?

True. That's what I said before, but the side thrust kick of the second photo is not a Wing Chun kick, and when one talks about side kick out of context, the image that comes to mind for me in the second photo is karate. I had no idea that there was a lineage that called the kick that Moy Yat is doing in his photo, a side kick. It's not a side kick in my experience, but if you want to continue to call it that, that's fine. Now I know what you mean, I think. Am I getting it? :D


Also, I do agree with you that the second photo looks like something quite different.

Yep. There are several kinds of side kicks, but the second one shown, which is in fact a side kick, is not a Wing Chun kick. Why? Because its range is wrong, it is side facing instead of straight, and its violates Wing Chun structure, and if Moy Yat saw his students kick that way, he might agree.

Now I'll await the barrage of but my lineage does it that way that we've triggered.

For those latter souls, I refer them to my signature. :p

Regards,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Grendel
I've been extremely conciliatory in my posts in attempting to understand the English terminology that others use. The web site cited was not designed by Moy Yat, was it? No, but I know that the term "side kick" is common in my lineage, which is Moy Yat. As for you being "extremely conciliatory", I don't think that was the case. In fact when the term side kick was first mentioned you referred to it as "just a sop to the popularity of TKD in Hong Kong contemporaneously with the rise of Wing Chun's own popularity." and "Hint: There is no sidekick in Yip Man Wing Chun. It was just an add-on to impress the kids. You make it sound like karate".

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see anything conciliatory there.

As for the second photo, I stated that it "looks like something quite different." I never said it was not Wing Chun. It does not look like something we would do, but I don't claim to have a lock on what is "real" and what is not. I have an opinion, that's for sure, but that's a different story. ;)

Your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[reneritchie]

Jimbo,

My favorit remains "Yellow dog raises its leg." That has instant classic written all over it.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya RR,


Wong Gao Au Liu is such a cool/funny name. Make me laugh everytime I have to say it. Sifu also thinks it very funny. He like to call it the dog takes a pee kick! lol Love those old names.


See ya,

[reneritchie]

Yes, hopefully, however, the obvious "follow up" move is never needed in real application! Though it certainly would be distracting, and hillarious for bystanders!

[Wingman]

]Originally posted by reneritchie
Jimbo,

My favorit remains "Yellow dog raises its leg." That has instant classic written all over it.



Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hiya RR,

Wong Gao Au Liu is such a cool/funny name. Make me laugh everytime I have to say it. Sifu also thinks it very funny. He like to call it the dog takes a pee kick! lol Love those old names.

See ya,

Hi Jim & rene,

I imagine that this technique is done with both hands and one leg on the ground supporting your body; and the other leg executing the kick. Is my description accurate? Is this technique used when by some circumstance you are taken to the ground because you slipped or your opponent executed a sweep against you?

... and rene, what is the "follow up" move that is never needed in real application? Would you care to share it with us, please?

[Jim Roselando]

Wingman,


Nothing to do with the hands touching the ground!

When you lift your leg and turn sideways to kick it looks the leg on a dog that lifts up to pee!

The follow up technique was just a joke from Rene about taking a wizz on the guy after the kick! :D


Greetz,

[black and blue]

When you lift your leg and turn sideways to kick it looks the leg on a dog that lifts up to pee!

Haaaaaaaaaa!!! So Rene you fibb! Lifting a leg and then turning... you're chambering your kick after all.

Me thinks I have you and your dog on the run! :)

:( Urgghhh. 'Dog on the run' and 'yellow dog raises its leg' has conjured up an image no one should have to envisage.

[Jim Roselando]

B&B,


There is no chambering!

There is a half way spot that if you were watching it would have this picture in your head. Perhaps I should have been a bit more accurate in its descrition.

The maxim states: You methods depart from where they originate!

It shoots right from where it is!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Wingman - No, I've usually seen the 'hands on the ground' kick termed "back horse kick" or something similar in other Nam Kuen, but never seen it in WCK.

Jim - Yup! ROFLOL!

B&B - I never said I didn't chamber my leg, reread my post! But anyway, in YKS/SN we aren't the yellow dog lifting its leg, we're the tiger turning its tail 8P

[black and blue]

Rene: Please keep your tail to yourself :) If we meet and you turn on me I'll be sure to turn away and avert my eyes :eek:

Jim says: "The maxim states: You methods depart from where they originate"

LOL, I love these common sense sayings!

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[snip]...The follow up technique was just a joke from Rene about taking a wizz on the guy after the kick! :D

Greetz,

LOL. So it was just a joke!:D Sorry, I didn't get the punchline.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Wingman - No, I've usually seen the 'hands on the ground' kick termed "back horse kick" or something similar in other Nam Kuen, but never seen it in WCK...[snip]

Hi rene,

Is this what you are refering to?

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0870409247.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Below is the description of the book:

"A book that collects technical of a style not very known, the boxing of the dog, but that collects superior techniques of defense in situations of inferiority and simple ways of arranging unfavourable situations. Basic for those that are black belts or equivalent. Many tehniques of kicking, one solo kuen and the paired practice. An excellent book."

So there is such a style as dog style boxing! And this technique could be appropriately called "dog raises its leg" or "dog takes a pee kick". :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

Interesting foto!

It has nothing to do with Wong Gao but its interesting.


See ya,

[reneritchie]

Sorta, the version I've seen didn't have the guy on one knee, but straight legged with the foot on the ground. More like the one in Leung Ting and Kwan sifu's 10 Animal Set book, Horse shape fist, if memory serves.