Any Info On Spiritual Kung Fu [Archive]

Cody

02-08-2003, 10:47 PM

fiercest tiger. What you describe is too weird for me too. It sounds off the wall. I didn't know. thanks.

I agree that what I speak of is a sort of enlightenment (relationship between self and energy and projection of that energy) made manifest. Yet, even in that genre, there can be a thin lines.

It's a matter of intent, and method (spirit paper; that's a pip). I'm also not comfortable with taking a slurp of Uncle Wiggly's Spirit Enhancer and VaVaVoom!!

Naturally occurring altered states of consciousness and/or trance states can be part of processes (not chemically induced) which give marked results in agreement with a person's character, dictated by the conscious and subconscious will of that person and no other. The key words are Focus and Intent.

The question of possession can come in when there are "lapses," allowing a stronger person's energy to make use of and enhance one's own. One might not be aware of this.

Indeed, extraordinarily firm understanding of who one is, and what is acceptable and not acceptable to yourself, along with heightened awareness of one's own energy, to the extent that you begin at least to recognize the presence (generally when it moves) of another's energy within you, are necessary, for openers. It's not enough.

With irresponsible training, the touting of spiritual empowerment in MA is ludicrous at the least and reckless endangerment further along the scale. And, yes. I do believe that degrees of spiritual KF (along the lines I described) training, all the way to the higher levels, should be available to people who have potential and are willing to work for it, even if they are not capable of mastering a system in order to reach those levels. In fact, the skills are very different and can exist quite independently. Yet, physical development is necessary if one wants to be prepared to fight with these skills. There is an overlapping, and a branching off, depending on what you're working with in the student. This sort of thing is not an important issue to everyone. However, not having it addressed as it should be, imo, leads to problems of people looking to questionable sources because the doors are shut.

Cody

extrajoseph

02-09-2003, 12:42 AM

Chan Heung’s elder son, Chan On-Pak was an expert in Luk Yum Shut, which included Shen Da (fighting by calling on the spirits) and Fu Da (fighting by using magic spells). Story has that he killed with Luk Yum Shut and was punished not having a male heir. Since then, Shen Da and Fu Da were not taught in CLF.

Shen Da involves calling on the spirit of the dead to fight your battle. Ritual and magic incantation are used to get you into a trance to become someone else and the technique is called “sifu seung sun” (sifu enters your body”). Like any technique, it can be broken and taken apart.

Shen Da is only effective against the feeble minded, it is useless against the righteous and the skilful and the magical stuff (like drinking ashed water, chanting magic spells and ritual blood sacrifice) is only there to scare you. The real danger is if you are not psychologically balanced, it will easily lead to personality disorder and sever psychosis.

There is nothing sprirtually enlightening about Shen Da or Shen Gong, it is just another cheap shot at defeating your opponent by making him scare of you. It is a mind game that can easily backfire on you so better spend you time on the basics and have a healthy body instead of a messed up mind.

Having said that, I like the Spiritual Kung Fu movies and the Chinese ghost stories, they make wonderful entertainment and we should leave at that.

Cody

02-09-2003, 03:51 AM

extrajoseph,
I also find casting spells and calling on spirits of concern.

imo, these practices might be twisted versions of other Inner techniques, in that they do not foster psychological independence. That is a primary problem that I see. The spells can be used to train to focus the mind and the spirit with resulting amplification, but it's how this is happening (as you describe it) that concerns me. I see this method primarily as a training tool. Having not experienced it, it's an opinion. This might be overly simplistic if the matter is considered in a different context. Yet, I feel that way in my own mind.

I think calling on things Outside of one's self, if that is the beginning and end of it, is a shortcut. At the very least, you don't know what you're inviting in. not really. I'm speaking to the matter of outside skilled people who are alive and kicking, and take on any thought form they please. The victim can accept these as reality, and it's like running a tape after that.

Also, many people are taught from childhood to call on outside forces. It is a stretch, but not an implausible one, to extend empowerment education along these lines. I'm not saying that specific spiritual/religious beliefs necessarily lead to what we are discussing, so please I wish no one to take offense. I am seeking to offer explanation as to why the route of calling on spirits and ritual might find acceptance, especially in a culture having great reverence for ancestors. There might be sufficient Psychological reality to give the method potency in someone who already has abilities.

In my view, it is the looking inward and then projecting outward, which yield results that don't lead to the nut house. Risk occurs when the strictest of evaluation is Not brought to bear on one's intent regardless of emotional state. I have also found that this work brings out both the best and the worst in the same person, the same master. It's not a cure; it's a process. Not automatically going to make you a better person, only a better-defined one.

I see nothing the matter with pursuing this knowledge if one is naturally inclined or has fine guidance. I'm not talking about a specific group, just going beyond the physical into what I speak of generally as spiritual Kung Fu.

Simply scare tactics? sometimes, yes, especially if the practitioner is a quack. However, there are many who can do plenty to scare the daylights out of someone because he simply doesn't know or comprehend where it's coming from. I refer to when there IS incoming. If a ritual is performed in front of a clueless victim, the sounds and actions and possible projection might act in such way as to affect this person's mental functioning, suggestibility, etc. There is the matter of expectations on the part of the victim.

Spells are not necessary to enter into a trance-like, or no-mind state. I'm not equating these two, but feel that they are related.

If one is unsure of one's own intentions and motivations in an ordinary state of consciousness, of course messing with identity is risky. If this person follows someone who wants to dominate, a great deal of harm can be done.
First of all, the unsure one has to find out who he is, and then he has to separate out the data which he has either accepted as part of himself, or as part of someone he has absorbed, or, some joining of outside energy with aspects of his nature with which he has had little or no experience to the point that he doesn't realize what is himself, what is the outside, what is anything. The opportunity for abuse is remarkable.

While one might not be able to always defend adequately, the maintenance of sanity is dependent on self-knowledge, self-acceptance and self-love.

As in most things, there is quackery and there's the real thing. It gets tricky and dangerous, and sometimes sad, with casualties at both upper and lower stations on the "feeding chain."

Cody

Diamond Talons

02-09-2003, 05:40 AM

Lots & lots of talk of stuff that one person says they didn't even know was a different practice than the hand & another person who doesn't even have it in his hand. What things I show young guys about this forum thing is that lots of mouth boxers & many with opinions but no real experience to base opinions on but fast to say things about stuff they personally know nothing. You're arrogant as hell XJoe & maybe that works with your CLF Brothers but not with me as all through CLF fighting on forum you show you can't do the first thing any real guy can do & that is fight with hands you just mouth box forever & claim to be old man so you hide & you Cody talk a lot after saying you didn't even know the simple differences of Sun Dar & the hand. You two good examples to show people of what & how not to be which is arrogant & stupid for you XJoe and just stupid for you Cody who don't know first thing about Sun Dar but have lots of pretty words from a book to write as you own when you just copy words.

Cody

02-09-2003, 12:12 PM

One need not know names relevant in history to have awareness of what Is, or in order to come here to learn and to make direct or tangential contributions. Not everyone is as well versed as you or Many others at KFO. I respect that knowledge.
There are different kinds of knowledge. Put them together and it makes for a synthesis of effort, which I hope would improve the human condition, and individual quality of life.

Sometimes experience sounds illiterate. Some might seek to shut down its voice because it's embarassing, or is kicking down a door that has "Private" or "Employees Only" written on it. This is done by making the speaker seem foolish, ignorant of what he speaks of because he doesn't know something else. It's false logic, but it works more often than not. It can work even when a person is honest about what he knows or doesn't know. Very hard to turn this around under certain external conditions -- lack of experience and/or people having something to lose. In the latter, it can be dangerous for the speaker. One can have insight and be "illiterate" about many other things.

Indeed, I had, recently, read one sentence about the presence of spells in CLF, but No further info was forthcoming. It wasn't worth it to me to go back and find that one sentence. I can try though, if it is so important. I didn't mention it here, as I derived nothing from this sentence other than a raised eyebrow at the time.
But then, I was not called illiterate in what I take as the usual sense of the word. (right now, I don't feel like going to the dictionary.) I copied from a book? My own fiction? DT, I write in a complex style which is my work. When I get info from a book or another person, I give credit as it is due, whether in posts or signatures.
I am analyzing concepts and descriptions, and I am processing them to the best of my ability in terms of experience, while exercising a great deal of restraint.

