Peace went out the door on 9/11 [Archive]

ricksitterly

02-07-2003, 11:48 PM

tnwingtsun

that was just so clearly stated (and spelled) that it took my breath away. luckily i can still type :)

resisting the urge to poke fun at your apparent lack of grammatical skill, i will try to focus on your point, which is....
oh sh!t nevermind.

"We need your help but can live or die without it,noe where does that put you?"

just what the hel! does that mean anyway?
what is your point here, other than to stir up controversy. i dont think that every young man in this country would be most beneficial to us by taking up arms and being possibly vaporized in what could be the first real nuclear war. you forget that the protestors serve a purpose as well... which is ultimately to help save the lives of those who ARe willing to put their life on the line for the U.S. , by perhaps preventing a war from happening at all. I am one of those people, as I am a soldier, and come April 15th, I will be put on active duty in Texas. My job does not involve blasting away at Iraqi's, but more on the technical end (working on radar systems). Am I "fighting", not necessarily, but I feel that I am making a contribution.

Secondly, we are facing war with IRAQ, not China. Our military has more than enough people to fight a war against a sh!tty little country like Iraq (and North Korea for that matter). So how much more support do we need? Those in power don't seem to care if Americans are supportive of the war or not.

Ironically, out of all the country's who may or may not have weapons of mass destruction, surely the US is possibly the most potentially destructive.

shaolin kungfu

02-08-2003, 01:07 AM

I know I said it on the other thread about this, but since there are two, I might as well say it again.

What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? The hijackers came from saudi arabia and were trained in afghanistan. I'm not seeing the connection, someone want to help me out?

dezhen2001

02-08-2003, 02:43 AM

theres evidence to suggest some people from al-qaeda, high in the ranks have been to iraq. even possibly that u guessed it - another extreme militant group in iraq is connected to OBL.

isnt that evidence enough?

dawood

Kristoffer

02-08-2003, 05:35 AM

So where is that evidence? Can you show us?

Saddam and Al-qaida are enemies, they don't work togheter. Fight against terrorism is dead, fight for oil has just begun.

Kristoffer

02-08-2003, 05:38 AM

:rolleyes:

dezhen2001

02-08-2003, 05:54 AM

Kristoffer: i was meaning "evidence"... i cant really see it either regardless of what they say... i know people at my mosque form iraq, saudi and afghanistan... i cant see it at all. Of course theres also the connection OBL and Saddam have with the usa before they went "wrong", so im really not sure about any of this situation.

i just know the world is a screwed up place and its only getting worse.

dawood

Black Jack

02-08-2003, 10:12 AM

Enough is enough. I see it so much on these web forums that I actually am surprised this leftist garbage still makes me sick to my stomach.

Some of you bedwetters are so hot for teacher to hate America and its role in the world that you will always grumble, whine, ***** and moan on "any" topic of conversation where the good old USA name is a part of its structure. Its the sad liberal fact of life.

For those that might want to take there thumbs out of there asses for a second or two you might notice that the free world is not at war with just al-Qaeda. Were at war with a large Islamo-Fascist movement that draws its funds and political support from all over the Islamic world. Iraq is a clearly defined enemy, demonstrated once again by Colin Powell at the UN world broadcast yesterday, a broadcast which showcased more proof on proof of why we should go to war with Iraq, a war that needed to be taken care of "yesterday."

The evidence shows that Saddam Hussen and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce weapons of mass destruction, material presented from U.S. and foreign sources, intercepted telephone conversations and high resolution satellite photos, shows this in clear detail. You see photo evidence of mobile biological weapon production faclities, fighter jets and UAV's modified to spray chemical and biological agents over a battlefield, the forward knowledge of UN inspectors arrival at known weapon production and storage facilities, and the ackowledged removal of stated illegal weapons and ammo. Estimates show that Irag has between 100 and 500 tons of stockpiled chemical weapons. They also have 2 or 3 components needed to build a nuclear weapon, so determined is Saddam that he made repeated attempts to acquire specification alumminum tubes from 11 different countries, even after inspections resumed!

The connection between the terrorist organization and Irag is also clear, from the late 1990's to 2001, the Iraqi embassy in Pakistan played the role of liaison to the al Qaeda organization, Iraq now also harbors Abud Musab al-Zarqau, the head of a terrorist network and a close friend and collaburater of Osama bin Landen. He is in breech of the UN resolution 1441, by the way what a piece of crap, paper tiger organization that is, hope it goes the way of the ill-fated league of nations. Invading and rebuilding Irag will not only free the Iragi people from a madman, it will also make the rest of the middle east understand the consequences they face if they continue to oppress their own people and export terrorism, let them understand we mean business.

rogue

02-08-2003, 10:15 AM

Marky.
Iraq wants the sanctions to be lifted more than anything.
N. Korea wants foreign aid, their promised reactors to be build (now 4 yrs behind deadline) and a non-aggression pact with the USA.
In short BOTH want to do their own thing alone, without the USA looking over their shoulder and telling them what they cn and can't do.
Both are desperate and haven't got much faith in the "good will" of the USA.
For BOTH taking any actions against the USA would be suicidal and they KNOW it. It is all saber rattling to get what they desire.
No in short what you have are two despots wanting to be able to fuque their people over, kill them, starve them and torture them without anybody bothering them. As far as "good will" both dictators have broken the agreements they made with the U.N. a long time ago and the US fianally has someone in the White House that takes those agreements seriously.

Both are desperate because the US fianally has someone in the White House that takes those agreements seriously.

The reason their saber rattling is backfiring is because the US fianally has someone in the White House that takes the rattling of sabres seriously.

rogue

02-08-2003, 10:19 AM

Black Jack, move those dates up to 1994 when in Sudan bin Laden personally met with Faruq al-Hijazi who was director if Iraqi Intelligence Department.

GLW

02-08-2003, 10:23 AM

A BIG Misinterpretation:

Being against a war that your government seems bent on having - all for the imperial power of control of oil or for ANY other reason

does NOT equate to not supporting the men and women who are in the military.

In fact, if the LAST big war is any indication, the great and powerful OZ (I meant government) sent soldiers to fight and die...and come back wounded mentally and physically...and then turns around when it is not economically viable or politically hurtful and cuts services to those people.

To see how the government supports its troops, look at how it treats its veterans and those irreparably damaged by serving.

The track record is pretty shabby.

On a different note:

One of the things that makes for a good soldier is a willingness to NOT question and simply follow the orders of their superior officers.

One of the things that makes for a good citizen in a democracy is a willingness to question everything and make up one's own mind about what and how their elected officials and supperiors are doing.

So...

Is there not a major disconnect between what is required of a good soldier and a good citizen?

GLW

02-08-2003, 10:29 AM

Actually that is NOT eidence enough.

Islamic fundamentalis is crime punishable by death in Iraq. Saddam Hussein is on the short list of hated people for the number he has executed for Al-Qaeda.

The connection of Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden to the Saudi's is known and still exists. So..why don't we take them to task?

Just curious...

rogue

02-08-2003, 10:30 AM

Naturally, Europe after WW II was more concerned with rebulding their lifes and economy infrastructures.
Can't do both at the same time, now can you??

Multiple Choice:
And the reason Europe had to rebuild was because...

A) They were attacked by the blood thirsty Canadians.

B) They were attacked by the military/industrial complex of the Samoans.

C) Europe was over run by the expantionists Andorran Empire.

D) Most of Europe wasn't prepared for war and was overrun by another European nation with expantionists ideals and a formable military/industrial complex.

rogue

02-08-2003, 10:38 AM

So there is an al-Qaeda / Iraq link. Good, let the bombings begin.

JusticeZero

02-08-2003, 10:50 AM

I think the connection was: "Okay, those **** terrorists scattered everywhere.. there's a couple in Iraq.. wonder what ol' Saddam is up to, maybe I can find those **** terrorists here... *looks around* Holy @&#$*!! Weren't you supposed to be getting rid of that stuff? Duuude, didn't we tell you we were going to kick your ass if you didn't get rid of that stuff 13 times already? And what is it with that 'Al-Quaida Rocks' T-shirt? OK, we're giving you one last chance before we come in there and beat you so hard your cousins are going to be black and blue.."

Laughing Cow

02-08-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by rogue

Multiple Choice:
And the reason Europe had to rebuild was because...

A) They were attacked by the blood thirsty Canadians.

B) They were attacked by the military/industrial complex of the Samoans.

C) Europe was over run by the expantionists Andorran Empire.

D) Most of Europe wasn't prepared for war and was overrun by another European nation with expantionists ideals and a formable military/industrial complex.

I see some of the Posters here take a VERY simplistic view when looking at History and thus cannot objectively see History for what it really is.

History doesn't happen in the Black & White easy to understand lines that History books represent.

History can't be understood by reading a Book & learning a few facts & dates but needs to be researched, cross-referenced and so on.

There is a lot more info out that than the History Books look at, actually most history books are a goverments or similar institutions idea of what their "subjects"(citizens) should know.

Read History Books from different countries and you will get as many variations as countries.

rogue

02-08-2003, 04:54 PM

So Europe wasn't taken over by one defeated and humiliated European country that rearmed itself while the rest of the continent slept? My mistake.:p

Matt Irvin

02-08-2003, 05:25 PM

Tvebak: We didn't choose this insane man for president. He LOST the popular vote. But we have this institution nobody really understands called the "electoral college" that is involved in the election process. There was a huge election botching that took place in Florida, and instead of being fair and recounting all of the votes, the Republican-dominated Supreme Court voted to stop the recount, which resulted in Bush being elected. So for those of you following along closely, the Supreme Court elected the president, not the american people. We're sorry. Really. We promise never to do it again. Well, that is if we're still allowed to vote the next time presidential elections roll around. If John Ashcroft has anything to say about it, I'm sure we'll have a dictator for life, then we won't have to worry about pesky voting issues anymore.

Marky

02-08-2003, 05:48 PM

Hi Matt,

The fact that you have the PRIVILEGE to say all those things about your own government without fear proves how good it is. "Government is the greatest master, and has always treated its slaves well."

rogue

02-08-2003, 06:21 PM

Matt Irvin, give me 50 push ups for being a revisionist, uninformed, being a Democrat, a liberal or stupid. Or any number of the above. Also please take a civics course and learn how the US Gov't is set up to work.

Matt Irvin

02-08-2003, 09:29 PM

lol :p

Revisionist? So, I must have "revised" the popular vote count, and revised the 539,000 plus more votes that Gore got than Bush. I must have "revised" the people who were removed from the voter rolls in Florida for having similar names to convicted felons--and that most of them were black democrats. I must have revised the findings of the New York times that documented hundreds of votes that violated Florida voting laws and yet were still counted in favor of Bush. I must have revised... well, you get the point. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine with me, but that's no cause for being an as*hole. You could try backing up your insults with actual information, but I suppose that's too much to expect. :rolleyes:

Democrat? Nope. Liberal? By whose definition? Stupid? Sometimes. Gore-supporter? Definitely not. I sentence you to learning researching what you're talking about before you open your mouth, and taking as many history classes as you possibly can. Toodles.

And marky, I can say all those things about my government because they know it doesn't matter. If over a hundred thousand people can hit the streets in a war protest in San Francisco and it hardly gets any media attention, the ramblings of a martial arts forum poster aren't exactly going to throw the gov't's plans into disarray. God bless Amerikkka.

Laughing Cow

02-08-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by rogue
So Europe wasn't taken over by one defeated and humiliated European country that rearmed itself while the rest of the continent slept? My mistake.:p

I see.

What I am saying the improtant bit is not what happened but [B}WHY[/B] things happened, and THAT you can't get from History Books alone.

It is easy to take certain facts out of context and lay the blame on it.
Seems like there are lots of people good at it. Some Leaders names come to mind.

But since you re so good at historical facts, answer me a few questions:

1.) Why did America get involved in a Civil War on the other side of the globe and which war was it?

2.) What is the real reason for America to join WW II.

3.) Which nations troop landed on the wrong Beach during D-Day and WHY.

4.) How does the 1994 USA/N. Korea conflict and the 2002 USA/N. Korea conflict differ?

Don't worry I won't quiz you about European or Asian History as you have already failed that one.

dnc101

02-08-2003, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Matt Irvin
Tvebak: We didn't choose this insane man for president. He LOST the popular vote. But we have this institution nobody really understands called the "electoral college" that is involved in the election process.

I wouldn't say nobody understands the Electoral College, but you apparently don't. So I'll try to explain. It is one of the checks and ballances put in place by our farsighted founders. Its purpose is to ensure that all states have a say in the electing of our prsident. If not for the EC, the major population centers in New York and California would pretty much dominate politics in this country today. In fact, the term on Capital Hill for everything between those two states is 'flyover country'. At the time our Constitution was being written and ratified one of the hottest topics was states rights. The EC was one way to help ensure that all states had a say in government. It still works.

By the way, we are not a democracy. A democracy is nothing more than a dictatorship of the majority. We are a Representative Republic, with laws meant to ensure the rights of the individual above all. But laws don't work when we don't understand them, or the system of government in which they are meant to operate.

Matt Irvin

02-08-2003, 11:31 PM

I know how the electoral college works, as do I know the difference between a democracy and a representative republic. It was a joke. Ha ha? Sheesh. I can be subjected to arrogance and insults just about anywhere, so I'll leave this to the rest of you.

Kristoffer

02-09-2003, 10:23 AM

yeah your right Rogue let's bomb em! yeeeah I'll fetch ma rifle n you go get your mama n her glock, it's KILLING TIME!! **** do we care bomb those sand people ****ers they aint worth ****. Let's support our power hungry leaders and act like puppets, repeating everything we read in the papers. Oohhh I can't wait `til the first Iraqi children gets teared to bloody pieces *drool*

Kristoffer

02-09-2003, 10:23 AM

:rolleyes:

Radhnoti

02-09-2003, 07:32 PM

Ex-president Clinton is on Larry King right now, saying that he believes President Bush is doing the right thing. He's pointing out that Mr. Powell's evidence was overwhelming, and that inspector's will probably NEVER find what's there with Iraq always "cleaning" the sites.

