Striking on the ground - Which styles?

[Kinjit]

Sorry, another MMA thread:
Which styles do alot of striking on the ground?
I'm a bit bewildered at all the different grappling arts avaible...
As I understand it BJJ tends to be focused at tournament style grappling with little or no striking, apart from the occasional vale tudo class. How about Sambo? Submission Wrestling? The only one I know for sure is Shooto/Pancrase. But I'm thinking of going with BJJ anyway, it seems like a good art to start out with to get some basic ground game. Comments?

[jo]

Never has the myth of ground "fighting" been exposed more than
the recent Ortiz-Shamrock match.

Ortiz is an animal, with crushing elbow smashes that are NOT in
the repetoire of most ground "fighters", I have waited YEARS to
see such effective striking while being in the guard.

Ortiz rules!

[Merryprankster]

Hmmm... You didn't have to wait years. Vovchanchin, Kerr, and Coleman were doing it long before Tito.

And Shamrock is no guard master. Just because you put your legs around somebody's body doesn't mean you know what to do. Royce and Nogueira... now THAT'S good MMA guard play!


And BJJ may or may not emphasize strikes on the ground depending on who you train with. We do a fair share of vale tudo work, defending headbutts, elbows, knees and groin strikes as part of our grappling work.

[Crimson Phoenix]

fukien dog boxing...

[Merryprankster]

you just like saying fukien dog boxing :D

[Crimson Phoenix]

LOL it just sounds too good...
anyway it's a very impressive style as well, and one that seemed to fit the requirements of the topics :)

[Xebsball]

lol you guys :D

back into seriousness on the topic, i always heard of dog boxing but never seen any of it, whats it like?

[Sho]

When mounted, Shamrock tried to be as close as possible to Ortiz, so that Ortiz couldn't execute any clear strikes at him. And Shamrock kept moving all the time to not let Ortiz gain any good advantages - excellent stamina.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
fukien dog boxing...

lol, I knew that one was coming...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kinjit
Sorry, another MMA thread:
Which styles do alot of striking on the ground?
I'm a bit bewildered at all the different grappling arts avaible...
As I understand it BJJ tends to be focused at tournament style grappling with little or no striking, apart from the occasional vale tudo class. How about Sambo? Submission Wrestling? The only one I know for sure is Shooto/Pancrase. But I'm thinking of going with BJJ anyway, it seems like a good art to start out with to get some basic ground game. Comments?

I don't think any of them emphasize strikes, unless you are at a scholl that advocates vale tudo, MMA, etc. Judo, for example has strikes, but since you can't use them in shiai, chances are they won't be emphasized in class.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Royce and Nogueira... now THAT'S good MMA guard play!



Indeed!

[Waidan]

Originally posted by Sho
When mounted, Shamrock tried to be as close as possible to Ortiz, so that Ortiz couldn't execute any clear strikes at him. And Shamrock kept moving all the time to not let Ortiz gain any good advantages - excellent stamina.

Can't say it did him much good!

Well, of course that's not entirely true...a lot of guys wouldn't have lasted a minute with Tito pounding away like that. Overall, Shamrock did a good job of avoiding sustained, savage pounding, but he did get caught a number of times...elbows with extra cheese.

[Kinjit]

Well, there is a Pancrase/Shooto gym here in town that trains vale-tudo style on the ground, including kicking a fallen opponent. So you are saying that it has less to do with any particular style than the focus of the particular gym? I mean, this stuff (kneeing elbowing etc on the ground) has to come from somewhere. Is it just something that evolved out of years of vale-tudo fighting? Btw, yes I have the filipino and indonesian angle covered. :)

[JusticeZero]

Are you asking about striking in wrestling range, or striking in long range from a prone position? I do the latter but not the former.

[Kinjit]

Striking on the ground in grappling range, yes.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kinjit
Well, there is a Pancrase/Shooto gym here in town that trains vale-tudo style on the ground, including kicking a fallen opponent. So you are saying that it has less to do with any particular style than the focus of the particular gym? I mean, this stuff (kneeing elbowing etc on the ground) has to come from somewhere. Is it just something that evolved out of years of vale-tudo fighting? Btw, yes I have the filipino and indonesian angle covered. :)

The style and the gym. BJJ isn't a striking style. However, many bjj guys cross train in things like boxing and kickboxing. Some gyms will combine that with their training. Pancrase and shooto are in the same group as vale tudo - striking and grappling - and the competition format allows for that. I wouldn't say it evolved over time, it's been there, way back since the days of greeks and pankration. But certain formats of competition allow certain techniques. If you only compete in BJJ, why train strikes when you can't use them anyway? That will take away from your game, as that's time you can spend doing what pertains to it. Why have Tyson grapple if it has nothing to do with boxing? . If you like/want to compete in MMA, then you will need striking.

[Kinjit]

Well, as I said before... I am specifically talking about striking techniques on the ground. Not just boxing, muay thai etc... Ofcourse there will be some carry over for a MT guy, but I think employing knees and elbows in grappling range is a separate skill in itself. I mean I'm sure there are specifics to it that needs to be trained and understood. So if these skills aren't something that comes from any particular style, where does it? Hope I'm making sense now...

[Crimson Phoenix]

LOL 7, not my fault, it's Fukien dog boxing, I tell ya'!!

guys, check that book out:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870409247/qid=1044739227/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-0984979-4201563?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

contains lots of nice stuffs, much better than the cover could make you expect...

[Kinjit]

That's cool, it looks similar to Harimau.

[Chang Style Novice]

I can't help but notice the image on the cover is terrible, though. What does the guy on the right think is going to happen when he's facing an opponent with all fours on the ground, and instead of trying to kick his ribs in, he leans back and fires off a kick at where his opponents head might be - if the guy were standing?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kinjit
Well, as I said before... I am specifically talking about striking techniques on the ground. Not just boxing, muay thai etc... Ofcourse there will be some carry over for a MT guy, but I think employing knees and elbows in grappling range is a separate skill in itself. I mean I'm sure there are specifics to it that needs to be trained and understood. So if these skills aren't something that comes from any particular style, where does it? Hope I'm making sense now...

I guess you can say that's one of the evolutions MMA has undergone. since strikes on the ground are allowed, you need to know how - I guess they tried and experimented. It's not inherent to bjj though, as far as I know...

[Crimson Phoenix]

Chhhaaannnnnggggg ------>


contains lots of nice stuffs, much better than the cover could make you expect...

heheheh if you really want to know what it could be, imagine it's just a counter the guy does when anticipating a high kick. He drops and turns and hits...

really, this book is worth a look (especially if you are fan of southern styles), there are one or two things, methods and the likes that are really really nice in it...

plus, finally seeing what the famous FUKIEN DOG BOXING style looks like is worth it, no?? hehehehhe

[Chang Style Novice]

urk. that's what I get for skimming fast.

[KnightSabre]

If you guys want to train in a school that teaches ground striking effectively I would recommend one of Matt Thorntons Straightblast gyms,They cover standup,clinch,take downs and grappling with submissions and striking.

Check out there site at http://www.straightblastgym.com

[Cheese Dog]

Cheese Dog LIKE Fukien Doggy Style!

*pant--pant--pant*