Diamond Talons, you appeared to be most polite and incisive, in general, at one time. It is my opinion that there is no reason for you to insult me, except to shut down this discussion because you might think it is going too far. I can not speak for anyone else.
There is nothing wrong with what I'm talking about, except from a CMA cultural point of view, in which it is certainly not acceptable. I have chosen to step around that judgment in favor of other priorities, and it has cost me dearly, both to be silent, and to communicate more openly.
An independent mind and spirit which will not be owned, and a free and devoted heart, come as a lead weight to someone in a subordinate position such as I. So be it. I never claimed to be wise.

In my opinion, KF is ultimately mind and spirit boxing which demands a specially strong body. There are degrees of proficiency, with the ideal being a balance of strengths. That is not within the grasp of all. That doesn't mean that those who are not up to the ideal should not be fully developed according to individual abilities, for the good of the person and of the group, with compassion, strength and accountability.

Everyone boxes as they are motivated to, and as they can. Mouth boxing can be empty or full. I can't always judge. It doesn't bother me. Why not accept it? To my knowledge, DT, you have not been shown disrespect personally. I wish you would extend that tolerance.

Cody

Diamond Talons

02-09-2003, 01:04 PM

Cody you flower mouth box which is as useless as flower hands boxing & I write to SETANSI & you step in as if I write to you & for a person with what looks to be a lot of school you stupid as hell to pretend you didn't step in with talk about you not knowing the people I write about when I not even speaking to you. You flatter youself with talk of free spirit when you just want to be free to be stupid without being called on it & tolerance for you little one is more than you deserve. Maybe you and less than Jo Seph get a private club so noone kick down your door to show you the error of your mouth running before your brain & running way ahead of what you know. No Cody mouth boxing can never be full as it is words & words just represent a thing & never the thing itself & you too full of pride to admit when you're wrong but I point it out to you anyway. You can't find this in book & you noone so you never be taught so there's nothing for you to consider & without foundation your opinions are just the wind blowing across an empty field so you enjoy the sound if you like as I call you just what you are & that is stupid for forming opinion with nothing & add full of false pride & desire to make youself puffy with words about how noble you are when you just a little boy playing with things you know nothing about & crying when caught. Sun Dar not something to make light of or put down or say things about without knowing what it really is if for no reason than part of another culture whether yours or not & you have no respect so you given no respect & you don't seek truth you seek to make youself to be something more than you are. XJoe has allready shown himself to be a coward mouth boxer & he says man comes from monkeys & for him & his family I'm sure this is right as he is chattering monkey hiding in a tree which is good place for him as he's not good enough to walk on the ground with men & there's many Tigers on the ground that eat little chattering monkeys just for small snacks & question for you Cody is what are you a chattering monkey or a man.

extrajoseph

02-09-2003, 03:10 PM

It seems you have a strong desire to fight me, I will send my spirit to satisfy you.

When you are ready, go and buy a live chicken (I was born in the year of the Rooster). Kill it by cutting its throat, skin and dice it up into 72 small pieces of about one quarter of an inch in size (burn and throw the rest of the meat away). Lay them out neatly on the table, 8 across and 9 down. Chew each raw piece slowly with a mouthful of warm sake mixed with the fresh blood and whisper these words twice, once looking skyward and once looking earthward, “Extrajoseph, for truth and honour, I am ready to meet you!" Start with the top right hand corner piece and work yourself down and across and eat all 72 of them in one unbroken process. Make sure you mention my name each time.

You must do this ritual in secrecy and in complete silence with no one and no sound around you, just some incense burning (in Yin numbers of either 2, 4, 6, or 8 sticks) in the darkness and a copy of this posting in your right hand pocket.

Wait for 16 days and the first strange Chinaman you meet will be “me”. Provoke me and I will give you a beating you will not forget, talk to me and you will be touched.

If you believe in Spiritual Kung Fu you will see me.

I am waiting.

Extrajoseph.

Cody

02-09-2003, 03:17 PM

DT, I didn't have time to complete reading your post. I'll do so another time. Frankly, it's a tantrum, and hurtful. I said what I had to say. I have as much right to be here as you do, and to my feelings, as you do, and to knowing what I know, as you to knowing what you know. If I am correct as to where your venom is derived, then I am saddened. But, that cannot be helped.
DT, if you cannot be respectful to me, please do not expect me to react in kind, because I don't want to. I am more concerned with evolving into a better human being. I might not be worth much to you, but I attend to myself and to what I am becoming.
take care,
Cody
__________________________________________________ _
I came to this thread, even without knowledge of some of the specifics, because I felt I had something to contribute and some things to learn.
I am not in a good place.
PART of it is my fault, with not knowing what to do and at what time, and with what clarity. Now I have to backtrack.
PART is due to the cunning and ruthlessness in the world, which also serves a purpose. I don't have this in my nature.
PART is due to the weaknesses and instabilities present to different degrees in all, but which can become serious in circumstances of power.
Why do I mention all this? It is directly related to my experiences in the spiritual aspects of KF which exist across systems, and which I naturally gravitated towards without being aware of it when I had studied for just one year. While I have not been able to develop much along these lines, though far beyond then in awareness, this is where my heart is. in what I call the essence of Kung Fu, as the mind and body and spirit work in disciplined unity. It appears that any good KF system would contain the necessary elements. It's not a matter of one over another really.

Comes a time when one needs to do something constructive while the fan is loading up again, even as all avenues except those going nowhere are blocked. It's not a good idea to push someone against the wall when they have no place to go, except to give up. That's how I feel. And, it's risky to try to affect changes in mindsets when people have something to lose, to the extent that someone like myself is expendable.
Maybe I won't succeed, but at least I won't, again, have regret that I didn't act when I should have. A mistake I can accept, but not this. That is what I have to say on this matter, in as much detail as is forthcoming. If I don't make it, C'est la vie. Hopefully circumstances will allow me to do what I think is right. Maybe there is still a well with fresh water, and maybe compassion and knowledgable power flow from it. That is one thing that can get me on my knees, partially because I'm very tired.
thank you.

Cody

Diamond Talons

02-09-2003, 03:50 PM

Cody noone says anything about right to be here or right to opinions & you show youself for what you are a chattering monkey & nothing more. You evolve to nothing as you have no respect for feelings of others you just cry when your feelings hurt so you go cry. No venom for you Cody as you noone & rate you go you never be any one & who the hell are you to say what is about Sun Dar that is not of your culture & why don't you tell me who your people are so I can say craps about their beliefs & then cry foul when you object chattering monkey. You say with your mouth & this is where you seen for what you really are just all mouth who has to say about stuffs you know nothing as you have no skill past your mouth. You so arrogant & hide behind pretty words you're easy to see & I give you chance to show you evolving by saying you might be wrong to say such things about Sun Dar but you show your arrogance by insisting you're right to say wrong things. No more talk with you Cody as what you say you have to say not worth typing answer to I just tried one more time to be sure about you & this isn't difference of opinion this is your mouth over reaching your knowing stuffs & insulting a people not yours but talking as if you know & your fate is sealed by your arrogance.

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 02:41 AM

Cody,

Please don’t let "little person" (xiao ren) like DT get you down; he is just being unnecessarily mean and unkind. Despite his bravado, he knows little and can’t even put a decent sentence together; you have every right to express your opinions the way you see fit. Let me tell you something funny about DT, he thinks God created woman out of Adam’s rib, that shows how much he knows about woman…:D

Cheer up and take care,

JosephX ;)

Eddie

02-10-2003, 04:40 AM

Sisuk joseph,
I read something before about 6 magic skills in CLF or something like that. Is this what you were refering too? what are these magic skills.
e

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 04:44 AM

To think GOD is limited to your mind & couldn't create Woman out of man's rib shows how little you know about GOD & how much you think about youself Less than Joe Seph. Good you believe in monkey story as you're just a chattering monkey in a tree not good enough to walk with men & scared of all the Tigers. You're hands are nothing more than words on paper so you keep doing your mouth boxing & your crappy CLF hand doesn't have Sun Dar as your hands are in your mouth less than Jo Seph & just no room even in mouth as big as yours ExJoe & feed your family lots of bananas as they're cheap okay.