...where Clinton goes, so goes the Democratic party (up until now anyway). I think the non-aggressive crowd is on a sinking ship...at least here in the U.S.

tnwingtsun

02-10-2003, 01:42 AM

ricksitterly

I was sleepy,fu(k off

I'm an arse hair from being called up to my INF. Unit,not some REMF unit.

So blow off,my point is that the death riders have been unleashed!

If you're not going to follow them you're going to be trampled!!
The man will chapter your arse,I'll put two between your eyes!

And make sure I get the proper support!!!!!!!

Its your job and its up to you!

I'll be blowing caves,shooting and scooting!

I hope you young newbies get a hard taste of what this is all about then maybe you'll be able to see withhout your heads out of your arses!!!!!!!

KC Elbows

02-10-2003, 09:02 AM

Wow, I never once sugeested dropping support of the troops over there, but instead suggested that our leaders are nincompoops who helped make this problem to start with, and haven't the skill, intelligence, or understanding to avoid making another such problem, because at this point, judging by the viewpoint I'm seeing here (do as I do or die), this is more about empire than freedom.

I will voice my opinion. I will not call soldiers baby killers, but I won't call politicians honest either. I am a voter, and so I am the boss. If I'm managing people at work, and one of my people constantly creates difficult situations, his ass is fired. In my model, you move the military into Iraq to fix the problems we caused there, and then move them into Washington to take care of the ones who make the problems, and then you wipe your hands clean of this empire business and become a mature country, not a bunch of babies who can't do without cable, run by a bunch of rich babies who are barely discernable from inbred royalty only because they haven't the balls to call themselves that out loud.

Stifling all dissent, honest and not so honest, is unamerican, but I am quickly gathering that the goals of american life have been tossed out in favor of imperialism, so I guess that isn't so true anymore.:(

guohuen

02-10-2003, 10:25 AM

From my estimation we've never been anything but that. Why else would we consistantly vote for the children of politicians who were extremely questionable in the first place. And how about how we throw around the label "king" for halfarsed pop stars. We seem to love our royalty and want to be told what to do, think and feel by second rate phycologist. (advertising)

Radhnoti

02-10-2003, 10:35 AM

Humans do tend to follow. The good thing about the U.S. is that you have the option of trying to work your way up into a "leadership" position. We've got too many rags-to-riches stories to deny it.

Say whatever you want, it IS your right as an American...but try not to get your feelings hurt when someone else takes advantage of their right to disagree. :)

dwid

02-10-2003, 10:42 AM

Peace went out the door on 9/11...

Unfortunately, civil liberties went out the window.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but these two things are related. We use loaded language in talking about fighting tyranny, etc... But how do you excpect to convince people to fight when things like the so-called Patriot Act are making it so the government has more power and the people have fewest rights of any time in our nation's history.

It's sad that someone can join up under the assumption of protecting the "land of the free" only to come home and find out it ain't as free as it used to be.

Kristoffer

02-10-2003, 11:03 AM

I expect Rogue to insert a red neck comment like
""yeeah let's bomb em!!""
anythime now

@PLUGO

02-10-2003, 11:58 AM

well, What little research I've done on Mr. Powell's "proof" has lead me to 2 personal opinions:

"Hi Rez" satelite photo's can look like anything after a few hours on PHOTOSHOP 7

Aside from "questionable accents" on those recording, there is no time index. They could have been recorded durring the 1st round of weapon inspections last century.

So... I'm still wondering if this "proof" would hold up in a court of "law"

Oh and I find it Hillarious that the UK's definition of "Intelligence Sources" is cutting and pasting some Grad Student's Thesis. A student from California no less... he surely must have been a hippy! :p

. . . still skeptical . . .

ewallace

02-10-2003, 12:10 PM

Yep. Let's blame the US for all this mess. It's not like the UN failed to enforce prior resolutions. And heck, it is up to the UN to prove that Iraq has WMD, forget the initial resolutions that actually read the other way around. Kuwait invaded Iraq, not the other way around. It is entirely unfair that sanctions were imposed on Iraq in the first place. And I don't think that France, Germany and Russia have real interests in Iraq, especially oil. They are just really, really nice folks who want peace, no strings attached. Come on folks, Iraq just really wants sanctions to be lifted. That's all. They are obviously doing everything possible to ensure that. They've shown no resistance to UN Resolutions to disarm over the past twelve or so years. They were on their knees begging inspectors not to leave in '98. All their money has gone to feed and provide medical supplies to their people. Their leader has obviously shed many personal riches to help his people. What an admirable man. And yet the people still suffer and it's all your fault because Iraq has complied with sanctions and you just refuse to lift them you evil, evil Americans. The rest of the world is tired of your inaction.

ewallace

02-10-2003, 12:21 PM

I can drive my car to work. I can quit my job too. I can choose to drive my car to the bar after work (of which I no longer choose to do). I can pick up the phone and tell my grandfather how much I think the president sucks. I can call my uncle and tell him how much I think the president before this one sucked even more. I can go to the Catholic church on Saturday night, the Church of Christ on Sunday, and I can even go to the local Buddhist church too. I can walk into a bookstore and buy the bible, the koran, and the satanic verses, all on my credit card...or cash if I choose. My wife can wear daisy dukes or britney jeans with her hair down and faces at worst some redneck mating calls. If I don't like how my local representatives in the government are voting on issues, I can vote for someone else.

Most people who complain about how the police treat them are doing something that is illegal anyways. I know. I've been there. If I can do everything above and all I get is some checkin up on every now and then so I don't get blown up the next time I'm taking the bus down to watch a basketball game that i wasn't forced to go to, I consider myself pretty lucky.

dwid

02-10-2003, 12:35 PM

I assume your last post was a reply to mine.

I wasn't saying that we in the U.S. have less freedom than everyone else on earth, or anything like that.

My main concern with the Patriot Act and the addition to it that is currently being proposed in Congress is that they extend police powers and reduce oversight.

What is the need for this reduction in oversight? What happened to checks and balances?

I think it's a bit naive for anyone to overlook the corruption that occurs not at all infrequently in law enforcement agencies.

ewallace

02-10-2003, 12:49 PM

Hey dwid, my post wasn't really aimed at anyone in particular. It's kind of a rebuttal to many comments I have heard and read. There is far too much corruption at all levels of government. I will never be one to stay silent when something isn't right. On the other hand, once people get past the conspiracy theories and paranoia, some surveilence is actually a good idea. I'm not saying that you in general are paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. Your points are valid and must always be brought up whenever there is a change to the current system, which needs many changes to begin with.

- Eric

dwid

02-10-2003, 12:52 PM

I now see we agree more than disagree.

KC Elbows

02-10-2003, 01:14 PM

You know, the blame game aside, I've still yet to see a single good answer to what we're gonna do with Iraq afterwards, except more of the same. We're not gonna put in a democracy, because it would never stand. I have serious doubts any regime we could build in the middle east would last, because as long as someone is seen as our puppets, in the middle east, they are not seen as having a mandate to rule.

At the start of the Afghani campaign, our presence served as a destabilizing factor in Pakistan, because the people don't like foreign armies on their soil mounting campaigns, and non-muslim ones at that.

I've quickly come to the opinion that a certain crowd in the US really don't believe that the middle east can ever come into a peaceful accord with the rest of the world on its own. I just wish they were brave enough to just say that they believe in perpetually 'managing' the middle east into a constant state of low grade conflict, and stop whining about how such a state creates monsters. It's like everyone wants bragging rights for being the empire, but no one wants to recognize the dirty work that makes it all possible.

When I was a child, suicide bombers were not blowing up buses in Israel. Sure, people were being killed, but those who were doing the killing apparently held a value to their own lives. Now, they hold no such value. The fault for their actions lies with them, but the fault for creating a society where their lives are meaningless to them doesn't, because they do not control the politics that govern their lives. They live in a poverty that their managers perpetuate. And that poverty was not created by middle eastern powers, no emiratte dictated what is going on in palestine and Israel today, those were western powers, and palastine and Israel is the initial justification for much of the middle east's dislike of us, even if the brits started it, but regardless, we have helped continue it, and our present president did cancel any motions toward peace there very early in his presidency.

So, given that Israel/Palestine is the heart of the middle east as far as middle eastern sentiment of the US goes, we've walked away from any real dialogue, and now seem to just meet with leaders from the rest of the middle east and tell them what we want them to do, and they, often dependent on us, step and fetch it, while we have the upper hand, and only because we have the upper hand. We've created unrest solely by the act of abandoning peace in palastine, even if that peace was just a dream, it was apparently a sometimes effective one. Not placing blame here, for all I know, Bush had every reason to abandon that peace, but the end effect is that we surely don't appear interested in any sort of real dialogue or relationship with the middle east other than as subjects to us, in act if not in name. After all, a nation that houses troops for another nation is, effectively, a subject, and little more.

So, given that our interest isn't at all in a functional middle east as much as one that we can dictate to, exactly who are we gonna use to maintain order in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who simultaneously has enough power to maintain such control, and still be pliable enough to do what we want? I mean, now that Sadam Hussein doesn't do as we like? And at what point will we finally recognize that we'd have to wipe out the whole of the middle east before we finally got rid of any chance of creating more people who would rather die in a blaze of glory than live in everyone's favorite political playground?

I'm just saying that if it isn't us, it will be our descendents that are left to deal with the backlash of our time as an empire. If we must do this war, the most important thing should be what comes afterwards. We have somehow managed to add to fanatacism in the middle east. A lot of people talk about being PC, and how it is untrue that all things are equal. I find such pointless. Even if our society is 'superior' to society in the middle east, it is still insufficient as of yet to make something other than a great ticking time bomb out of middle eastern society, and so our society appears 'inferior' to the role it has placed itself in. I'd love to be proven wrong, but that would require something a little more long term and lasting than what has come before now.

Frankly, I hope that the US falls as an empire, but persists as a culture and nation. This empire stuff is really a waste of time, and it doesn't seem to bring out our best as a people.

Radhnoti

02-10-2003, 02:02 PM

Design Sifu - ""Hi Rez" satelite photo's can look like anything after a few hours on PHOTOSHOP 7." ".... . . still skeptical . . ."

Dude, does it bother you that you're more suspicious of your own country's claims than the claims of a government that would like to see you dead as a political statement? I can't understand the mindset of COMPLETE assumption of guilt of the U.S. by those residing WITHIN the U.S. I could easily understand caution, but you seem to be verbally downing YOUR government every chance you get? Ok...our government has lied and probably will again, but it's somewhat kooky (I think) to assume that any government working against the U.S. is ...righteous and worth believing.

@PLUGO

02-10-2003, 02:19 PM

Someone once said that... "The best thing that happend to England was giving up it's empire; once that happened the culture was free to focus on great music, fashion and generally having a good time. Imagine the cool stuff America could come up with if it reached the same realization without blowing up the world"

or something to that effect... I'll try and dig up the actual quote but KC's post certainly reminded of that statement.

Radhnoti:
Kookey I may be...;) but I've never " assumed that any government working against the U.S. is ...righteous and worth believing." Sorry if I've come off that way. However as a citizen, I feel it my responsibility question what our government is trying to achieve... My observation of history (the U.S.'s political track record, if you will) has lead me to prefer being skeptical.
In paying my taxes I'm supporting the government as it is... if I'm going to say something about our Government, I'd rather it be a challange to it "as it is" in hopes that it might move closer towards what it could be. Isn't that what the "free speach" thing's about?

I work in Media/advertising, I've had fairly extensive schooling on the nature of "the Spin" I see it ALOT in association with news of our government.

"...the claims of a government that would like to see you dead as a political statement?"

It wouldn't take much for that statement to ring very "true" to the ears of alot of people around the world and think of the U.S.

As an US Citizen I'm extremely bothered by that. It seems to me our government has been making more headway in fostering that misunderstanding than clarifying it.

So, to answer your question I would have to say I'm equally suspicious of just about every government I've encountered. I however am just slighter more informed about how my government has lied to me thank say the Republic of GAMBIA...
though I did celebrate the 4th of July at the President's manson back in 1988...or was it 1989?

...still Skeptical... openminded too... :)

KC Elbows

02-10-2003, 02:40 PM

Rad, DS didn't support Iraq, he simply stated he was suspicious of our leader's statements. It's not so either or here. Bush can be wrong and that still doesn't manke sadam a nice guy. But it doesn't help Bush's case, the number of assinine statements(re: he tried to kill daddy), the questionable beginning(i.e. us funding sadam before he was a big threat), meatings that weren't supposed to have happened, but where pictures are now being seen, oil being drilled from Iraq illegaly before the gulf war, us providing the very weapon technology we're telling them they can't have(begging the question, why did we give it if we didn't intend for it to be used?), the very lame evidence that was being provided to us for so long of a link, and, a minor point if you wish it to be, oil, the only **** reason we're in the middle east at all, and not treating it like the rest of the third world countries in the world, just mild charity cases and nothing we'll waste too much time with.

By the same token, Bush doesn't use chemical weapons on people. And I don't know of an instance where he's sold chemical weapon technology to some wingnut. That was another administration. He's spotless as far as modern methods can determine. Of course, a conservative witch hunt a la the Clinton years might be able to turn something up, but apparently, he shall not be held to the same scrutiny, the conservative government won't stand for it, though they publically continued their efforts to account for every presidential sperm cell while Iraq was being bombed during Clinton's admin. That was such a banner time in american politics, how shocking and surprising that such a group should be held suspect for looking out for their own political ends now.

Anyone who gets upset about a lack of trust in US politics needs to examine closely the behavior of US politicians the last ten years. Sure, we need to defend ourselves from enemies, but it would be nice to dispense with the load of bull that comes along with it.

End rant.

@PLUGO

02-10-2003, 02:51 PM

once again KC's webfu is SO blindingly fast he pulls the words off my keayboard before they've left my fingertips...

when the revolution comes I want to be standing next to KC!!! in fact, I'll just hang out and load the muskets while he takes the shots!!! it'll be like that Mel Gibson (http://deadtechwalking.20megsfree.com/www/index.html) movie!!! except without skirts!!! :p :D :p

David Jamieson

02-10-2003, 04:25 PM

Most people who complain about how the police treat them are doing something that is illegal anyways.

Just wanna jump in on this one with the comment that I wholly disagree.

