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Samurai Jack
02-06-2003, 11:02 PM
So I'm working out in the gym yesterday and still feeling a little bushed from Sunday's workout. I decide instead of squats or deadlifts I'll give my ol' back a break and try the leg press instead for a change.

I figure how much weight to use by adding my body wieght to what I would've used for squats, load five plates on each side, and pump out six easy reps! Since this is waaaaay too easy, I throw on two more... then two more after that.

I'm leg pressing 630 lbs. at this point (not including whatever the end of the leg press weighs)! This huge body builder who ALWAYS squats more than me and is like twice my size walks up with this look on his face: :( and says, "Dude, there's no way you can lift that, you're gonna hurt yourself.".

What gives? Is this usual? Am I that guy in "Unbreakable", or are leg presses really so easy that everyone can lift more than triple their bodyweight ?

Mr. Bao
02-07-2003, 05:38 AM
SJ:

Not to be disrespect to you or rain on your accomplishment, however I must be honest.

Leg press machines or any strength conditioning machines for that matter aint something I would brag about in terms of real strength and load. There are plenty of experts who can tell you better than I can why these types of machines are quite inferior to free weights. And just because you get strong on these machinese does not mean you have the strength to use in real life.

For example, if you can bar bell squats (back or front) with the same load you mentioned on the leg press machine, I would give your justly dues because that is truly as accomplishment. And I bet dollars to donuts that you will not be able to squat the same load on the leg press and thats if you do squat correctly. Leg Pressing alone poorly effect your bar bell squating skill because it takes out all the other secondary and stablizing muscles out of the picture which does help in a real squat.

I believe people seeking true strength and power go old school and lift some real weights, kettlebells, dumbells, barbells, etc. The machines are for people who are doing rehab or body builders who dont care about power, strength, but just the "pump" aka
water/blood swelling in the muscles.

You can stop your ego with I more powerful than I look thang now, sjack. If I was there, I would ask you would you like to squat workout with with me if you gave some egoistical look of conceit. Sorry to rain on your accomplishments.

Arhat of Fury
02-07-2003, 10:19 AM
SJ,
630LBS is no slouch when it comes to lifting although I have to agree with Mr. bao that leg press is not something you want to gauge your strength on. If that was the case I would be lifting 810LBS. There is also a great deal of proper form that needs to be excersised on this machines. Cheating can make it very easier to lift heavier weights. Form is most important to "get the work"

Squatting is a more accurate gauge for actual power because it is harder to cheat.

Train hard,

AOF

Samurai Jack
02-07-2003, 12:24 PM
Mr. Bao: Did you read my post? This is the first time I have ever used a leg press. My regular leg workout consists of squats and deadlifts almost exclusivly. I had intended to go into the gym and squat that day, but thought twice because my low back was sore. Sorry to rain on YOUR ego, but I wouldn't mind squatting with you, provided that YOU aren't as conceited as you come-off sounding. :p

Arhat Of Fury: Yeah, I got to thinking this morning about what all this means. Taking away the back and stabalizing muscles, it appears that my legs are much stronger than the others. So the question becomes: If your lifts are only as strong as thier weakest link, are my legs getting the workout they need to grow and get stronger doing solely squats?

Wouldn't it make sense to do leg presses AND squats so my legs get the workout they deserve? Further, who determines what "functional strength" is anyway? I train in the gym for martial arts reasons. I'm much more likely to use my legs to "push off" of the ground powerfully, as opposed to putting something heavy over my back and lifting it. Right?

Arhat of Fury
02-07-2003, 12:37 PM
Sj, I do agree that I do like the leg press after squats for variation in direction and muscles that are worked. I beleive they are useful and if done right can have some very functional benefits. I found that after iI corrected my form and quit using my arms to help as part of the upward motion, i had dropped weight but got a much better contraction/workout.

AOF

FatherDog
02-07-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Taking away the back and stabalizing muscles, it appears that my legs are much stronger than the others. So the question becomes: If your lifts are only as strong as thier weakest link, are my legs getting the workout they need to grow and get stronger doing solely squats?

I would have concluded the opposite. Taking into account that your lifts are only as strong as their weakest link, what assistance exercises for your back and stabilizing muscles could you do, so that their development would catch up to that of your legs and allow you to lift the maximum that either muscle group can handle while squatting?