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 05:43 AM

Eddie,

Luk Yum Shut or Liu Ren Shu in Mandarin is part magic (Shen Da and Fu Da), part Feng Shui (to be at the right place, doing the right thing at the right time), part divination (fortune telling and predicting what your enemy is about to do) and part strategy (for individual and for troop formation). It can strike at your enemy without your physical presence and it can kill without having to use a fist or a weapon. The 6 magic skills does not mean there is 6 techniques; it is not a good translation of the Chinese.

I have not learn this CLF skill, I learned my Shen Gong from another teacher, a Mao Shan Dao Shi, who used to carry a sachet of his Sifu's ash in his pocket all the time. In the end, I had to leave him because I found myself full of negativity and living in the Yin world. I was travelling on the side passage way (Pang Dao), instead of the main path (Zheng Dao).

DT,

There is no need to get personal and nasty with me, this is a forum for discussions of ideas and not a place to vent your hatre. You not only insulted me, but my art and my family, you even managed to insult God, is this really neccesary? What is your problem?

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 06:48 AM

EJ you think this is open forum as long as peoples agree with your craps & you're a monkey in a tree coward & if I insult you so much gutless mouth boxer then come out of tree & I cut your rope then smash your mouth for you. You read your posts stuffs you insulting arrogant fool & then you apologize for your part in this thing which I didn't address to you or that stupid kid Cody but you stuck your nose into it & I cut your nose off EJ so show us all how real you are & avenge my insult with your hands not your mouth monkey boy.

Cody

02-10-2003, 11:13 AM

Thanks, extrajoseph,

I agree and disagree, or have a different views on certain things.
Abuse and head games are things I am unwilling to deal with, except with the few people who cannot help themselves. There is a difference. I've chosen not to read DT's "over the top" posts in this thread. It is upsetting to be so disliked on a personal level in an impersonal situation.

Actually, I respect DT's intelligence, and believe he has studied very hard. The fact that his English is not of a native speaker is of no significance to me. When he has something to say, it's there, both up front and between the lines.

Nor do I ridicule culture. I want honesty and accountability because harm is done. I honestly expected it to be forthcoming because I was willing to offer same; that was my naivete. I think DT sees himself as defending his culture and the secrecy it cloaks. This might have been his way of telling me I crossed a line.

Interesting thread. Unfortunate that it has its sour moments. You're right, though. I do need to cheer up a bit.

best,
Cody

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 11:45 AM

Cody okay I might be wrong about you so I'm not so big that I can't say I apologize for hard stuffs said about you & I try again on this thing as you post shows you're interested in something not of your people & I respect that in a person as it goes past color craps of old. Sun Dar is not what EJ has posted & FT post only a little bit of stuffs about one very very small part of this thing Sun Dar which is many things not one thing or even a few things. One thing it is is a way of looking at the world our connections to this world & keeping a connection with those who are no longer of this world & in this way it's like religion kind of but not like religion where many peoples gather to worship God but where a family gathers to keep some parts of the family members no longer living alive. Peoples say Sun Dar this or Sun Dar that & what it is depends on custom of a family & see I say family not culture as even in same groups it's different since it has a large personal & only personal parts to it. When I say Sun Dar dangerous as hell stuffs I don't mess with I speak of a very very small part of this thing & here's what I try to get across & that's that some parts of Sun Dar rips a man from this world view & gives him another & does this very very fast with no time for the mind to get used to new view. I have very little school but I know that I see only so much & a certain way and some animals sees much more than me & see different & that doesn't mean I can't see these other things maybe but means my mind doesn't recognize things past a certain level. So what happens to a person that suddenly able to see stuffs they couldn't see their whole life & sees just example & not fact okay & question is what would happen to your mind if suddenly you find yourself in world you never know before & you the only dammed person in it this way who would you talk to to tell this new world & answer for me is noone as peoples then say I crazy as hell so I'm stuck by myself & no way to prove if it's real or if I've gone crazy. That's the danger as I know it but that's just a small part of Sun Dar & the craps about spells being put on peoples is just craps & I've had Sun Dar guy do his stuffs to kill me years ago & maybe I dead as hell but don't know it but I don't think his craps works as my mind said no to his magic as soon as I know he was doing it. In this way alone Sun Dar not so much doing to others as it's doing to self & if you want you can say faith as a word for this change of self & many many peoples do great things as they have faith at least that's what I've learned so far in this life so it's just opinion & not fact okay.

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 11:47 AM

DT,

If you read my earlier post, I gave you very specific instructions how to find me, so what are you waiting for?

If you have faith in yourself and confidence in your art, there is no need to insult others and pick fights.

Fu-Pow

02-10-2003, 11:54 AM

When the winds and dust of the mind settle, then you will know the truth.

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 12:15 PM

Cody,

I am glad you are cheering up and DT apologised to you for his bad behaviour. Fu-Pow is right, when the mind is no clear we say the most stupid things.....

Peace.

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 12:20 PM

I don't read much of your craps little EJ after Frank back you down running dog monkey boy & unlike you I post many times how to find me for mouth boxers just like you & bring your FuPow & Serpent too as we just clean up the mess you all are at one time okay chattering monkey boy & if you still lost mouth boxer you send me PM & I give you date time place with plenty of Elders present to see it just like old days okay mouth boxer.

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 12:22 PM

No little EJ your FP not right but others right about you as you're a coward mouth boxer who lives on paper & your lineage doesn't fight but hand lives in the man which leaves you out as you're monkey chattering in tree now shut your mouth or put out your hands coward.

Oldyela

02-10-2003, 12:44 PM

This is just a forum and no more. DT threatened months ago to have his student bust me in the mouth although i am a 7 dollar bus ride from NYC and beat down my sifu when he visits his association.No bust in the mouth and sifu was at his lodge last week.... No beat down. Why do people persist in these constant meaningly challenges and threats?

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 01:01 PM

Your Sifu was NOT at 22 Mott Street last week yellow boy & for $7 I give to poor as I visit your Sifu & fix your mouth for life when I come to your crappy little town & I don't see your Sifu at any of the big events these last 2 weeks yellow boy so where he be this Tues. night as it's the biggest thing of the year. You tell me he'll be here & I'll take care of this thing with him then & there so what do you have to say yellow boy as KJ already says your Sifu SUCKS with no hands & you know that's opinion by many save for Alabama Si Fut as your Sifu was the best his red envelopes could buy which says much about Louie. When does your class meet yellow boy & say days of week & times as a couple young guys just say they want to see Louie in person & see his hands along with yours so a trip is in order if Louie not here this week.

Cody

02-10-2003, 01:24 PM

extrajoseph,
Thank you very much for telling me about DT's post. It took part of the weight off the day. best, Cody

Diamond Talons,
I accept your apology. I have printed out the rest of your post, and will read it thoroughly when I have a still moment later. I have learned a lot in the last couple of days. So, I know what am thinking at this point. When I look at your last post to me, I know that I need to put my experiences on a shelf, away, and see your world out of your eyes. That is being fair. I would like to find a point of common ground. even if we do not share all common beliefs, and background. I would like this to be.

I have things in 3D life to attend to right now. I will get back to you.

take care,
Cody

I hope that the two of you can reach a point of no more fighting, even if differences are unresolved. yes?

peace (and I mean this)

Cody

Oldyela

02-10-2003, 01:53 PM

I luv when people quote others who dont exist. Keith Johnson doesnt exist but hell i guess we should take his word for this.

Sifu came came and visited so why wait to make your visit here. Since this week is a good time come on down. Tomorrow would be a great day indeed.

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 02:06 PM

Because tomorrow I will be at the biggest banquet of the year and all the real peoples will be including all of Lam Wing Fay's families that are in or around the NYC area you big mouthed fool.
So you go right ahead & post the information of class days & times & go ahead & put what little crappy address Louie is teaching at okay boy & I get to you when I get to you but first I take it right to Louie at arms distance but I give you plenty of notice so you get all your classmates to be there.