Where I live, there is currently a huge problem with a little thing called "racial profiling". Which are boys in blue deny they do up and down and all around. And yet, the documents and paper trails show 180 degrees towhat the police are saying.

People in our western society are far from being treated equally by our polices forces. Our Black population is more likely to be pulled over on road side spot checks than any other segment of the population.

I constantly hear the banter filled with racial epithets where ever I go. THere is an underlying problem that is in fact a sickness in our western societies. That problem is fear and ignorance, the accelerant and igniter of hate.

The police work for YOU. You pay them and You allow them to enforce the law. The Police by mandate should have the utmost respect for those they work for. There should never be the moments we see daily where peole are thrown to the ground or against their cars or tag teamed.

It is simply wrong wrong wrong and it has to stop somewhere.

cheers

@PLUGO

02-10-2003, 04:33 PM

Thank you KUNG LEK... I appriecate you addressing that.

Consider also the effects of Racial Profiling made official with some of the recient actions of the INS, FBI and the overall "anti-Islamic" anything floating around almost everywhere...

there sometimes seem to be 2 amercas playing out very different "realities" in the same space...

Rockwood

02-10-2003, 04:59 PM

Bu$h and co. have a long history of close relationships with the rich men of Saudia Arabia, including the notorious Bin Laden clan.

Why in hell are we attacking Iraq?

Why aren't we attacking Saudi Arabia, where bin Ladin is hiding out with his rich buddies?

Bush has no interest in catching terrorists, particularly ones with close connections to his family. He only wants more money for Halliburton, Chevron Oil and the rest of his buddies.

There is an unelected fraud sitting in our White house, disgracing this country with an obvious oil grab, while the American press continues to kiss his ass daily.

Now dissidents are held without trial, charges or a lawyer. We now advocate first strike nuclear attacks on any suspected enemy. No more trials or jurys, our military is being used to kill "suspects" with predator drones.

There was a time when America stood up to the most powerful enemies, regardless of the danger. Now we advocate a murderous, vicious assault on the civilians of a weak, pathetic worthless country like Iraq. They won't last fifteen minutes against our arsenal. Murdering women and children in cold blood. It's like a bully beating a retarded kid in a wheelchair. And they call it a war. That's a pathetic lie.

This is how far we've fallen. Using the sacred, hard won virtue of our cherished Armed Forces to extort money and oil for the private fortunes of Cheny, Bush and Rummy. The real Americans among us know that this is outright murder, for private profit and we are disgusted.

Stay tuned when hundreds of thousands of Real Patriots hit the streets this weekend to show president coke-head that we don't want this "war" (massacre).

-JessO

GLW

02-10-2003, 09:01 PM

"Most people who complain about how the police treat them are doing something that is illegal anyways. I know. I've been there. If I can do everything above and all I get is some checkin up on every now and then so I don't get blown up the next time I'm taking the bus down to watch a basketball game that i wasn't forced to go to, I consider myself pretty lucky"

This is SO off base...

Try DWB - Driving While Black.... see how you feel. Or drive down the road in ...oh...say TEXAS...with long hair. (this was a few years ago and it STILL happens) and see how you get pulled over for nothing. See how your car gets searched with NO probable cause and you are NOT and have NOT been involved in anything illegal ever.

Try practicing Kung Fu in front of your OWN house...and have officers give you the third degree and be insulting....

Now, try talking to a group of police officers... They spend so much time dealing with "bad" people that they begin to view just about everyone as bad.

With the patriot act, remember that they did NOT use the powers they had to do everything they could to prevent the attacks - both times - on the World Trade center.

Yet they HAVE used their powers to abuse the rights of those that were labeled political enemies.

Given this track record, what is the likelihood that they will use new powers against terrorism...or will it be to circumvent due process and the bill of rights for citizens..as in the past?

I don't need to give up any of my rights and freedoms to feel more secure. The world is dangerous...I accept that.

Brad

02-10-2003, 10:08 PM

It's like New Rome just north of where I am. They get about 80-90% of their city revenue from ticketing people passing through, and all of it just goes straight back to the police for. There's actually serious discussion of disolving the town all together it's gotten so bad. I think they're down to a population of 60 people now, lol.

Shah

02-11-2003, 12:17 AM

I agree with Shaolin, but not completely. Al-Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq, but then again Al-Qaeda has nothing to do with anything. It is a mere comtroversy created by U.S. to distract attention and justify whatever America is going to or has done. Anything happens on news, Al-Qaeda's connected. A bomb goes off in the Fillipinnes = Al-Qaeda, a bomb goes off in Finland = Al-Qaeda, a guy in tries to take knives through customs = Al-Qaeda, explosives found in France = Al-Qaeda. I mean who isn't seeing something a bit odd in this? If Al-Qaeda had such a large influence and worldwide "terror" power why hadn't anyone heard of it before 9/11??? Has anyone seen the movies Wag The Dog and Diehard 2? If you haven't I suggest you watch them now. Especially the Diehard. If you ask me 9/11 was a plan formulated by U.S. itself to justify it's worldwide conquest and imperialsitc nodes.

To quote a monkeyking: "It is America's soevereign duty to fight the war on terror." This is from a guy who says most of our imports come from other countries... he probably doesn't even know what severeign means. Just like his father he is waging war on the Middle-East to up armament production and increase his own profits (to those that don't know the Bush family owns the majority of weapons production facilities in America).

Ever since U.S told the inspectors to return to Iraq by threat of war the Iraqi leadership has done everything America has asked for. Yet all the time America threatens to attack. Even the Iraqis themselves said that America is just looking for an escuse to attack. Powell strutts up on stage to show pictures of vans and says that these pictures clearly prove that Iraq has "mobile mass destruction weapons facilities." He must think we are all just as intelligent as he is.

All I am saying is try to keep your head cool and think for yourself. Don't follow the news only off one channel and make your own decisions. Don't be a sheep in the information highway being peddled on by the wolf. You all have brains and logic, don't let them waste away.

-----------------

Your only limitations are the ones you place for yourself

dwid

02-11-2003, 05:01 AM

Quote Kung Lek: " The police work for YOU. You pay them and You allow them to enforce the law. The Police by mandate should have the utmost respect for those they work for. There should never be the moments we see daily where peole are thrown to the ground or against their cars or tag teamed."

Amen to that. I recently read a quote that the primary difference between police and the citizenry is that police can make arrests for misdemeanors. This is how it's supposed to be. Any citizen can make a felony arrest. Anyone. There is a long history of abuses predicated on the fact that police misperceive their role as one of keeping the entire citizenry in line. Heck, here in Columbus, there have been numerous cases of lawsuits filed against the city because the local cops arrested people that weren't breaking any law. The police were simply offended and assumed a law had been broken.

shaolin kungfu

02-11-2003, 06:18 AM

Shah, you are a truly stupid person, and I feel dumber for having listned to you. Never... ever say that you agree with me again.

Will someone please shoot him now.

shaolin kungfu

02-11-2003, 06:41 AM

calm down, your scaring everyone:(

ewallace

02-11-2003, 08:10 AM

First, note that Most was in bold.

Try DWB - Driving While Black.... see how you feel. Or drive down the road in ...oh...say TEXAS...with long hair. (this was a few years ago and it STILL happens) and see how you get pulled over for nothing. See how your car gets searched with NO probable cause and you are NOT and have NOT been involved in anything illegal ever.
I have. Well, the long hair part anyway. I've had my car searched for no reason. And it ****ed me off. Looking back, I also complained when I got busted for having something illegal. I thought the cops were harrassing me for no good reason, even though I was breaking the law. Regardless if I thought the law was incorrect or stupid, it was breaking the law. These types of experiences are the basis for my statement of most.

Police work is not an exact science. If you had your car stolen 10 times and 9 times out of 10 the person who stole the car had solid gold boots, chances are anytime you saw someone wearing gold boots you would be very, very suspicious. Is that right to assume they are doing something wrong because they are wearing gold boots? Hell no. But human nature is not always right.

Radhnoti

02-11-2003, 08:26 AM

Shah - "Even the Iraqis themselves said that America is just looking for an escuse to attack."

:rolleyes:

Ya think they might say somethin' like that!?! Welcome to KFO. :D

Design Sifu, I approve of skepticism...assuming it's applied in a general manner, otherwise it's just a preconceived notion of how things are and not a wise mindset. I guess I just catch your "preaching" on the U.S. more often as it's a topic we cover pretty often. Though I've not seen you join in our France bashing threads... Hmm.... ;)

KC - "...they publically continued their efforts to account for every presidential sperm cell..."

He lied under oath. Our system of justice is in large part based on witnesses not making things up while on the witness stand. PEOPLE ARE IN JAIL RIGHT NOW FOR DOING WHAT CLINTON DID. The fact that he never did any jail time is yet another example of how our courts and laws fail when money/power is thrown into the mix. Wait a minute! Did I just U.S. bash!?! I gotta go listen to my "God Bless the U.S.A." single....

rogue

02-11-2003, 08:40 AM

Or drive down the road in ...oh...say TEXAS...with long hair. (this was a few years ago and it STILL happens) and see how you get pulled over for nothing. Now if you want the Texas cops to give you a pass on the long hair all you have to do is have some Hank Jr or David Allen Coe on the old eight track.

Shah is right. The World Trade Center was knocked down as an urban renewal project but blamed upon fictional terrorists who flew fictional aircraft into it.
There is a case to be made that Iraq had something to do with the attack on TWC. The first attack in 1993 (http://www.fas.org/irp/world/iraq/956-tni.htm).

ewallace

02-11-2003, 08:41 AM

And just to clairfy my position above, I think it is absolutely wrong for any law enforcement, government agency, or any group of people to incarcerate, jail or imprision any person or group of people for an extended period of time without just cause. Every incident should be investigated and those found guilty of wrong-doing should face the maximum penality allowable by law for their actions. I absolutely disagree with racial profiling and I understand that it is a real problem.

I also understand that many, many times people will cry wolf to save their own hide. They will play the part of the victim and blame others for their own actions. And I fully believe this happens just as much if not more than REAL injustice.

rogue

02-11-2003, 08:44 AM

Hard to believe that Rockwood is from Berkeley, California.:rolleyes:

Stupid is as stupid does. Have a nice march!

ewallace

02-11-2003, 08:58 AM

It appears many folks around the world have forgotten that Iraq invaded Kuwait back in 1990. After which sanctions were imposed that demanded Iraq to disarm, which it has not. In an ideal world I could put flowers in my hair and surround Sadaam with love and just ask him pretty please to comply with what the world told him to do, my brother.

But when I wake up and realize that my house is not a mushroom, and that Mr. Sadaam has no intenion of complying with what the world demanded of him, I am somewhat disappointed that many many countries are essentially saying okay...we told you to do this 13 years ago, and that didn't work, so maybe we'll draft another resolution and send more inspectors. And if that doesn't work we'll... And if that doesn't work we'll... so much for credibility.

KC Elbows

02-11-2003, 09:02 AM

"Matt Irvin, give me 50 push ups for being a revisionist, uninformed, being a Democrat, a liberal or stupid."

And people give me flack for no longer believing the two party system can be a system of cooperation. It can be a system where the parties get along, as long as no democrats are in office, or trying to get in office, or openly discussing their beliefs. Should any Democrats get into high office, the repubs just pull Kenneth Starr out of mothballs and start looking for sperm throughout the duration of the offending democrats term in office.:p :D

Because that's what the GOP is all about. Preserving the virtue of the underpriveledged white female intern segment of the population. They're so altruistic that way.

;)

BTW, remember how the repubs wanted a return to the 'virtuous' past throughout Clinton's term? Glad to see we've returned to our puritan mores. Hang on, The Man Show just started. Look at them casavas.:eek:

KC Elbows

02-11-2003, 09:04 AM

eWallace, wasn't Kuwait drilling oil from Iraqi fields before the invasion?

ewallace

02-11-2003, 09:10 AM

There should never be the moments we see daily where peole are thrown to the ground or against their cars or tag teamed.
Not when an estranged father on PCP is holding a two-year old girl hostage in his vehicle, threating her life as well as anyone who interferes?

How about when a couple of ex-cons who have just been pulled over for speeding with 10 kilos of coke in the trunk of their car, who have vowed to never return to prison, jump out of the car and try to shoot or stab the policemen who pulled them over?

Should they just ask nicely and put their arms around the offenders and spread the love? If you think these are fairy tales you can see similar stories every single day on COPS or in the paper.

Sometimes you will see/hear/read a story on a real injustice which should never have happened. Every incident must be examined.

ewallace

02-11-2003, 09:13 AM

Not sure. Those silly, silly Kuwatians.

KC Elbows

02-11-2003, 09:20 AM

"He lied under oath. Our system of justice is in large part based on witnesses not making things up while on the witness stand. PEOPLE ARE IN JAIL RIGHT NOW FOR DOING WHAT CLINTON DID. The fact that he never did any jail time is yet another example of how our courts and laws fail when money/power is thrown into the mix. Wait a minute! Did I just U.S. bash!?! I gotta go listen to my "God Bless the U.S.A." single..."

Yes and it only took how many years of witch hunting to get a president to lie about what was none of anyone's business anyway? C'mon, you can't seriously believe that there was no partisan play going on there, it started as soon as the GOP lost the election and ended as soon as a GOP member was in office. Every angle that could be investigated was, and investigated, and investigated, and in the end, and millions of dollars of conservative pushed investigation, the american people can rest assured in the knowledge that the president came on a white girls dress. Wow, amazing detective work, and why did I need to know this? Oh yeah, because the repubs told me I needed to know. Because they would bring virtue back to the US. Yeah, woo, virtue, that's great. I can't believe how dang virtuous it is in the US these days. I mean, before I was like a virtual *****, but now, I gots virtue coming outs my ass.

Hang on, there's that one wall that has a stain that looks like the Virgin Mary. For a few million, Kenneth Starr can identify exactly what kind of stain it is, but it'll cost you more if you want the GOP behind him jeering her holiness at the same time.:D

Rockwood

02-11-2003, 10:37 AM

We were atacked by Saudi Arabia.

EWallace, why are we attacking Iraq? We were attacked by Saudi Arabia! Remember?

Why did you and Bu$h just forget about bin Laden and start screaming for Soddom's head?

Why'd you forget about bin Laden, don't you give a **** about our citizen's getting murdered?