Ford Prefect
02-07-2003, 01:23 PM
Samurai,


I'm much more likely to use my legs to "push off" of the ground powerfully, as opposed to putting something heavy over my back and lifting it. Right?

Actually, the motion of a squat done correctly better simulates the movement of jumping and sprinting.

Fatherdog,


Taking into account that your lifts are only as strong as their weakest link, what assistance exercises for your back and stabilizing muscles could you do, so that their development would catch up to that of your legs and allow you to lift the maximum that either muscle group can handle while squatting?

Your abs play a very important role in squatting and staying stable. Standing Ab Pull-downs and hanging foot-to-bar leg raises are the exrecises of choice for most elite powerlifters.

For back exercises, goodmornings, which actually work the whole posterior chain, are used quite often in training the squat and deadlift. Westside Barbell actually trains the goodmorning more often than they squat.

Another great back exercise that works the posterior chain is the reverse hyperextension. You need to build yourself some equipment for this one or buy it for $700'ish, but it works your lowerback, butt, and hams incredibly well too. It was developed out of necessity by powerlifters looking for a way to increase their squat.

ElPietro
02-07-2003, 02:22 PM
There is nothing wrong with using the leg press. And yeah your strength seems more than reasonable. If I were to guess you can probably squat close to 300 judging by your leg press total.

Usually you can leg press at least double what you can squat.

It's more of an isolation movement for your quads. It's not 100% isolated like leg extensions, but still much easier. You don't need your hips and posterior chain in the movement as much to cause your skeletal structure to become erect from a crouch. You are just pushing the weight with your wall to the bench, so that helps immensely. No balance or control issues. Not even form issues really. Although, there are some of the same form issues for leg press as for squats. I see most people on the press only go down partway. This is like a partial squat. You should be going practically until your knees are to your chest. Basically, as far back as you can go, whilst still keeping your back flat against the bench and not rounding your lower back.

Alternating squats and leg press, or doing the press in conjunction with squats is an excellent training method.

Samurai Jack
02-07-2003, 04:12 PM
So where can I find an example of "goodmornings". I've never heard of them. Also haven't ever heard of a "posterior chain". Is this the erector spinea, or some other muscle complex in the back?

Sounds like I might be onto a killer squat routine though if I started doing squats, leg presses and something for my back.

Mr. Bao
02-07-2003, 09:47 PM
SJ:

Looks like you took my words personally. GOOD! Hard criticism is good for thinking honestly good or bad. BTW, I didn't mean to belittle your skills, but "bragging" rights of leg pressing great loads isn't impressive in my book, in my opinion. If you are hurt by this, tough. Not to be disrespectful. If you bragged this manner in some of the hard core gyms like westside or other places they would share my same feelings. Needless to say, I am not showing you off or claiming I am stronger than you are in squats. I dont know you personally and your level of skills. But I am confident in my own ability and understanding the pros and cons of free weight and leg machines presses. I do not regret what I said and I still stand on it. Best of luck leg pressing.

Oh yeah, if you are ever in nyc and want to workout sometimes inside my gym you are more than welcome here at New York Sports Clubs. PM me if you ever visit NYC.

BTW, good morning is the exercise that f*#@ed Bruce Lee's lower back and put his ass out of action for his philosophical bsing and creation of JKD. It is my assumptions that he probably did warmed up properly or lift a load he couldn't manage or
his form sucked. However, we all can learn from people's mistakes and build from there.

Basically, you hold the bar the same way you do a squat and keep your head, back, hips, "neutral" and eccentrically bent over (keeping neutral)/ legs are straight. You should feel your lower back, ass, and abs being loaded and than you concentrically pull yourself up right (keeping neutral). Remember to brace your core and contract your glutes while doing this exercise. And remember to warm up and be careful about your form and load.

Better than nothing I say? Well, reverse hyperextension: Go to your regular hyperextension bench and do a handstand where your feet should normally be and do a reverse hyperextension. You can adduct a stability ball or use smaller db to increase the load.

I also have the link www.checkinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=27. This article written by Mr Check will explain one of the cons of machines, the overloading pattern problems, indirectly speak why it aint so nonfunctional. If you are familar with Power To People, Pavel also have mentioned this problem and used Mr. Chek's theory in his book. Enjoy the read.