Fu-Pow

02-10-2003, 02:58 PM

Diamond Talons-

I don't know who you are but your profile says you were born in 1951 making 52 years old.

I guessed from your posts that you were about 15 years old.

Your Sifu has failed in his responsibility to teach you respect and compassion.

You strike out at everyone and it is because inside you strike at yourself.

It is truely sad to see someone who has probably studied for such a long time stray so far from the intended Path.

My sympathy is with you.

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 03:40 PM

Cody you don't try to see through my eyes as that's not a good thing as it would just be two sets of eyes seeing the same & best things in life are found in differences so if I write some stuffs that sounds in your heart or mind then you don't even have to bother looking as you own it & do so in your own way & this is worth sharing I think. FP you keep your sorrow for yourselve & you & Ex Joe get married & have a happy life together & you adopt Serpent so you have whole family. My Sifu teach me a killing hand & maybe you all after other things but my heart is okay with my God so you and monkey boy just have many good years as a couple okay.

Oldyela

02-10-2003, 03:42 PM

Your the one that said waiting was mouth boxing so come down already. Its been almost 2 months since you said you would have me smashed. Hell i'll even open up on wednesday for you. No need to call my classmates or my cousin or my cousins nephew no need to send people in your place. I would luv to see what hakka tong long looks like from you personally.

Ok so since all lams family will be at this banquet tell Mr O of Lam's first family to give you directions if you are confused about how to get here. You cant miss him because he has a curly afro like do.If you get here and are still lost contact the hip sing as sifu taught there for over 5 yrs and Mr O is an active member and he will gladly direct you to the school as he luvs a good fight.

We're :

1 block from the Greyhound Terminal and the NJ Transit Bus Terminal.
10 minutes from Amtrak/30th Street Station= 4 dollar cab ride
1 mile from Interstate I-95 exit 17 (Callowhill Street, Independence Hall).
2 doors from asian world
Located right next to asian world.
http://www.awma.com/map.cfm

Its amazing how all this started as you the person who always said "politics" is the problem with martial arts and when i ask why who my sifu has taught in the past would be an issue since you are against "politics" you started spewing off at the mouth. Dont forget to beat down the rest of lam's disciples who Roger Hagood has taken pictures with or trained alittle with since they will be at this banquet tomorrow also.

Well my directions cant be any better than they are. I am even willing to open
the school on wednesdays to make your visiting more convenience. See you soon.

Luv Elliot

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 04:29 PM

DT,

You got me curious, so I took time off to do a Sunset Fu Gong on you (an ancient Maoshan Taoist ritual with your written words).

You have offended your God and you know what I mean; denying it will only make it worse, so go and make amends right now or disaster will befall on you sooner than you think. Your killing hands are useless unless you obey the law of Nature. You have until "Gui Yed" or the "Ghost Day" to do so. Good luck and this is no joke!

Chut Wun Shan Ju (Master of the Red Cloud Mountain).

JAZA

02-10-2003, 04:41 PM

the twilight zone of KFO:(

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 05:09 PM

EJ I say thank you for all the attention & I have returned your favor by ceremony to the Jo-si of my Spri to rip out your heart & blood put into your mouth so you drown. So now we both wait to see that nothing happens as such stuffs is for the weak minded & this is no joke as there are still peoples to this day who really think the Jo-si are bound by man & can be tasked to do things whether willful or not. Sun Dar about change of self more than anything EJ & you put no fear in my heart EJ as the High Priest himself desired my death through Sun Dar but I just chase him out so he went away crying tears of anger as I held out my hands and mocked his magic craps. Fu Pow I try something different as insults just not a good way to go so I try to explain something to you that maybe help you see why your ways & understandings don't make sense to me & my ways & understanding don't make sense to you. Your hand comes from Temple sources or at least has real peoples in the distant past that were taught by Monks or Monks theirself but some influence there and mostly Buddhist I think so you have a code of conduct a way of being that is tied to your hand & such a hand can't be without this influence & still really be the hand since it's not woven but part of the whole okay. Hakka Tong Long as I know it doesn't come to me this way as there isn't really Monk mentioned save for way way back & I think the whole Hung Mei story just a bunch of made up craps that tries to put Hung Mei above Bak Mei which is just political craps not worth bothering with & this just for me. My hand been in my family since by 1640 or so from family writings with some changes come into it later on but that's not important & what's important I try to say is that the hand I know serves no purpose but to kill as it's not good for sport or play & dammed sure not a good way to get good health. So nothing ties me like your code that tells you how you must be as a good CLF kung fu man & I not saying right or wrong or better or worst I just saying what I understand. Okay no more insults to you Fu Pow or Serpent or even you EJ but you sure as hell funny EJ to post such stuffs & I hope peoples don't get bad ideas about you but you did it. Now I go write your name & words on incense & burn it upside down on my Spri just to make sure you die terrible death & you tell us all when you're dead EJ okay.

Ah Lee (Xin Fung of the 5 Continents)

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 05:24 PM

Thank you Elliott I will get to you when I get to you & no problems with my friends at the Hip Sing which you never been inside the door of & no need to open your school special as I will open your door when I choose whether locked or not big mouth & you right about Si Fut he's just all garbage red envelopes & paper pictures which is more than said for you yellow boy & amazing your Sifu not going to be here tomorrow night did he lose his invitation or don't tell me he just not important enough. Oh I know he's working on learning how to care for Spri the right way since he always screwed that up & how many peoples correct him I lose count but it don't matter as maybe you help him so he can smoke more cigarettes okay. I almost forgot something to tell you silly little yellow boy & that's that any man who says he enjoys a good fight has never been in a real fight in his whole life but you play tag sissies don't know about real fighting yet.

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
Okay no more insults to you Fu Pow or Serpent or even you EJ but you sure as hell funny EJ to post such stuffs & I hope peoples don't get bad ideas about you but you did it. Now I go write your name & words on incense & burn it upside down on my Spri just to make sure you die terrible death & you tell us all when you're dead EJ okay.

So you are wishing me to die a terrible death for wanting to help and tell you of what I can see in your Fu Bu, that is nice, but at least there will not no more insults if you keep to your words and that is a good start. You know the time limit. Good luck.

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by JAZA
the twilight zone of KFO:(

Cheer up JAZA, don't look so sad. Without the twilight zone, how would we know it is a sunny day? ;)

extrajoseph

02-10-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
EJ Sun Dar about change of self more than anything EJ & you put no fear in my heart EJ as the High Priest himself desired my death through Sun Dar but I just chase him out so he went away crying tears of anger as I held out my hands and mocked his magic craps.

You may not have died a physical death, but the magic is working and the High Priest is still there with you and his tears of anger is killing you slowly. You are no match for Sun Da and you need help.

Diamond Talons

02-10-2003, 06:37 PM

EJ I practice this new thing I'm shown on your post okay so I do it something like you as it helps keeps all the bullschits straight as it sure flying deep & heavy now.

So you are wishing me to die a terrible death for wanting to help and tell you of what I can see in your Fu Bu, that is nice, but at least there will not no more insults if you keep to your words and that is a good start.

I always keep my word EJ & that goes for smashing your mouth too so don't let your mind wander too far as it might get lost.

You know the time limit. Good luck.

EJ of course I do & I take a really big turd right as the time is up & then say your name to it before I flush it okay & there's no such thing as luck which you know & you should say yuan fen for such stuffs not fortune cookie luck for children.

You may not have died a physical death, but the magic is working.

EJ of course it's working as I'm dead as hell & now walk the earth without a soul or care in the world & being a zombie dammed sure less painful than being human so thanks again to you.

Judging from your behaviour, you can be more human, but there is still time, so grab it while you can, my friend!

I don't think we're friends EJ but maybe like Brothers who don't get along too good at family affairs & I'm sure you take comfort in such thoughts okay.

JAZA

02-10-2003, 07:34 PM

XJoseph, I was trying to give a fear expression.:cool:
I will back to my Stanilaski class. :D

Oldyela

02-11-2003, 03:22 PM

Seems you have done what you have accused others of .... Talking a strong game then back down. Sad Sad Sad.

So you dont know when your coming or if your coming but you'll come someday one day?

Please tell me how the beatdown tonight goes since most of these people have been seen or trained with Roger Hagood in the past.