If we were going after the terrorists who attacked us, then you'd see a lot more agreement, even here in Berkeley (Gasp!!)

Iraq hasn't done **** to us.

We were attacked by SAUDI ARABIA!

Are you still so focused on Clinton's **** that you can't see that Bu$h's pals the Saud's screwed us over?

I want to know why you have forgiven bin Laden!

Its funny how we had 500 FBI agents looking for Clinton's semen stains, the whole while bin Laden's guys were training right under our noses. Yet we can't afford to investigate what went wrong on 9/11.

Bu$h and the repubs aren't interested. They just want more oil and they're spitting on the graves of the heroes of 9/11 to get it.

-JessO

ewallace

02-11-2003, 10:42 AM

EWallace, why are we attacking Iraq? We were attacked by Saudi Arabia! Remember?
And I guess we were attacked by Jamaica when the D.C. snipers killed 10 civilians too right? Your logic is flawed. There is no need to continue this discussion.

Rockwood

02-11-2003, 11:15 AM

Why aren't we trying to find bin Laden?

Why can't you answer this simple question?

Why attack a weak, pathetic but oil rich country instead? One with no air force, no Navy, nothing but a few .22s and a couple of scuds?

Why aren't we after bin Laden and the Saudi's who slaughtered our people?

Why did Bu$h switch from bin Laden (with a money trail leading directly to the Saudi government) to the evil Soddom?

E there's a lot of evil people in the world, in China, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Columbia, Zimbabwe, and other places.

Why are we attacking a ****-poor country that's never attacked us, and letting a vicious terrorist attack on New York slide?

Why aren't we in Saudi Arabia turning the whole place inside out to find bin Laden and his pals?

E- why are you afraid of this question?

-JessO

ewallace

02-11-2003, 11:32 AM

Why aren't we trying to find bin Laden?

We are. Just because it's not front page news doesn't mean it's not happening.

Why attack a weak, pathetic but oil rich country instead? One with no air force, no Navy, nothing but a few .22s and a couple of scuds?

The UN required Iraq to disarm in 1990. They have not. Sources outside the US confirm that many, many weapons that were existent back then are unaccounted for now. Don't you find it interesting that Iraq is boasting about how much damage they would do to us if we invade their country? Are they going to do it with their lack of air force, navy, and just their .22s and scud(s)?

Why aren't we after bin Laden and the Saudi's who slaughtered our people?

We are still looking for Bin Laden. The Saudi's who slaughtered our people are dead. They did not have parachutes. If a black guy steals your car, is Africa stealing from the US? If a white guy rapes a family member of yours', is it because Europeans are a bunch of unruley animals?

Why did Bu$h switch from bin Laden (with a money trail leading directly to the Saudi government) to the evil Soddom?

Because Bush thinks that people like you who would question this don't exist, and therefore he can distract the world in his attempt to take it over. As I said above. Just because it isn't being covered 24/7 on CNN doesn't mean it's not happening.

Why aren't we in Saudi Arabia turning the whole place inside out to find bin Laden and his pals?

Saudi is, for now, one of the key US allies in the Middle East. Do you go turning out all of your friends houses when you are missing a cd, or is that just considered disrespectful?

Why are we attacking a ****-poor country that's never attacked us, and letting a vicious terrorist attack on New York slide?

These kinds of questions are why I won't answer anymore questions from you.

Rockwood

02-11-2003, 12:10 PM

e-
Glad you stood up and answered the question, not too many in the pro-war camp are willing to defend their point of view. And you didn't even tell me to love it or leave it! Thanks!

You seem to think that we ARE busy looking for bin Laden. I guess there may be some reason to beleive that.

I guess burning Iraqi women and children with the worlds most advanced weapons and making huge fortunes for weapons manufacturers and oil companies is just a sideline, while we are 'secretly' looking for bin Laden.

An AWOL coward like Bu$h never met a war he didn't like. As long as it's against someone weak who's never done anything to us. Meanwhile they're laughing all the way to the bank in Saudi Arabia, thanks Bu$h.

"Let's roll" on Iraq while no one investigates 9/11 or the Saudi money that bankrolled it.

E- I apologize if it seems like I'm blaming it all on you. My frustration is toward the traitors leading our country into a war for their own private profit.

-JessO

rogue

02-11-2003, 12:48 PM

Rockwood has to be Watchman trolling as a joke. I mean I'm dumb but nobody can be as dumb as Rockwood.:p

ewallace

02-11-2003, 12:53 PM

I'm not necessarily Pro-war. I am Pro-do what you say you are going to do.

I guess burning Iraqi women and children with the worlds most advanced weapons and making huge fortunes for weapons manufacturers and oil companies is just a sideline, while we are 'secretly' looking for bin Laden.
You and Sadaam are looking for Bin Laden? :)

Rockwood

02-11-2003, 01:05 PM

Yeah, well someone said he wanted bin Laden Dead or Alive. Then he went off to make more $ for Halliburton.

It would be nice if we did do what we said we were going to do. You know, go after the guys that murdered our people. But making money off the slaughter of innocents is apparently more important to president AWOL.

What a coward!

He wouldn't handle Osama so he wants to bomb Iraq.

I can't believe we're replaying this movie, let's not talk about who funded 9/11, or why Bu$h is looting the treasury, why the economy is tanking, why the Constitution is being used as toilet paper by Asskrofft.

Nope, attack anyone who can't fight back. Anyone who can shoot back, leave them alone.

Bombs away!

-JessO

PS thanks for the fun, you guys are making a real strong case as to why we are leaving the terrorists alone to attack the defenseless and weak. "Let's roll", right?

ewallace

02-11-2003, 01:21 PM

Are you former military Rockwood?

Rockwood

02-11-2003, 02:23 PM

No, I'm in berkeley, remember? Previous generations have served and one of my brothers currently works for the Army.
-JessO

rogue

02-11-2003, 02:26 PM

Rockwood, can you substantiate any of your rantings?

Rockwood

02-11-2003, 03:21 PM

Rogue,
that's a lot of rants to substantiate.

My basic belief is that we need to focus on the people who killed our people.

Can this be plausably traced to Saudi Arabia?

Saudi Arabia is an extremely fundamentalist country of the Wahhabi strain. This is fanatical religion, their hatred of the West is strong, and although there's plenty of legit criticisms to make, these types of people are not rational and can attack at any time. It is not disputed that the 9/11 attackers were Saudis. It is impossible to dispute that the bin Laden's are a very rich and powerful family in Saudi Arabia, and that there are many powerful people there that are extreme fundamentalists.

It is also indisputable that Bu$h family has deep ties to the oil barons of Saudia Arabia. bin Laden family members have long time ties to Bu$h jr. and sr.

These people are close personal friends and business associates of the Bu$h's. That's why we can never investigate 9/11 or go after the root cause, which is Saudi Arabia's undemocratic totalitarian monarchy. They fund the militants.

I can't prove it, that's why I want an investigation, not a BBQ of however many tens of thousands of Iraqis who couldn't care less about us.

Now you tell me, can you substantiate that slaughtering innocents in Iraq is going to "stop terra"?

Who cares about bin Laden, when we can have all that oil! Who cares about justice, bombs away!!

-JessO

@PLUGO

02-11-2003, 04:19 PM

Design Sifu, I approve of skepticism...assuming it's applied in a general manner, otherwise it's just a preconceived notion of how things are and not a wise mindset. I guess I just catch your "preaching" on the U.S. more often as it's a topic we cover pretty often. Though I've not seen you join in our France bashing threads... Hmm....

Must not have noticed 'em... let me dig up my file on Black Market Horse Meat and I'll be right over!!! :p

Actually, I reserve most of my skepticism for Politics (and the promises of New Aged Hippies;)... Old school Hippies are much more relyable) particularly our government's. Also as I'm not a french citizen nor to I plan to be one, I don't have a mandate for active discourse on the part of it's improvement.

You see, IMO, it's FAR TOO EASY to allow the Government to exist as it is, and I'm concerned doing so would lead to a steady decline.... secondary Law of Thermodynamics at play here eh?

Sorry if I've come of as "Preaching" I don't think I do, More so I'm shooting for "questioning" along with offering "info" either directly Via links. Or based on rememberance...

Also; I've notice a fair amount of "preaching" about the woes of Liberals and what they can do with their opinions on this forum's various threds, as well, have you?
I'm interested in what your view of preaching is, direct quote or general statment.

Not quite racial Profiling:
Some friends of mine have quite the tale about having their car searched while driving north from Florida, and being saved from a full body cavity search because they happened to have a velvet painting of Elvis in their trunk...
"Any Hippy that drives around with a painting of The KING in their car can't be that bad.

That ASIDE...
There have been some studies presented (the State of New Jersey, comes to mind, in that the Gov'ner publicly announced the findings and vowed to take measure to make amends).
The ACLU has done a fair amount of their own reasearch on the topic as well...would they be considered a credable source?

So there's documentation out there stating that Blacks & Latinos are stopped, searched etc... by Police at a rate far in excess to crimes commited. So in terms of "gold Boots" yeah human nature can certainly be flawed. but that shouldn't be justification for a "method" that is institutionalized and self perpetuating. Of course if X times more "blacks" are pulled over & searched... then the chances of blacks being arrested for crimes goes up, and the general belief that "they" commit "more" crimes is reinforced. Am I wrong in believing an institutionalized method should be developed to offset flaws in human nature and judgement.

Anyone remember that vidoe footage of the deaf blak kid who was slamed into the car face first? What kind of police work was that? Why is it that there isn't a "Zero Tolerance" mandate for that sort of situation?

Consider now this same effect projected on anyone of middle-eastern decent. There's a great presidence for the abuse of Power in our "justice system" yet there's a continuing movment to limit and even discredit oversight. I wonder why?

rogue

02-11-2003, 04:33 PM

1) These people are close personal friends and business associates of the Bu$h's.
2)That's why we can never investigate 9/11 or go after the root cause,
3) which is Saudi Arabia's undemocratic totalitarian monarchy. 4)They fund the militants.

5)I can't prove it, that's why I want an investigation, not a BBQ of however many tens of thousands of Iraqis who couldn't care less about us.
1) There are many rooms within the house of Saud, not all friendly toward the US or the Bush family. Then again many could care less about politics.
2) Wrong.
3) Who says the Saudi people want a democracy. anyway Islamists want to establish a new Caliphate, not democracy.
4) True, mostly to keep them out of SA.
5) It has been proved and well before 9/11.

diego

02-11-2003, 06:17 PM

http://pub12.ezboard.com/fpoliticalpalacefrm1.showMessage?topicID=2123.topi c

does osama really love saddam?.

@PLUGO

02-11-2003, 06:44 PM

Who says the Saudi people want a democracy. anyway Islamists want to establish a new Caliphate, not democracy.

I'm curious about this statement... couldn't one ask
"Who says the Iraqi people want a democracy?"
Wasn't the moral need to instill a democracy in Iraq the driving force behind "Regime Change?"

I understand BUSH is now calling for "Regime Change" in Venesuala as well... Where's the line between when TO, and when TO NOT enforce such change in other "sovereign nations"?

rogue

02-11-2003, 06:48 PM

"Socialists are infidels wherever they are," the statement said. But it added: "It does not hurt that in current circumstances, the interests of Muslims coincide with the interests of the socialists in the war against crusaders."

Hey Rockwood, here's what you're looking for. (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030211-030831-8646r)

diego

02-11-2003, 06:54 PM

Rouge, you check my link?..just read the first post!.

Radhnoti

02-11-2003, 08:45 PM

DS,

You took offense at "preaching"?!? :eek:
Sorry, in my part of the country it's used fairly commonly. Someone starts "preaching" when they speak of a subject for which they have great passion, and the words just flow from the strength of their opinions. No offense intended. ;)

ewallace-"I'm not necessarily Pro-war. I am Pro-do what you say you are going to do."

Makes sense to me. If you're not going to follow through, don't make the threat. You lose credibility and come off as a loudmouthed coward, not worthy of serious attention.

I'll point out again, Clinton says Bush has all he needs...I love how that fact is burning up my liberal buddies. :D

Shah

02-12-2003, 03:34 AM

You think it's really right to attack a nation that already is being opressed by it's very own leader. I know many Iraqi's and all of them would love to see Saddam die. I doubt anyone that isn't a part of the "Inner Circle" of Iraq's leadership supports it.

When (not if) US attacks Iraq I truly hope that there will be enough bomb shelters to save atleast a portion of the civilians. It is not a pretty sight when someone gets ripped to shreads. My mother's best friend and her kids were trying to make it across the street when Tehran was being bombed by Saddam's forces and a bomb landed right where they were killing them all instantly. That is something no one should witness or experience. So believe me when I say I have no love for Saddam. But I really hope US will get some back for what it has done in it's wars with other nations. Japan, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and the list goes on...

Remember war is never good but one of the basic instructions in Islam is to fight against your opressors, and if it comes down to it that's what we'll do.

shaolin kungfu

02-12-2003, 03:52 AM

No one's oppressing you Shah. In fact, I can't think of one place in the world where muslims are being oppressed. Certaintly not in Finland. Yes, I agree, war is bad. But not nearly as many civilians would die in a war with Iraq as you obviously want to believe. You have a very backwards view of things and are a very stupid person. Please do not try and peddle your islamic militant beliefs here.

I would like to say that I am a democrat/liberal and am against this war, but this guy has crossed the line.

Shah

02-12-2003, 06:22 AM

Shaolin, if you can not make a counter argument that does not rely on slander then refrain from making one.

When you say people in a war wouldn't die, innocent people then you are wrong. US has chemical weapons, it doesn't want other countries to have them (US is the only country with smallpox in it's SECRETWEAPONSFACILITES), also it's the only nation to have used nuclear weapons on another nation. PLUS it used it on civilians, PLUS it used it TWICE. Now correct me if I am wrong but when US tells Iraq what weapons it can't have (which it gave to Iraq itself in the first place) this seems highly HIPPOCRITICAL.