Just to correct you the hipsing classes were open to the public if you knew they were being held you could join. The pictures of sifu Louie and Roger Hagood are guess where? So much for exclusivity. haha

that any man who says he enjoys a good fight has never been in a real fight in his whole life but you play tag sissies don't know about real fighting yet.

You're a scary dude bro. You claim to have killing hands but dont know anyone that likes violence.The history of man disproves your statement. A percentage of people who chose professions of violence "have to like to fight"If you have never experienced this than "hakka tong long" cant truly be a killing hand. Anyone who has been infantry,rangers,sas,seals and the list goes on and on has known someone that is natural attracted to violence. You cant have serious hands and not be attracted to a good fight as the only way to develope serious hands is to be constantly fighting and pressure testing what you know to the point of failure.

What a joke

Diamond Talons

02-11-2003, 11:59 PM

Elliott I like your name as it sounds very much like a girls name & fits you good & the event was wonderful & included the Ambassador from Taiwan among other important people from groups across America but no Louie & Hip Sing never open to public you fool & if you knew anything you would know they don't claim to teach kung fu oh I know Philly different & different as retarded. I ask several members of LS family if they knew your Si Fut buddy & all answer WHO. You pathetic little boy Elliott & maybe you get beat up alot for your name but that's your problem & you keep chattering as you're scared & so stupid to give out info on yourself that shows you know nothing of real fighting yet. Your Spri okay Elliott or back in shameful conditions again from neglect & lack of knowing how to care for it. Hey Ellie you real killer guy no doubts as you kill me & my people with your funny as hell posts & nice writing what a joke as that what your no face Si Fut buddy always writes & you two sure know jokes as you see one in mirror every day no doubts.

Diamond Talons

02-12-2003, 09:54 AM

EJ hi I just finished seeing you down toilet while saying your name & after huge meal last night you sure big & smell real real bad but down you go after going around a few times & you fight your fate too much EJ. Your Sun Dar one little stinking mountain & mine for all that is land on Earth so I grind your little mountain into sand & then you play in it like a Child in a sandbox but play nice with other Children or you get punished more than losing your little mountain okay.

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
EJ I practice this new thing I'm shown on your post okay so I do it something like you as it helps keeps all the bullschits straight as it sure flying deep & heavy now.

I always keep my word EJ

DT, did you say you always keep your words? No more insults to keep all the bullschits straight. Didn't last for more than 24 hours, did it?

Diamond Talons

02-12-2003, 11:45 AM

EJ I say no more insults & that doesn't mean I don't tell the truth about things & what I write is exactly what I did & warning on Sun Dar not insult but statement of fact as you sign your name to who you are in your Pai and then I signed my name as to what I am for my Pai. Insult would be like saying your stinking rock on end of rope so easy to cut & defeat it's not worth the time to do it as outcome of allready known & this is example of what I call insult & not at all how I see the CLF hand which has many many great fighters in all lines okay. So yes to no more insults & I still speak the truth of things I do & one thing I still do EJ so you know your Sun Dar don't work on real kung fu man is breath in and out which ****es off my enemies no doubts so I keep doing it. Time up EJ & now you show all forum guys who read this thread how much mo duk you got & admit your curse no good or maybe do the real right thing as man who walks on Earth with both feet not monkey in tree chattering & say you know it all along & then try posting some stuffs about real Sun Dar if you allowed to okay.

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
EJ hi I just finished seeing you down toilet while saying your name & after huge meal last night you sure big & smell real real bad but down you go after going around a few times & you fight your fate too much EJ.

DT,

Just seeing me flushing down the toilet like a piece of turd is not an insult but telling the truth.

Sun Dar is not working because you still breath in and out.

Hmm.. that says a lot, doesn't it?

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 03:09 PM

DT,

I also warned about Sun Dar, so we are on the same side, what is the problem?

Diamond Talons

02-12-2003, 03:54 PM

EJ I say it to turd which I named you & you should know this thing if you what you say you are & if I had picture of you I burn it then put the ashes in can & pi$$ on it then throw whole mess into the street so maybe you know it this way okay & not insult but said as fact that it is. EJ yes you warn of Sun Dar but you do it so that whole of Sun Dar smeared with stupid remarks that make it all out to be silly & for that you wrong & mo duk not part of your training as you squirm to make yourselve right & not just admit your part as wrong so you looking all the worst. Okay EJ enough for you as I thought you real & we get past this stuffs but you just want to mouth box I guess & even Frank see this after a while and quit feeding chattering monkey. You ever learn stuffs worth sharing & be honest about it then I try with you again okay.

Ah Lee (Xin Fung of the 5 Continents) & that's me for real EJ so now you know & check if you will as you get told same thing by those who know.

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
EJOkay EJ enough for you as I thought you real & we get past this stuffs but you just want to mouth box I guess & even Frank see this after a while and quit feeding chattering monkey.

DT, let's see if you are true to your words THIS time. :D

SETANSI

02-12-2003, 05:36 PM

SO MANY REPLIES. TOOK AWILE TO WADE THRUOGH THEM.
THANX TO EVERY ONE WHO RESPONDED. YOUR INFO WAS APPRECIATED.

SO SAD TO SEE THINGS ON THIS FORUM HAVE NOT CHANGED.
I TRIED TO GET AWAY FROM THE LINEAGE DEBATE BUT IT SEEMS EVERYONE HAS MORE FUN THIS WAY

oh well let the good times roll

Diamond Talons

02-12-2003, 05:52 PM

Okay now that I update my ignore list to include phoney what ever he claimed he was I say some things about Sun Dar as I understand this thing & first about Sun Dar. Sun Dar is not a thing just as kung fu the way it used today is a single hand & you can look at Sun Dar as for family or for self or for God & these just examples & not all things Sun Dar is but gives an idea okay. For family stuffs can be for family by blood or family by bai shi or both where hand is passed only within blood & what Sun Dar is in this way is a way of keeping contact with those no longer of this life for consult. By blood it is ancestors & this tied to practice of keeping the body bones placed a special way in urn & this not like honoring but actual speaking with those family people not here any more but not like a phone call either as answers come in many forms not always sounds or words. By bai shi Sun Dar says certain things or parts of past Masters still survive this world but not known to this world by most peoples & most say Jo-si to name these things or spirit elements are good words for it too. Purpose of Sun Dar for blood & bai shi are different as by blood mostly for guidance & for bai shi for decisions so in one you ask for possibilties & in the other you ask for single answer a decision. When before the Spri it is different for both stuffs as for blood what is said is listing of family members in order by name known within family & not common name so that they know you speak to them as one of them & speak to them alone. For bai shi it is oaths known only to those all the way inside the door & you say yourself by your name known only by those in your Pai so that Jo-si know you not just from oaths but by name still said by those still living. What I have seen of this thing is that for blood answers come as familiar words from one known in the past as real person that might be spoken aloud or just come into the mind & for bai shi it often times not words but things that happen as Jo-si do something to make the will of those known through stories not as real people known to you & usually something that can't be denied or ignored & often times by things seen that can't be there but are. So I start this thing off right & let's see who really knows & who just stupid troll playing at knowing & keys to answer is what must be done for Sun Dar under bai shi as oaths being said as this thing is pretty much the same for different hands I see do this thing & what way do Jo-si mostly show selves to be known as such before saying decision.

cutter

02-12-2003, 06:29 PM

What is "Spri"?

Cody

02-12-2003, 06:51 PM

Over the past couple of days, I reconsidered and retraced my steps in CMA. I remember where it began. The exact moment. And again, a different way. And again. I felt like I had no place. I still do.

The beginning. Cheng Man-Ching (a Yang style T'ai Chi master) wrote something to the effect that -- chi was too slow, to use spirit. I have the exact quote somewhere, if you want it.
Takuan Soho (Zen master) spoke of no-mind and focus.
I used both in my practice. That practice had already taken a different turn. That's why I did this reading. I began a journey Within.
What I have written is a result of experience. trying to figure out what had happened over a period of years. and there was change.