Plus when I was talking about opression I wasn't referring to myself (obviously). I myself have had (for the most part) a life that doesn't hold room for complaining. So I am not concerned for my own behalf, unlike a lot of people here seem to be. I have compassion (or hope I do) for other people, and am sorry to say that I haven't seen a lot of it from Americans. Sentences like: "Let's bomb the **** out of them." don't seem like something a HUMAN being would say. But then again you aren't hue-men.

dezhen2001

02-12-2003, 06:39 AM

shah: asalam alaikum! eid mubarak!

everything is real screwed up here, especially as it looks like its gonna happen. people on all sides are scared and confused, so its natural to take out aggression and anger.

lets just hope we can all learn something from whateve rhappens and that its not too hard on civillians.

wasalam,
dawood

Shah

02-12-2003, 07:36 AM

My heart goes out to you and I hope wherever you live things are good there four our brothers. (Where do you live?) I was just interested in your nationality.

PS, Eide Ghorban mubarak!

rogue

02-12-2003, 10:25 AM

But I really hope US will get some back for what it has done in it's wars with other nations. Japan, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and the list goes on...

Remember war is never good but one of the basic instructions in Islam is to fight against your opressors, and if it comes down to it that's what we'll do Shah, screw you. Yeah Afghanistan is alot worse off now, poor Japan never recovered from WWII, and it's sad how we leveled Bhagdad during the Gulf war.

So I am not concerned for my own behalf, unlike a lot of people here seem to be. I have compassion (or hope I do) for other people, and am sorry to say that I haven't seen a lot of it from Americans. Clean your own house first amigo, here's a mess and here's a broom to get you started.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/nigeriastoning.htm

Shah

02-12-2003, 10:57 AM

Don't be stupid. You really think that dropping two nuclear bombs on a nations two major cities does no harm?!!?!?!?! :mad: I don't think that the hundreds of thousands of people that died and the thousands after that are !STILL! affected by the radiation and mutation thought it was okay. That kind of retarded philosophy just makes my blood boil. You probably don't even shed a tear in your heart when you see pictures of people DESTROYED I mean utterly destroyed! by war. I doubt your the kind of person that shakes your head when you see torn bodies littering the killing fields that ALWAYS follow up on a war. Well think again. You really think Afghanis were happy when US started bombing it's cities? You think that people are unaffected by war?!?! Well here's a suggestion go find yourself a family that has lost a son in war, go ask a guy who is missing alll his limbs and half his face, go ask a guy that lost both his legs and saw his brother's head blown off while they were both praying. :( See these effects and then say that America's war's affect no one. Just because you see it reported by CNN or whatnot on TV doesn't make it unreal. True, at certain times it might seem so, but it's real... all too real. War isn't pretty... and just because some rich white guy who is interested in increasing profits and downsizing costs says that "You must defend your nation against the terrorists! Enduring Freedom, World's Police etc. etc. etc." This doesn't make it right. The guy who tells you this doesn't know what he's talking about, war doesn't touch their breed. They don't even serve in the army... They talk about terrorist attacks.. well did you wonder why somebody is driven to the point that they are ready to die to kill their "enemy."? What a person has to experience in their life to be driven so to the edge by rage, anger and hatred. None of these are good traits, but what makes them come out in a person? Just think about what I have said... then judge... go see the guy with the picture of his dead 6 months old brother on his table, the guy who has to watch his mother's lament when she remebers her infant....:(

dezhen2001

02-12-2003, 10:57 AM

Shah: i am from the uk :)

it seems everyone is getting het up about this so there is no chance to have a real discussion. Lets just hope this can be sorted in the simplest and safest way.

dawood

Black Jack

02-12-2003, 11:02 AM

I hope we blow up the whole ****ing area and make it into a Simpsons theme park.

@PLUGO

02-12-2003, 11:04 AM

Rad:
not offended by the term Preaching... just didn't know what you meant...

On Civialians:
There is currently a movement of international citizens going to Iraq to act as "human Shield" Brave or Crazy...

A major point of discussion is the effects of Bombing Power plants, sewage plants, hospitals etc... Appariently the bombing of these sites are war crimes, and the fact that many of them where bombed durring the last war lead to the illness and death of MANY Civialians.

Much of Iraq's infrastructure his bairly been repaired (and I'm sure Saddam could have put much more effort to doing so than he did... the ******* ;) ) and U.S. Military has established that they have no problem with bombing such "protected" sites. So it can be inferred that MANY civilians will suffer from this war. Weither from a bomb falling on them our poisioning from having to resort to drinking sewage water...

As for Oppressed Muslims:
There still seems to be a large number of them "detained" here in the states for as yet undisclosed reasons. No charges presented, no trial date set. Even if only 1 out 10 of them is detained as a result of "human error" that one is being oppressed...don't you think?

Shah

02-12-2003, 11:13 AM

Look at it this way. If suddenly say two guys in Saudi Arabia took hostage two Americans US would say: "This is an attack against the US. We must retaliate with full force." But when thousands of Afghanis are taken, for no apparent or proven reason, and put in pens like ANIMALS it is called "detaining terrorists." What happened to innocent until otherwise proven...? Oh I see human rights are only for American's :mad: So basically the message US is giving is that we have the right to do anything we want but everyone else has to play by the rules... correct me if I am wrong but that's what I call a major class BULLY...

Ie. America was the ONLY nation in the WORLD to not accept the Kyoto treaty...

rogue

02-12-2003, 11:18 AM

Well here's a suggestion go find yourself a family that has lost a son in war, go ask a guy who is missing alll his limbs and half his face, go ask a guy that lost both his legs and saw his brother's head blown off while they were both praying. Hey cool I found two!!! Mine and my wifes. Hey how about we extend that to families that lost people in 9/11, various IRA shootings and bombings, and the Iranian revolution.

They talk about terrorist attacks.. well did you wonder why somebody is driven to the point that they are ready to die to kill their "enemy."? What a person has to experience in their life to be driven so to the edge by rage, anger and hatred. None of these are good traits, but what makes them come out in a person? Could it be that those people need someone to blame for the things that their religion or political leanings promise and do not deliver?

rogue

02-12-2003, 11:20 AM

Ie. America was the ONLY nation in the WORLD to not accept the Kyoto treaty... Oh no, Shah has brought out the dreaded Kyoto Treaty argument!!!:eek:

dezhen2001

02-12-2003, 11:23 AM

well im gonna go get a drink of tea and some sleep as this may go on for a while :eek:

dawood

Shah

02-12-2003, 11:26 AM

You really think it's a laughing matter?... if what you say is true and you lost members of your family in 9/11 then my condolances. But because you think it's okay to make jokes about it and laugh then you American's are (or then it's just you) truly soul-less. And I completely agree that people who get killed for whatever reason it is always wrong... but sometimes when I see the news and see a mother crying that her child was crushed under a ton of rubble when the Isreali zionist dogs bull-dozed the house down with people still in it, it really makes me hope that somebody somewhere would give the Palestinians a couple dozen armored vehicle divisions to give the Israelis a little taste of their own MADicine

dezhen2001

02-12-2003, 11:31 AM

:(

dawood

rogue

02-12-2003, 11:36 AM

but sometimes when I see the news and see a mother crying that her child was crushed under a ton of rubble when the Isreali zionist dogs bull-dozed the house down with people still in it, it really makes me hope that somebody somewhere would give the Palestinians a couple dozen armored vehicle divisions to give the Israelis a little taste of their own MADicineOh I can see your point now. Consider yourself on the enemy list. Whoops make that the incredibly stupid enemy list.:p

BTW, Can you guess that I have some "Zionist dogs" for family?

PS While being called Sole-less is nice I still prefer the US being called the Great Satan.

PsyOps Mode:On

Rockwood

02-12-2003, 11:40 AM

Rogue,

Thanks for the link. The Saudi's have a lot to answer for and I'm sick of Bu$sh covering for them. He is a traitor to the people of our country.

Rouge, you gotta realize that Shah is right in terms of American foreign policy. We are flooding Turkey, Egypt and Morroco with guns, bombs, helicopters and F-16s. They use these weapons against civilians in their own countries for political purposes. They cancel elections because they can no longer win fairly. They have lost the support of their own people because of their own heavy handed brutality. And we pay these people millions.

We are propping up these dictators, our weapons industry (Bu$h's cronies) is creating a world that resents us, and rightfully so. This **** has to stop.

Killing civilians is wrong. When we give guns to the Egyptians to mow down people of the other political party, we are helping to create the terrorists who will someday strike back at us.

It's not a simple situation.

We've got to stop propping up these vicious regeimes! That's how we created Sodom and bin Laden in the first place.

We can't just shoot our way out of everything, we've got to f-ing grow up out of this cowboy fantasy.

-JessO

Shah

02-12-2003, 11:43 AM

I don't want to make any enemies, as far as I'm concerned there's too much enmity in the world already. As for the zionist dogs... you're family seems to include a bit of everything, nevertheless if you even know what is the definition of a zionist and your family is/has zionists in it then you ARE on my enemy list. Anyone who supports the zionist regime supports the murder of innocent Palestinians. These murders don't make distinctions between man, woman, child, mother, grand-mother etc. Anyone or thing that is that cold-blooded is far from human.:mad:

KC Elbows

02-12-2003, 11:47 AM

Wow, this is the most depressing turn I've ever seen a thread take.

Shah

02-12-2003, 11:50 AM

You have seen some of the truth. But keep in mind anything, everything the media feeds us is either a blatent lie or "subtle variation" of the truth. Don't trust the news, don't let it make your descisions for you, make your own (not implying anything about your judgment there). Naturally we need a source of information but always hear both sides of the story. Example: I never get my information from one source, I follow US news (Fox News, CNN) BBC, Finnish news, Iranian news and from time to time try to hear out Al-Jazeera. This might sound like a lot of news watching but like I said I only watch them from time to time. The point is to not put all your eggs in one basket.

rogue

02-12-2003, 11:54 AM

you're family seems to include a bit of everything, Great thing about the US. My family is also made up of Bolivians, Argentines, Salvadorans, Spaniards, Micks, Poles, Puerto Ricans, Norges, Jews, Italians, and a few more of inderterminate breeding. Makes it great when traveling always having family to visit somewhere.

BTW. Does being on your enemy list mean I get a Valentines Day card from you this year?:p

Black Jack

02-12-2003, 11:55 AM

Shah I did not know you were a model.

http://hem.bredband.net/niknyk/pics/newass.jpg

@PLUGO

02-12-2003, 12:02 PM

While I'm no fan of much of American Foreign Policy...

"Americans" are not Souless....
Actually Amercians are not one anything... excepted perhaps insulated and relatively wealthy.

Shah... the kind of "Medicine" you're refering to cures nothing. Outrage at injustice is a natural human trait, but as Humans our responsability is to seek out better solutions. Something the current U.S. administration is also not so interested in.

I wonder why Saudi Arabia was excluded from the list of nations whose residence must be fingerprinted & regestered when entering the country? Nationals from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, lybia to name a few must be fingerprinted and "registered"when entering our country... For security reasons... A national from Saudi Arabia Does not have to do this and the majority of the Highjackers who commited the 9/11 crime (as opposed to "act of war") were Saudi !!!

How is that to be explained?

Simpsons Theme Park:
How about we build a worlds Biggest Mosc on the site of the WTC?

Black Jack

02-12-2003, 12:05 PM

Only if I can be one of the evil capitalists who sell curry at the food court.

@PLUGO

02-12-2003, 12:08 PM

vegitarian?

rogue

02-12-2003, 12:20 PM

What does being an animal doctor have to do with curry?
"Americans" are not Souless.... Hell no, we have James Brown and he's the Godfather of Soul! Motown wasn't founded in Andorra.

Kristoffer

02-12-2003, 12:34 PM

Shah, lugna dej. Som vän till många Iranska personer känner jag medlidande och tycker att världen är en hemsk plats just nu, men att kalla civila amerikaner för hundar hjälper ingenting.

~piz~

Shah

02-12-2003, 12:38 PM

I completely agree with you. Agression never "cured" anything. But what makes you so sure that it was Saudi's that were responsible for 9/11. I mean NO "criminal investigation" takes 4 days. But 9/11 did. Plus, the point that you missed is that Saudis not getting fingerprinted isn't wrong but the fact that the rest of Middle-Easterners do. This is racial discrimination at a blatent extreme.

PS I don't think that making comments like let's make a Simpsons theme park etc. and anything in that category is something that improves the way I percieve American's. You are just living up to the stereotype view that I have of your nation.

Black Jack

02-12-2003, 12:43 PM

Like I give a rats arse.

rogue

02-12-2003, 12:48 PM

You are just living up to the stereotype view that I have of your nation. Well you know us Americans, we aim to please. ;)

Black Jack, you think anybody has caught onto the fact that all the Jews called in sick on 9/11? If that gets out the whole terrorism thing goes out the window.:eek:

dwid

02-12-2003, 12:56 PM

Plus, the point that you missed is that Saudis not getting fingerprinted isn't wrong but the fact that the rest of Middle-Easterners do. This is racial discrimination at a blatent extreme.

I couldn't agree more. All non-U.S. citizens entering the U.S. should be fingerprinted, not just Middle Easterners. I mean, hell, you're from Finland, and I'd certainly feel better if you were scrutinized entering the U.S.

Shah

02-12-2003, 01:09 PM

since you don't seem to care then all I can say is that if someone aquired a gun in the US (it ain't too hard, watch Bowling For Columbine) and came up to you and shot you in the face. I would care, I would have feelings. I would be happy. If you don't care then you shouldn't be cared about.

dwid

02-12-2003, 01:10 PM

There's a very balanced and objective source of information.

Michael Moore is the liberal Rush Limbaugh, like from Bizarro world or something.

@PLUGO

02-12-2003, 01:14 PM

What does being an animal doctor have to do with curry?
ever have curried Dog?

me neither... don't plan to either...

I'm not calling for a Simpson's Theme Park... Not as a post War solution... though as an aside I think such a park would be great for the economy of Springfield Illinois.

The topic of Racial Profiling is being discussed somewhere in one of these threds, so I needn't restate my opinion here.
However I'm not sure Fingerprinting every non US citizen's a much better approch. What about good old Tim McVeigh? should we just have EVERYONE fingerprinted? DNA samples as well?
"Fatherla...um, I mean Homeland Security" is a scary enough deal as it is.

Oh an I'll never eat Rat's ass Curry...
...Though I know folks who have eaten rat (we where all in Africa but I was visiting a neighboring town durring that particular dinner), They claim it tastes just like Chicken.

Black Jack

02-12-2003, 01:15 PM

Rogue, you do know that the jews were really hidding out at the secret underground military base at Groom Lake, playing strip dradle with the Bilderbergs,, Council on Foreign Relations, and DARPA, while the twin towers came crashing down by a high powered blast from the HARP program.

Shah, could you be any more flamming.

Shah

02-12-2003, 01:16 PM

You people seem to lose the point all the time. Don't divulge yourself by clinging to small side-line details. The point of giving BfC as an example is to have some source of information. And it IS easy to get a gun in the US. That IS something the movie proves .

rogue

02-12-2003, 01:51 PM

And it IS easy to get a gun in the US. That IS something the movie proves . And your point is...?

Black Jack stop spilling all the secrets. ;)

Shah

02-12-2003, 02:04 PM

I believe I stated my point rather clearly in my previous post.

TibetanKF

02-12-2003, 02:57 PM

I just read all of these mostly ridiculous posts and am completely disgusted. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given the heavily liberal lean of this forum. Anyway, I just have a few points to make. Take them or leave them.

1. The Afghani's were celebrating in the streets, hugging and cheering the US soldiers who had just liberated them. My guess is that the Iranian civilians would choose a few bombs over oppression as well.

2. The atomic bombs that ended WWII prevented many more deaths than it caused and both the Japanese and Americans have admitted it.

3. Shah. Do you live in America? Nothing makes me more angry than Americans that don't appreciate the obvious benefits and opportunities of living in the US. You should be both appreciative and proud.

4. There's a difference between anti-war and anti-American. If you're anti-war, in my opinion you're misguided, but I respect your opinion. If you're anti-American, which a good portion of these supposedly anti-war folks seem to be, I have absolutely no patience for you.

5. The US is apparently the lone beacon of freedom left in this world.

6. Kyoto is a sham. The treaty wants the US to abide by strict standard that would have a huge negative impact on US companies while these same strict standards do not have to be met by India and China, the worlds biggest polluters. US air quality has improved each of the last 15 years.

7. The UN is broken. Iraq is on the security council! You've got to be kidding me. This is an obviously socialist, anti-American organization.

8. The US provides over 60% of the worlds food aid. We're the only country that gives food and medical aid to the civilians of the country we're at war with.

9. Let me get this straight. In 2 years, Bush has caused all of the problems in the world? So the previous 8 years had nothing to do with it, right?

10. Where were all of you anti-war (err, anti-Bush) folks when Clinton was bombing everyone? There were more US military deployments during Clinton's presidency than at any other time in the history of the US, but I don't remember any protests. Why was it ok to liberate Bosnia, but not Iraq? And don't give me that oil argument, it doesn't hold water. Saddam has killed way more innocents than Melosovich ever did.

11. We support Israel because they are the only free democratic country in the region.

12. It may not be popular to say, but Islam is the problem. America never targets innocents. Innocents die in all wars, but they are never the target of the US. These Islamic Fascists (yes I said fascists) specifically target innocents. Before you freak out, I know that all Muslims are not evil, but there is something in the religion that make the crazy ones think that savagery is ok.

That's all.

Black Jack

02-12-2003, 03:06 PM

TibetanKf,

Good Post-I agree.

KC Elbows

02-12-2003, 03:27 PM

1. What the afghanis were doing has little bearing on the Iraqis until someone draws a connection. Seeing as how Powell was relying on a grad paper from 99, that used older source material, and still the paper had to be altered to be scary, doesn't suggest such a connection. Not to mention british news reporting that insiders in british intelligence are saying no such link exists.

2. I haven't really spoken on this issue, as it is not part of the problem at hand. However, I must note that the same people who would say(rightfully) that the bombing of hiroshima and especially nagasaki are impossible to judge because the times were different, also tend to argue that Europe owes us for WWII, simultaneously benefitting from past victories, and conveniently ignoring past ugliness.

3. On the left, somewhere under his name, is where he lives.

4. Not anti-american, not even anti-war, anti "let's feed you false information in an attempt to get our way and paint you like a traitor for recognizing propaganda for the lies they are". This has nothing to do with UN sanctions, they're an excuse, and it has nothing to do with so-called links, they're an excuse. However, I would say it has everything to do with weapons, and so I'm willing to listen, but if you lie to me while I listen, you lose my trust, and then it's your fault, not mine, that I do not believe in the war. In otherwords, we're adults now, we know that presidents lose their loads on interns, we can be told the truth without needing a false picture. It is not Bush's fault that he became president after an eight year partisan with hunt that expanded the rift between both parties, or that he didn't win by enough to have a mandate, but it is the reality he must work under, and it is why he is over a very partisan government where no one group can afford to be nice to the other. I really don't envy him, but that's the facts.

5. We need to share that freedom more. And don't say that's what we're doing in Iraq, we're not forming a free nation there when we're done, we're just picking some guy who won't get uppity with us.

6. No opinion on the Kyoto thing, but that info is interesting.

7. Then how can we be using their sanctions as an excuse for war? Oh, that's right, it's an excuse.

8. And that is one of our good traits.

9. I don't think any of the more reasonable posters suggested that. However, he is responsible for what has happened now. He is responsible for really bad propaganda. He is responsible for saying he wanted revenge for daddy. In a climate as partisan as the US has become, he is responsible for eroding trust by careless words.

10. I find it amusing the number of posters who wish to discount oil from middle eastern discussions. Just a comment. Anyway, Clinton did not put forward one invasion after another, with possibly two more after that. Bush did, and it's a much harder sell to the american people. It's natural that he'd face greater resistance.

11. Just a wee bit of a simplification, dont'cha think?

12. :rolleyes:

@PLUGO

02-12-2003, 03:57 PM

What almost bugs me is how some people get upset over a discourse of diverse even opposing ideas and views and resort to attempts at discrediting the presenter of an opposing view...

But hey, free speach and all that...

Braden

02-12-2003, 03:59 PM

Pot - Kettle - Black.

Rockwood

02-12-2003, 05:30 PM

If you don't like free speech (Bu$h doesn't), if you don't like people assembling and expressing themselves (Bu$h doesn't), if you don't like people being tried by juries (Bu$h doesn't) if you don't like states having rights (Bu$h doesn't), if you don't like honoring our nations peace treaties (Bu$h doesn't)

Then why don't you just leave and go somewhere with no rights, a military dictatorship, no free speech, no trial by jury, and no peace treaties like Iraq or China. Go on, git out! Hyaa!

Whoops, almost forgot, that's what Bu$h is creating here!

-JessO
(patriotic citizen, 'till they strip it away with no trial or evidence)

rogue

02-12-2003, 06:51 PM

if you don't like states having rights (Bu$h doesn't), Remember that was what the Confederacy was fighting for. Slavery was just one of the rights that they wanted to maintain. States also used to have the right to make abortions illegal, have black folk pay poll taxes, drink from seperate water fountains and a few other things that people now find distasteful.

diego

02-12-2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by TibetanKF

12. It may not be popular to say, but Islam is the problem. America never targets innocents. Innocents die in all wars, but they are never the target of the US. These Islamic Fascists (yes I said fascists) specifically target innocents. Before you freak out, I know that all Muslims are not evil, but there is something in the religion that make the crazy ones think that savagery is ok.

That's all.

proof please!!!. lmfao.......

ever heard of a christian teaching the heathan

are you christian?.

diego

02-12-2003, 09:24 PM

is it true america only helped in ww1 and 2 because they were trying to be good christians...wasnt that one famous general from ww2 a heavy christian?...anyone know what im refferring to cuz i cant remember his name!?.

Radhnoti

02-12-2003, 10:08 PM

K.C. -"Anyway, Clinton did not put forward one invasion after another, with possibly two more after that."

Under President Clinton U-S forces averaged one new deployment every nine weeks.
Clinton deployed American troops more often than Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. did during their combined 12 years.
Here's the breakdown for troop deployments:
Under Ronald Reagan: 16
Under G.H.W. Bush: 14
Under W.C. Clinton: 40

-various sources.. from google search of "Clinton troop deployment"

Braden

02-12-2003, 10:10 PM

Yes, but Clinton didn't bother with silly things like telling the American people what he was doing, or maybe running it past the UN first... so of course none of these guys know about it! ;)

Plus he had a poorly timed affair! I mean... which would you rather gossip about, your president being a war criminal, or oral sex!?

Shah

02-13-2003, 12:33 AM

1. First of all I remember the news footage where it showed Palestinian civilians dancing. Even so I believe, due to the extreme hardship they have gone through, they have a right to do what they did. Plus I doubt a few people who celebrate represent a whole nation. If you looked closely, I did, it was the same dozen people they showed each time. I highly doubt that even you can say that a dozen people represent a nation. I am willing to bet my life that more than dozen Americans were joyed at the event for undiclosed reasons. Plus I am Iranian (half of me) and I can say that nobody should be offered the choice between bombs or opression. PLUS I do not feel opressed by my nation and doubtfully ever will. Even if I did I wouldn't want another nation (least of all America) to stick it's nose where it doesn't belong (which it seems to have a habit of doing). Let a nation have their own revolution. Revolution not annexation.

2. I have never heard a Japanese guy say that he thought the two nuclear bombs were for the better, and if the bombs were dropped on US i doubt you people would say that either. Please... don't try to defend a horrific crime against humanity (it's like Germans defending the Nazi's). That makes ME puke.

3. Right. Well it says where I live in my "stats". Although I don't see how America is a good place to live. An American family friend (yes we have American friends, I am not too prone towards prejudice) when visiting Finland, was amazed that my mom would let us kids play outside alone. US has one of the highest crime rates in the world. US has one of the worst academic student performance amongst the MEDCs (more economically developed countries). etc.

4. Well there's only one answer to that question and that is that I am anti-both. To me they stand for pretty much the same excepet America manages to cover quite a few other areas as well, like opression.

5. I would definetly not say that. Even your fellow citizens were highly disputing this matter (see beginnings of thread). I would say any of the Scandinavian countries has A LOT more freedom in them.

6. Kyoto is a sham? That's probably what your leader said AFTER scrapping it. If you think saving our planet from pollution at the cost of a few rich white suits losing a few bucks from their BILLION dollar income is horrible and wrong then I am at a loss for words. What comes to China and India, a polluter is a polluter every country has its suits, BUT they did agree to sign the treaty. Like I said America was the only one not to.

7. As I remeber it the UN was open for every nation. But on this one I completely agree with you, but for very different reasons. UN is a sham. It is a puppet the US set up to "keep the peace," but now the puppet has got out of hand and the child raises it's hand against the master. Now the unruly kid dares question America and make unwanted propositions?! But thankfully America still has the little baby wrapped around it's little finger, oh ever so tightly.

8. Well as what comes to the 60% it is something you HAVE to do. Seeing as how you make the money of the sweat of the backs of people of the opressed nations you "help." America has a multi- trillion dollar import export going on with Africa's nations. It goes something like this: We give your dictators guns in exchange for ridicilously low prices on your nations raw-materials. A lot of Africa's poorest nations produce FIVE times the amount of food they need. But due to lack of transportation and refrigiration about 85% goes to waste. Why doesn't America concentrate on giving real aid? Call me crazy but maybe it doesn't want to...:rolleyes:

9. Hmm.. well I don't know about the others but I never pointed fingers at Bush himself. Although he and his father both started wars on Iraq for some reason... go figure

10. Just because Clinton did what Bush did a little worse that doesn't make Bush a good guy... what happened to wholesome logic, two wrongs don't make a right? PS Clinton, as far as I can remember (I was pretty young back then) started wars with two nations, Bush has done the same.

11. Right.... now that is something you can not back up. Let me see... wait IRAN is a republic, right... how did I miss that one (don't tell me it isn't because both my father and brother voted last year) Guess what we have parties there as well :) ... :mad:

PS to call Israel "free" is something of a "ignorant" thing to say. Here's a few examples : Non-Jews can not own property in Israel (kind of like in Nazi Germany only the opposite way around, ironic huh?). Register plates on cars or marked different for non-Jews so they can be noticed (again clear reminiscence of Nazi Germany). The heads of Israeli army have ADMITTED that they have unscrupulously murdered unarmed POWs. Plus the government refuses to prosecute these Israeli war criminals. Non-Jew property can be taken at will by the government at any given time (notice the link, the pattern). Isreal pays SIX different American PR groups to give a good image of Israel. Sharon supports a political party in Israel that says all Non-Jews must be driven from THEIR OWN homeland.

12. Now you are just being the typical over-generalizing American. NEVER call a religion the problem. Ie. I don't like the Taliban and their twisted sense of faith. But they are people with a right to their own beliefs. WHO are you to critisize their beliefs?! .... Check this link for a nice slide show on Islam... the real Islam:
http://members.rogers.com/malikelshabazz/

More to come

Laughing Cow

02-13-2003, 12:43 AM

Shah.

I think you are fighting a loosing battle here.

"You can take a Horse to the river, but you can't make it drink."

Most of the Pro-US guys here are so far gone that they won't or are no longer capable of listening to other people.

I fully see you points and understand your concerns, being a fellow European i grew up along different religions and people from middle-eastern countries too.

As for the Palestinians dancing, I am sure that there will be "happy" US-Citizen too that will toast the bombing of Iraq and similar too and make snite remarks.

Just my view naturally. ;)

Shah

02-13-2003, 12:47 AM

I share your feelings. But like it is said: "If you can't bring Muhammed to the moutain, bring the mountain to Muhammed."

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 03:24 AM

Shah: asalam alaikum :)

these kind of arguments have been happening here since 9/11. i dont know how long you have been a member but i have explained as much as i can about islam in many different threads - even explaining the verses from Quran most always use to justify these horrible, horrible attrocities.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Quran al-kareem tells us that we can believe what we want, and others also have their own choice.

What i dont like is when people judge a religion based on some people. Islam is ONLY Quran (and questionably Hadith and Sunnah)... its just words. they dont change. its up to people to understand and use intelligence. if they dont, then the words can be twisted to suit whatever end you like. Arguably that can be said to use intelligence also... but its when people follow like sheep, believeing what they are told that leads to these problems - whether what some imam or minister says, what the president says, the media says - anything.