The kinds of explanations given for what occurs in spiritual martial arts (or anything) have a lot to do with one's expectations and beliefs. DT, this is the framework -- expectations and beliefs. People can disagree as to the framework.
They often describe what happens to them in terms of what they have been taught. The kind of clarity which is independent of these is relatively impossible, but that is what I aim for.
One needs to respect that a person might see something differently. We all trip sometimes. I know I have.

I have realized over the last couple of days that the spiritual fighting energy and knowledge of a passed warrior could conceivably be passed on to disciples. that process would be a complicated one, involving both physical and mental components. It's serious. It's dangerous. That might be what you mean that Sun Dar has many parts.

My personal feeling. it's not part of my belief that the actual current spirit of someone who has passed enters when summoned. That's my opinion. I do believe we have spirits which survive this plane. But, I don't see them coming back in such a fashion. I'm not saying this is impossible, but I don't see it.
However, I am beginning to see how transference of energy and information can happen -- between living beings, and thereby transfer spirit (of a passed person). part of this spirit had been made part of one living person before the death of the warrior. It's passed on over time to someone else, in a very complex sequence. This is my speculation.

Hence, a type of transmission, in which a passed warrior can emerge suddenly within another human being. It makes my eyes widen and my heart tremble to regard it within the context presented in this thread. I know for myself, I would be unwilling to give up my spirit in the sense of total possession. A joining is one thing, but this sort of total possession is not something I would agree to. I must keep my own Intent. Maybe there is a right way of approach which doesn't demand the kind of domination which seems part of the package.

Okay. If one studies so-called hard energy KF, but is not taught soft energy. then, the person will eventual destroy his body. If one is taught exclusively to be soft, there will not be the hard core. It's b*llsh*t teaching to do this. Hence, if there is a good aspect of the Spiritual Kung Fu, there will need to be introduction, training, and maintenance of one's own spirit while being joined. Otherwise, there appears to be something not good.

To dabble in calling on spirits is dangerous. I also say that what comes might not be what was summoned. One opens the door.
If one's spirit is not self-contained, or untrained, then all can be lost to madness.
If the mind has not been trained to know itself and to recognize "Other", even if you can't identify it, the mind can lose itself.
But, even if the mind does lapse, one's spirit can hold, if it refuses to say "Yes." Even with that, destruction can occur.

There is a great deal that goes on in martial arts on the spiritual level which cannot conform to rules of evidence. Prove it? I agree that it is hard to see or experience things that others don't. One becomes on the fringe. Some might start to see something, but then it is as if a veil comes over their mind. they suddenly say it's their imagination. There is sudden revelation which can blind, And the curtain, which can bend minds into not seeing past the doubt, and then to deny the doubt to forget. hard to know what the right track is.

I thank you for taking the time to expand on this topic. When I have spoken of spiritual Kung Fu, it has not generally meant anything other than manifesting my own spirit and its power in the physical world. I now realize that other things have and can occur as well. At some point, I think it's part of the same discipline. But, whether that would be Sun Dar is something I don't know. Can you tell me? You have been of help. Thank you.

Cody

P.S.: It took me a long time to write this. When it was posted, I noticed the discussion had progressed. I'm not addressing your last post in this one.

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
EJ I say it to turd which I named you & you should know this thing if you what you say you are & if I had picture of you I burn it then put the ashes in can & pi$$ on it then throw whole mess into the street so maybe you know it this way okay & not insult but said as fact that it is.

What you have just said made as much sense as the above earlier statement. You have mixed fact with fiction, insult with desire, "Sun Dar" - fighting with the help of the spirits, with "Sun Bok" - divination or guidance with the help of the spirits.

"Sun" or Shen in Pinyin is spirit, "Dar" or Da is to fight and to defeat your enemy, so "Sun Dar" is to call on the spirits to help you to achieve your goal. There are different spirits we can call upon and there are many ways we can use these spirits to fight for us. But because spirits don't have a physical form, we are fighting in formlessness and this is where it gets really tricky. Often we don't see the results straight away and it is not physically obvious but it nevertheless affects our life in a measurable way.

It is not about telling the future or asking for guidance as in "Sun Bok" or "Shen Bu" in Pinyin (Divination with Spirit), it is about how to manipulate the formless Qi in the Yin world to affect us physically in the Yang world. How we do this depends on the school we are initiated into. "Mao Shan Pai" is one of the more well known schools and "Ng Dow Pai" or the Five Grains School is another.

Obviously I am disagreeing with you, DT, so if you are to debate me, please keep the insults to a minimum; play the ball and not the player. Be true to your words, OK? Maybe I have misunderstood you (your writing is not the easiest to understand), feel free to clarify or elaborate.

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Cody
However, I am beginning to see how transference of energy and information can happen -- between living beings, and thereby transfer spirit (of a passed person). part of this spirit had been made part of one living person before the death of the warrior. It's passed on over time to someone else, in a very complex sequence. This is my speculation.

Cody,

Your speculation is in fact the belief system underpinning the majority of the Shen Da schools. The Chinese distinguished the Qi of the Yin world into "Shen" and "Gui" or Spirit and Ghost. Shen is positive Yin Qi whereas Gui is negative Yin Qi. Knowing the difference between Shen and Gui can lead to courage or fear; sanity or madness and victory or defeat.

Again, knowing what is Good and what is Bad or what is Essential and what is Superficial is the key to success.

JAZA

02-12-2003, 08:58 PM

So in a miscelaneuos way, this is like Lucas force in the Return of the Jedi or the ils Tsui Hark.
I haven't experience with spiritual kung fu, but with the insights posted here I guess it's very similar to camdomble rituals in Brazil or Cuba. I remember that there is a psychiatrist or psychological typification for this behaviour in the occidental framework.

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 10:05 PM

Yes JAZA!

May the Force be with you! :)

If there is a Yang Force (Physical Kung Fu), then there is also a complementary Yin Force (Spiritual Kung Fu) within us and our art. We don't understand these things well enough so we dismissed them as superstitions.

The real problem is a lot of Shen Da we see these days used the Ghost rather the Spirit, so they created fear, madness and defeat in the practitioners.

For safety sake, it is better we don't temper with Spiritual Kung Fu until we know the true meaning of the Spirit.

Where do we start? From the Body - the Temple of our Spirit, of course. A healthy body has a better chance of understanding the Spirit than an unhealthy one.

So back to Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui, my brother! :D

extrajoseph

02-12-2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by BatesMotel
I know my class was so good last week that I felt like I had an "religious experience"!

Yes, my Fut was so good last night I felt I died a little death. :D

extrajoseph

02-13-2003, 12:20 AM

A Ghost is the disembodied shadow of dead person whist a Spirit is the vital principle animating a living being.

Take my old Shen Da teacher for example; he carried his Sifu’s ash all the time thinking that a dead person can make him invincible. One day he forgot the ash and was nearly defeated (he told us so)!

If he had transformed the fighting Spirit of his Sifu into his own then there is no need to depend on a handful of ash to win. He would have gained the Spirit of his Sifu (Shen Qi) and not just his Ghost (Gui Qi).

A lot of low-level Shen Da depended on rituals, incantations and spells to work; they represented the Ghost of the past and not the Spirit of its tradition. Using the Gui can lead to mimicry and dependence while using the Shen is freedom of movements with a soul.

A Gui or Ghost copies the shadow of the past whist a Shen or Spirit uses the Jing (the Essence) of the past to drive the present. That is the difference.

Diamond Talons

02-13-2003, 07:32 AM

Okay no answers to the marks I left that tell whether a person knows this stuffs or just a book person & mouth boxer so I go to next thing & mostly this thread was supposed to be about okay. Sun Dar for fighting is most of times not understood right & mostly said way that confuse the mind & not clear it at all & when I say fighting a person should ask who am I fighting another person or peoples or myself & this where Sun Dar splits again. Some say fighting against others so Sun Dar used to do something to them & this is stuffs I don't believe or think right as if it was right I would be dead long ago as two high ranking & much respected Sun Dar guys use their stuffs to kill me years ago & I still alive which pi$s them off no doubts. So Sun Dar just for me not about fighting others but about the war with self & this hardest fight of all as self knows the self & knows where strong & where weak so it's best foe of all for each person & when I say fighting with self I don't mean punch youselve in the mouth hard & you win but I mean to make strong that which is weak & make soft that is hard or hard that which soft as needed in that moment not forever. This don't mean Sun Dar for self as in seeking real skill with the hand isn't dangerous & doesn't have a side without light from which there is no escape as it sure as hell does have some very bad stuffs known to it this way & I give example as it say this thing better than my craps writing. I don't say his hand as it don't matter & just start politics craps but I say his clan have a connection to snake that goes way way back in time & he had dammed good hands but never happy about his skill & his spirit was very very uneasy with life. So he tells me he going home & learn Sun Dar & I tell him he not be happy that way either but he don't listen & he goes away for some years with never word to anyone about where or what he just disappear kind of & one day he just shows up at my home looking very good & healthy & most calm I ever seen him. We talk & he says he that way for fear of what happens when he not calm & relaxed & I ask him what's meant by this so he stands up & rolls up his sleeves & puts out his hands & gets an angry look on his face & I watch as something comes down whole way of both forarms top & bottom & fills his arms & coils & twist & I say what the hell is that but he can't say one word just stands there. A bit of time later his face go calm again & what in his arms goes back up & disappears & he sits down & cries & this is what he says to me. He says he choose snake as his helper even though his Sun Dar teacher say taking a helper doesn't mean taking & not giving as what is given in a measure also taken in a like measure but he don't listen & do it. He had to go into village a ways from his teachers house to buy food stuffs every now & then & he go there as always & get attacked on way back carrying food stuffs by some guys & he can't say how or what happened as only thing he remember is seeing guys rush him & he then find himself standing with guys on ground with a couple dead & his hands all blood with his arms coiling & twisting under the skin & couldn't stop it. He say he ran not walk back to his teachers house with no food or anything & showed his teacher his arms & his teacher just laugh & tell him you wanted it you got it and as much it give to you it take from you & he say he don't want it no more & his teacher just laugh some more & tell him too bad as once this gift given it can't be given back & gift not free but comes with price & he was warned but didn't listen & he choose snake knowing his family with snake many years so he must know snakes & snakes kill to eat. This not any where like all of Sun Dar but example I know with my own eyes of side with no light & I say this about a helper is that helper not like friend or ally & can't be tasked but only cooperates according to nature of helper & by nature I mean how it is known to man & helper to one helped not like servant to Master or even person who works & guy who hires okay.

extrajoseph

02-13-2003, 10:10 AM

When “a Ghost enters the body”, the Ghost is a separate entity that temporarily takes control of your body with you in a state of trance. You are not conscious of your own actions and you are at the mercy of the Ghost.

When “a Spirit enters the body”, the Spirit is an integral part of yourself, you are not in a trance but in a state of intense and heightened awareness. You are conscious and in full control of your own actions.

Being “possessed” by a Ghost is very different to being “enpowered” by a Spirit. You have to experience both to understand the full "flavour" of Shen Da.

Diamond Talons

02-13-2003, 10:56 AM

No answers yet from any one who knows this thing for real & not out of books so I say something about Sun Dar & fighting & the way of light which just for me is the best way to go & in the measure given so a measure is demanded & I say demand & not taken as there's a difference. I don't say way to do this I just say about my knowing this thing by doing it & as I was taught so this isn't a how to do it posts & none I post say how to as this something that must be done person to person as words just confuse & read other posts on this thing by guy who knows nothing but book stuffs to see what I mean on this okay. In Sun Dar of the self & for skill in the hand the good way is to make agreement & not enter bargain with things not of this world as they not tied to ways of this world but can be brought to this world at a costs & for some ways the cost is taken & in some other ways the cost is demanded & demand means something must be done in return. In the way I say this thing the demand cost of the same nature & measure of the thing asked for & I use this as example again to make more clear than my craps writings. My hand has a move that is used for tearing muscles or breaking neck & it doesn't matter move at all but this just how I know this thing okay. So young guys once ask me how do I think this move will works for real so I show them something I do by Sun Dar. I got a wood basket thing full of old horse shoes & they different sizes but all made of iron so I drag it out & have one of the guys grab any one he wants & stands a distance away from me & tosses it to me which I catch & then make the move with one hand on each side of the iron shoe. I do this more than a few times so they see it for real & sometimes the shoe break apart & sometimes just bends. I couldn't do this even as young man before I do Sun Dar for this thing & I say I know this is fact of Sun Dar as some of these young guys gots arms dammed near as big muscle as my legs but they couldn't do it no matter how many times they try & I not young man at all any more. I won't say what demand was but I do say that I ask for this thing by Sun Dar with agreement that I not do it on any one that's not a bad guy trying to harm or kill me or those who don't deserve harming or killing so you know I ask for right reasons or way of light as to protect & not seek to harm just to harm or kill just to kill & from moment of asking by Sun Dar for this thing I do it ever since as I say for proofs of this move as I always test the hand even when something done through Sun Dar & not sweat over much time okay.

extrajoseph

02-13-2003, 03:04 PM

Many low-level Shen Da schools used tricks and magic to impress potential new members. They have demonstrations of their students being knocked down by their Master at a distance or students rushed to attack their Master and fell back or struck down by an invisible force before they get within a certain distance. They bend iron bars, smashed large slabs of stones, being ran over by a large truck, walk on hot coal, etc. etc.

Many of the basic training methods are just conquering fear with mind over matter. We used to practice walking over sharp blades on the ground and chopping our body with a large Chinese chopper after we “invited” our master into our body. The propaganda (brain washing really) is that he will protect us from any harm; therefore we will be eternally grateful and depended on him for survival and well being. In fact anyone can do these tricks with some training and know-how.

I remembered part of the initiation ceremony was that we had to eat a small piece of pork, which is his body, if we try to leave without his permission, the pork will rot inside of us and make us sick and die. The one to ensure our loyalty was a bit cruel, we had to stamp on a live chicken and the symbolism was that we would be treated the same way if we betray our Master and our secrets.

My Shen Da teacher was a scary and charismatic character, even though I was a "teacher's pet" I had to leave after a while, otherwise I would have gone over the other side. But I still have fond memory of him, I was barely 20 and in complete awe of the guy, he use to do crazy things to impress us and in a way to hold our attention and loyalty.

I remembered one day we were having dinner, he got up from the table and took down an electric light bulb and started to break it up into small pieces and chewed them in his mouth. He said to us with a wink in his eyes and lightly tabbed his pocket (where he kept his sifu's ash), when you have your sifu with you, nothing is impossible! His favourite trick was to stop time and use his body like a piece of wire to light up a globe connected to the power socket. When he goes into a trance, it is another story!

They were wonderful days, but years later when I met him again, he looked so ordinary and he had marriage problems like the rest of us, I wonder where the "magic" has gone.

Diamond Talons

02-13-2003, 04:20 PM

My posts have been just a little bit of what Sun Dar is so I hope that now peoples have some idea that Sun Dar not just some one thing or things like book knowing peoples like to say or tricks that street magic peoples do for money but a way to many ends.
That I post this stuffs is proofs that Sun Dar that supposed to do something to a person against their will like book boy little EJ tried to do shows that Sun Dar not much about doing to others but about doing for self or to self & more a way of changing or going past what some say are limits of human. I say it's a way to improve certain things be they good or bad things & people free to choose as they want but point is that all things have cost & nothing free in this world or other worlds & even craps Sun Dar like book boy little EJ comes with price as just with others who have willed me dead with their stupid fake stuffs while I still live they pay the price of being known & shown as fools & frauds. The scales are always balanced or seeking balance.

extrajoseph

02-13-2003, 04:52 PM

I have not "willed you dead", why would I do this when I hardly know you? Nor have others in your life from what you said, sure you made them mad but that was all. In case you want to know, your guilt is doing it because you know deep down what is good and what is bad behaviour. I have nothing but good will towards you and it is a good advice from you to seek some balance in our life.

Peace to you my brother and I say it with sincerity.