Especially its to do with different sects in islam, some are more extreme than others - and the vast majority of muslims are just fine. Just a few people who follow certain leaders from the past who were living in different ocnditions and a different time.

Inshallah (God willing) that islam and everyone else can sort themselves out, but its just human nature.

wasalam,
dawood

Shah

02-13-2003, 04:19 AM

Absolutely, no religion (the ones that I know) preaches things that are morally questionable. No religion tells you to kill people, opress, steal etc. It is human error, so to speak, that causes these antagonisms.

PS I signed up a few weeks ago.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 05:03 AM

welcome to kfo :D

dawood

KC Elbows

02-13-2003, 08:27 AM

I would like to say that the "pro US/anti US" rhetoric is innappropriate when talking about two groups within the US. If I disagree with policies being carried out in my name, and I speak out against it, and am, thus "anti US", then what is being used to define the US may be at fault, because you can bet that my views are not an anochronism on the american landscape, but concerns held by many, with a few key exceptions that don't really relate to this discussion.

To call a person anti or pro US, you must define what US is. If it is policies, then I guess I'm a mix of pro and anti. If it's culture, again I'm a mix. I haven't seen anything on these threads to make me think that we're all not mixes of pro and anti, if that is the definition. If you are against liberal policies in all their forms, you are anti american as much as if you are against conservative policies, because it's a two party system. If you're (rightfully) sick of the two parties you have, you're also anti-american. If you like ****sexuals, you're equally anti american to those who don't like them. In otherwords, the term is meaningless. It's an easy way to discredit another person, but it has no value except in extreme cases. Now, there are a couple extreme cases being used here, but I don't think any of us have been too careful about only applying such terminology to them, and not as blanket statements to all opposition. I'm including myself in that.

KC Elbows

02-13-2003, 09:39 AM

Stumblefist, I don't think going with the flow in Iraq is a good idea. A concrete plan, that includes how we will behave so as not to destabilize the country, needs to be in place BEFORE the war. Rules of our own conduct must be established, so that the new leader can tell his people that he will rule for them, and not for the US, and not be lying through his teeth.

I consider such information the single most important factor in whether or not I believe in this war. All else is meaningless before it, because without it, we change nothing about our present situation except meaningless surface details. It is like kung fu fighting- once contact is made, every move must affect my opponent. In the case, the opponent is the situation in the middle east(NOT Iraq, Iraq is the symptom). If what we do does not affect the situation, it is not much different than doing nothing.

ewallace

02-13-2003, 09:40 AM

First of all I remember the news footage where it showed Palestinian civilians dancing. Even so I believe, due to the extreme hardship they have gone through, they have a right to do what they did.
I did not even bother reading the rest of any more of your posts Shah. You have just lost all credibility for any kind of rational conversation.

You (figuratively) and your like are the absolute most hypicritical folks around. You whine and complain about how badly you are treated, what horrible atrocities are being committed against your people. Then you jump up and down in joy when innocent folks are killed. Maybe the US should just take up your logic. Maybe we should unleash our arsenal on Palestine, hell why not just take out the whole middle east because some of them have killed our people, and some of them don't share the same religion. Maybe we should just wipe out anyone who doesn't sympothize with us and take our point of view. Maybe we should start sending our people, with the best weapons this world has ever scene, into your schools, restaraunts and hotels. Then maybe you will see our point of view.

TibetanKF

02-13-2003, 11:22 AM

Second, as my first post specifically stated, I completely respect those who are anti war. My father is the biggest pacifist I've ever met, but he is also very consistent in his beliefs and loves his country. Again, there is a difference between anti-war and anti-America.

Third, regarding Bush. I don't support all of his domestic or foreign policies, but I do believe that he is as honest a politician as you will find. If this honest talk scares people, so be it.

Rockwood
Please back up your accusations about Bush. You're a typical Berkeley liberal. No facts, just attacks.

Rogue
I can't figure you out. Based on your posts, I have no idea where you stand on the issue.

Diego
I have no proof that Islam is the problem, that's just my opinion. I do know that these terrorist acts are performed in the name of their religious beliefs and that is a problem. It's not politically correct, but it seems obvious to me. I am not in the least bit religious, so this belief has nothing to do with opposing religious beliefs. Also, as I stated in my previous post, I have absolutely no animosity towards Muslims. I have several Muslim friends and acquaintances that I think very highly of. I just think it's incredibly ignorant to think that the terrorist's religious beliefs have nothing to do with it. America entered and won WWII because the free world depended on it.

Shah
Only a dozen Afghanis were happy to be liberated? OK. I may be missing something, could you please tell me who America is oppressing? Again, America didn't sign the Kyoto treaty because it was the only nation held to the high standards and America is not near the biggest polluter in the world. If America was in control of the UN, the war would be over by now. I mistakenly referenced Iran instead of Iraq. I don't care to learn about the "real Islam" I have nothing against any religion. Of course the people are the problem, but theirs something in that makes them act in a way that other's don't. I hope you are just a very young and clueless person and not actually as stupid as you sound.

Laughing Cow
When I was younger I would have been on your side in this argument. I didn't come to by beliefs by listening to only one side of the argument. "you can take the horse to the river, but if the water stinks he won't drink it."

@PLUGO

02-13-2003, 12:24 PM

Rather than continuing the entanglment about weither "muslims" are or are not a problem...
Might I offer... "Fundamentalists" or "Extreme Fundimentalists"

Every time I read the discourse on "muslims" I find my self thinking of "the Army of God" organization... or more specificly the guy who was arrested not so long ago and is on trial for shooting an abortion doctor dead as punishment.

I hope we don't get into an abortion discussion here, I'm just trying to illustrait that there's likely an "Extreme Fundimentalists" fringe amongst any religion or social group for that matter, that will tend to take a belief a step too far, the result being violence and injury.

Other examples that spring to mind are:

Covert tree spiking that lead to loggers having their chainsaw explode in their hands.

Abortion clinic bombings or the receint Anthrax hoaks (not to say these where all commited by "christian Fundimentalists")

The stoning of women...

The crushing of gays...

Shooting rockthrowing kids with machine guns...

and of course flying airplanes into buildings...

ewallace

02-13-2003, 12:33 PM

You don't have to be a Muslim, or a fundamentalist muslim, christian, catholic, satanist to be in idiot. Anyone who delights in the death of other people, innocent people at that, would certainly fall into that category. There is no logic in the world that could justify enjoying or understanding the enjoyment of mass murder.

TibetanKF

02-13-2003, 12:59 PM

Design Sifu

That's a fair response. Thanks.

@PLUGO

02-13-2003, 01:59 PM

You don't have to be a Muslim, or a fundamentalist muslim, christian, catholic, satanist to be in idiot.

Werd UP wally!!!

er... can I call you wally? just this once?

runs from angry viking!!!

ewallace

02-13-2003, 02:09 PM

I'll just chalk it up to you having a bad spelling/typing/talking day like I am.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 05:39 PM

You don't have to be a Muslim, or a fundamentalist muslim, christian, catholic, satanist to be in idiot. Anyone who delights in the death of other people, innocent people at that, would certainly fall into that category.

glad someone else said that as no one was listening to me. :)

dawood

Laughing Cow

02-13-2003, 05:41 PM

Dawood.

Any more news about the gatwick Incident??

International news as always seem to be a wee bit slow.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 05:48 PM

sorry i just woke up from a night shift and uni classes... didnt know about it till you said! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757143.stm

thats terrible! :( at least its not a muslim this time :(

dawood

@PLUGO

02-13-2003, 05:52 PM

As the guy's Venezuelan.... I wonder if this means the U.S. will call for Hugo Chavez to be ousted . . .

oh, that's right,they already have. :( :eek: :(

rogue

02-13-2003, 08:05 PM

Rogue
I can't figure you out. Based on your posts, I have no idea where you stand on the issue.
I consider myself a moderate.:D BTW Which issue?

In regards to Islam it's not for me. I also don't buy into the current spin that Islam is not aggressive. Islam has always had a aggressive streak. I have several good Muslim friends as do my children and they're great folk. Sadly one(a Pakistani) went to Saudi Arabia and got involved with the Wahabi sect and seemed not quite himself the last time I talked with him. His wife is upset because he won't talk with their family because they're Sunni. The aggression Sunni, Shia and Wahabi show each other is much greater than anything they experience here in the US.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 08:12 PM

yup agreed rogue... Wahabbism form the little i understand is not really a good thing. As far as i can tell it was founded by someone at a time when they needed to defend themselves badly or somehting, which is why its so strict and militant... but imo its used out of context in this case :(

Thankfully KSA may be reigning in control of the extremist groups a little more down the line if current words are to be believed.

As far as sects... i guess its the same in anything - religion, politics (as we can see), even kung fu :(

I have talked with many people fomr all different faiths, even sunni and shia all in the same room with no animosity, just respect and a desire to learn more about human nature... really i cant see why there is so much hate.

im not gonna preach about Islam again as there is no point, i just think its a sad state of affairs when life goes down the crapper like it has everywhere these days :(

dawood

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 08:29 PM

found this article, which gives a Muslim point of view on things...recapturing Islam from the terrorists (http://65.39.144.73/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm)

dawood

rogue

02-13-2003, 08:39 PM

This is pretty sad. (http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000149.php)

In my previous neighborhood I had Iranian Shiites to the right and Pakistani Sunni to the left of me. We watched each others kids, had BBQs(I keep a Kosher grill, a set of cooking utensils and chinetes for my Jewish kin) and everyone got along. Though the Pakistani couple was a little shocked that my friend Aziz would drink beer and his wife wore very colorful(to put it mildly) clothes, but they got along great. What did the three women talk about? Why shoes and fabric of course. My wife was a fashion major and loved the lace work on the gals hajib(?).

rogue

02-13-2003, 08:50 PM

Good article Dawood, your folk need more guys like him willing to speak out. The only problem that Islam won't shake is that Osama, Richard Reed and all the rest are all Muslims. Catholics got stuck with the IRA in Ireland and Marxists in South America and you guys are stuck with your bunch. The only thing that will change that is to denounce them with no if's and/or but's about why they do what they do, and to hunt them down and bring them the justice.

Two interesting books that I'm currently reading are What Went Wrong by Bernard Lewis and My Jihad by Aukai Collins. I'm not sure I buy all that Collins says as he seems a bit like a nut but it's still interesting.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 09:03 PM

man im meant to be studying all night... but im reading kfo and other forums instead :(

rogue: agreed... people learn how to live together - it seems ot be 'scholars' and other people in 'authority' that are trying to influence them. i dont know of anyone who has really had to live in a mixed neighbourhood, work to support their family and bring kids up together that hate each other.

in fact i dont know of anyone in the UK (apart from that hook handed 'imam') that has said such bad things about the west or any other sects in Islam as we all have to live and practise our faith together here. I know here we have a shia mosque as well as a few sunni ones, as they pray a little differently and things. But i know that during eid and ramadan for example everyone was very welcoming.

people always have some minor differences, but that doesnt mean that its ok to commit these attrocities.

hope those books are good - islamically all i am looking in is Quran and have not found anything out of line once the context is understood. Its when that gets mixed up with "sunnah" and "hadith" which all contradict and are questionable that things get murky. I can pretty much guarantee that all these troubles are more from following those than Quran.

Even questioning their authenticity and why they contradict Quran and each other has gotten me in to trouble on other discussion forums about Islam from people who are more extreme or 'blinded'.

dawood

rogue

02-13-2003, 09:06 PM

Log off and hit your books my friend. G'night.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 09:08 PM

im doing research online :eek:
ttyl,

dawood

rogue

02-13-2003, 09:10 PM

And I'm working. This internet sux for productivity.:D

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 09:14 PM

LOL! :D

i just found out today (well thursday evening) that my timetables changed and i have class tomorrow morning instead of tues morning :eek: i have to read a passage of text, annotate and write a 300-500 word synopsis of the plot. then brainstorm initial ideas for an interactive display explaining the emotion, feelings and what happens in the story :confused:

beat that :p

dawood

joedoe

02-13-2003, 09:34 PM

My personal opinion is that problems related to religion occur when people stop thinking about their beliefs for themselves, and rely on others to tell them what they should believe. This happens in all religions - elders in the religion whose job really is spiritual/religious guidance begin to take on the role of people who dictate the thoughts and beliefs of the congregation.

For some people it is convenient to let someone tell them what to believe because it takes too much effort to think about things themselves. I believe this is where religions get distorted and bent.

dezhen2001

02-13-2003, 09:40 PM

good post... its interesting for me... in Quran it tells us to use our eyes, ears and intelligence to grow and understand otherwise on judgement day the senses will all testify against us... it also warns us about following what others and the people before us have done with no thought or investigation...

but it seems to be happening all over again :(

i agree joedoe, ur smarter than u look :D stagnation leads ot misunderstanding and not realising the full potential - just like in kung fu or anything else. believing what others say without understanding for yourself leads to warped views and hance all the sheit we are in now... imo

dawood

Braden

02-13-2003, 09:40 PM

joedoe - I'd have to disagree, if I'm reading you correctly.

I would say there are problems with religion when, a) there is not a reasonable seperation of church and state, and b) the religion espouses itself to favor the chosen few over the lesser others.

Simply making up your own beliefs without religious guidance has long been a source, and not the cure, of religious war and intolerance. This is easily seen with a study of the history of Protestantism.

Shah

02-14-2003, 03:45 AM

I read the posts that have been said and must say I am dissapointed. It seems that my posts have been completely ignored. You are still debating on what to do when you invade Iraq, all the while by-passing the fact that the intital action is wrong. Maybe this is a way you live with your actions? Like I said before and will say again: It is wrong to invade arnother country. NO MATTER THE REASON. It is all justification. If Iran were to invade Afghanistan (which it was about to do a few years ago) I would not have agreed with it. (Generally speaking) the defending country is ALWAYS being wronged. For example when US invaded Vietnam in the 60s (or was it 70s? My US history isn't too great) it used the excuse, EXCUSE mind you, of communisim. So they invaded another country because their form of government was seen as a threat to US economy. Horrible crimes against humanity were committed during this war, and there is NO denying it. Now US is using Islam as an excuse for invading the Middle-East (maybe it doesn't say it openly but that's the subliminal message. Atleast as far as I can see you guys have all blamed Islam as an "aggressive" religion, when in truth no religion preaches aggression. What religion tells you to kill or disrispect your neighbour?) but all it really wants is oil and a way of surrounding the up-coming super power China. Let's face it, when anyone thinks rationally for a while... just think, even if for a while... What nation started a war because of the goodness in it's heart? Tell me what nation? Did the church start the Crusades in the middle-age because of kind-heartedness? Did the Muslim caliphs (in the 6th- 15th centuries) wage war against the whole known world because they felt it was kind and a good thing to do? No those are the things they tell the common rank-and-file warriors to fight the war. If your rank-and-file then go ahead believe the lies... but like I said before, were all human beings with rational thought and free will... use them don't let it go to waste.

Ewallace: I am really dissapointed at you post. I think I have been exxtreeemelyyy patient and tried to behave rationally. That is the good part with writing what you want to say... your emotions don't run amock and you can think about what you want to say. Please tell me what did I say that hit you as sooo irrational?:confused:

Shah

02-14-2003, 03:48 AM

When did I say that the celebration of the Palestinians was justified? All I said was that I could see where they were coming from (or that's what I meant). But the rest of your post is something extremely irrational. Do you really feel that you should go and kill everybody? Is there really that much hatred in you? Could you bring yourself around to kill someone innocent? Has your life been so filled with hardship and misery? I thought you said America was a good country? (No sarcasm meant in any of those) :(

Shah

02-14-2003, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by TibetanKF

Shah
Only a dozen Afghanis were happy to be liberated? OK. I may be missing something, could you please tell me who America is oppressing? Again, America didn't sign the Kyoto treaty because it was the only nation held to the high standards and America is not near the biggest polluter in the world. If America was in control of the UN, the war would be over by now. I mistakenly referenced Iran instead of Iraq. I don't care to learn about the "real Islam" I have nothing against any religion. Of course the people are the problem, but theirs something in that makes them act in a way that other's don't. I hope you are just a very young and clueless person and not actually as stupid as you sound.

Your comments sadden and anger me. You have no wish to learn about that which you hate, openly admitting your prejudice and racial discrimination tendecies. Face it. When you said you have
no wishes to learn about Islam you admitted your blind hatred and your own stupidity... So when you know nothing about the REAL Islam then how can you say anything about it... In other words anything you say about Islam is utter BS (nice way to shoot yourself in the foot)

If you think making comments about my age (which can be seen in my profile) is suitable for a counter-argument then I suggest you head straight back to the drawing board.

Don't try to defend the Kyoto treaty thing, that's a clear cut case. The standards were the same for EVERY country and only seemed like huge to US because it had SO much to reduce (and America IS the biggest polluter in the world, incase you were mis informed)

America is in control of UN (it has a veto right along with China and Russia, and maybe someone else) I don't see how this would help end the war? Which war?

As for who America is oppressing... I have went over that many times. Either read my posts or don't make comments about them...

Laughing Cow

02-14-2003, 04:32 AM

TibetanKF.

Here is some Info for you:

USA is the world's biggest polluter
Widely known as the world's largest polluter, America has recently not backed pollution treaties to reduce car emissions or petrol consumption. The US alone accounted for 36.1% of worldwide greenhouse emissions in 1990 [BBC].
"The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions. By comparison, Britain emits 3% - about the same as India which has 15 times as many people "

BBC: The US and climate change

Many environmentalists understand that developing countries do not have the technology or means to use the most modern or environmentally friendly industrial equipment. But when such a rich country as the USA fails to take responsibility for it's own pollution it really annoys a lot of people worldwide. I have created this essay just to concentrate on the USA and President Bush's effect on the Kyoto Protocol because I receive so many emails from people expressing a hatred of the USA because of these issues.

Source (http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html#Pollution)

If you are not aware of such a well kown fact than ask yourself what other facts you got wrong.

To be honest from what I have seen here or on other Boards I find that a LOT of people got facts twisted or complately wrong and will happily defend those wrong fact.

Cheers.

rogue

02-14-2003, 06:42 AM

So when you know nothing about the REAL Islam then how can you say anything about it... In other words anything you say about Islam is utter BS (nice way to shoot yourself in the foot)
Shah, you can talk all you want about the REAL Islam but your words are full of hate for the US. Like the Catholic Church has got a black eye by having some priests who are pedophiles Islam gets a black eye by harboring and supporting terrorists. And until the world of Islam removes the terrorists from this earth then it will always have to be lumped in with them.

TibetanKF

02-14-2003, 07:56 AM

Shah
I'm sorry you're saddened and angered. You wouldn't be if you had actually read my posts. I specifically said that I had nothing against any religion, I was just making an observation that an awful lot of terrorist violence is committed in the name of Islam. Learning more about Islam will not change that simple observation as it has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam. There was no hate in my words. Also, I never mentioned race and you labeled me a racist. Typical. You're a very angry little boy, I just hope you come to your senses when you become an adult.

Regarding Kyoto
Kyoto would cost industrialized nations (not just the US) 900Billion annually by the year 2050 (NRO) - all to reduce global warming (which has never been proved to exist) a hypothetical and undetectable .07 degrees C. Here's a simple fact of Economics for you - when billionaires lose billions of dollars, non-billionaires lose jobs. Again the reason it was rejected (during the Clinton administration) was because other industrial countries would not be held to the same standards as the US with regards to reducing "greenhouse gasses". Kyoto is a crock and it exists only as a bludgeon against the US. It would do nothing but hurt the US, where the air quality is improving each year due to improved technology and strict emissions laws. The BBC is certainly not the place I'd go for unbiased information.

Feel free to read what you want into my comments. I've grown tired of this debate.

ewallace

02-14-2003, 08:34 AM

When did I say that the celebration of the Palestinians was justified?
In the quote below:

First of all I remember the news footage where it showed Palestinian civilians dancing. Even so I believe, due to the extreme hardship they have gone through, they have a right to do what they did.
There is the justification plain and simple.

If you think my post is irrational, then you can see just how irrational the actions of many palestinians are. Explain how they have a right to cheer the murder of 3000 people? The only explanation I can think of as to why they would is because the US is an ally of Israel. Which tells me that the mentality of these people (not every Palestinian) is "you don't agree with us, therefore we are glad you are suffering".

Do I feel that we should or anyone should go killing people? Absolutely not. You must have missed the part in my post that said "Maybe the US should take up your logic".

Braden

02-14-2003, 11:19 AM

Kyoto would cost Canada 450,000 jobs in a single year. And the auto industry, which is what most people complain about, isn't even covered in it. Thank god people aren't ratifying it.

People need to distinguish between honestly caring about the environment, and supporting anything with the word 'environment' tacked on to it. These things aren't just different, they're often opposed.

@PLUGO

02-14-2003, 12:32 PM

global warming (which has never been proved to exist)

Some scientists (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000C9535-EF02-1C5A-B882809EC588ED9F) would disagree (http://www.enn.com/indepth/warming/sign1.asp) with that coment.

So I suppose the question is what (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/climate/stories/clim010998.htm) indicates proof (http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/larsen.htm) of Global Warming. (http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/global_warming.html)

And for that matter.. is that the same standard for proof being applied for say... weapon inspections? (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/14/international/14SHELL-UN.html)

Braden

02-14-2003, 12:58 PM

"Some scientists would disagree with that coment."

Maybe, but none you linked up. Newspapers of scientists saying they believe in global warming is not the same as tradepapers proving global warming.

"And for that matter.. is that the same standard for proof being applied for say... weapon inspections?"

Proof? How about holding them in your hands so you can neutralize them: "Inspection teams returned to Iraq's al-Muthanna chemical weapons installation, where they have been destroying artillery shells and neutralizing four plastic containers filled with mustard gas." - Associated Press

How about Iraq admitting it: "'The experts concluded that, based on the data provided by Iraq, the two declared variants of the Al Samoud 2 missile were capable of exceeding 150 kilometers (93 miles) in range. This missile system is therefore proscribed for Iraq,' Blix said." - Evelyn Leopold, Reuters

But to answer your call for a contrast: In fact, the standards of proof are, and should be, very different.

Iraq has been called to disarm. That they had illegal weapons was never a question. What's being questioned is whether or not they got rid of them; whether or not they will cooperate with inspections to prove they are rid of them and not getting more. 'Not finding' weapons isn't a negative proof here, because that's not what's under question. The proof is that Iraq refuses to cooperate and refuses to account for weapons we know they have. Because that is what is being asked for.

On the other hand, no such demand has been made to the planet about global warming. We don't know it once was global warming and it has to prove to us it's stopped. The situation is the opposite: we have no reason to believe it's global warming, so we're looking for it. Because the situation is reversed, so also are the standards of proof.

@PLUGO

02-14-2003, 01:18 PM

Proof? How about holding them in your hands so you can neutralize them: "Inspection teams returned to Iraq's al-Muthanna chemical weapons installation, where they have been destroying artillery shells and neutralizing four plastic containers filled with mustard gas." - Associated Press

Yeah I read about that... good to hear weapon inspectors are doing their job. I hope they'll continue to do so. I'm wishing the U.S. would put as much zeal towards fortifying these inspectors as they are fortifying a looming attack.

Braden

02-14-2003, 01:21 PM

True. But the Catch-22 is that, the only reason Iraq is cooperating now is because of the looming threat from the States.

@PLUGO

02-14-2003, 01:26 PM

I agree...

Who was it that said "speak softly and carry a big stick?"

It just seems to me...(my opinion here :)) lately the U.S. has been either shouting or wining while carring a big stick.

Braden

02-14-2003, 01:45 PM

Yes, I agree. There's alot about the way the Bush administration is handling this that I don't like. But when I compare it to the Clinton administration, I come up smiling...

You have to realize though that what you (and I) find grating about the Bush administrations approach is, no doubt, a carefully considered tactic.

Bush has to whine and shout about what he's doing.

Solving this without open war is dependant entirely on Saddam being scared enough of real war to cooperate with the UN. The more Bush whines and shouts, the more scared Saddam gets: the more likely he'll cooperate with the UN -> the more likely there'll be no war.

Then, if there is a war, the serious 'complication' of the war is potential fighting in Baghdad. The US (et al.) can easily take all of Iraq up to the gates of Baghdad, but the Republican Guard can hold Baghdad. (By which I mean, they can hold it such that there would be horrendous causalties on both sides; and the US cannot bomb, besiege, artillery, or heavy armor strike the city due to the horrendous loss of civilian life and property). At this point, it's kind of a bluff game. So long as the Republican Guard is determined to hold Baghdad, there's nothing the US can do. What they are dependant upon is a) some degree of uprising and resistance against Saddam among the Sunnis in Baghdad, and b) the Republican Guard being so scared of the States that they don't hold their ground. No one knows how likely these things are. But they do know that, the more we shout and whine about war, the more likely they become. This means that it's more likely the war is over quickly, with minimal losses (for both sides; and especially minimum Baghdadi civilian loss).

It's easy just to shout warmonger. The actual situation is much more complex.

@PLUGO

02-14-2003, 02:14 PM

But when I compare it to the Clinton administration, I come up smiling...

Well, to loosely quote BUSH... the world changed on 9/11/2001

I'm no fan of Clinton but when I compare it to the BUSH (Sr) administration, I come up smiling... it could go on.

BUSH (like any other person in power) should be judged by what he Does or does not do. Rather than compaired to what someone else did or didn't do.

Braden

02-14-2003, 02:20 PM

Very true. Which is why I explained why he was doing what he is. ;)

Seriously though, I have real problems with Clinton. I know left-leaning people consider him 'their guy' (opposed to the Bushs and Reagan), but I just don't understand, aside from plain ignorance, how anyone can endorse him. The guy is literally a war criminal. As allready noted, in 8 years of Clinton, we got more troop deployments than in 16 years of the Bushs and Reagan; only he didn't tell anyone about it. That's just harsh. The big lesson that will go down in politics from this is that it's better to not tell your populace what you're doing... and that's pretty unfortunate.

rogue

02-14-2003, 02:27 PM

the world changed on 9/11/2001 Nope, just Americas perception of the world changed. The US has been a target for years, and the same cast of characters has been trying to hit the bullseye. They finally scored on 9/11.

I was lucky enough to hear about Clinton before he started running for president. I was unlucky enough to see him win and then prove all the stories true.

@PLUGO

02-14-2003, 02:44 PM

Well... I assure you I have no fondess for Clinton whatso ever.

He can at least play a pretty mean Sax

rogue

02-14-2003, 02:54 PM

I've heard bagpipers getting hit in the nuts sound better than Clinton of sax.:p

Shah

02-14-2003, 03:00 PM

TibetanKF

I don't know what you then meant by saying that you don't want to learn about Islam. Like I said before it isn't the religion that's bad it's the people. I agree that generalizing will always happen but I hope that as human beings we can grow over these things. As for labeling you a rascist, it comes without saying. If you label the whole of Islam bad (and when someone thinks about Islam they think of Asians) you are being prejudiced. Rascism is essantially prejudism and nothing else.

PS again don't patronize me just because you are older. If you think you have the wisdom of age, then show it or prove it.

ewallace

I'm sorry if I came out the wrong way. (English is the third language I have learned and sometimes the connotations of words get mixed up). When I said they had a right to I didn't mean it was right, but right in their opinions (I think if I were in their shoes I would feel the same... quite likely) And the reason you mentioned to as why they hate US is in my opinion exactly correct.

Laughing Cow

I read your essay and found it interesting. I completely disagree with the Ttank. If "saving the planet" will cost billionares money then so be it. You can not dance by the rich mans tune. That is exactly the kind of fear they want to play us with. Don't let fear and doubt cloud your judgement on what's wrong and what's right.

On Iraq

Seeing as US has the largest stockpiles of chemical, biological and weapons of of mass destruction I don't see how it can tell other's to not have them. Wasn't it in the Bible that: "He who be without seen shall cast the first stone." hmm... I'll leave you with that to think about.

In general

I don't want to anger anyone by my posts just showing you people the matters in a different light. Plus I enjoy the debating as pretty much everyone I know doesn't like America.:p (Don't mean just other Muslims, you nation has built itself quite a bad rep) BTW anyone who is in Finalnd were having an anti-war demo tomorrow at 14 at Rautatientori