JAZA

02-13-2003, 05:18 PM

"They bend iron bars, smashed large slabs of stones, being ran over by a large truck, walk on hot coal"
I know a master from Singapore that did that when visited my country, but he was selling energy management.:)

extrajoseph

02-13-2003, 07:58 PM

Jaza,

I know how to stop a clock with my qi, do you think I can sell time management with that? :D

Eddie

02-14-2003, 12:19 AM

Sisuk joseph,
Thanks for the great post. I find these things very interesting. If I could ask you, in your own opinion, how much of what you saw do you think were real, and how much had to do with trickery. The whole concept seem to rely allot on basic psychology. Seems like the people believe they have the power of their sifu in them, so that’s why they can do all these things. I want to share an example with you. My family owns a contract cleaning company. One day the supervisor called me and asked me to come help. One of the staff members (a grown Sotho man of almost 30) were getting fits, he was foaming from his mouth, and even spoke like a spirit. All the staff members believed that someone put a spell on him. The day before, the man had a slight headache and some basic bad luck, so when he went to the sangoma (witch doctor), he told him that he had two ghosts on his back (basically means he was possessed). The sangoma told him that he will exercise the ghosts if the man pays him R4800 (bout $480). This man’s monthly income is R1100.00.

I had a bottle with some Chinese markings on (actually it only said toh tong wan – head ache medicine), but inside were some ephedrine which I used for training while I was under some other medication. I told the worker that this is some special medicine from China, and that it was given to me by a Chinese witch doctor (not that there is such a thing – but he didn’t know). I explained to him that after he takes the medicine, he will feel some tingling feeling in his head. If he did feel it, he must know that the ghosts were going out. To cut a long story short, it wasn’t 45 minutes, when the ghosts actually left his body. He felt the tingling in his head, and he had renewed energy (albeit fake energy from the ephedrine). I exercised the ghosts for him, and it didn’t cost him a cent. He has been ghost/demon free ever since.

What I’m trying to say, is that your mind is very powerful. If you want to believe in something, you will. Would this shen da not fall into some category such as this? I’m not questioning the fact that Demonic Possessions and that sort of thing does not exist.

BTW – Apart from bending metal bars, braking bricks and all the other tricks, I can also set paper alight with my chi. There is a set of books out by Leung Ting called Skills of the Vagabond / Behind the Incredible which deals with this.
Thanks for a nice and informing post. I still want to ‘pick you brains’ about the CLF 6 Magic skills stuff if you don’t mind. Maybe you could start another thread for that?

e

extrajoseph

02-14-2003, 04:00 AM

Hi Eddie,

Sad to say, but everything I saw up to date has to do with trickery of some sort. Of course when I was young I had no idea how they were done, but after many years of study I can do most of the tricks and if not, at least I know how they can be done.

The amazing story you told confirmed the power of belief and what it can do. There is a definite relationship between the body and the mind and Shen Da, like faith healing and voodoo magic, taps into this potential. The belief system may be different and the aim may vary but the mechanism is much the same.

Having said that, I still try to keep an open mind and believe in miracles, life sure is interesting and there is so much to discover.

I don’t know much about CLF Luk Yum Shut; it is something you have to take up with clfma.com.

Thank you for sharing, I really enjoyed reading your experience and I enjoyed this thread as well, pity about the insults and the in-fighting.

Diamond Talons

02-14-2003, 04:46 AM

Eddie you nothing more than another form of mouth boxer book boy little EJ so give up tries at fooling peoples as it seen before & what your Sisuk posts shows he & you just same really just SUKS with no Si & maybe Sun Dar mess up your mind book boy little EJ as you try this craps on CLF thread so it won't work here you lying running dog coward. Some mo duk by you in many forms & all show you totally fraud nothing real just books stuffs so you Children keep posting as if you save book boy little EJ from being shown what he is a fraud & a fool now make up some more peoples you can be to post your own glory SUK EJ & maybe get some students who believe your craps to post like you too okay.

JAZA

02-14-2003, 08:40 PM

Aren't you possessed DT?

Diamond Talons

02-15-2003, 04:59 AM

JAZA of course I'm possessed I am possessed of all things known to be a man & question for you JAZA is are you real or are you just another yet make up person of book boy little EJ who sure works hard to puff himselve up & make it look like he never wrong or apologize for his craps & only God always right JAZA not man or for book boy little EJ I say chattering monkey.

fiercest tiger

02-15-2003, 05:06 PM

That was a freaky story mate! Is this guy still alive? Have you felt his hands?

regards
FT:)

extrajoseph

02-15-2003, 05:51 PM

LOL... DT you are possessed..... with me! :D

extrajoseph

02-15-2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
That was a freaky story mate! Is this guy still alive? Have you felt his hands?

regards
FT:)

This guy in DT's story, he is still alive and lives in Sydney. They called him Serpent. ;) :D

JAZA

02-15-2003, 06:30 PM

DT, I'm just this era avatar of Shiva.

Diamond Talons

02-15-2003, 08:21 PM

FT yes he's still very much alive & very very calm too no doubts & I know his hands as training Brother years ago but he doesn't cross hands with any one no more as he's screwed with what he wanted he got & now he's stuck for this life with it. His teacher don't screw him all the way & gave him sets of Chi Kung to do all yin stuffs that calms his mind & keeps his body in good shape so he's okay I think & at his age fighting with guys not really going to happen if he stays away from such stuffs okay. He's dammed lucky from what I see of this stuffs as his mind is strong so he knows this thing is with him but he can keep it in chains by his mind as when calm it can't feed. I know a couple of guys who make a deal kind of like his & they're so messed up in the mind that every one stays the hell away from them & won't even talk to them even though they're friends from time they were Children & that's a sad thing for guys up in the years I think as friends about all we got since family grown. JAZA your too smart for me I don't know what you say & it's okay so don't try to explain to stupid guy like me & EJ a good guy to see on forum as I was worried all the stupid peoples troll SPM & with EJ I see even a really big hand like CLF has such guys in posting stuffs so it's good. If you are him JAZA you can see I'm still alive & Sun Dar craps against peoples doesn't work as EJ still alive too & I was serious about what I did before Spri & toilet about him & we all see nothing happens but with self doing to the self it's different no doubts & that was really what I was trying to say about Sun Dar as what is given or gained is taken or demanded in same measure with one way being dangerous & the other being the way of light okay.

extrajoseph

02-15-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
...that was really what I was trying to say about Sun Dar as what is given or gained is taken or demanded in same measure with one way being dangerous & the other being the way of light okay.

DT,

So you think Sun Dar is about natural justice - what is given is balanced by what is taken, what is gained is balanced by what is demanded.

With all the insults you have given me, what do you think is taken from you?

With all the pleasure you gained at my expense, what do you think is demanded of you in return?

What goes around comes around, are you walking the way of the light or just playing with danger?

SevenStar

02-15-2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
SETANSI I tell you it's dangerous stuffs to mess with & more peoples come out of it with screwed up mind & no more power but crazy as hell no doubts & guy Lam Wing Fay left whole of Sun Dar to crazy as hell & peoples who know him his whole life & he's an old guy don't even speak to him any more as he's very very crazy. I look at this thing for years & now think about risk of being crazy to rewards possible as none can say how Jo-si look at this stuffs & just for me it's not worth the risk at all but that's just for me & opinion & not fact.

Sounds like some of the golden bell training I've heard about.

Diamond Talons

02-16-2003, 06:11 AM

7Star could be as holding of breath while making a lot power through moves can hurt the body no doubts as I see guys get bloody eyes & noses from some of these things & some pi$s blood so that can't be good. Lots of things from the old times should stay there as maybe it was the best way to do it then but things change & we learn as people so all things change or should I think. Some things I do in my hand different than older ways as better ways to get some of this stuffs learned from change so why keep doing it the same way when better way known & just for me with heavy kung stuffs if its faster with same result then its better. People that talk about taking years & years & years to be able to use their hand right are doing it wrong I think as if real killing hand then it should be able to be used in a couple of years. Mastery is a life time path to walk but using here & now with some decent skill should be a couple of years no more or else the hand is just craps & this is just for me okay. Some body shield ways use striking of body to get it used to being hit & this is okay I think so long as power of strike increased slowly to allow the body to really get used to it & not just survive strike but be able to take it & ignore it & this isn't magic as American football players & rugby players & boxers do it all the time. I say to go slow on some of this stuffs as the body will spoil just like vegetables if pushed too fast on the stuffs but gets very hard & tuff with nothing that shows on the outside if done right.